Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Meru.]

Stop being deliberately obtuse.

Regardless, these tier lists can influence the opinion of others. As an aside, is there even a notable Ike there? I'm not familiar with the scene there, so I'm genuinely curious.

Yes, his name is Ogami, but he doesnt go to tourneys iirc. He's a notable force online though. Other than him there are a few good Ikes.

The tier list everyone is referring to is outdated. As far as I know Ike isn't rated low by most Japanese players.

 

[TriTails]

Offline and online are both very different experiences and I wouldn't count much on that.

*Gets launched by a Charge Shot in an attempt to PS because lag*

 

[Jamurai]

Ok, for the most part I think this list was spot on. But there's one character who is completely misplaced. Zelda has the potential to be really good if she's in the right hands. Look at Nairo's Zelda. It's pretty frickin good. If people took the time to master her then people would realize she's not the worst. Also, why is she below Palutena and Samus? Neither of them are as good as she is. That's the truth.

I would look for Nairo playing Zelda in tournament but I have a feeling that I won't find much. Sure Nairo's Zelda is pretty good, I'm sure his Jigglypuff is pretty good as well, because he's one of the best players in the world. Doesn't mean much about the character's viability when he never pulls her out when anything at all is on the line (ie. at tourneys). Also tier lists usually don't care about potential, they care about results and representation first and foremost.

You say this, but I could say the exactly the same thing to you about Palutena and Samus. You underestimate them. They have the potential to be good if in the right hands (eg. ESAM's Samus). In fact, I think everyone agrees that Zelda isn't actually a terrible character, but that's because there are no terrible characters in this game. But it is apparent that she is one of the worst relative to the rest of the cast. Also, I would refrain from saying things like "that's the truth" without actual evidence to back it up. It sounds a bit silly is all.

EDIT: I don't mean this to come across as a bashing. I just wanted to point out the flaws in your argument so you can see why people disagree.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It is a true blockstring. It's been tested. If you're hit with Ryu's Ftilt you're stuck there I believe (people have checked). Unless you PS it.

Meanwhile on the page before:

It's also a true block string if the first hit of it is power-shielded. It just means that there will be no shield damage for the first hit.

This is different to his Uair which is a block-string on a normal shield but is not if you powershield the first hit.

 

[TriTails]

Yea, I feel like Zelda could be better had her side aerials hadn't been a FJP-type kind of move. I mean, yes, 20%. But pitiful damage otherwise and mountain of landing lag. She probably could've been better off with a normal F-air or B-air.

And Din's Fire's explosion being quite late. And it send her to helpless in the air? How limiting.
Jab probably can be made faster. Frame 11 is slower than Marth's F-smash.

Granted, I'm not the wisest on Zelda but those are what I think of.

 

[Nobie]

While items on has a snowball's chance in hell of becoming accepted in tournaments, Ranai and a bunch of other Japanese players are doing 1v1 items right now on stream. A fascinating watch:

http://www.twitch.tv/hysranai

 

[Meru.]

Offline and online are both very different experience and I wouldn't count much on that.

*Gets launched by a Charge Shot in an attempt to PS because lag*

Ehmm I would. There are ton of good players who only play on the Japanese ladder but never go to tourneys, and are unknown to Western players, except for Yoshidora. Surely when creating their SHI-G tier list (= the Japanese tier list) most players looked at tourney results, but I wouldnt be surprised if some decision on character placements were influenced by their online ladder. Bowser Jr. for example was mid in their list even though he had no results, because at the time the no. 2 player on the ladder mained him (he was still somewhere in the top 10 last time and checked).

Online may feel different than offline but the results arent that different really. Good players still come out on top, the bad ones stay at the bottom. Japan is also a country with high population density, making their online experience feel much more smooth than in US.

 

[Wintropy]

Wiimas123 , you're missing the point: Nairo's Zelda is good because Nairo is a good player. He could play Dedede and he'd make him seem top-tier viable.

