People are exagerating things slightly. In order to get a guaranteed grab out of a Zair on shield you'd need to have a +12 frame advantage against OoS options at least. If you hit Zair such that it hits the shield on the last frame that Toon is airborne at best Toon has a +4 frame advantage on shield-
drop due to the minimal amount of frames required for the shield to be held up, and if not for that you'd simply have a +3 frame advantage. What this means is that against OoS options we are still at a disadvantage, of -4 frames. So, lol, no, we don't get a guaranteed anything off Zair up close. The patch just makes it so some moves are no longer as able to punish us OoS anymore if we miss-space Zair, but I wouldn't over-state this advantage at all.
What you should be focusing on is things like projectiles being slightly more irritating due to people being stuck in shield slightly longer if they don't powershield, or Fair on shield being (far) less punishable. What you should be focusing on is the fact that our slow OoS options just got comparatively slower, so we'll want to try harder to avoid situations where we are forced to shield, otherwise make sure we power-shield.
Edit:
Also, for the record, Nair (used such that it hits on the last frame of your air-time) is a +1 frame advantage on shield-drop, and a -6 on anything OoS.
Fair used in the same way is -2 against shield-drop and -9 against OoS options.
Boomerang used right up close is a 0 frame advantage on shield-drop (take away 7 frames for moves OoS, so -7). Obviously this means that if used further away such that the boomerang hits the shield further along in the throw animation, you'll get a better frame advantage.
Returning boomerang makes it so the opponent can't act out of a shield drop for 15 frames and so they can't use an OoS option for 8 frames.
Arrow up close is a -8 on shield-drop. See boomerang.
Bomb is tough to test because it all depends on the context. We'll do a few contexts.
If you stand right in front of them and throw the bomb at their shield then they can act immediately OoS. If instead they shield drop then they'll have to wait 7 frames, in which case you're looking at a -6. Obviously this is right up close though, and distance = more frame advantage.
So let's suppose that you're standing in front of them, you FH and throw the bomb down on the first frame you are airborne (barely missing the JC) (and yes it has to be a FH otherwise the blast will hit you). The bomb misses their shield, hits the ground and the blast hits their shield (presumably doing 8% in terms of shield damage). You'd be looking at roughly a 10 frame advantage on shield-drop and a 3 frame advantage on anything OoS. Thoroughly unpunishable.
One more. Yeah actually, how about if the timed explosion hits you? How many frames would it take to do anything? It takes 16 frames to do something out of shield-drop, so that's 9 frames to do something OoS.
I'll do one more. There's no point in finding out what the frame advantage is for a standard throw on the ground that explodes near a shield because it would be huge, so instead I'll just find out how long the opponent would be stuck in shield from the moment of the explosion. Standard throw does 6% while smash throw does 7%. I'll do both.
Standard throw makes it so the opponent can't do anything out of a shield-drop for 17 frames meaning they can do an OoS option after 10 frames. And smash throw is 18 frames and 11 frames respectively.
And because I just got an idea, if you smash throw a bomb up, and then it comes back down and hits the ground beside someone shielding, they will be unable to do anything out of a shield drop for 19 frames, meaning they won't be able to do any OoS options for 12 frames
meaning, if you take into consideration the fact that spotdodge is invulnerable on frame 3, meaning that at best they'll be invulnerable on frame 15 after the bomb hits, and if you consider that grab is first active on frame 12, trying to grab people that shield falling bombs is certainly possible.
Edit 2: You know what, I'm in a testing mood, and I want to check something.
Simple question, what would be required to keep an opponent in their shield against their will between a bomb hitting the ground next to them and Toon following up with an aerial?
I'll start with a SH, bomb throw down at the peak of the jump followed by a Nair, and see if that works.
Holy **** it worked... That's awesome.
Edit 3: So the first hit of Nair is 1 frame off keeping the opponent in their shield before the second hit of Nair, such that it will actually work if you somehow manage to hit their shield with the 7th frame hitbox of Nair (which hits first on frame 6). Essentially then, if you hit with the hitbox that comes out on the 6th frame, they'd have two options: hold shield and take the second hit to their shield, or get hit by it. There is literally no other choice. Which of course has me thinking. Is it possible to set up a bomb to double hit Nair on shield such that the bomb to Nair is still guaranteed? I'm mostly worried about whether I'd have enough time because when I got the Bomb to Nair from a SH, the Nair hit came out just before I landed so obviously not enough time for the second hit, but if I start adjusting the timing of the bomb throw such that I throw it down earlier, it might not then keep the opponent in shield because it is thrown closer to the ground i.e. less frame advantage. I might have to resort to a FH approach, but we'll see.
Nope, it works from a SH. This is sick.
[For the record, the second hit of Nair gives the same 1 frame advantage on shield-drop and -6 on OoS option that the first hit does despite the fact that it does slightly less damage.]
The bomb to double Nair does 2/3 shield damage, so if the opponent's shield is lowish, you can run up, SH bomb down throw, continue to drift into them and buffer a Nair, and if they shield the bomb, they will be forced against their will to shield the first hit of Nair, at which point they will have two options and two options only: either get hit by the second hit of Nair (and leave with their shield even further depleted), or get their shield broken. Sickness.
Edit: See this post
http://smashboards.com/threads/trea...h-lab-and-at-list.380910/page-7#post-20234176 for more detail.
in the upper pantheon quite yet. Maybe. I guess Shocking Cape and Scalding FLUDD can push him just over that edge.
