Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[TTTTTsd]

Is it really though?
I've been seeing a lot of these type of shield break "combos" going around, and the shield stun values don't add up to actually being worth more than calling them sub-par frame traps at best. I might be underestimating how fast Doc is here, but I highly doubt DK can't just roll out before the nair even connects.

I'm also not sure Doc wants to be within grab range just to try this.

Eh, maybe not, but if you space his Bair his airspeed is good enough to crossup Nair afterwards anyways (even at max distance).

He just has better shield pressure with aerials than Mario does in terms of raw numerics is my larger point.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So as everyone knows Doc's Bair is really good.

This is a pretty viable setup that only requires you hit a fullhop Bair. Doesn't even need a ****ing sweetspot Nair.
ROFLLLL THIS CHANGE (should probably be reverted but hey)

oooook... wow. There are going to be some crazy shieldbreak combos coming Very soon.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'm just looking forward to the wacky BS that will probably be able to pull off now. With how flimsy shields are in this game compared to the past Smash games, I feel like it was the intention of the developers to make shield breaks a regular part of gameplay and these changes could make SSB4 that much more exciting to watch.

 

[Jaguar360]

Is it really though?
I've been seeing a lot of these type of shield break "combos" going around, and the shield stun values don't add up to actually being worth more than calling them sub-par frame traps at best. I might be underestimating how fast Doc is here, but I highly doubt DK can't just roll out before the nair even connects.

I'm also not sure Doc wants to be within grab range just to try this.

I mean, N-air is frame 3 and only gets stronger as it comes out. I wouldn't be surprised if DK wasn't able to roll away or just got hit trying to. That said, if DK isn't able to roll away, dropping shield would only cost him 5-8% (N-air) or 13% (SJP) rather than getting his shield broken.

 

[Thinkaman]

There's no way that Doc blockstring is real. The numbers just don't work.

 

[TTTTTsd]

There's no way that Doc blockstring is real. The numbers just don't work.

Went and tested and can confirm. However Fullhop Bair is actually really good for pressure strings that AREN'T blockstrings but ARE mixups rather so this testing didn't go unrewarded!

 

[Mario766]

There's no way that Doc blockstring is real. The numbers just don't work.

Pretty much all these blockstrings aren't real, or they ARE but require super extreme circumstances that they would never get used, like Sol was learning Fully Charged Downward F-Smash into side-b shield break that would 'punish neutral get-up'. I guess if people get super lazy and neutral get-up when Mac is charging a F-Smash LOL.

 

[C0rvus]

If we know what triggers the glitch, and it is something that can be avoided with a bit of elbow grease, then what reason do we have to ban the character? Yes it is stupid and it shouldn't be there, bit it's not the only stupid thing in the game. It's part of the matchup and very well may not be relevant except against some characters. Play around it, don't tell every Diddy player to go light someplace until Nintendo chokes out another patch. Did we ban Pac Man because he had glitches? Come on.

 

[PND]

Trying to grab while getting hit out of a multihit move is what sets up the glitch. This isn't exactly a Black Hole glitch to set up, this is something that may happen on accident multiple times a stock.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I hear that simply hitting Diddy's shield again undoes the glitch.

Still needs a hotfix ASAP.

 

[C0rvus]

Ideally, Nintendo will go "Oh we messed up." and put out a fix soon.

But I don't foresee it happening tbh. This is Nintendo we're talking about. They don't exactly have a history or good patching habits. Although I recall when Zelda Skyward Sword launched with some sort of save glitch, they patched it. That was a Wii game. SO anything is possible really. But this isn't of the same magnitude imo.

Do we have people testing what moves activate it and such? Seems like a good idea.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Ideally, Nintendo will go "Oh we messed up." and put out a fix soon.

But I don't foresee it happening tbh. This is Nintendo we're talking about. They don't exactly have a history or good patching habits. Although I recall when Zelda Skyward Sword launched with some sort of save glitch, they patched it. That was a Wii game. SO anything is possible really. But this isn't of the same magnitude imo.

Do we have people testing what moves activate it and such? Seems like a good idea.

They've been fairly good about patching Smash 4 glitches tbh, at least major ones (and this is certainly major). Not like "within a day" or anything, so we probably shouldn't expect a fix for a week at least, but still.

