Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Zelder]

What makes ZSS so tough for Meta Knight?

 

[Green L]

Ok. I'm done talking about luigi but I have a question. Why is there a lack of edgeguarding in smash 4? I can see why it's pointless on really good recoveries like Shiek or ZSS but don't Falcon mains simple spike Rosalina during her up b?

 

[DunnoBro]

What makes ZSS so tough for Meta Knight?

Not 100% sure, I just see MK mains griping about it on the MK boards. I'd imagine it's because they both do similar things but ZSS has slightly more options?

Ok. I'm done talking about luigi but I have a question. Why is there a lack of edgeguarding in smash 4? I can see why it's pointless on really good recoveries like Shiek or ZSS but don't Falcon mains simple spike Rosalina during her up b?

Because due to the magno-ledge, more often than not you just give up stage control trying. It depends on the characters and player familiarity overall, though.

 

[TurboLink]

Neo is playing Marth in grand finals against boss right now after Sheik let him down.

He's won the first game and is in the lead for the second right now, although Neo's gotten most of his stocks with counter thus far... lol
And dtilt, our safest poke, is being shown as a guaranteed dash grab for Luigi if fireballs clash with it :<

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

And neo lost :<
Shame, but watching that match up is so silly. It's just like every other match up Luigi wins, it's just marth has the ability to slow down how many dash grabs inputs one can do per second, but that doesn't stop Luigi always having the most presence in neutral and stage control and the disgusting damage output/kills from grabs on Marth's very dash grabbable move set.

I was generally pretty annoyed/disappointed watching Xanadu today...
Luigi's existence is such an eye sore #_# Nothing but "nothing" and "dash grab", nothing sometimes including fireballs and sh double aerials.
Players who lose a set in a time out looking disappointed and a stream chat getting mad yet who was playing disingenuously here? The guy who only uses 3 moves out of their entire 20+ action moveset, one of them likely monstrously more seen than any other by a factor of two to three times or the guy attacking, pressuring and making commitments while only being spot dodged and back rolled as a response until dash grab lands (he switched to Kirby for the time out loss and basically played the same way as he would with Luigi)...
Seriously the saddest thing to exist in this game (as the highest exposure region for smash4), makes everything else that's starting to look amazing .. crap.

I don't know if I can watch Xanadu's anymore while Luigi is as stupid as it is. What's the point of watching 10+ Luigi sets every week showing the exact same thing in essentially every match up over and over again? GOOD PLAYERS who we know can get results at major-regional and even national level, losing to a character who just buffers dash grab... -.-

Where can I watch this match?

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

"Bad Design" really depends on what your ideal Smash Bros game would look like, though I'm sure we could all find some kind of common ground. Luigi will likely be patched at some point because he's a frustrating character at midlevel play, which likely has the greatest impact on balance changes.

I'd note that I think Captain Falcon is a beautifully designed character, whose strengths and weaknesses balance each other, and his offensive options flow together well. I admit his specials are a bit lackluster. His good design has some interesting effects. Firstly, he won't ever be the best character in any Smash because he always gets punished so hard for a mistake, and can't recover well. Secondly, Ganon will always struggle because he's Falcon without the one thing that makes Falcon's moveset actually work: speed and, by extension, his dash grab. The Captain can live without a projectile because he can get across the stage and slap you around in the blink of an eye. Not so for the Gerudo king.

 

[DunnoBro]

Actually even most top players notably dislike luigi. Ally especially lol

It isn't strictly a midlevel grievance.

 

[Jamurai]

What makes ZSS so tough for Meta Knight?

As a matter of fact we recently rediscussed the MU, see here.

 

[Megamang]

MK is such a bad MU for MK because a long time ago, whoever made their MU thread got flipkicked at 50% and never tried the MU again.


Srsly tho, not sure. Reliance on dashattack against a really strong punish character? I think the MK boards need to revisit this one, MK is short enough that ZSS has holes in her pressure that should be exploited. MK accels at exploiting holes. Now, if he was Rosa height id say it was unmanageable, but the ZSS posters ive seen (ZSS main till my pika is up to par myself included) are pretty wary of the rise of MK, since short characters are notoriously hard for us.


