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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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momochuu

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So yall know Greninja is top tier now right?
cant tell if serious but, not yet. he's very good, but not top tier. too bad america will never realize this because laziness. he's been tearing up japan and europe lately.

Pika is fine. Fox and Sheik just got better since we can actually hit their shields while they don't butcher ours any harder than they did before.
sheik is still a hilarious bad matchup to the point where i don't even think its winnable. you literally cannot touch her shield and her fair completely kills greninja's neutral. i think the only saving grace is greninja's powerful kill moves and his shadow sneak hitstun cancel.
 

Rizen

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If you hit with only the explosion and not the bomb itself, it deals more damage, thus meaning more hitlag and hitstun, and more shield damage, shieldlag, and shieldstun if it hits a shield. As such, hitting with only the explosion is advantageous to Link/Toon Link.
Hitting with only the explosion means you have to space far enough that the explosion doesn't hit Link/TL too. The opponent can DI away during the hitstun. To combo with bombs the closer the better, except for throwing a bomb down, damage depending.
 

bc1910

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cant tell if serious but, not yet. he's very good, but not top tier. too bad america will never realize this because laziness. he's been tearing up japan and europe lately.



sheik is still a hilarious bad matchup to the point where i don't even think its winnable. you literally cannot touch her shield and her fair completely kills greninja's neutral. i think the only saving grace is greninja's powerful kill moves and his shadow sneak hitstun cancel.
She's starting to feel better to me. Like, we have a winnable shot. 65:35 perhaps. I have made it my personal mission to learn this MU inside out though.

We can definitely touch her shield with Nair, Fair and Ftilt. The numbers are there now. Her own Fair stuffing our moves during their startup, and just needles in general are the biggest issues in this MU as you pointed out though.
 
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momochuu

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i always thought it was 65:35 from the start. can she not punish nair on shield? i don't know sheik's frame data that well.
 
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Apeirohaon

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I think Greninja's nair is -4, that's definitely not punishable for sheik if Greninja times it well (sheik's jumpsquat alone is 4 frames, and grab is f6, though I'm not sure if it outranges nair or not)
 

bc1910

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If you hit with only the explosion and not the bomb itself, it deals more damage, thus meaning more hitlag and hitstun, and more shield damage, shieldlag, and shieldstun if it hits a shield. As such, hitting with only the explosion is advantageous to Link/Toon Link.
How does the bomb actually behave on shield? It's just occured to me that on hit the bomb will explode but since on shield it won't, there must be some trickery going on with the shieldstun it causes.

i always thought it was 65:35 from the start. can she not punish nair on shield? i don't know sheik's frame data that well.
I honestly thought it was worse than 65:35 for a time. I could still be being a bit negative, with practice I can see it approaching 60:40. And no, AFAIK she can't punish Nair on shield any more. Sheik's fastest OoS option is her f6 grab, so with Nair being -4 we have time to spotdodge now. We can also Fair her shield and escape punishment if we land outside her standing grab range.
 

momochuu

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i see. i was probably messing up then. i was playing a sheik last night and kept getting shield grabbed into bouncing fish after trying to nair her shield for some kind of pressure. good to know that move at least can keep her somewhat honest now.
 

Megamang

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Really tho, i cant see any way ike loses on this patch. Tougher PS means projectiles could be annoying, but the shield lock makes most projectiles on the whole less safe. His OOS doesnt seem strong enough to call that a loss overall. Am i missing something? Did others simply gain more?
 

Tri Knight

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Bombs are not good with Toon Link. His range of throwing bombs are just as bad as Peach's Turnip range. Link on the other hand has more range and power to his Bombs, and even more combo and kill confirm capability.

Toon Link just has the better ground mobility and air mobility (though his air mobility is not by much).
This is wrong.

Toon can kill on a bomb to Fair/Uair at kill percents. He also combos with that same string from low% and up. His mobility helps him do that. Toon Link's meta revolves around Bombs so to say he's not good with bombs is just flat out wrong.