 

[LancerStaff]

If we know what triggers the glitch, and it is something that can be avoided with a bit of elbow grease, then what reason do we have to ban the character? Yes it is stupid and it shouldn't be there, bit it's not the only stupid thing in the game. It's part of the matchup and very well may not be relevant except against some characters. Play around it, don't tell every Diddy player to go light someplace until Nintendo chokes out another patch. Did we ban Pac Man because he had glitches? Come on.

Diddy wrecks any character who has to approach with multihit moves. Any Joe Smhoe could just counterpick to him if he's going against a Pit and win... You're literally taking away half his options. Stuff like "X vs Y has a hard to set up infinite" or the order tackle glitch require the opponent to be physically stupid in order to activate them, this punishes the character for existing. It's a completely different situation.

...Hm, well actually I'm not sure about something. Does Diddy need to interrupt his shield or attempt to interrupt his shield?

I hear that simply hitting Diddy's shield again undoes the glitch.

Still needs a hotfix ASAP.

That would be better, but that's still something we can't allow.

Ideally, Nintendo will go "Oh we messed up." and put out a fix soon.

But I don't foresee it happening tbh. This is Nintendo we're talking about. They don't exactly have a history or good patching habits. Although I recall when Zelda Skyward Sword launched with some sort of save glitch, they patched it. That was a Wii game. SO anything is possible really. But this isn't of the same magnitude imo.

Do we have people testing what moves activate it and such? Seems like a good idea.

Uh, in SSB3D there was a glitch that would get Peach players banned from online play that got fixed a day later. I give it three days tops before it's fixed.

 

[Vipermoon]

D'ron and EE decided to come. They'll probably be commentating.

 

[Zionaze]

Socal is debating whether or not they should 1: "ban" diddy.
2: restart game with same % and stock
3: lose a stock
4: stop game and undo glitch by hitting sheild again.

So far i can see #4 being a realistic rule that'll be inplemented until it gets patched out. #1 seems harsh but theres only like 3 diddykongs in socal and they themselves brought it up.

What r yall opinions and solutions you can think of?

 

[C0rvus]

Socal is debating whether or not they should 1: "ban" diddy.
2: restart game with same % and stock
3: lose a stock
4: stop game and undo glitch by hitting sheild again.

So far i can see #4 being a realistic rule that'll be inplemented until it gets patched out. #1 seems harsh but theres only like 3 diddykongs in socal and they themselves brought it up.

What r yall opinions and solutions you can think of?

Why isn't "Just play the game" an option?

 

[DunnoBro]

Ideally, Nintendo will go "Oh we messed up." and put out a fix soon.

That's what we said about duck hunt's smashes.

Yet here we are, with the worst set of smashes in the game. Unable to even lab the moves right because they do double damage in training mode

 

[Mario766]

Why isn't "Just play the game" an option?

Because being unable to be grabbed is game breaking.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Because being unable to be grabbed is game breaking.

Depends on the character.

For example fox doesn't need to rely on grabs since he get's very little reward off of a throw. So this really doesn't mean much to us fox mains. However most character's rely on getting throws to startup combo's some even use them for 50/50 kill confirms and there's also kill throws to consider.


regardless like I said before. This needs to be fixed

 

[ぱみゅ]

Because being unable to be grabbed is game breaking.

Are you completely aware that hitting Diddy's shield resets the glitch, right?
It is not a "simply switch to Diddy and abuse the glitch to win" kind of deal.
Important to a degree I guess, but not utterly degenerating.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Are you completely aware that hitting Diddy's shield resets the glitch, right?
It is not a "simply switch to Diddy and abuse the glitch to win" kind of deal.
Important to a degree I guess, but not utterly degenerating.

At the same time would you want to lose a match because this glitch happened?

Diddy should probably be sidelined until its fixed. Which thankfully should only be a few days as long as Nintendo has seen it and can figure out the coding side quickly.

 

[Quickhero]

At the same time would you want to lose a match because this glitch happened?

Diddy should probably be sidelined until its fixed. Which thankfully should only be a few days as long as Nintendo has seen it and can figure out the coding side quickly.

Well, TO BE FAIR, how will Nintendo know that Diddy has this glitch if Diddy is just banned? The whole pause and shield thing seems to be the best approach imho, but I guess if Diddy just gets banned altogether, I suggest for the glitch to be shown during control checking or something like that in streams.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well, TO BE FAIR, how will Nintendo know that Diddy has this glitch if Diddy is just banned? The whole pause and shield thing seems to be the best approach imho, but I guess if Diddy just gets banned altogether, I suggest for the glitch to be shown during control checking or something like that in streams.