Now that isn't to say that a character's viability is born and dies with the player's skill, but it is a decisive factor. Sheik is undeniably the best character in the game right now, but I sure as hell ain't winnin' tournaments with her. I'm not a good player. It isn't fair to say that my demonstration of Sheik is indicative of how she fares in the competitive meta.

Zelda is a bad character relative to most others. I'm sorry, but that's the truth of the matter. She may not be bad, per se, in a vacuum, where you can say, "Frame 11 jab? Frame 10 grab? Yeah that's good in theory (because we have nothing to compare it to and therefore don't know the relative value of a frame)" - but compared to characters like Sheik, who can play the safest game in the world, or even Ganondorf, who's slow but gets good reward off of his reads, Zelda doesn't really have anything going for her.

Geez that was a run-on sentence...

To put it in simple terms: anything Zelda can do, somebody else can do better. That's okay, you can put the work in and get results with her. Nobody's stopping you. But she isn't competitively viable, and that's that.

 

[TriTails]

Ehmm I would. There are ton of good players who only play on the Japanese ladder but never go to tourneys, and are unknown to Western players, except for Yoshidora. Surely when creating their SHI-G tier list (= the Japanese tier list) most players looked at tourney results, but I wouldnt be surprised if some decision on character placements were influenced by their online ladder. Bowser Jr. for example was mid in their list even though he had no results, because at the time the no. 2 player on the ladder mained him (he was still somewhere in the top 10 last time and checked).

Online may feel different than offline but the results arent that different really. Good players still come out on top, the bad ones stay at the bottom. Japan is also a country with high population density, making their online experience feel much more smooth than in US.

I said 'wouldn't count much'. They do count, but not as much as an offline tourney.

Also IIRC no matter how smooth the game is, there will always be a 2-4 frames of input lag, which can be small or huge depending on the situation. A good player can be easily ****ed up by such a miniscule difference. There's this Yoshi I play with seemingly no lag but PSing his eggs are crapton harder than it would offline. I kept pressing the shield button yet it didn't come out. Had it been offline I would've ROTFL those eggs but no, my timing kept on being messed up by the inevitable input lag.

Fighting someone like ROB would also be hillariously terrible ecperience, I imagine. Shielding lasers on reaction is harder. Shielding gyros are harder. Sheik and Sonic are kinda ridiculous to fight online, too. I honestly wouldn't be too surprised if ZeRo lost in online environment. Online and offline simply differ quite drastically. Maybe it's just me who just ****ed up all around but the difference can be felt to me.

 

[Dinoman96]

Wiimas123 , you're missing the point: Nairo's Zelda is good because Nairo is a good player. He could play Dedede and he'd make him seem top-tier viable.

Now that isn't to say that a character's viability is born and dies with the player's skill, but it is a decisive factor. Sheik is undeniably the best character in the game right now, but I sure as hell ain't winnin' tournaments with her. I'm not a good player. It isn't fair to say that my demonstration of Sheik is indicative of how she fares in the competitive meta.

Zelda is a bad character relative to most others. I'm sorry, but that's the truth of the matter. She may not be bad, per se, in a vacuum, where you can say, "Frame 11 jab? Frame 10 grab? Yeah that's good in theory (because we have nothing to compare it to and therefore don't know the relative value of a frame)" - but compared to characters like Sheik, who can play the safest game in the world, or even Ganondorf, who's slow but gets good reward off of his reads, Zelda doesn't really have anything going for her.

Geez that was a run-on sentence...

To put it in simple terms: anything Zelda can do, somebody else can do better. That's okay, you can put the work in and get results with her. Nobody's stopping you. But she isn't competitively viable, and that's that.

Truer words have never been said.

 

[Wintropy]

Dinoman reminded me of this addendum:

Palutena isn't a good character. I main the character and I won't even try to sugarcoat it. She has nothing going for her in the competitive meta to make her stand out from others. She's definitely bottom half of the cast, probably bottom 10.