Watch a video of high tier TL play and you'll see how dangerous the bomb can be.
 
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Gamesfreak13563

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This is wrong.

Toon can kill on a bomb to Fair/Uair at kill percents. He also combos with that same string from low% and up. His mobility helps him do that. Toon Link's meta revolves around Bombs so to say he's not good with bombs is just flat out wrong.

Watch a video of high tier TL play and you'll see how dangerous the bomb can be.
I agree. The one thing I know for certain in the Link v. TL discussion is that Toon Link's bombs are just universally better for his kit.

I think Link and Toon Link are pretty even tbh, they just have different playstyles. Link might need a small mobility buff to reach TL's slightly higher level though.
 
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Thinkaman

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I confess ignorance as to Ike--he's at this point probably the single Smash 4 character I've seen the least.

I don't think I've ever played a bonafide Ike main in Smash 4, ever.
 

Tri Knight

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I agree. The one thing I know for certain in the Link v. TL discussion is that Toon Link's bombs are just universally better for his kit.

I think Link and Toon Link are pretty even tbh, they just have different playstyles. Link might need a small mobility buff to reach TL's slightly higher level though.
Overall, Toon Link is better than Link. I would actually argue that Link's CQC is better exclusively in the MU due to the length of Link's sword, but in this MU, a CQC based battle is highly unlikely. Toon Link has better projectiles and makes better use of his bombs as well as the ability to weave in and out of Link's. Against all the other characters Toon Link is nothing to ignore, trust me. He's got a few great Reps proving his worth.

A mobility buff probably would help Link in every match up honestly.
 

Blobface

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All of the Ikes are in the winners side so far for phase 2, though San in in the same pool as Zero now. Ryuga got Pink Flesh, Ryo got Vinnie.
Pink Flesh
Ew.

Overall it's really hard to place Ganon in this patch.

Ganon has trash CQC, and that means he has trash OoS too. Higher shieldstun is going to exasperate this issue even more, probably disproportionately in his already-bad matchups.

Meanwhile, the shieldstun changes made B-air and F-air go from "eh, kind of safe" to "safe", and made U-smash positive on shield drop (lolwat). Aerial Wizkick now links both the dive and the quake for a grand total of 40-45 shield damage, making shield breaks a legit threat against shorter characters. If your shield has taken any damage, you can't shield against aerial Ganon. Unfortunately it doesn't work nearly as well on bigger characters who have a tendency to get shieldpoked by Quake a lot, but hey, free hits are free hits;

and that's not even starting on Ganon's N-air which is basically a completely different move altogether.

N-air now has a hitbox that pops people slightly off the ground, right around his ankle where the air burst appears. This consistently leads to grabs at lower %'s and confirms into U-air at kill %'s. Ganon is now Guaranteed to get 30 damage off of every low % grab with D-throw --> N-air, which also sets up for Dash Attack, Flame Choke, U-air, basically anything you want; and now, even Ganon's N-air is an A-Grade kill option.

It's honestly baffling to me that Ganon has top-tier attacks on almost every button but still hovers around the "borderline viable" just because of a bad jab and grab (Up-B and Neutral B aren't the best either, but Up-B really isn't as bad as people think and N-B has never been important for Ganon to begin with).


Also, you better be bloody grateful to based Sakurai for Ganon not having SHAC D-air. With the current physics SHAC D-air would be neutral on block.
 

Nobie

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I might be getting the math on this wrong, but:

Mega Man's general projectile game was weakened a bit by the patch due to a host of sub-1.0 hitlag modifiers, but the core component of that arsenal, pellets, looks to be buffed significantly.

The big thing is that Mega Man's pellets used to have 1 frame of shieldstun and possibly remove shieldlock, and now it has 2-3 depending on staleness. While the overlapping of shield lock and shield stun now seems like it'd make it less of an issue, now powershielding has less direct use because a powershielded pellet has pretty much the same recovery as a regular shield.
 

