Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[NachoOfCheese]

Only gripe I really have with Luigi is that his Down-Throw combos into kills*. Having Dash Grab rack percent and kill is just silly, especially since he already has really good kill options with F-smash, U-smash, SJP, and N-air. I kind of like Luigi's combo heavy niche but it's wonky for one plan to land him % and kills.

*while you can DI them as a mixup, there's not really any way to completely avoid them, especially with D-throw --> N-air

And yet...
Ness does this
Dk does this
Charizard does this
Robin does this
Diddy still does this
But no one says anything about those guys.

 

[Megamang]

Right, he can't shieldgrab as effectively, so they give him devastating grabs to make him more aggressively oriented since dashing in works out pretty well. The issue is, he really doesn't have a hard time grabbing because his actual grab is great, and fireballs shut down lots of gameplay options. Of course, you need a tool like that to really stick it to shiek/zss/rosa/sonic, so whether you see him as barely undertuned enough to be unviable or a character invalidating monster is probably based on both your character and how close you live to boss.

EDIT:

Nacho, some of those characters aren't nearly as potent with the killing aspect. Diddy especially sticks out, he no longer can u-air kill you that effectively if you avoid it correctly; when i die to diddy its because I got hit with a peel too close

 

[Mario766]

Most people don't even DI Luigi's down throw correctly at any percents. They always want to DI out at low percents and in at high percents, which is perfect for Luigi.

 

[DunnoBro]

And yet...
Ness does this
Dk does this
Charizard does this
Robin does this
Diddy still does this
But no one says anything about those guys.

None of those characters have both the damage output AND kill potential off grabs that luigi does with the great, safe dash grab. Only one that comes close is DK but even he is less forgiving character/percent-wise.

Let's not pretend as if luigi isn't in a class all his own when it comes to safe, potent grabs.

 

[Green L]

Yet no one has mentioned how slow he is in the air. Luigi can't soar in the air compared to most characters. His poor traction makes it hard for luigi to get the grab. Everyone needs to remember Luigi isn't flawless.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Luigi's Dash Grab is so large and fast that he can dash grab punish a max range Robin Levin Fair out of shield from any position other than retreating.

Low traction be damned.

 

[biribiri]

Is Luigi's recovery considered a weakness to offset his grab game? How exploitable is he offstage at mid-top level play?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Is Luigi's recovery considered a weakness to offset his grab game? How exploitable is he offstage at mid-top level play?

Thing about edgeguarding Luigi is that there's a chance you might end up dying completely just because he got lucky

 

[DunnoBro]

Is Luigi's recovery considered a weakness to offset his grab game? How exploitable is he offstage at mid-top level play?

Depends largely on character, but in most MUs, good or bad, the opponent has to go hard for edgeguards to beat him.

 

[Planty]

Can you not just wait for green missile to finish, and THEN drop down and hit him during the massive endlag? Same goes with cyclone recovery. It's exploitable. The misfire argument seems kinda silly.

 

[Rikkhan]

Is Luigi's recovery considered a weakness to offset his grab game? How exploitable is he offstage at mid-top level play?

 

[Asdioh]

Yet no one has mentioned how slow he is in the air. Luigi can't soar in the air compared to most characters. His poor traction makes it hard for luigi to get the grab. Everyone needs to remember Luigi isn't flawless.

That uh, that's mentioned all the time. In the last page even. It was mentioned how his poor traction and "poor speed" (same runspeed as Kirby ) doesn't matter much because he covers space so well with fireball and dashgrab.

Is Luigi's recovery considered a weakness to offset his grab game? How exploitable is he offstage at mid-top level play?

Depends on your character. If Luigi's recovering from directly beneath the ledge, with double jump into instant UpB, Kirby can consistently gimp him out of that with a well-timed Dair. It's the only thing keeping the matchup doable. His SideB is a bad move, so it should be easy to edgeguard in theory, but there's always the chance of a misfire, which is just awful if you get hit by it.

Most people don't even DI Luigi's down throw correctly at any percents. They always want to DI out at low percents and in at high percents, which is perfect for Luigi.

I've said this before, but I remember prepatch Diddy would have "Diddy defenders," if you will, giving tutorials on how to DI his throw combos. I've never seen anything like this for Sheik or Luigi throws. Or even ZSS throws. Closest I've seen are the Boost Kick DI tutorial, and maybe the stuff ESAM's been doing lately, like his "how to deal with Luigi fireball" video. Are you telling me to DI Luigi Dthrow in at early percents, and away at kill percents? ...because I've tried it all, and he gets free combos and kills either way. Maybe nobody makes tutorials on how to DI these throws because it literally doesn't matter :x

 

[hypersonicJD]

I think ZSS is more indicative of what's behind the gate.

