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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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HeavyLobster

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Sonic
Ike
Sheik
Fox

Rosa
Ike
Pika
Ryu

ZSS
Mario
Sonic
Fox

Mario
Rosa
Mario/Sheik (who does Anti use?)
Ike

Winners right now.

Ike is looking pretty viable. His buffed frame data + his range, combos and power. Why is anyone still doubting this character?
Not necessarily applicable going forward because it's an outdated patch. Increased shield stun is probably not going to hurt him significantly since unlike the other heavies he's got enough mobility and a small enough hurtbox for zoning to not be too bad for him and he can better cash in on superior shield safety. Think going forward the patch was either a wash overall or a slight improvement, so I see no reason to treat him as anything other than a solid high tier going forward.
 

Ffamran

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So my Ryu buddy has been labbing Ryu hard with his sparring partner and apparently Collarbone Breaker is now a true block string. You cannot roll out of it after the first hit connects on shield now.

Thoughts?
Isn't this how Collarbone Breaker works in Street Fighter too? It just hits twice and can't be interrupted unless it's whiff punished? My knowledge on SF is really poor, so correct me. I think this might be the same case in Soul Calibur too, but Soul Calibur and Tekken's block system is much more different since they're 3D fighters. Heh, regardless, they're making Smash Ryu even more like Street Fighter Ryu.

I don't think anyone could deny Ike's viability at this point.
Meanwhile in Japan. I don't know what's the situation over there, but the common belief that Japan is more spacing, footsie, zoning-heavy should probably mean good spacing characters like Ike and Marth should thrive in that scene, but nope. Marth at least gets used while Ike seems to be ignored completely for whatever reason. Was it Path of Radiance and/or Radiant Dawn? Was it the whole "hero must be bishonen" which apparently lead to Basch replaced by expendable characters, Vaan and Penolo, in Final Fantasy XII and gender flip version, that Faith Connors from Mirror's Edge and Cammy's appearance in Street Fighter V weren't pretty enough as in they didn't appeal to their tastes. Faith's not supposed to be a pretty face; she's supposed to be a badass traceuse. Cammy's also clearly not freaking Japanese; she's British.

At the same time, none of what I just said has any meaning. Was it France? Yeah, they don't give a damn about using Fox. That's just them. For all we know, Fox is considered mid-tier because nobody uses him. That, however, is a better excuse than arbitrary reasons like in an alternate universe, Xenoblade: Chronicles was the most hated game in the NA, so Shulk is not bottom tier, but completely removed from any discussion, any tier list, and even banned from tournaments. Extreme, but who knows -- the world's insane after all.

Whatever. If anyone wants to doubt any character is viable in whatever way despite bloody results coming in left and right, then they can stay ignorant. It's like do you have a vendetta against this character? What did Ike do? Bringing up Ike's recovery is bad would be like bringing up Diddy, Luigi, Ryu, Ness, or Fox's. Bringing up Ike's slower attack speed would be like bringing up Captain Falcon or even Yoshi and Rosalina. Nobody's claiming Ike is a god slayer which ironically he is, but that's a different story. People are saying he's high tier - anyone saying low expectations is about to get a foot shoved down their throat. It's like saying Peach, Greninja, or Yoshi or what people think happened to Luigi are high tier. So what? They're just under a dominating top tier, but above everyone else. They are more than viable compared to mid-tier and lower. Nobody's insinuating Ike, Greninja, Peach etc. are so damn good. They're just good. End of story.
 

Teshie U

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Ike has decent mobility, he isnt going to get trapped in shield any more than other high tiers.

does anyone know who the people in losers play?

i know there is another ike and another sheik

pit sonic ,metaknight and some diddies

edit if collarbone breaker is a true blockstring now, thats going to be broken. i find that hard to believe
 
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TTTTTsd

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It is a true blockstring. It's been tested. If you're hit with Ryu's Ftilt you're stuck there I believe (people have checked). Unless you PS it.
 
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Megamang

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Collarbone breaker doesnt break a totally full shield, so powershield attempts are fine. Sure, you shouldn't sit in shield, but it was pretty stupid his 'shield breaker' style move was countered by shield techniques.
 

Tri Knight

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It's so crazy to think how much Ike has grown since Brawl. Very happy about this. I'm rooting for Ike winning House
 

Vipermoon

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So my Ryu buddy has been labbing Ryu hard with his sparring partner and apparently Collarbone Breaker is now a true block string. You cannot roll out of it after the first hit connects on shield now.