Thinkaman

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I'm really hung up on this premise that Zelda toe on a late shield is unconditionally safe. (As a high hitlag 20% aerial that is dependent on landing lag and not dodge-able on reaction, no move in the game changed in practical safety as much as Zelda fair/bair. There is no debate.) This seems like a pretty big deal for Zelda to me, given her limitations. The idea of Zelda doing ANYTHING safe is a paradigm shift of some sort.

Still sad about Phantom max charge not being a blockstring... Every patch they buff Phantom even more, yet perpetually leave it as an almost really amazing move that actually just sucks.

Also Blobface nailed Ganon.
 

JamietheAuraUser

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I'm really hung up on this premise that Zelda toe on a late shield is unconditionally safe. (As a high hitlag 20% aerial that is dependent on landing lag and not dodge-able on reaction, no move in the game changed in practical safety as much as Zelda fair/bair. There is no debate.) This seems like a pretty big deal for Zelda to me, given her limitations. The idea of Zelda doing ANYTHING safe is a paradigm shift of some sort.

Still sad about Phantom max charge not being a blockstring... Every patch they buff Phantom even more, yet perpetually leave it as an almost really amazing move that actually just sucks.

Also Blobface nailed Ganon.
Sweetspot on Zelda FAir/BAir isn't even on the toe in Smash 4 though is it? Sweetspot is somewhere random in the middle of her leg from what I can tell.
 

Nobie

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Ew.

Overall it's really hard to place Ganon in this patch.

Ganon has trash CQC, and that means he has trash OoS too. Higher shieldstun is going to exasperate this issue even more, probably disproportionately in his already-bad matchups.

Meanwhile, the shieldstun changes made B-air and F-air go from "eh, kind of safe" to "safe", and made U-smash positive on shield drop (lolwat). Aerial Wizkick now links both the dive and the quake for a grand total of 40-45 shield damage, making shield breaks a legit threat against shorter characters. If your shield has taken any damage, you can't shield against aerial Ganon. Unfortunately it doesn't work nearly as well on bigger characters who have a tendency to get shieldpoked by Quake a lot, but hey, free hits are free hits;

and that's not even starting on Ganon's N-air which is basically a completely different move altogether.

N-air now has a hitbox that pops people slightly off the ground, right around his ankle where the air burst appears. This consistently leads to grabs at lower %'s and confirms into U-air at kill %'s. Ganon is now Guaranteed to get 30 damage off of every low % grab with D-throw --> N-air, which also sets up for Dash Attack, Flame Choke, U-air, basically anything you want; and now, even Ganon's N-air is an A-Grade kill option.

It's honestly baffling to me that Ganon has top-tier attacks on almost every button but still hovers around the "borderline viable" just because of a bad jab and grab (Up-B and Neutral B aren't the best either, but Up-B really isn't as bad as people think and N-B has never been important for Ganon to begin with).


Also, you better be bloody grateful to based Sakurai for Ganon not having SHAC D-air. With the current physics SHAC D-air would be neutral on block.
I'm looking forward to seeing the Ganon vs. Yoshi matchup. Yoshi has the mobility and neutral but lacks kill setups, Ganon has bad neutral but gross punishes. Also, Yoshi is the character in the game most vulnerable to shield breaks because shield poking is impossible.
 

Mario766

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I confess ignorance as to Ike--he's at this point probably the single Smash 4 character I've seen the least.

I don't think I've ever played a bonafide Ike main in Smash 4, ever.
They are very far away from each other.

At least people will watch 3 Ikes in Winners at Big House.
 
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Gawain

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In regards to Thinkaman's tier list, I'm a bit confused as to why Ike is placed so low. I won't try to pretend that I know all his frame data and how it clashes with others, but last patch most everyone put him in high-mid or even low-high, beating out the other FE characters (though some argued Roy was better).