Luigi solidly beats pikachu, mario, sonic, diddy, fox, ness, otherwise good characters which with the exception of ness and fox do very well vs all top tiers.

(Though only pikachu, diddy and mario have examples of top players of those characters being bodied by luigis to my knowledge)

Excuse me, why does Luigi defeat Sonic? Sonic doesn't give a dang about Luigi's damage because of spring, he is fast enough to lose Luigi and has so much better mobility and edgeguard. Maybe I have battled bad Luigi's but I haven't had a problem with Luigi's using Sonic. And even then I can just ditto and defeat them. Or go Captain Falcon and beat the crap out of them. Mario is at least -1 with Luigi.

 

[Pyr]

I've said this before, but I remember prepatch Diddy would have "Diddy defenders," if you will, giving tutorials on how to DI his throw combos. I've never seen anything like this for Sheik or Luigi throws. Or even ZSS throws. Closest I've seen are the Boost Kick DI tutorial, and maybe the stuff ESAM's been doing lately, like his "how to deal with Luigi fireball" video. Are you telling me to DI Luigi Dthrow in at early percents, and away at kill percents? ...because I've tried it all, and he gets free combos and kills either way. Maybe nobody makes tutorials on how to DI these throws because it literally doesn't matter :x

First thing to note: Luigi cannot NOT get a re-grab if he has a high amount of rage, unless the character specific combo is FAir > Nair. They just get popped to high when DI'ing away and up.

Low (0-20%): Character Specific: Fair > (Nair, Fair, UAir). Frame 3-6 aeirals beat out a re-grab if DI's up+away. If he reads this, you get regrabbed due to shield grabs. Some characters will get re-grabbed at this percent regardless of DI. At this percent, DIing towards and up doesn't do much.

Can also get a strong DAir for a grab reset. It's not true, so, if they keep doing it, hit them out of it.

Can lead to U-Tilt chains, or Jab/D-Tilt Shenanigans.

Low-Mid (21%-48%): Fair > (Nair, Fair, UAir), Character Specific. Only on specific characters will this lead to a re-grab. Can DI Towards and Up to pop above him. If he misses the read, Fair pops you behind him, where the only followup is a late Uair or Bair. If he reads it, he can get an UAir Chain or a Dair strong for a regrab.

If he reads a reaction from you, he can DJ after FAir. Depending on reaction, he can do FF-Nair Late hit into more combos. The Tilt chains and jab setups stop working at 30ish%.

Mid (49%-70ish%): Regrabs become impossible. At around 70% on average, Fair hits too far to follow up when DI'd away. It becomes better to go for DAir, Nair (being above Luigi is bad), RAR Bair, or Up-B if this is done. DI'ing towards leads to going above him. Keeping this DI for a FAir lets FAir combo if he reads it and moves back slightly for FAir. If he reads it wrong, FAir hits too far away for anything but BAir.

NEVER AIRDODGE. YOU WILL HIT THE GROUND AND BE HELPLESS. EVEN IF IT AVOIDS PAIN, LUIGI CAN GROUND UP-B YOU AND KILL YOU AT THESE PERCENTS.

Mid-High (71%-100%): Same as Mid, but a rising NAir pops you up and sets you up for anything he wants... So long as he reacts correctly. Not many Luigi's do this. Vary your DI more, since, at these percents, Aerial Up-B starts killing. Most Luigi's will not go for this, because missing is a hard punish, but it's an option. If you don't know how to DI Down-B, this starts killing at 90ish%. See below to deal with it.

High (100%+): Down-B kills start working here when they aren't DI'd or you get set up into one. SDI down to force him to not press buttons to keep you in for the final hit. This forces the move to finish lower, allowing for deaths to occur much later (120%-140% or more) with minimal rage.

Bair Kills at the side (50% rage) at 120ish out of the throw. Be sure to DI away to make this much hader for Luigi.

NAir kills at 150% if it's staled a bit. It likely will be.

Up-B kills are guaranteed at 107%, give or take 10%. D3 is the latest to die from it, and those are roughtly the numbers I remember testing.

U-Air kills at 170%. You will never be killed by this, though, cause U-Throw starts killing here, too, and that is obviously a more guaranteed option.



FireBall > Grab is common. Max range, if blocked or on hit, allows a grab. 3/4 range, only blocked allows a grab. 1/2 range and earlier, you leave shield/hit stun when/before Luigi leaves animation lock.