Just.... learn her setups, spend a few hrs, then avoid them. I would have lost so many pools matches if people didn't let me pick halberd...


EDIT: I guess flipkick as a get out of jail free card might make juggling based playstyles a *****. Still, he is faster on the ground that we are in the air im pretty sure, so it isn't a totally free escape.

Also, MK's d-smash hits FRAME 4? JESUS.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Actually even most top players notably dislike luigi. Ally especially lol

It isn't strictly a midlevel grievance.

Absolutely true, but a common argument I've seen is that Luigi is not even the best character. I think that if he were just as strong, but not as simple, he'd be less likely to get changed. My main point is that, regardless of his overall place in the tier list, Luigi's potential to ruin For Glory and locals is a big no-no, in terms of the game's overall health. We can debate over whether or not it's "scrubby" to not like certain tactics when they're beatable (I think it's perfectly reasonable to dislike Luigi's play at any level), but the fact is that if "bad" players think something is really irritating, it behooves developers to pay attention.

 

[Gawain]

You didn't actually point out where people were exaggerating.

And you're not using the term cognitive dissonance correctly. Cognitive dissonance is caused by holding two contradictory belief, like a conservative christian being both pro life and for the death penalty.

Yes I did. If luigi was really as egregious an offender as people are saying,we would see him place better at bigger events. He's just simple, that's all you can really complain about. He's not broken though like some people think.

Also lol, you're the one mistaken. When one is confronted with the facts and cannot deny them, yet they conflict with their beliefs, that generates cognitive dissonance. Regardless of how much people want to deny it with falseified sources and propoganda.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Going back to the Lucas discussion from the previous pages for a bit, I feel as though Lucas players can up his game a little bit competitively by mastering his PSI Magnet. Especially by mastering B-Reversing and Wavebouncing with the move.

It doesn't have the fastest startup time ever, and it has a fair amount of endlag. In conjunction with its small hitbox, it is definitely a punishable move. But it also has some pretty solid rewards if you manage to hit with it, too. At higher percents, it sends the opponent decently far and at a low angle. This is very useful because it makes Lucas's other edgeguarding tools more potent. Hitting with Dair, Bair, and PK Fire in particular becomes easier. And if all else fails, you still have Fair to rely on. Or, if you're feeling extra risky, a second PSI Magnet could seal the deal. Especially against opponents with poorer recovery options.

Lucas can also use this after a SH Airdodge, which removes the airdodge's landing lag. The only other options he has after SHAD are double jump, PK Fire, and of course Zair. So this could be a nasty yet highly situational surprise.


Of course, I still think Ness is better competitively and a lot easier to use, but clever PSI Magnet use could potentially make Lucas a bit more of a threat.

 

[Ray-Den]

Maybe i get hate for this, but i think Roy does well against Luigi

Basically its because of his speed and the large enough disjoints of his attacks, to keep him away. Moving around, avoid the fireballs the best you can. When he just sits there and spams fireballs, just wait until he approaches. Space with neutral air, dtilt jab and after hitting him, retreat and do the same over and over. If he lands with with nair, do any airials, or even upsmash is pretty effective. until he is in kill percents. Then hit him with jab to fair, ftilt or utilt oos. When off-stage, fair or bair will do the rest.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Let's compare Luigi with Robin for a second.

Robin has two locking projectiles that he can use to convert into a grab that he kill from with Uair at 90%. However, to compensate for this, one of those projectiles has to be charged up, so it can't be used repeatedly, and it has a slowish startup that can be adapted to, and the second projectile has such noticeable startup that it can only be used as a punish, and even then, the spacing has to be specific so that he can get the grab afterward. His Dash Grab has very high endlag on top of it, so a miss is fatal, and the Uair kill itself works at highly specific ranges, not to mention so frame tight that JC Usmashes are not uncommon.

And that's not even accounting for the durability.