But I don't think it's fair to say she's worse than Zelda. Palutena may have sucky tools, but her tools function well in her overall kit; you can tell that there's a design philosophy behind her that, while debatably crippled without customs, nevertheless does things. It's a skeleton of a moveset, a scaffolding without plaster and mortar, but you can tell there's something tangible within it.

I don't feel that with Zelda. I feel you've got some good moves and some terrible moves, but none of them flow. She feels stilted. Maybe she's good in FFAs, maybe she's good in 2v2, but she isn't good in 1v1. Nothing short of a drastic overhaul to the character will change that. It's semantics to debate which of the two mediocre magical girls is the weaker of the two, because let's face it, they're both pretty disappointing - but saying Zelda is definitively better than Palutena is just flat-out in. Cor. Rect.

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

Is Zelda worse than Samus? Samus has the world's most punishable dodges.

 

[Dinoman96]

Dinoman reminded me of this addendum:

Palutena isn't a good character. I main the character and I won't even try to sugarcoat it. She has nothing going for her in the competitive meta to make her stand out from others. She's definitely bottom half of the cast, probably bottom 10.

But I don't think it's fair to say she's worse than Zelda. Palutena may have sucky tools, but her tools function well in her overall kit; you can tell that there's a design philosophy behind her that, while debatably crippled without customs, nevertheless does things. It's a skeleton of a moveset, a scaffolding without plaster and mortar, but you can tell there's something tangible within it.

I don't feel that with Zelda. I feel you've got some good moves and some terrible moves, but none of them flow. She feels stilted. Maybe she's good in FFAs, maybe she's good in 2v2, but she isn't good in 1v1. Nothing short of a drastic overhaul to the character will change that. It's semantics to debate which of the two mediocre magical girls is the weaker of the two, because let's face it, they're both pretty disappointing - but saying Zelda is definitively better than Palutena is just flat-out in. Cor. Rect.

Even more truer words have never been said.

And well, even if customs aren't currently in favor in the competitive scene, at least there was a period and game option where Palutena shined as a viable character. Unlike Zelda, who's just a bad character no matter what mode you're in, no matter what option toggle you press. Even if customs are gone, I don't think anyone could take that away from Palutena.

 

[KirbySquad101]

That, and well, Palutena actually has good mobility and moves that you HAVE to respect (B-Air, Dash Attack); I don't really feel like I need to respect anything Zelda does; I guess, maybe her Dash Attack?

 

[Jandlebars]

Is Zelda worse than Samus? Samus has the world's most punishable dodges.

Depends on how highly you rate Short-Hop Air-Dodges in the grand scheme of things, because Sammy gets mileage out of them.

At the very least, they can be used to actually bait and space. Rolls are better for pure evasion, of course, and I do wish Samus had one that wasn't slow as heck (seriously, couldn't it use the Boost Ball function at least?).
To properly answer your question: Samus shouldn't be rolling in the first place, so the fact that her roll is easy to punish is 'sort-of' a non-factor.

The patch has been kind to Samus. Who knows if she'll go anywhere, but other non-viable characters were definitely hard-done by.

 

[|RK|]

Samus, on the other hand, also has a moveset that "flows." You can see the sense in it - it just doesn't come together as well as one might have hoped.

Heavy combo machine with a bit of kill power. In theory.

I'd love to see how the dev team expected these characters to be played in 1 v 1, actually.

 

[Dinoman96]

Samus, on the other hand, also has a moveset that "flows." You can see the sense in it - it just doesn't come together as well as one might have hoped.

Heavy combo machine with a bit of kill power. In theory.

I'd love to see how the dev team expected these characters to be played in 1 v 1, actually.

The problem is, Sakurai has mentioned in the past that he balances certain characters to be better in certain modes, such as 1v1s, FFAs, FFAs with items off, etc.

Fox in Melee is a good example of a character designed around 1v1s. His Adventure Mode trophy even explicitly mentions as such. On the flipside, slow characters like Ganondorf and Dedede were definitely balanced around FFAs, with their slow but hardhitting attacks that are more likely to hit a crowd of people than when fighting one opponent.