Matchup specifically, some characters can SH > attack before Luigi recovers (at various distances). On reaction, you can short hop, full hop, etc and be safe. Luigi's mobility in the air is so bad that he can't catch you with anything. If you ever read the fireball, you get a free soft punch.

Frame 5 or lower Jabs easily break grabs when shielding/PShielding/on hit. In order for a Luigi to get grabs on these characters, the Luigi needs to read and PS the jab.

His standing grab's range is ****, but it's frame 6. His Dashing grab's range is basically 1/2ish his fox-trot distance. Never land within this range of Luigi. He gets a free grab. He can be walled out of this range by various characters.

Patience beats the grab game. Strong zoning and "hit and run" tactics are hard for Luigi to deal with. It's why his worst MUs are MM, Rosa, and Sheik. Find the option that your character has to deal with it like this and you'll find that Luigi's grab isn't a huge deal.



Hope this helps you guys. Completely wreck my character! I want to see what you guys come up with.


Edit: There are things that don't directly combo and work as setups, and character specific things (Jiggs can't be re-grabbed with DI, period) that I didn't go into. If there are things like setups off of the first FAir (like Fireball frame traps), then that should be discussed later.

Edit2:


Was re-reading and this wasn't clarified. It's the entire hitbox for the very first frame of the hitbox.

Older, but still good.

 

[DunnoBro]

Excuse me, why does Luigi defeat Sonic? Sonic doesn't give a dang about Luigi's damage because of spring, he is fast enough to lose Luigi and has so much better mobility and edgeguard.

I was a little hesitant to list off sonic, he doesn't beat sonic as badly as others imo. Luigi mostly wins due to three factors:

1: Negates sonic's mobility with fireballs and dash grab
2: Overall stage selection in the US favors luigi over sonic in this MU. If sonic loses game 1, he HAS to win on an awful stage for him and great stage for luigi. If luigi loses game 1, he's fine pretty much wherever sonic takes him if he properly strikes duck hunt and/or delfino.
3: Kills sonic disgustingly well with rage(60-80 off grab), so sonic NEEDS to either get the edgeguard or outplay luigi hard.
Also, I don't know why you think you can spring out of his combos. They're TRUE combos, you can do this to escape some frame traps but it's risky cause luigi might get you in another grab.

The only way I can see it as anything but sonic's loss is with the intent to time luigi out right from the start... But I'd consider that a risky strategy to begin with.

Overall, sonic's neutral doesn't dominate luigi enough to make up for the fact luigi kills him in 3-4 grabs.

 

[Xermo]

And yet...
Ness does this

Do you even play the game. Ness doesn't convert off of d-throw after a certain percent. Luigi is always guaranteed a followup, which is a kill most of the time.

Even diddy stops getting a followup.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

That uh, that's mentioned all the time. In the last page even. It was mentioned how his poor traction and "poor speed" (same runspeed as Kirby ) doesn't matter much because he covers space so well with fireball and dashgrab.

Depends on your character. If Luigi's recovering from directly beneath the ledge, with double jump into instant UpB, Kirby can consistently gimp him out of that with a well-timed Dair. It's the only thing keeping the matchup doable. His SideB is a bad move, so it should be easy to edgeguard in theory, but there's always the chance of a misfire, which is just awful if you get hit by it.


I've said this before, but I remember prepatch Diddy would have "Diddy defenders," if you will, giving tutorials on how to DI his throw combos. I've never seen anything like this for Sheik or Luigi throws. Or even ZSS throws. Closest I've seen are the Boost Kick DI tutorial, and maybe the stuff ESAM's been doing lately, like his "how to deal with Luigi fireball" video. Are you telling me to DI Luigi Dthrow in at early percents, and away at kill percents? ...because I've tried it all, and he gets free combos and kills either way. Maybe nobody makes tutorials on how to DI these throws because it literally doesn't matter :x

If you could DI out of Luigi's combos what would even be the point of Luigi?

Basically you can try to DI but you won't escape. That's why tutorials don't exist for it. (Honestly, if combos were escapable by DI this game would be very boring). Just mix up your DI and don't be DK (because frame data).

 

[Pyr]

If you could DI out of Luigi's combos what would even be the point of Luigi?

Basically you can try to DI but you won't escape. That's why tutorials don't exist for it. (Honestly, if combos were escapable by DI this game would be very boring). Just mix up your DI and don't be DK (because frame data).