Now, not only is he beneath the other FE characters, but he's also in the bottom 15? People on the Ike boards seem to think the shield changes and such benefit Ike, and even if they actually hinder him, would it really be by such a huge margin compared to the others?
Why should his tier list matter more than yours? Anyone can look up frame data with the right tools, doesn't make their opinion any better. Personal annoyance here, frame data is immensely overrated. You can SEE how it applies in the game. You don't need a bunch of numbers to tell you that Sheik/Mario/whatever is better than someone else in some field. There are too many variables in a game of smash in terms of where your opponent can be when you hit or whiff for frame data to hold that much weight. There is no way Ike is that low, and certainly not below Marth. I have plenty of issues with his list and frankly I'm not going to give it the time of the day because I don't really like tier list discussion, unless a notable top level player is giving it and has good examples to show for it.
 

NegaNixx

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Ah, my Johns are already premade, I'm good lol. My pool also has static Manny as well. It'll be interesting to see how the others fare.
Can't wait to see how that match with Manny goes to be honest. Such an interesting match up.

We were discussing it a lot during 1.1.0 have there been any theoretical changes with the new Patch?
 

Radical Larry

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Hey guys, got another tournament right tomorrow; anyone have any advice at all in the MUs of:

Link, Ganondorf and Ryu vs Meta Knight
Link and Ganondorf vs Olimar
Link, Ganondorf and Ryu vs Wii Fit Trainer

The ones on the left are who I'm using, and the ones on my right are problematic opponents. Any advice against them would be useful for tomorrow. I know that I need to avoid MK's U-Air > Shuttle Loop combo, as well as his D-Throw > U-Smash, but can anyone help me to completely escape U-Air > Shuttle Loop? Is there a way I can make sure I don't get hit continuously?

Should I pick stages that won't let MK kill early and get cheap defensive options (ex. Battlefield)? Because MK is my most problematic character to go against right now, and I need to know anything and EVERYTHING about him more so than the other two.
 

Shaya

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Mechanical Shield Changes 1.1.1

Okay, implicit beneficiaries:

1. Characters with moves greater than 1.25x hit lag modifier
2. Characters with moves with the electric attribute
3. Characters with multi hit spacing/pressure tools (accidental opponent shield drops may be something players liked pre-patch but it was always the receiver's mistake)*
4. Characters which have higher damage values on their spacing/pressure tools in contrast to their ending lag.
5. Characters with higher mobility (especially aerial mobility)
6. Characters with moves that are more easily power shielded

Implicit benefactors (iono, they're giving their comparative viability to others)

1. Characters with moves less than a 1.0x hit lag modifier
2. Characters with multi hit spacing/pressure tools (shield stun now eating up shield lock frames; anything with 3 or more hits never benefits from shield lock anymore)
3. Characters which have lower damage values on their spacing/pressure tools in contrast to their ending lag.
4. Characters which preferred natural out of shield options instead of shield drop options (shield lock never being apart of it): SHIELD GRAB!!!! MORE TIME TO REACT TO ROLLS OR DODGES!!!! ANY CHARACTER WITH A GOOD RISING JUMP FAIR HAVING MORE OPTIONS THAN THE ENTIRETY OF THE CAST OTHERWISE
5. Characters with faster start up/"harder" to power shield actions.

Am I missing something obvious? Probably.

Point 3-A vs Point 2-B is contradictory, but it will vary. In times where shield lock isn't apart of the equation, they're definitely better. However, in cases of 1 frame active hitboxes with 3 frame loops (quite a few), it should almost always work out better, as an opponent would be getting 2 frames of shield lock removed per hit due to 0 shield stun (?), but that's now counter balanced with the +2 base shield stun. I'm not sure how many characters exist who actually are worse off from this unless they had multi hit moves which could not be shield dropped in between (Greninja's shuriken?, Sheik's needles).