I guess with Samus, they just thought that she was alright because people kept getting hit by her charge shot in FFAs or something.

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

The problem is, Sakurai has mentioned in the past that he balances certain characters to be better in certain modes, such as 1v1s, FFAs, FFAs with items off, etc.

Fox in Melee is a good example of a character designed around 1v1s. His Adventure Mode trophy even explicitly mentions as such. On the flipside, slow characters like Ganondorf and Dedede were definitely balanced around FFAs, with their slow but hardhitting attacks that are more likely to hit a crowd of people than when fighting one opponent.

I guess with Samus, they just thought that she was alright because people kept getting hit by her charge shot in FFAs or something.

Now that you mention it I feel like this was the original impetus behind customs. If a set of custom moves was just flat out better for 1v1, another set better for FFA, maybe it would have worked better.

 

[|RK|]

The problem is, Sakurai has mentioned in the past that he balances certain characters to be better in certain modes, such as 1v1s, FFAs, FFAs with items off, etc.

Fox in Melee is a good example of a character designed around 1v1s. His Adventure Mode trophy even explicitly mentions as such. On the flipside, slow characters like Ganondorf and Dedede were definitely balanced around FFAs, with their slow but hardhitting attacks that are more likely to hit a crowd of people than when fighting one opponent.

I guess with Samus, they just thought that she was alright because people kept getting hit by her charge shot in FFAs or something.

They definitely try to balance the characters around both modes, though. Samus isn't bad in FFAs at all, sure. But I get the feeling we're basing that off of Charge Shot alone. The team has repeatedly shown that they know what they're doing with balance - I don't think they'd be like "Charge Shot is decent, wrap it up."

 

[C0rvus]

Is Zelda worse than Samus? Samus has the world's most punishable dodges.

Well, any decent Samus knows this and uses short hop air dodge instead of rolling, and her SHAD is pretty good.

 

[Blobface]

Samus is an almost-good character held back by an endless array of bad move properties (hitbox size, placement, linking, etc.). Her problem isn't in her design like most characters, it's just really badly executed. Give her a little disjoint, fix her multi-hits, make missiles not trash, make one of her throws a passable kill-throw, and if her jab is really supposed to not link, have the first hit knock people away and the second hit be a projectile of some sort; mid to high tier Samus.


As an aside, this patch was the first to really balance some customs, and I really hope that becomes a trend.

 

[bc1910]

I'm probably in the minority but I don't think Samus or Zelda are that bad. Or rather, for "worst in the game" level characters they're decently good.

Samus has workable camping (say what you want about missiles, charge shot is threatening) and surprisingly good frame data. Her low percent combo game is surprisingly good, again for a character who hits "worst in the game" territory, and Up B OoS must be respected. Recovery is good too.

I think Zelda is worse, but Nayru's is still bonkers and FW can let her pull wins out of her ass in surprising situations. She also pretty much can't be edgeguarded by most of the cast.

Still not sure who I'd put below Zelda and I know both characters have crippling flaws that I haven't listed which keep them low on the list. I'm just saying, if I lose to those characters I'm never tearing my hair out over losing to low tiers like I would be in previous games. Both of them can still get stuff done.

 

[Dinoman96]

As an aside, this patch was the first to really balance some customs, and I really hope that becomes a trend.

Indeed. This could be a good opportunity for Sakurai and his team to redeem custom moves in the face of the competitive scene. He seems to be aware there are people interested in using custom moves in a more serious environment, considering Tourney Mode now offers 1v1 For Glory tourneys with custom moves, but no equipment.

That and the patch was definitely a step in the right direction, but if they really want to persuade folks, they should:

1. Obviously nerf DK/Sonic/Villager's customs to hell and back
2. Make unlocking them much more easier
3. Add a variation of For Glory in With Anyone that allows for usage of custom specials only, no equipment (it's already coded in the game for pete's sake!)