This the next bogus thing to spread through the community? How would you feel if I told you that Luigi has a dead range where it's better to throw for stage control instead of D-Throw because the optimal play cannot be guaranteed and the stage control is worth more then an extra 7% for doing the safer option?

And, as for a tutorial, none exists because the majority of the smash 4 community is lazy as ****.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Do you even play the game. Ness doesn't convert off of d-throw after a certain percent. Luigi is always guaranteed a followup, which is a kill most of the time.

Even diddy stops getting a followup.

Have... you ever played as ness? In ANY Smash game? Why are you using dthrow at kill percents? Why are comparing his grab game to Luigi? Thats like using Sonic as a baseline for speed.

This the next bogus thing to spread through the community? How would you feel if I told you that Luigi has a dead range where it's better to throw for stage control instead of D-Throw because the optimal play cannot be guaranteed and the stage control is worth more then an extra 7% for doing the safer option?

And, as for a tutorial, none exists because the majority of the smash 4 community is lazy as ****.

How would I feel?
Idk. Well-Informed?

 

[DunnoBro]

If you could DI out of Luigi's combos what would even be the point of Luigi?.

A lot, depending on how they do it. FBP could punish air dodges and double jump cyclone punishes jump aways/no air dodge with kills around 50% each. The threat of these would force opponents into situations where they'd rather just take the raw damage. Luigi has the frame data to cover options and frame trap VERY well, there's just no reason for him to as he is since by taking the true combo he'll almost for sure kill off the next grab anyway

I don't particularly think he needs to be changed that much, but he'd certainly still be a potent character.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Priority doesn't exist. It isn't a thing. Stop acting like it is because you are wrong. Ground moves clink, aerials trade. The only things that matter with regards to disobeying these rules are transcendence, invulnerability, super armor, and if an attack deals 9% more damage than another one.

You have LITERALLY described priority.

 

[Nobie]

One thing I've noticed between 3DS and Wii U versions is that when you fall towards the bottom of the stage, the screen scrolls differently. The reason I noticed this is because on the 3DS I would Up B at a certain point to sweet spot the ledge, using the movement of the screen to time my recovery. On the Wii U though, it actually would cause me to overshoot the ledge.

 

[Xermo]

Have... you ever played as ness? In ANY Smash game? Why are you using dthrow at kill percents? Why are comparing his grab game to Luigi? Thats like using Sonic as a baseline for speed.

I'm not comparing his grab game to luigi's, you were, mango. Stop playing ignorant.

 

[Pyr]

How would I feel?
Idk. Well-Informed?

Then let me let ya know: Mid to Mid high percents (12ish% before D-Throw > Up-B kills), you stop getting good followups on most of his air kit. The only thing you can get is a Down-B on a rising, late Nair, but I'm confident at this point that it's not true. Bair doesn't really work, either, because they are sent so high and it has a tad bit of startup. D-Air isn't true, so U-Air is the best option for your A button.

That makes it a nice little chunk of damage, but, in sacrificing a bit of %, you can F-Throw/Back Throw to gain more stage control. That's advisable, because the only other real options are Down-B (does 9% fresh, so you staled your kill move AND did less then U-Air) and Up-B (20% damage + throw damage makes it the most damaging option). Thing is, Up-B can't kill yet, but does the most damage. If they DI away, it's hard/impossible to hit, depending on who you're using it on. You have to read the DI, which makes the optimal damage followup inconsistent.

There aren't really any good alternatives to follow up at this percent if they do DI that way. You've got U-Air and Down-B, which is meh. So, stage control is the best option. It's more consistent and flexible.

But ya. If I see you take the mentality of "I'm going to get hit, anyway. Might as well not do anything/care" then I'll take the damage option.

Begin Tangent:

Luigi is like a lot of vortex characters IMO: They got in. They knocked you down. Now you need to guess right and get out, then keep them out. Play around their tricks. Because, if you don't, you're getting stunned and you lose. It's frustrating to play against because you feel helpless.

That said, Luigi works differently then that in this game because "getting out" happens by default. You'll eventually leave the vortex. "Getting out" more refers to "mitigate what he does with the advantage."

My view on the matter, and sorry if my idea of a traditional fighter's "vortex" characters is off.

/tangent

 

[Blobface]

I do think people should keep in mind that Luigi is probably going to start falling out of style as people figure out their edgeguarding options and start getting more aggressive offstage.

And no, stage control nor risk do not justify staying onstage against Luigi when he recovers. He recovers horribly slow and is painfully easy to intercept during all of it*, and even though he gets decent raw distance, it's not like you can't keep hitting him.