Thoughts?
We already established that. There is only a two frame difference between hits 1 and 2. Block string confirmed. Welcome to the shield breaker that wasn't nerfed.
 

Charoite

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Mike Kirby wins Larry lurr in semifinals at GXPO Hawaii 2015, forcing Larry to switch to :4zss:, in their second set and winning 2-3, next mike will face DKwill or False
.
 
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Emblem Lord

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A light tilt to Collar bone Breaker will break most shields including all the shields of the perceived top/high tiers. And with the shieldstun changes rapid fire dtilt is a real string. Try to grab and Ryu can blow you up. If you attempt a roll or spot dodge then you will get blown up as well. You need a fast up b with armor or invincibility. This creates a deadly mix-up game for Ryu where simply mashing a button can lead to death for his opponent. Anyone player that can't react to Collarbone Breaker is basically ****ed vs him.

Ok so Sonic doesnt care about this.

But Sheik?

Sheik is very afraid.
 

wedl!!

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I still think it's totally in the realm of possibility that Ryu could actually just murder Sheik.

I still think Peach/Sheik is even so I'm probably not the person to ask about this kind of thing lol
 

Shaya

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A light tilt to Collar bone Breaker will break most shields including all the shields of the perceived top/high tiers. And with the shieldstun changes rapid fire dtilt is a real string. Try to grab and Ryu can blow you up. If you attempt a roll or spot dodge then you will get blown up as well. You need a fast up b with armor or invincibility. This creates a deadly mix-up game for Ryu where simply mashing a button can lead to death for his opponent. Anyone player that can't react to Collarbone Breaker is basically ****ed vs him.

Ok so Sonic doesnt care about this.

But Sheik?

Sheik is very afraid.
What do you have that beats rising air dodge though?
Why would you use a not-clearly-best-defensive-option-in-the-game?~

=)
 
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Nobie

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I never bothered to look at Wario's frame data but holy what his dash attack is his fastest ground move?!
 

Emblem Lord

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I still think it's totally in the realm of possibility that Ryu could actually just murder Sheik.

I still think Peach/Sheik is even so I'm probably not the person to ask about this kind of thing lol
I mean..I was trading blows with Vinnie at a local and I broke his shield twice. And I'm DEF not as good as him. I def dont feel Ryu loses to her badly. If she does win its super close. I think its even right now. She cant ever make a mistake, but Ryu can actually **** up multiple times and live.

I was living till like 140 vs Vinnie and killing him at 90. It was unreal, funny and sad at the same time. He did beat me but only cuz I dropped a confirm to SRK for a kill.
 

Megamang

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Can you explain why you said most shields (are broken by tilt into CB)? I thought every shield had the same health? Does it sometimes poke, or was that a reference to that weird character with the lame laser sword?
 

Ikes

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so how does the increased shield stun effect Wario? does it hurt him or help him? I havent had enough time to test things, been too busy with 3D work and street fighter
 

Emblem Lord

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Oh ****.

Megamang Megamang
"***** YOU GUESSED IT!!!!! Yous right!!!"

What do you have that beats rising air dodge though?
Why would you use a not-clearly-best-defensive-option-in-the-game?~

=)
Put any lingering aerial inside their hurtbox so it hits meaty as they exit intangible frames.
 

Sir Tundra

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So pretty much ryu came from high tier to Uber ridiculous tier.

Amazing how the shield stun changes can improve a character so much.

That being said Emblem Lord Emblem Lord and any other ryu main in this thread heed my words.

These are not words of salt btw. But rather a prediction of what I fear could possibly happen in the future.


Enjoy your ridiculous block string and shield breaking combos while you can. However there will be a time where salty casual players from the terrible fg viewing community will cry tears of salt and beg for ryu to be nerfed. Eventually in about a patch or 2 ryu just might get nerfed. So long as the terrible salty viewing community exist there always be nerf request of top tier characters from around the masses. then again he might not get nerfed who knows. Still though it's sad how spoiled the fighting game community is today thanks to patches.

edit: point is when a characters top tier people will beg that top tier to be nerfed. It happened to most of them. What about sheik,zss,and pikachu you say. Give a few months there hanging with the right crowd.

Btw Emblem Lord Emblem Lord you gotta vid of you breaking vinnies shield? Cause that sure sounds hilarious.
 
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Emblem Lord

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So pretty much ryu came from high tier to Uber ridiculous tier.

Amazing how the shield stun changes can improve a character so much.