Giving the DLC characters customs would help too.

 

[wedl!!]

To be perfectly fair, Zelda also has some of the worst specials in the game with Din's and Phantom, which will never hit you unless you don't have a pulse. Also the whole no mobility or frame data thing is maybe sorta crippling.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm probably in the minority but I don't think Samus or Zelda are that bad. Or rather, for "worst in the game" level characters they're decently good.

Samus has workable camping (say what you want about missiles, charge shot is threatening) and surprisingly good frame data. Her low percent combo game is surprisingly good, again for a character who hits "worst in the game" territory, and Up B OoS must be respected. Recovery is good too.

I think Zelda is worse, but Nayru's is still bonkers and FW can let her pull wins out of her *** in surprising situations. She also pretty much can't be edgeguarded by most of the cast.

Still not sure who I'd put below Zelda and I know both characters have crippling flaws that I haven't listed which keep them low on the list. I'm just saying, if I lose to those characters I'm never tearing my hair out over losing to low tiers like I would be in previous games. Both of them can still get stuff done.

Agreed, which is why I stipulated that Zelda is bad relative to the rest of the cast.

I know a very good Zelda player that can beat players of characters 30 spots above her in the tier list. I don't underestimate Zelda because I know she can be very threatening in the right hands, which is more than can be said for most low-tiers in former games.

This is why I think fundamentals trump tier placement. Tier placement will factor into any matchup, but I'd rather be the Palutena player with solid fundamentals than the Sheik player who doesn't know how to SHAC.

 

[Jaguar360]

To be perfectly fair, Zelda also has some of the worst specials in the game with Din's and Phantom, which will never hit you unless you don't have a pulse. Also the whole no mobility or frame data thing is maybe sorta crippling.

Phantom is more than usable now with the blindspot fix. Din's is probably one of the worst specials in the game though, yeah. It's kind of useful in edgeguarding for forcing different recovery paths though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Is Zelda worse than Samus? Samus has the world's most punishable dodges.

I think Samus has a handful of decent matchups against characters that aren't terrible. She probably fairs well enough against characters like ROB or Peach, whom she used to go even with in Brawl. Can't think of a matchup against a good character where Zelda does similarly well as Samus has against Luigi for example.

But yeah, the new patch may or may not have thrown things out of order. More likely than not we're looking at a different metagame though so we just have to see what happens.

 

[Wiimas123]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Zelda is bad. Really bad. She is a combination of frail, slow, and mostly comboless, with really bad projectile game, contrary to what you've said, meaning she excels in no area that is necessary for a character to be good. Din's Fire takes so long to detonate that it usually can be avoided just by dashing past it, and Phantom is as easy to avoid as just jumping over it because Zelda can't cancel it or store charge. She has among the worst aerial and ground speeds in the game, and no safe approach moves to make up for it. In close range combat, she suffers from ridiculously poor frame data, such as a godawful 11 frame jab and 10 frame grab. She has some minor followups off of down throw and down tilt at low percents, but once opponents start getting higher up in percentage her "combos" become basically nonexistant. So to some it up, she is terribly slow to move and act, is bad at close range, is bad at a distance, has limited combos that mostly revolve off of a 10 frame grab, and she dies earlier than most of the cast. And on top of all that, she has a big hurtbox too, so she can't actually crouch to avoid attacks like most other light characters. The only things going for her are fair, bair, and teleport kills. Probably the worst character in the game at the moment.

EDIT: Oh, and if you don't believe me, ask the Zelda forums. They are some of the loudest opponents to Zelda's viability.

Ok, I specifically said that Zelda is not the best but not the worst. This means she isn't that good. But she's pretty good compared to Samus and Palutena. She does need some major buffs. But not all what you said is correct, her aerials aren't near the worst. She isn't good but compared to Palutena and Samus? I'd at least say she's better than them. She also has some tournament use and she was used pretty fairly. You should watch some videos and maybe you'll learn she's not so so so bad and that she's better than Palutena and Samus.