Theoretically, Robin can kill just as well as Luigi, if not earlier. But, Robin has to be meticulous in the way he goes about getting that grab kill, and he has to risk both his weapon count, and his own hide when getting that grab. But if he gets that grab, it feels heavily rewarding because you know some risk was involved in securing the stock. Robin played specifically, and he got rewarded for the effort.

Luigi has a disjointed fast dash grab that he can throw out in neutral or for a punish in mid-close range, Fireballs that he can lob with little endlag to provide as a cover and force an action that he can punish, and a Dthrow that converts into high damage strings at low percents, and the Cyclone regardless of DI for the KO, with Luigi only needing to consider how fast he's mashing B so he follows the trajectory pattern the opponent's going. If he needs to, he has a Jab, Fair, and Dair with mircoscopic endlag to keep players honest.

Luigi's gameplan is as simple as a Wile E. Coyote episode plot, only it's Luigi that wins in the end (much) more often than not. There's not so much admiration as there is exasperation when he gets the kill, because everyone saw it coming, with it being a question of when rather than if.

 

[Asdioh]

Is there any video/picture evidence of Luigi's (dash?)grab being disjointed? I didn't know disjointed "standard" grabs existed in this game :/ Closest thing we get to grab armor from Brawl?

 

[DunnoBro]

Yes I did. If luigi was really as egregious an offender as people are saying,we would see him place better at bigger events. He's just simple, that's all you can really complain about. He's not broken though like some people think.

Who said (or thinks) he's broken?

You have this nasty habit of acting high and mighty by calling out what no one is doing.

 

[Megamang]

Yes I did. If luigi was really as egregious an offender as people are saying,we would see him place better at bigger events. He's just simple, that's all you can really complain about. He's not broken though like some people think.

Also lol, you're the one mistaken. When one is confronted with the facts and cannot deny them, yet they conflict with their beliefs, that generates cognitive dissonance. Regardless of how much people want to deny it with falseified sources and propoganda.

Let me tell you what I see that I dislike, you tell me if its cognitive dissonance. I usually ramble but im gonna keep this succinct.

I play a luigi in round 1 of bracket. I play a character which can exploit his weakness, I camp him to death with needles/paralyzer, whatever.

He goes to losers bracket, where he plays some people I was playing with earlier in pre-bracket friendlies. He wasn't much better than them, so I think maybe ill see a good match and I hope my friends win.

Instead he realizes early that they can't/don't know to play so afraid of his dodge. Seriously, thats how I won, just being terrified of his grab to the point where I was on platforms the whole game unless I was at advantage and RIGHT on him or he was far enough away that fireballs were disappearing. So he just... dthrows them out of bracket, really.

This goes on until he meets another top threat, who plays well and kills him with shiek needles. Hes out, whatever.

But, he had victims! Two of those guys were at their first tournament, and left right after that. No one told them it was coming, and they feel like they wasted their money. One guy might go online and figure out how to win, but the other isn't coming back.

That is what I dislike. Rather than complaining on smashboards, I try and show people how to survival DI it, and how to avoid the grab and being excessively unsafe, but I don't like it.

My example is neither cognitive dissonance, nor a love essay over luigi.

 

[Nobie]

I think what might get people about Luigi isn't how often he wins tournaments, but how many characters he potentially makes not win tournaments.

Instead of looking at the #1-#8 spots, the question is how Luigi affects pools.

 

[Pyr]

Let me tell you what I see that I dislike, you tell me if its cognitive dissonance. I usually ramble but im gonna keep this succinct.

I play a luigi in round 1 of bracket. I play a character which can exploit his weakness, I camp him to death with needles/paralyzer, whatever.

He goes to losers bracket, where he plays some people I was playing with earlier in pre-bracket friendlies. He wasn't much better than them, so I think maybe ill see a good match and I hope my friends win.

Instead he realizes early that they can't/don't know to play so afraid of his dodge. Seriously, thats how I won, just being terrified of his grab to the point where I was on platforms the whole game unless I was at advantage and RIGHT on him or he was far enough away that fireballs were disappearing. So he just... dthrows them out of bracket, really.

This goes on until he meets another top threat, who plays well and kills him with shiek needles. Hes out, whatever.