Already multiple videos on youtube about it.

It will circulate just fine.

 

[Mario766]

Are you completely aware that hitting Diddy's shield resets the glitch, right?
It is not a "simply switch to Diddy and abuse the glitch to win" kind of deal.
Important to a degree I guess, but not utterly degenerating.

I am. Having to stop the match anytime the glitch happens will be frustrating and ruin momentum in matches.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I'm willing to wager that a new patch will come with the smash ballot character

. I think its more then one character. As for another balance patch I'm wondering if this is a set up for characters to get some frame data changes.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I still don't buy the Diddy thing.
At best it can cost a couple matches, but even without a rule about it Diddy has to shield at some point and turn off the glitch, so in the long run I don't see it impacting the metagame that much.

It IS necessary to patch it out because it's an ugly glitch (mirror to Pacman's), but it's not as bad as people think.

 

[LancerStaff]

I still don't buy the Diddy thing.
At best it can cost a couple matches, but even without a rule about it Diddy has to shield at some point and turn off the glitch, so in the long run I don't see it impacting the metagame that much.

It IS necessary to patch it out because it's an ugly glitch (mirror to Pacman's), but it's not as bad as people think.

But then if you shield a multihit move then I imagine you can start it again...

Actually, how sure are we that it needs to be a multihit? And what happens you do it again when you have it already?

 

[Ghostbone]

At the same time would you want to lose a match because this glitch happened?

Diddy should probably be sidelined until its fixed. Which thankfully should only be a few days as long as Nintendo has seen it and can figure out the coding side quickly.

You can whine about losing to the glitch because you didn't realise you can just throw out attacks and diddy can't shield them without losing the glitch, and get diddy banned.

Then how are all the diddy mains going to feel lmao? Because people couldn't even implement simple counterplay for like a week before the glitch is patched.

This glitch doesn't make diddy much better, and it's easily worked around.
Banning him (or introducing stupid pause and fix rules which interrupts the flow of the game + is hard to actually enforce because maybe someone just missed a grab lmao) is such a ridiculous knee jerk reaction and it saddens me that most of the community jumped to it.

Like realistically Diddy gets maybe ONE free OoS punish because you had to attack his shield rather than grab it.
And that assumes you don't have some safe easy way to force him to shield an attack (literally everyone with projectiles, anyone that can space aerials/ground moves)

 

[Radical Larry]

Realistically, the only characters affected by this are the infinite jabbers and quick multi-hit characters. Characters like Link, Ganondorf, Mario, Luigi and Lucas, for example, are completely unaffected by this glitch on Diddy Kong, since they're primarily single-hit characters.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Realistically, the only characters affected by this are the infinite jabbers and quick multi-hit characters. Characters like Link, Ganondorf, Mario, Luigi and Lucas, for example, are completely unaffected by this glitch on Diddy Kong, since they're primarily single-hit characters.

Lucas NAir and DAir though?

 

[Asdioh]

The thing about the glitch is that there's no visual indicator of whether it's "on" or "off." You'll constantly have to ask yourself "Is it ok to grab him, or will I whiff and take a huge punish?" because it's hard to tell when the glitch is active or not. Feel free to not ban Diddy, and not enforce any rules about the glitch, because I'm sure it'll be patched fairly quickly, but I assure you that it's not as simple to combat this glitch in a tournament match as it is in a vacuum.

I think this is clearly more frustrating to deal with than wectoring or Pacman glitches.

 

[Ghostbone]

Lucas NAir and DAir though?

Lucas doesn't rely on grabs much, plus diddy has to purposely get hit by nair (bad idea) to initiate glitch, plus lucas easily resets it by spamming PK fire in neutral

Again, just think about it, not even that good >.>

The thing about the glitch is that there's no visual indicator of whether it's "on" or "off." You'll constantly have to ask yourself "Is it ok to grab him, or will I whiff and take a huge punish?" because it's hard to tell when the glitch is active or not. Feel free to not ban Diddy, and not enforce any rules about the glitch, because I'm sure it'll be patched fairly quickly, but I assure you that it's not as simple to combat this glitch in a tournament match as it is in a vacuum.

I think this is clearly more frustrating to deal with than wectoring or Pacman glitches.