Wiimas123 , you're missing the point: Nairo's Zelda is good because Nairo is a good player. He could play Dedede and he'd make him seem top-tier viable.

Now that isn't to say that a character's viability is born and dies with the player's skill, but it is a decisive factor. Sheik is undeniably the best character in the game right now, but I sure as hell ain't winnin' tournaments with her. I'm not a good player. It isn't fair to say that my demonstration of Sheik is indicative of how she fares in the competitive meta.

Zelda is a bad character relative to most others. I'm sorry, but that's the truth of the matter. She may not be bad, per se, in a vacuum, where you can say, "Frame 11 jab? Frame 10 grab? Yeah that's good in theory (because we have nothing to compare it to and therefore don't know the relative value of a frame)" - but compared to characters like Sheik, who can play the safest game in the world, or even Ganondorf, who's slow but gets good reward off of his reads, Zelda doesn't really have anything going for her.

Geez that was a run-on sentence...

To put it in simple terms: anything Zelda can do, somebody else can do better. That's okay, you can put the work in and get results with her. Nobody's stopping you. But she isn't competitively viable, and that's that.

I agree with you she's not that great. She's not that great at all. I was just trying to show that she has more competitive use then Palutena or Samus. Which she does.

 

[Wintropy]

I agree with you she's not that great. She's not that great at all. I was just trying to show that she has more competitive use then Palutena or Samus. Which she does.

She doesn't.

There is absolutely nothing to say that Zelda has more competitive use than Palutena or Samus. Aerolink himself makes that evident, heh.

Zelda's main issue is that she doesn't have a cohesive kit. She has some moves that are good in a vacuum, but nothing works together to make it competitively viable. Now I don't know about Samus, but Palutena did get decent results back when Aerolink played her and there's a small handful of Palutena players that still do good stuff with her - at least compared to Zelda, who, to be quite honest, hasn't done much worth mentioning.

If you can find tournament results that prove the contrary, be my guest.

But I don't think you're being realistic.

 

[Wiimas123]

I would look for Nairo playing Zelda in tournament but I have a feeling that I won't find much. Sure Nairo's Zelda is pretty good, I'm sure his Jigglypuff is pretty good as well, because he's one of the best players in the world. Doesn't mean much about the character's viability when he never pulls her out when anything at all is on the line (ie. at tourneys). Also tier lists usually don't care about potential, they care about results and representation first and foremost.

You say this, but I could say the exactly the same thing to you about Palutena and Samus. You underestimate them. They have the potential to be good if in the right hands (eg. ESAM's Samus). In fact, I think everyone agrees that Zelda isn't actually a terrible character, but that's because there are no terrible characters in this game. But it is apparent that she is one of the worst relative to the rest of the cast. Also, I would refrain from saying things like "that's the truth" without actual evidence to back it up. It sounds a bit silly is all.

EDIT: I don't mean this to come across as a bashing. I just wanted to point out the flaws in your argument so you can see why people disagree.

I agree she's not the best but I believe she has more potential then Palutena and Samus.

 

[Wintropy]

Wiimas123 , for our sake and yours, can you please define specifically what makes Zelda better than Palutena and Samus? Or, for that matter, anybody in the roster?

If you don't make your case and cite verifiable evidence beyond "this is my opinion", you will be ignored. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but what you're doing doesn't make for productive discussion, it's just provocative and unfounded.

EDIT: My point was totally ignored. I'm done with this discussion.

 

[Jamurai]

I agree she's not the best but I believe she has more potential then Palutena and Samus.

You haven't explained why this is though, other than giving an outline of Zelda's kit, which most of us already know. Palutena and Samus have more results than Zelda does; it's been a year and Zelda has nothing. What potential do you speak of? (And why do you dislike Palutena and Samus so much?)

 

[Wiimas123]

She doesn't.

There is absolutely nothing to say that Zelda has more competitive use than Palutena or Samus. Aerolink himself makes that evident, heh.