*minus DJ up-B, but you should never let him directly below the ledge in the first place.

 

[Shaya]

Alright.. bad design aye. Well, it is somewhat subjective and it could go on for an infinite length of time but I'll make some clarifications I suppose.

Let's just imagine that this game is hyper-RPS; the analogy dumbed down would be rock is attack, paper is shield and grab is scissors. If a character's capabilities are skewed in such a way that they are able to forego one part (i.e. rock) and still win, there is something wrong.
Pre-patch Diddy in comparison to now... could win with just paper and scissors as well, his entire kit that focuses around an interesting 'rock' wasn't worth developing or using at most levels of play because you just didn't need to.

Sometimes the issue is because of overtuned numbers (damage for example) which pushes risk/reward towards an inane scenario. Captain Falcon getting to 100% and switching to 'back air only' because of its safety, damage and kill power (sub 100% type of KO power) were skewed enough that Falcon could get away with this. Back air is still a good "walling" move, is still very safe on shields, but from just a 1% nerf no longer becomes a 50/50 with rewards so heavily skewed in the Falcon's favour that he could successfully pull wins playing like this. A character which has top tier specs in 'aggressive' approaching and rush down also having a near insurmountable walling tool; it didn't make sense and it resulted in an "abusive" character.

What constitutes bad design to me is the lack of universal counter play to a move or strategy.
Character specific strengths/attributes are meant to alter match ups not by hard countering or completely nullifying a tool, but rather giving an additional option among the universal options all the other characters have.
Good [dash] grabs, for the most part, have never had real counter play to them, they're a class of some of the longest ranged moves, give massive reward, beat shields, and for those strengths have excessively low risk on average (the best outspeeding defensive options in smash4).​

Ice Climbers in Brawl only needed a grab for a stock, and some of the most dominant ICs played in such a way that only a few things would happen: Ice Blocks/Blizzard nullifying your zoning game and CQC (if you dared to...), dash grab to back roll only being possible to capitalize on if you could hit both climbers (hitting only one equated to death), and as being in the air countered grabs having one of the best up airs with some of the best landing coverage tools equated to a completely dead game within a year or two of ICs being realised in this way. These tools all had very little single options that could overcome them at all... Marth and MK were the two characters in the game who could use aerials against Ice Climbers (fair/dair outranging blizzard and not being laggy enough to give a guaranteed grab if you didn't hit both climbers).

Luigi has a similar thing going for him, fireballs nullify many character's neutral games, people have to take risks/mix up to even get near him, yet he easily and generally reactively covers every possible universal choice with another fireball, a dash grab or up smash/etc. Worst case scenario he has to shield, which given his poor traction would be really good if damage values on average weren't as low in this game as they are when the range of his dash grab is A LOT longer than a majority of shield pushes would be.
In Brawl, Melee and 64 a universally good option was nerfed significantly, the amount of lag one suffers from clanking was increased, a character could jab some of the faster projectiles and usually be neutral in frame advantage if not ahead; walking and jabbing things as an approach was seen as a significantly stronger choice than walking and power shielding for most characters (MK being a character who could not do this, a reason why Marth did better in some match ups due to better approach options). If the projectile was particularly meaty or solid in CQC situations, a 50/50 interaction would occur from the clashing that was more option rich than shielding but obviously wasn't as safe as shielding. In smash4, that 50/50 interaction is now close to 100/0, clanking with a projectile like you would in every other game is a death wish.
Without that counter play being possible, then the only characters who can get by it are those with fast start up, long ranged, low landing lag aerials (clank lag not existing on aerials), any character on the ground within Luigi's fireball and dash grab range who doesn't have Sheik's fair actually have close to zero options Luigi cannot cover multiple of with just one.

That to me is bad design. A character's kit covering nearly all universal options with a few single button presses and only CHARACTERS can stand a chance if they have a tool that's better than fireball in neutral. Overtuning is different, other characters have similar abilities just not as strong, their kits overall not requiring that extent of favourable numbers to be strong and functional. While engine changes have benefited Luigi in a way I argue is too much, the overall balance in the game of lower damage pokes and "poor" short hop games really helped Luigi to not be so naturally at a disadvantage against most characters; the latter is probably a good thing.

 

[Ghostbone]

I don't think Luigi is actually as abusive as anyone here is claiming.
Fireball is a decent zoning option but is a lot worse now than before because of the increased lag, it's not that hard to punish luigi for choosing it if you anticipate it.
Fireball > grab is also never true, always beaten by rolls or attacks. If Luigi doesn't mix up his gameplay it's easy to abuse just as it is with every character.