Point 5-A vs Point 4-B: shield stun up means that natural out of shield options are worse 100% of the time. This means that the characters which have more mobility to retreat (or longer/disjointed range) are winners as they can be even safer from natural out of shield options, and characters which had to generally shield drop for any of their punishes are "closer" to characters with great grabs or rising aerials. So as shield drop actions are implicitly stronger in contrast to natural out of shield options, the usefulness is scaling with your mobility specs (for the most part, or just what else you can set up in an extra 4 frames; for Link that could mean a bomb pull or whatever).

[Assumption: 1-3 PS window] How do we compare Point 4(A) to Point 3(B)? Sheik's forward air was 1 frame of shield stun prior to this patch, if she maximised shield lock frames she would be getting an extra artificial 7 frames of shield stun. Shield stun overlapping means she is only able to muster three extra frames at best, now 4 → 7 from 1 → 8.
Characters with slower start up moves, hence being "reactable" or a lot more likely to power shield are now doing comparatively better. Not only is power shielding 25% harder than before, shield dropping actions are "better" than before and in scenarios where shield lock will be nullified, they're not as screwed by missing a power shield as they were before. That feeling of "sheik fairs my shield and I can only do something if it's power shielded" is reduced significantly, and isn't as unique an ability within the cast now as it was before.

------

So if you haven't seen the general trend of points and who is better off...
The engine changes have "hit" Sheik harder than most other characters. "Damage" on actions is now more important than before; end lag still is the biggest factor towards things but a high damage move (15%) is doing a lot better off this patch than a 5% move.

Sheik's needles have gone from 0 frames of shield stun to 3 (on fresh; anything else should be 2! late hits should be 2 always), however the hit lag has gone from 5 to 4. I'm not entirely sure of what overlapping produces here, as in the time you experience 4 frames of hit lag, 2 more needles would be hitting you. If shield stun is still being applied through this, then 2 or more needles should always result in no shield lock; while before you would be experiencing 0 stun, 5 frames of hit lag on the final hit and then deal with up to 7 frames of shield lock. Now it should be 4 frames of hit lag, 2 or 3 frames of shield stun and close to 0 frames of shield lock. If my assumptions are correct, you are now getting less screwed by reacting to needles with shielding than you were before (up to 5 frames better).

Sheik has gained 2 to 3 frames safety on her move set, but has had her ability to abuse shield lock better than likely anyone else in the cast reduced.
Unlike nearly every other character in the cast (some exceptions with sub 1.0 hit lag modifiers getting burned and direct nerfs), Sheik gained the least from this patch.
Apparently Rosa is getting the short end of the stick from this too; I'm not entirely mechanically sure how (Luma wouldn't have been dealing much shield stun before anyway? plus has above 1.0 hit lag modifiers?) and then there is Luigi's direct nerfs.

On the "natural out of shield options are nerfed" point; Sheik had the best short hop fair out of shield; one of the only characters in the cast to have one as a viable out of shield option. That being worse now is putting Sheik's punish reliability further in check.

Sheik, Luigi and Rosalina are (or were) the most polarizing characters in the cast. Sheik because of no poor/disadvantaged match ups, Luigi because his simple game plan was 3x as rewarding as anyone else with similar tools, and Rosa due to her walling out ability.

The balance team for Smash4 are.... geniuses... [I think]
 
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Dre89

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Toon Link's mobility make his bombs so much better than Link's that there's really no comparison between them.

Bottom line is that Link is easier to get in on than Toon Link. For campy characters that is crucial.
Link is harder to get in on because his threat range is much larger thanks to enormous grab range. You can get a lot closer to Toon Link without getting punished thanks to his bad range. It makes him really susceptible to burst movements like dash attacks because it's easier to get into that range and he's really jump dependant.
 
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Rizen

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It's kind of weird to compare Link to TL. Playing Link is like driving a hummer and TL is one of the hovercrafts from Diddy Kong Racing.
I agree TL is a little better because his mobility. Their moves are too functionally different to compare for the most part.
 