Did I hit Diddy's shield, then he got hit by another hitbox from the same move?
If the answer is yes, glitch activated, if not, glitch inactive. Shouldn't be that hard to keep track of.

Again, stop whining about how hard it is to deal with without thinking, it's a lot more unfair to ban a character over a beatable glitch than for him to have the glitch.

 

[Smog Frog]

he was being vague about it. he probably meant how those moves benefit from the shield changes. which they do, alot.

 

[JesterJaded]

Lucas NAir and DAir though?

^ This bro has a point, Lucas mains will be cross-upping like gymnastic spider monkeys now.

 

[Ffamran]

This was probably posted before, but goddamn, Ryu's looking mighty dangerous. Poor little Jigglypuffs that will have to fight the Ryu army... Please note the disclaimer in the beginning of the video: "These can be escaped with a quick shield drop, but if you're quick enough you can make them stay".

 

[Radical Larry]

About the Diddy glitch with Lucas' N-Air and D-Air, what Shaya said was true, Diddy would NEED to reset with shield or risk high PK Fire punishes. Plus, D-Air with Lucas doesn't hit like a true multi-hit move would in a sense that it doesn't have one hitbox hit one frame after another; it's really hard to use against a grounded Diddy. Same thing happens with Little Mac's N-Air; not fast enough to activate it.

Also, this glitch by no means is broken. This is because since Diddy needs to shield opponents attacks, once he's shielded, it resets, thus allowing opponents to freely hit him with grabs and throws once more. So this glitch, like the Samus Infinite and Trampoline stuff isn't broken.

 

[-RedX-]

People are exaggerating way too hard on the shield stun changes in these videos.
Do you see how tremendous some of those gaps are? Some of them strings could have been done quicker with smaller gaps but still...

 

[Ffamran]

People are exaggerating way too hard on the shield stun changes in these videos.
Do you see how tremendous some of those gaps are? Some of them strings could have been done quicker with smaller gaps but still...

Hence the disclaimer: "These can be escaped with a quick shield drop, but if you're quick enough you can make them stay."

They're essentially "optimal" setups for shield breaks. Assuming a person does not know about them or doesn't react in time, they're getting a shield broken. There are still people who just stand there after something happens with ton of time for punishment not just from their opponent, but them too. It's like two deer caught in headlights. The time when Trela broke that Jigglypuff players like 9 times? That Jigglypuff probably had no idea how Collarbone Breaker worked or how to combat it. There is no exaggeration, but the two showing what Ryu can do to a shield in 1.1.1. The Luigi still has combos from D-throw video posted yesterday just proves one, Luigi can't true combo as insane anymore out of D-throw and two, Luigi's still got game. The idea that one change like that can automatically destroy a character is ridiculous. That move has to be beyond broken to affect a character severely if nerfed and even then, it has to be nerfed severely in some way. Case in point: Brawl Falco's Blaster vs. Smash 4 Falco's Blaster. Off the top of my head of beyond broken moves in Smash 4... Nope, ain't got one. Diddy's Uair was broken, but it was nowhere near the kind of **** in Melee and Brawl.

I guess the main issue would be semantics. Combos for many have to be "true" or inescapable or difficult to escape. For characters who can combo, but not true, they're usually regarded as trash and not combo characters. The irony when outside of Luigi, no character can true combo all the time. Hell, even Luigi had to 50/50 from time to time between killing with a Cyclone or a Bair. People end up calling those "strings" or even not combos and considered nothing meritable about the character. Also ironic when people hyped up patch 1.1.0 DK when he only has like 2-hit combos. This, compounded by an obsession with D-throw combos meaning any throws that setup or combo that isn't D-throw is somehow magically irrelevant. Remember Greninja's U-throw combo being regarded as nothing because he didn't have a D-throw combo? It's frankly very stupid. And now Greninja has somewhat of a D-throw combo, but people still don't give a damn about the tongue-scarfed frog.

 

[Patriot Duck]

Okay I'd like to call attention to this abomination right here. (Not my video).

All it took was one down tilt to bring Mario's shield into Pound's shield break range. That is potent.

Edit: Is it confirmed that shield health is unchanged? I have doubts that one down tilt and one pound would have done the trick before the patch.

 

[HeroMystic]

Hence the disclaimer: "These can be escaped with a quick shield drop, but if you're quick enough you can make them stay."

The big thing to take away from this is these are now legit setups because shield pressure is more prevalent. It's another layer of mindgames being added into the meta.