And short hop fair or bair are integral to Luigi's neutral game, the character relies on 3 main options in neutral (fireball, dash grab, short hop fair), he's not as simple as run around dash grabbing as people are saying. Shield also is generally far worse for luigi than other characters because everything is safe on his shield. His neutral game has abusable holes just as every character's does if you read their option, it's skewed towards grab but the game wouldn't be interesting if everyone had the same reward on every option. Luigi just gets the most reward off grab, but someone has to get the most reward off grab.

Changing luigi from what he is would either make him unviable or homogenise him with the rest of the cast, for a character that is likely barely top 10, it's pretty extreme to suggest that's what he deserves.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't think Luigi is actually as abusive as anyone here is claiming.
Fireball is a decent zoning option but is a lot worse now than before because of the increased lag, it's not that hard to punish luigi for choosing it if you anticipate it.
Fireball > grab is also never true, always beaten by rolls or attacks. If Luigi doesn't mix up his gameplay it's easy to abuse just as it is with every character.

And short hop fair or bair are integral to Luigi's neutral game, the character relies on 3 main options in neutral (fireball, dash grab, short hop fair), he's not as simple as run around dash grabbing as people are saying. Shield also is generally far worse for luigi than other characters because everything is safe on his shield. His neutral game has abusable holes just as every character's does if you read their option, it's skewed towards grab but the game wouldn't be interesting if everyone had the same reward on every option. Luigi just gets the most reward off grab, but someone has to get the most reward off grab.

Changing luigi from what he is would either make him unviable or homogenise him with the rest of the cast, for a character that is likely barely top 10, it's pretty extreme to suggest that's what he deserves.

It almost seems like more of a spectator issue than actual play...

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I'm not comparing his grab game to luigi's, you were, mango. Stop playing ignorant.

Alls I said was Ness can both combo and kill off a grab. Am I wrong?

Then let me let ya know: Mid to Mid high percents (12ish% before D-Throw > Up-B kills), you stop getting good followups on most of his air kit. The only thing you can get is a Down-B on a rising, late Nair, but I'm confident at this point that it's not true. Bair doesn't really work, either, because they are sent so high and it has a tad bit of startup. D-Air isn't true, so U-Air is the best option for your A button.

That makes it a nice little chunk of damage, but, in sacrificing a bit of %, you can F-Throw/Back Throw to gain more stage control. That's advisable, because the only other real options are Down-B (does 9% fresh, so you staled your kill move AND did less then U-Air) and Up-B (20% damage + throw damage makes it the most damaging option). Thing is, Up-B can't kill yet, but does the most damage. If they DI away, it's hard/impossible to hit, depending on who you're using it on. You have to read the DI, which makes the optimal damage followup inconsistent.

There aren't really any good alternatives to follow up at this percent if they do DI that way. You've got U-Air and Down-B, which is meh. So, stage control is the best option. It's more consistent and flexible.

But ya. If I see you take the mentality of "I'm going to get hit, anyway. Might as well not do anything/care" then I'll take the damage option.

Begin Tangent:

Luigi is like a lot of vortex characters IMO: They got in. They knocked you down. Now you need to guess right and get out, then keep them out. Play around their tricks. Because, if you don't, you're getting stunned and you lose. It's frustrating to play against because you feel helpless.

That said, Luigi works differently then that in this game because "getting out" happens by default. You'll eventually leave the vortex. "Getting out" more refers to "mitigate what he does with the advantage."

My view on the matter, and sorry if my idea of a traditional fighter's "vortex" characters is off.

/tangent

Huh. The more you know. This reminds me how, as Ness, once Dthrow combos stop working it is optimal to either Uthrow for juggles or Fthrow to get some edgeguards going until Bthrow kills. I hope to see more Luigis implement Dthrow -> Up B as opposed to Cyclone for the kill. It's a risk-reward thing.

 

[Trifroze]

Luigi's neutral is exploitable enough that most characters who can deal with other high tiers can deal with Luigi, but man oh man does it feel frustrating to lose to a Luigi player doing Luigi things when you worked so hard to keep him out for 3-5 minutes. That's my only gripe with the character, and like @ DunnoBro said earlier a character with such an easily abusable strength should have a more easily exploitable weakness. Not a bigger weakness, but something easier to exploit (as those are not the same thing).

also pls friends powershielding completely negates Luigi's terrible traction

 

[Green L]

Actually, Luigi mains do use down throw to up b. They down throw, read the airdodge, then up b. By the way, I know power shielding negates his traction but good luck having the timing and reflexes power shielding every single attack like multiple shiek fairs

 

[MrTeddyBear]

Was it Neo who suffered a condition with his hands? There was a player who rarely played, but was good except his hand muscles can forcibly tense themselves. I think it was Neo. I wonder if that had anything to do with him under-performing.