Locke 06

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I might be getting the math on this wrong, but:

Mega Man's general projectile game was weakened a bit by the patch due to a host of sub-1.0 hitlag modifiers, but the core component of that arsenal, pellets, looks to be buffed significantly.

The big thing is that Mega Man's pellets used to have 1 frame of shieldstun and possibly remove shieldlock, and now it has 2-3 depending on staleness. While the overlapping of shield lock and shield stun now seems like it'd make it less of an issue, now powershielding has less direct use because a powershielded pellet has pretty much the same recovery as a regular shield.
But that's the thing is that Mega Man's pellets used to not remove shield lock. Single pellets were really really good.

Powershielded pellets are better (as powershielding got nerfed) but powershielded pellets were never an issue for Mega. Pellets on a late shield (which would be if you used 2 or 3 pellets on shield) are buffed by a couple frames, which is big. Shield drop>utilt is better than it has been on early shields, which means going for powershield>utilt all the time is the goal, but powershield>utilt is nerfed and shield drop>utilt on late shield is also nerfed (vs multi-hits).

MB is significantly worse, as it was good at abusing shield lock frames (you run in to grab and they can't shield drop>jab. Now they can.) and Fsmash is tons less safe even at full charge.

It's a complex patch. I still think he lost more than he gained, but it might be that I actively abused shield lock frames.

Edit: Oh, also any gain in shield stun is also lessened by a loss in hitlag. Forgot that big part about pellets. The loss in hitlag is why fsmash is stupidly unsafe.

Edit 2: Also, I think the shield stun is now based on base damage and not damage after freshness/staling (found by Shaya in a thread I'm too lazy to link).

Can I just say that extra shield stun in 8 player smash free for all is really really dumb? Especially with equipment. (Competitively, this applies to the doubles format and triples/vip and 4v4.)
 
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viewtifulduck82

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Every time I decide to check this thread out, you guys are always comparing link and toon link lol.

Anyways, have any legit shield breaking combos been found with the new shield stun? That's the aspect I was most excited for in these changes.
 
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adom4

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Hey guys, got another tournament right tomorrow; anyone have any advice at all in the MUs of:

Link, Ganondorf and Ryu vs Meta Knight
Link and Ganondorf vs Olimar
Link, Ganondorf and Ryu vs Wii Fit Trainer

The ones on the left are who I'm using, and the ones on my right are problematic opponents. Any advice against them would be useful for tomorrow. I know that I need to avoid MK's U-Air > Shuttle Loop combo, as well as his D-Throw > U-Smash, but can anyone help me to completely escape U-Air > Shuttle Loop? Is there a way I can make sure I don't get hit continuously?

Should I pick stages that won't let MK kill early and get cheap defensive options (ex. Battlefield)? Because MK is my most problematic character to go against right now, and I need to know anything and EVERYTHING about him more so than the other two.
Ganondorf vs Olimar is Weird.
Olimar has all the tools from keeping Ganondorf out, mostly with grabs so approaching from the ground is extremely difficult.
Also Olimar's damage racking & kill power is extremely good, coupled with relatively safe smash attacks makes it hard punishing them.

But no character in the game is as screwed as much as Olimar from Ganondorf getting in, he's extremely easy to combo/string & juggle, he's very light meaning early KOs, but the biggest thing is how effective flame choke is on Olimar.
Ganondorf gets all the regular follow ups on Olimar (Jab, D-tilt & F-tilt), but Olimar is the only character in the game that gets D-SMASHED out of a choke, it usually KOs him at around 70-80% without rage, he can avoid it with a tech roll but even then his tech roll is rather poor & he's relatively easy to chase.
Don't know much about Wii fit & Meta knight.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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cant tell if serious but, not yet. he's very good, but not top tier. too bad america will never realize this because laziness. he's been tearing up japan and europe lately.
What are you talking about.

Greninja isn't doing **** in europe and he has one player in Japan that acually does stuff.