If you can find tournament results that prove the contrary, be my guest.

But I don't think you're being realistic.

Palutena is extremely slow and barely viable without her custom moves. Also on most tier lists she's below Zelda. Samus does have a grab combo and can kinda zone. But that's it. She also places low on a lot of tier lists. I am not trying to say she's the best but I am trying to say she's better than Palutena and Samus.

You haven't explained why this is though, other than giving an outline of Zelda's kit, which most of us already know. Palutena and Samus have more results than Zelda does; it's been a year and Zelda has nothing. What potential do you speak of? (And why do you dislike Palutena and Samus so much?)

I don't dislike them per say but I don't believe they should be where they are. I believe they are the 2 worst characters and I explained why I thought so like a couple minutes ago so look for that.

 

[Zage]

Dinoman reminded me of this addendum:

Palutena isn't a good character. I main the character and I won't even try to sugarcoat it. She has nothing going for her in the competitive meta to make her stand out from others. She's definitely bottom half of the cast, probably bottom 10.

But I don't think it's fair to say she's worse than Zelda. Palutena may have sucky tools, but her tools function well in her overall kit; you can tell that there's a design philosophy behind her that, while debatably crippled without customs, nevertheless does things. It's a skeleton of a moveset, a scaffolding without plaster and mortar, but you can tell there's something tangible within it.

I don't feel that with Zelda. I feel you've got some good moves and some terrible moves, but none of them flow. She feels stilted. Maybe she's good in FFAs, maybe she's good in 2v2, but she isn't good in 1v1. Nothing short of a drastic overhaul to the character will change that. It's semantics to debate which of the two mediocre magical girls is the weaker of the two, because let's face it, they're both pretty disappointing - but saying Zelda is definitively better than Palutena is just flat-out in. Cor. Rect.

The single most accurate thing I've ever read about Zelda/Palutena in this thread.

 

[Wiimas123]

The single most accurate thing I've ever read about Zelda/Palutena in this thread.

Palutena is not better than Zelda. Her tilts are extremely sluggish, and her specials are way too gimmicky to be used effectively. He smash attacks are also pretty mediocre. Also, all of her normals have extreme lag and her tilts and smashes are slow.

 

[Kurri ★]

Palutena is not better than Zelda. Her tilts are extremely sluggish, and her specials are way too gimmicky to be used effectively. He smash attacks are also pretty mediocre. Also, all of her normals have extreme lag and her tilts and smashes are slow.

You say this, but where are the results?

 

[zeldasmash]

Samus has a good SHAD, has really good throw combos, Charge Shot is menacing, Zair is a good spacing, has a good recovery and can survive until very high percentages. I don't know much about Palutena, but at least with customs she's good and her aerial kit is pretty good. Zelda has some stuff (Up B), but compared to Samus or Palutena, they are either much more situational or flat-out worse.

 

[Wiimas123]

You say this, but where are the results?

I got the results from a mixture of personally trying to play as her and from people talking about her. Tbh it's kinda known she's not that good.

Samus has a good SHAD, has really good throw combos, Charge Shot is menacing, Zair is a good spacing, has a good recovery and can survive until very high percentages. I don't know much about Palutena, but at least with customs she's good and her aerial kit is pretty good. Zelda has some stuff (Up B), but compared to Samus or Palutena, they are either much more situational or flat-out worse.

I like how you don't explain any of the faults with Samus even though she has more of those lol.

 

[LancerStaff]

Potential means we're missing something. I mean... What are we missing on Zelda? If I said Peach or Pit or maybe even Samus had untapped potential back in 1.1.0, people wouldn't think I'm crazy. These characters do things, have functioning gameplans, and haven't exactly been under the highest scrutiny. Zelda doesn't really work to begin with... Since she doesn't flow she doesn't have connections to be made, and no connections means no optimization, which means no growth which means no potential.

 

[Quickhero]

As an Ike main, I'm going to practice my Link just so I have someone for ****ing Meta Knight.