I don't know if you figured this out already, but it was actually Mekos (former #1 Lucas in Brawl) who had the problem of his hand spazzing up sometimes. He just recently came back to Smash 4 competitively so I'm not sure if it's still an issue for him like it was in the past.

Actually, Luigi mains do use down throw to up b. They down throw, read the airdodge, then up b. By the way, I know power shielding negates his traction but good luck having the timing and reflexes power shielding every single attack like multiple shiek fairs

D-throw to Up-B is actually a true combo at early kill percents if you read the DI correctly, there's no reason for an experienced opponent to airdodge after a D-throw since they will suffer landing lag from the airdodge after they land, plus they won't be escaping the combo anyways so they are better off mashing attack or jump if the Luigi isn't fast enough for whatever reason.

 

[hypersonicJD]

If we want to complain about cheap characters, how about god damn Rosalina and Luma? Luma is such a beast at killng so early, and she can even let you go off a grab, Luma jab or Up Smash and you're dead. I really think they ****ed up with the design of some characters (Sonic, although he was like this in Brawl anyway, Rosalina is a monster when Luma is with her, but herself alone isn't such a threat, Luigi was a bad design too but it isn't that bad. And Sheik is so damn safe and amazing). In here we aren't to discuss about how much we hate a characer or how cheap he is. I think we are here to develop strategy's to counter those playstyles and wait for some nerfs and see how they change the meta. We need to advance on this thread. I know I don't help too much in here but I'm trying though. Let's start progressing and getting rid of those annoying characters. And yes, I do admit Sonic is annoying for his speed. At least he isn't Sheik with speed and safety.

 

[Trifroze]

Actually, Luigi mains do use down throw to up b. They down throw, read the airdodge, then up b. By the way, I know power shielding negates his traction but good luck having the timing and reflexes power shielding every single attack like multiple shiek fairs

Sheik's fair doesn't really matter considering no matter which character powershields it, it's going to be unpunishable by the large majority of them. You also hardly use reflexes to powershield anything as it's all mostly anticipation, and you only need to do it a few times per stock.

The more you continue to respond so defensively to every point against Luigi in this topic the longer the bandwagon will go on. Often it's better to let it pass once you've mentioned any good points you might have, while also accepting that there might be something to all those complaints others are throwing. No one is calling Luigi overpowered or saying he should be out of the game, they're just mentioning design flaws about him with mostly valid reasoning. A lot of characters have them, for better or worse, and it's his turn at the moment.

 

[Rizen]

Q: How many Luigis does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: Like 'how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop' the world will never know BECAUSE HIS D-THROW TO TORNADO COMBO KILLS THE LIGHT BULB AT ABSURDLY LOW %s!!!

 

[Shaya]

Just turn that 100/0 into a 50/50 and Luigi is sweet. Nearly every character in the cast would gain an option they can use that's still less effective than Sheik's fair but at least it would no longer be a one-sided interaction.
Falco (completely lop sided among approaching through fireballs [even if he does have laser/reflector] that doesn't get him punished on hit by nair) and Marth both would be very very happy. I think every high tier not named Sheik, ZSS and Rosalina would be very happy too (while those 3 characters wouldn't be suddenly doing much better than they already were). He would go from countering characters to soft-countering characters. SUCCESS.
I'm bringing this up a lot now (and will continue to), because just like extra hit lag modifiers being inanely 'a lot less safe on shield' was "resolved", clank animations being 2-3x slower than other games likely for the cinematic effect (just like hit lag modifiers) between two melee attacks could act differently if it's a projectile.

Sonic struggles with shields enough to, while not stopping him from having obnoxious design contrasts, keep his silly in check. He can't just hit a shield with spin dash... in general he can't release spin dash in neutral at all. He stifles interactions because he can side-b during a dash and instantly shield; however this is more of a feint than significant pressure.
He's still vulnerable in the air and on landing, he still has a sequential flow chart for his most "aggravating" features that can be played around once started (a character proving "yomi" can go four+ layers deep) . He still lacks an anti-air tool.
Just don't expect to be able to deal with "feints" balanced around offline/human reaction time on wifi . The lesser ability to see which option path Sonic goes for also hurts.

 

[san.]