That being said Emblem Lord Emblem Lord and any other ryu main in this thread heed my words.

These are not words of salt btw. But rather a prediction of what I fear could possibly happen in the future.


Enjoy your ridiculous block string and shield breaking combos while you can. However there will be a time where salty casual players from the terrible fg viewing community will cry tears of salt and beg for ryu to be nerfed. Eventually in about a patch or 2 ryu just might get nerfed. So long as the terrible salty viewing community exist there always be nerf request of top tier characters from around the masses. then again he might not get nerfed who knows. Still though it's sad how spoiled the fighting game community is today thanks to patches.

edit: point is when a characters top tier people will beg that top tier to be nerfed. It happened to most of them. What about sheik,zss,and pikachu you say. Give a few months there hanging with the right crowd.

Btw Emblem Lord Emblem Lord you gotta vid of you breaking vinnies shield? Cause that sure sounds hilarious.
Nah we played off stream. But there are plenty of vids of me breaking shields.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq0uzP-wabM
 

Browny

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How can people call collarbone breaker a block string when its basically a 1-hit shieldbreaker combo.

Since when is a 100% unavoidable automatic follow up that you literally dont need to press any buttons for it to occur, called a string. You cant cancel it at any time, its one hit.

Its the exact same as a charged shieldbreaker from marth or lucina. Its not a blockstring, it just breaks shields in 1 hit. the end.

I know its just semantics, but lets save blockstring for *actual* block strings?

-EDIT

I guess some people were talking about tilts into ftilt? Sure, save it for that. Not the move by itself though.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Well before it would be a string since it was not true on block. But since its true on hit and block now then yeah its just a natural combo by itself whether they block or not.
 

Ghostbone

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Yea collarbone breaker was the first thing I tested once I learnt the shield mechanics were changed and one of the contributing factors to me thinking Ryu is 3-5th best in the game (along with wtf safe aerials).

You can't really challenge Ryu in the air because he'll trade with you (or just hit you first with his amazing frame data and range) and do twice the amount of damage you do (and he kills you earlier than you kill him...), plus bair is a decently strong kill move.
And you can't deal with Ryu's boxing because of his frame 2 light d-tilt, frame 3 u-tilt that confirm into 20+% combos or kill you at 75 without rage. Can't even shield cos he'll just spam light d-tilt and break your shield with strong f-tilt.
I don't see how you keep Ryu out of boxing range anymore either because a Ryu coming at your from the air just needs to space fair/bair or cross-up nair and now he's in your zone.

We've already seen what Ryu was capable of pre-patch, and he's probably the biggest winner of the shield changes, which makes him into a pretty disgusting character overall now.
 
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Wiimas123

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Ok, for the most part I think this list was spot on. But there's one character who is completely misplaced. :4zelda: Zelda has the potential to be really good if she's in the right hands. Look at Nairo's Zelda. It's pretty frickin good. If people took the time to master her then people would realize she's not the worst. Also, why is she below Palutena and Samus? Neither of them are as good as she is. That's the truth.
 

Ikes

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after testing in the lab every character and their new pressure tools, I might as well predict the tier list in the future
Competitive Tier 1::4sheik::4diddy::4mario::4pikachu::rosalina::4zss::4fox::4ryu:
Competitive Tier 2::4yoshi::4falcon::4luigi::4metaknight::4rob::4ness::4peach::4lucario::4myfriends::4sonic::4villager:
Competitive Tier 2.5::4dk::4greninja::4kirby::4pit::4olimar::4tlink::4pacman::4darkpit::4wario:
Viable Tier 1::4megaman::4robinm::4shulk::4gaw::4falco::4marth::4bowserjr::4feroy::4mii::4wiifitm:
Okay Tier::4lucas::4mewtwo::4bowser::4duckhunt::4dedede:
;_; ::4charizard::4drmario::4zelda::4samus:
Terrible Matchups Bros::4littlemac::4ganondorf::4link:
No idea thanks to the new mechanics::4jigglypuff:
Wario is too low, plain and simple.
 

Routa

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so how does the increased shield stun effect Wario? does it hurt him or help him? I havent had enough time to test things, been too busy with 3D work and street fighter
50/50. It does make Wario's Fair and Nair a bit safer against shield, but nothing special.
 