:059:
 

bc1910

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IDK about tearing up, but istudying just won Avalon X with him, a 72-man Netherlands national.

Eddy got 9th in a huge French/German international.

And we'll see how DBZ7 goes today in London. 200 entrants including Mr. R, istudying is there.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Netherlands minus Mr.r ... 9th in France ... is not really that big a deal tbqh. Not a minor feat but not a strong argument in Greninja's favor either.

:059:
 

Shaya

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Greninja may be doing better on average than the likes of Kirby, but isn't really brushing with the upper middle class crowd of Ike, Peach, Rob... and the gap between those and Greninja is fairly sizable by my perspective.
If I was to pick out another character with just as much of anything, it would [ironically] be Lucario (a character probably more gutted by the WiiU release than him). Maybe Pits would be similar too, but even then I think Pit's seen a lot more global success than Greninja.
 

Radical Larry

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Okay, just a couple hours remain guys, I really do need strategies against Meta Knight with Link, Ganondorf and Ryu. I need to know what to avoid, where to DI and how to keep myself away while still trying to damage the opponent. Any strategies? Tips? Techniques? I need something to help out.
 

bc1910

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I can't say for sure without a complete results breakdown of all characters but I was under the impression that while in NA Greninja is outperformed by Peach, ROB and Ike, on a worldwide scale both Lucario and Greninja have better results than Peach, ROB and probably Ike.

Pit's results seem to have levelled off too. Even in NA, Greninja's weakest region, his and Pit's results are comparable. At a NA regional level, I know that both Greninja and Lucario have better results than him. On a NA national scale, you have Pit as Nairo's secondary and I'm not sure about Earth's results. Worldwide I'm pretty sure Greninja is doing better, don't know about Lucario.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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How does the bomb actually behave on shield? It's just occurred to me that on hit the bomb will explode but since on shield it won't, there must be some trickery going on with the shieldstun it causes.
Bombs are super weird and surprisingly complex, but I'll try to give you the tl;dr version specifically in regards to shields.
From the moment the bomb purposefully leaves your hand it will be trying to detect hurtboxes. I've always referred to this state as being 'active'. Upon detecting a hurtbox the bomb will generate a hitbox as well as disappear on the following frame. In general, upon hitting a shield the bomb does no shield-hitlag/stun and instantly becomes 'inactive' toward the one who shielded it, i.e. it will no longer detect their hurtbox and will then fall to the ground. However there are two exceptions to this rule. If the bomb itself is 'power-shielded' such that the shield comes up and immediately overlaps with the bomb before it can detect any hurtboxes, then it will remain active against the shielder, effectively punishing you for what would otherwise be a good thing. The other exception is where the bomb is z-dropped on the first airborne frame coming out of the jump-squat making it so Zair doesn't come out; if this is done inside a shield, then regardless of when the shield was put up, for some reason the bomb will will remain active after being shielded.

While I'm here, I'd like to say something regarding the seemingly ongoing discussion on Link and Toon.
The vast majority of it is nonsense/false and is at best trivial in relation to the larger and more important picture.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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Pit's results seem to have levelled off too. Even in NA, Greninja's weakest region, his and Pit's results are comparable. At a NA regional level, I know that both Greninja and Lucario have better results than him. On a NA national scale, you have Pit as Nairo's secondary and I'm not sure about Earth's results. Worldwide I'm pretty sure Greninja is doing better, don't know about Lucario.
Earth's results are better than those of any Greninja player out there, including Some.

:059:
 

Vipermoon

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Okay, just a couple hours remain guys, I really do need strategies against Meta Knight with Link, Ganondorf and Ryu. I need to know what to avoid, where to DI and how to keep myself away while still trying to damage the opponent. Any strategies? Tips? Techniques? I need something to help out.
You are being ignored because this does not belong in this thread. Furthermore, these are questions you can ask in-person at the tourney.
 
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