In Brawl, clanking projectiles with jabs felt like 100/0 for Ike, since it would either clank to neutral or clank and hit the opponent at the same time. When I thoughtlessly tried it in Smash 4 and got punished for it, I learned what I truly felt like for characters without that option.

Sonic struggles with shields enough to, while not stopping him from having obnoxious design contrasts, keep his silly in check. He can't just hit a shield with spin dash... in general he can't release spin dash in neutral at all. He stifles interactions because he can side-b during a dash and instantly shield; however this is more of a feint than significant pressure.
He's still vulnerable in the air and on landing, he still has a sequential flow chart for his most "aggravating" features that can be played around once started (a character proving "yomi" can go four+ layers deep) . He still lacks an anti-air tool.
Just don't expect to be able to deal with "feints" balanced around offline/human reaction time on wifi . The lesser ability to see which option path Sonic goes for also hurts.

True. It's just annoying to be aggressive vs. spin dash when there's invincibility on startup as well. It just turns into an awkward standstill because of it.

 

[Vipermoon]

Just turn that 100/0 into a 50/50 and Luigi is sweet. Nearly every character in the cast would gain an option they can use that's still less effective than Sheik's fair but at least it would no longer be a one-sided interaction.
Falco (completely lop sided among approaching through fireballs [even if he does have laser/reflector] that doesn't get him punished on hit by nair) and Marth both would be very very happy. I think every high tier not named Sheik, ZSS and Rosalina would be very happy too (while those 3 characters wouldn't be suddenly doing much better than they already were). He would go from countering characters to soft-countering characters. SUCCESS.
I'm bringing this up a lot now (and will continue to), because just like extra hit lag modifiers being inanely 'a lot less safe on shield' was "resolved", clank animations being 2-3x slower than other games likely for the cinematic effect (just like hit lag modifiers) between two melee attacks could act differently if it's a projectile.

Sonic struggles with shields enough to, while not stopping him from having obnoxious design contrasts, keep his silly in check. He can't just hit a shield with spin dash... in general he can't release spin dash in neutral at all. He stifles interactions because he can side-b during a dash and instantly shield; however this is more of a feint than significant pressure.
He's still vulnerable in the air and on landing, he still has a sequential flow chart for his most "aggravating" features that can be played around once started (a character proving "yomi" can go four+ layers deep) . He still lacks an anti-air tool.
Just don't expect to be able to deal with "feints" balanced around offline/human reaction time on wifi . The lesser ability to see which option path Sonic goes for also hurts.

You're absolutely right. If they can change the hitlag issue maybe they'll do this if it is noticed.

I'll take a game where purposely getting hit by the fireballs isn't the best way to deal with them.

 

[|RK|]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's thanks to those (and other) locals that people were spurred on to think Ryu is strong. It suddenly having anecdotes at the highest level with money on the line is less of a confirmation bias and more of a logic.
The rest you're pretty right about, Ramin did lose the set, 6WX did only get seen using it in the ditto (although he's been using him for a while), Ryu by himself getting 9th is still pretty alright, but it's getting overhyped by the minor usage of him for the 7th and 5th placers.
That's why we would need to see more of it before it proves anything. Will people blindly put him in top 10 now? Yeah probably. Ramin did earnestly attempt to win with Ryu and got very close to doing so, but heck, he did the same with MK vs Nairo.
It's a good thing we have people like us to politely remind the awestruck and feeble to keep their heads on straight with their hype shenanigans.

@warionumbah2 he was a Wario main in Brawl.

Is it awestruck and feeble? I wouldn't put him in top tier (yet), but my understanding was that we took secondaries seriously when they are used to to win games. My understanding was that we said it meant something that the top players of a game chose a certain character to practice and play at the top levels.

My understanding is also telling me that we're trying to throw this off now... why? It's one thing to overhype a character. It's another to act like (and I'm not saying you are - it's just what it looks like in general) the results we've seen are of little to no importance.

 

[Yonder]

*Ahem* while we are complaining about Luigi for being too easy to rack up damage and kill with, Rosalina's up air exist. Why don't people complain about this move more often? It's like Mii's helicopter kick on steroids. Kills at 50% on mid weights [lower than Luigi's up B], heck it kills Mewtwo at 20%, yes, 20. Yet Rosalina can freely spam these halos of death without being punished unlike Luigi's Up B, and Rosalina is mobile enough to keep up the onslaught. Sheik needs nerfs before anyone [before Luigi for sure] but Rosalina's up air needs a nerf before anything. I'll be disappointed if it isn't next patch.