ARGHETH

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Ok, for the most part I think this list was spot on. But there's one character who is completely misplaced. :4zelda: Zelda has the potential to be really good if she's in the right hands. Look at Nairo's Zelda. It's pretty frickin good. If people took the time to master her then people would realize she's not the worst. Also, why is she below Palutena and Samus? Neither of them are as good as she is. That's the truth.
You'll have to explain this, because pretty much everyone around here puts Zelda as low tier. Also, when's the last time he seriously used Zelda? I'd put her with Lucina on his main list at this point.
 
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Wiimas123

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You'll have to explain this, because pretty much everyone around here puts Zelda as low tier.
K. Zelda is pretty good. She's not near the best. But she's not the worst. She has Amazing recovery, good grabs, a good aerial game, and projectiles. She has reliable kill moves. Her recovery can pretty much recover her no matter what place she's at. Her grabs are good and she can to a combo or a setup with d-throw. Ok Phantom slash and Din's fire near work but they manage. Her aerial game is good with her b-air and f-air. Sure she needs buffs but she is certainly better than Palutena and Samus.
 

Mario766

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Her projectile sucks, her recovery is edgeguard bait because it always hits the same frame. It's a lot easier to beat out Zelda's recovery than Sheik or Palutena's. Her only things going for her is elevator and f-air/b-air which kill if sweetspotted, but it's like sweetspotting Brawl Falcon Knee. Good luck.
 

Evello

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So pretty much ryu came from high tier to Uber ridiculous tier.

Amazing how the shield stun changes can improve a character so much.

That being said Emblem Lord Emblem Lord and any other ryu main in this thread heed my words.

These are not words of salt btw. But rather a prediction of what I fear could possibly happen in the future.


Enjoy your ridiculous block string and shield breaking combos while you can. However there will be a time where salty casual players from the terrible fg viewing community will cry tears of salt and beg for ryu to be nerfed. Eventually in about a patch or 2 ryu just might get nerfed. So long as the terrible salty viewing community exist there always be nerf request of top tier characters from around the masses. then again he might not get nerfed who knows. Still though it's sad how spoiled the fighting game community is today thanks to patches.

edit: point is when a characters top tier people will beg that top tier to be nerfed. It happened to most of them. What about sheik,zss,and pikachu you say. Give a few months there hanging with the right crowd.

Btw Emblem Lord Emblem Lord you gotta vid of you breaking vinnies shield? Cause that sure sounds hilarious.
I wouldn't be too sure. The only characters that have been nerfed really hard so far are Greninja, Diddy, and now Luigi. All have one thing in common; their infamous strategies were easy to pull off online for the average FG player. Playing Ryu honestly takes a lot more skill, practice, and lag-free timing than you can expect from FG. Not saying there weren't amazingly skilled Luigis or Diddys out there too, but the foundation of their brokeness (the hoo-ha and dthrow combos->downB) was easy for unskilled players to spam and difficult to avoid with lag. Due to the complexity of his inputs, I don't think we'll be seeing a whole lot of Ryu dominance online. Thus I doubt Sakurai will feel the need to nerf him unless he gets TRULY ridiculous.

Look again at Sheik; she's had nothing but minor tweaks for several patches despite being the unanimously and globally accepted #1 in the game since the day Diddy got nerfed. Likewise, ZSS's upair->upB combos have also been called broken by many, but are very hard to properly connect online (or even offline). Basically, Sheik, ZSS, and Pika don't get a lot of play online because they require too much finesse for laggy, spammy play. And coincidentally none of them have gotten nerfed significantly. I think Ryu will probably join that lucky club.


On an unrelated note, I'm obviously pleased regarding the new Ike exposure. And I can't help but wonder if the surge of Ike results at BH5 might result in a lot more people picking up Ike a la Meta Knight and Ryu. Ike players have currently benefited from a general lack of matchup knowledge from opponents, and I have a sneaking feeling his results might decline slightly when people start learning about more of the finer points of his footstool combos, his exploitable recovery, and how to stay out of his throw combos. He's still a totally solid character, don't get me wrong, but I've noticed in a lot of high-profile matches like Ryuga vs. ZeRo that Ike's opponents often fall for really stupid stuff once or twice and then bring it back significantly once they catch on to his shenanigans.
 
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bc1910

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The average FG Sheik is getting better, though. And has been for a couple months.

You can almost expect Fthrow BF now whereas before it was a rarity. And it's not really hard for them to jump around spamming aerials which are flat out impossible to punish in lag. They'll struggle to kill you but the main strategies they use are pretty abusive.
 
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UberMadman

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K. Zelda is pretty good. She's not near the best. But she's not the worst. She has Amazing recovery, good grabs, a good aerial game, and projectiles. She has reliable kill moves. Her recovery can pretty much recover her no matter what place she's at. Her grabs are good and she can to a combo or a setup with d-throw. Ok Phantom slash and Din's fire near work but they manage. Her aerial game is good with her b-air and f-air. Sure she needs buffs but she is certainly better than Palutena and Samus.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Zelda is bad. Really bad. She is a combination of frail, slow, and mostly comboless, with really bad projectile game, contrary to what you've said, meaning she excels in no area that is necessary for a character to be good. Din's Fire takes so long to detonate that it usually can be avoided just by dashing past it, and Phantom is as easy to avoid as just jumping over it because Zelda can't cancel it or store charge. She has among the worst aerial and ground speeds in the game, and no safe approach moves to make up for it. In close range combat, she suffers from ridiculously poor frame data, such as a godawful 11 frame jab and 10 frame grab. She has some minor followups off of down throw and down tilt at low percents, but once opponents start getting higher up in percentage her "combos" become basically nonexistant. So to some it up, she is terribly slow to move and act, is bad at close range, is bad at a distance, has limited combos that mostly revolve off of a 10 frame grab, and she dies earlier than most of the cast. And on top of all that, she has a big hurtbox too, so she can't actually crouch to avoid attacks like most other light characters. The only things going for her are fair, bair, and teleport kills. Probably the worst character in the game at the moment.

EDIT: Oh, and if you don't believe me, ask the Zelda forums. They are some of the loudest opponents to Zelda's viability.
 
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Mario766

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Ike's throw combos aren't escapable. If they get grabbed below 80 for like 90 percent of the cast, they are taking an aerial for ~20 percent and they can't do a thing about it. The main things they learn is not to air dodge an up throw at 90-100, and if they are a really fast faller, they get f-air'd at the ledge for a death that they can't do anything about. Even for a region like MI, where Ike is common with Ryuga, people still fall for air dodge read kills, like I got one on Loe1 last month when he has a ton of Ike MU knowledge.
 

Shaya

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Ike is a read heavy character, he's at an interesting spot in terms of viability with a contrasting play style to what normally makes characters good (best option / covering the best option; reactively). The fact that he shares the fastest dash to shield in the game with his general bulkyness and solid mobility is probably his strongest point to his entire kit (obviously his kit had to be good to have these results). Having a dash to shield significantly faster than reaction is an amazing feature for a character to have and it compensates for his slower punish responses as opponents need to preempt responses when Ike is within range.

If for glory anecdotes can be used, then I guess level 9 CPUs can too :p
Unlike most level 9 CPUs who will tend to play passively so they can dodge/power shield things, Ike CPU actually does things to kill you in spots where it isn't just reacting to you, it's throwing a kill-trap in your face that type of play style in tournament doesn't tend to result in much loss if it didn't work out.

-

Oh and zelda mentions: frame safety buffs
Neutral Air Pre 3
Neutral Air Final 2
Forward Air Sweet 9
Forward Air Flub 3
Back Air Sweet 9
Back Air Flub 3
Up Air 5
Down Air Sweet 5
Down Air Sour 3

Down Air is now -7 on fast fall (cool!), sweetspot fair and bair are -10 and -12 on landing respectively; hugeeee safety buff and some of the highest damage aerials you'll ever see.
 

~ Gheb ~

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I don't know where the idea's coming from that people underrate Ike? Nobody in here has ever questioned the fact that he's a good character, it just wasn't [and tbh still isn't] 100% clear to what extent he can compete with the tops. But like, everybody goes "told you Ike is underrated!!!" now when nobody has ever said a bad thing about him in the first place.

So yeah, stop saying Ike is "underrated". Nobody's seeing him as anything other than the respectable character he is.

:059:
 

Spinosaurus

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In here, sure.
Everywhere else? I don't think I've seen anyone realize how good he actually is. It's an anecdote but I still see people constantly underrate him. Let's not forget Japan's opinion of him in particular.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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Who is "Japan"? Everybody in Japan? Or just 4-5 japanese people that decided to make a tier list and put Ike into low tier?

:059:
 

Spinosaurus

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Who is "Japan"? Everybody in Japan? Or just 4-5 japanese people that decided to make a tier list and put Ike into low tier?

:059:
Stop being deliberately obtuse.

Regardless, these tier lists can influence the opinion of others. As an aside, is there even a notable Ike there? I'm not familiar with the scene there, so I'm genuinely curious.
 
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