But, he had victims! Two of those guys were at their first tournament, and left right after that. No one told them it was coming, and they feel like they wasted their money. One guy might go online and figure out how to win, but the other isn't coming back.

That is what I dislike. Rather than complaining on smashboards, I try and show people how to survival DI it, and how to avoid the grab and being excessively unsafe, but I don't like it.

My example is neither cognitive dissonance, nor a love essay over luigi.

I don't see the point in this. That can happen with literally any other character and isn't Luigi specific. That's the nature of tournaments.

I think what might get people about Luigi isn't how often he wins tournaments, but how many characters he potentially makes not win tournaments.

Instead of looking at the #1-#8 spots, the question is how Luigi affects pools.

See above.

 

[Ray-Den]

Luigi only destroys certain character, or gets destroyed by certain characters. There are hardly any even MUs.

And these characters who lose (hard) to luigi, are screwed in pools

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Which characters actually get "destroyed" by Luigi to the point where they are held back mostly or entirely by him?

 

[Megamang]

I don't see the point in this. That can happen with literally any other character and isn't Luigi specific. That's the nature of tournaments.



See above.

Not to the same extent. Literally, learning the throw combos catapults you to "mid level" if you are willing to really fight tooth and nail for the grabs. Newer players often have to learn their character in a more holistic way.

That said, they moved a little in the right direction with the fair nerf. It made his straight grab damage comboing a little weaker, while opening up some other mixups. They also made FJP easier to land, further extending that combo tree without simply buffing it.

I admire the desire to break into top levels with a character you like, all I ask is you look at the wake of destruction you leave behind. If thats your goal so be it, but you must realize why some people don't like watching lower level players get throw-chopped in two!

And dont compare it to any past smash, because other degeneracy existing doesn't justify others. That said, nerfing just luigi's throws and leaving everything else would be ridiculous, we aren't asking that.

 

[Pyr]

Luigi only destroys certain character, or gets destroyed by certain characters. There are hardly any even MUs.

And these characters who lose (hard) to luigi, are screwed in pools

And? When has that never been true? When have a few characters not been screwed by better characters?

Hell, it's true for Luigi as well, since he has specific top tier matchups that are extremely difficult, and mid/bottom tier matchups that are the same.

I don't see the point you're trying to make, basically. Only 16 people can be top 16. People are going to lose in pools, and there are at least 3 characters that hold matchups so polarizing that you can't solo main some characters. None of those 3 are Luigi. If your character is so screwed, chances are it's not with just Luigi, and chances also are that you don't have a competent secondary character to cope with a sub-par pick.

****, I have to have a secondary for Luigi specifically for a few matchups.

Like, 50 pages or so ago, Luigi was seen as overrated because of his matchup spread. Wish people would make up their mind... Or the 900 new joinees that are complaining today would do so.

 

[Megamang]

No one is saying he isn't overrated - by the way, people were calling him top 3/5 when the overrated train started, that IS overrating him.

People are complaining that he is both bad at the top level and really polarizing/destructive of lower players at a low level, as a luigi main, don't you want that fixed?

Imagine if his throw combo's did 10% less, but ended in a tech read situation that could be a regrab or FJP if you play it correctly. and im not talking about "they dont know the escape option" reads, im talking about real, its up to you and your opponent to duke it out, reads. K, so good luigis get better and bad ones dont rekt newer players. That'd be sweet.

 

[Gawain]

Let me tell you what I see that I dislike, you tell me if its cognitive dissonance. I usually ramble but im gonna keep this succinct.

I play a luigi in round 1 of bracket. I play a character which can exploit his weakness, I camp him to death with needles/paralyzer, whatever.

He goes to losers bracket, where he plays some people I was playing with earlier in pre-bracket friendlies. He wasn't much better than them, so I think maybe ill see a good match and I hope my friends win.

Instead he realizes early that they can't/don't know to play so afraid of his dodge. Seriously, thats how I won, just being terrified of his grab to the point where I was on platforms the whole game unless I was at advantage and RIGHT on him or he was far enough away that fireballs were disappearing. So he just... dthrows them out of bracket, really.

This goes on until he meets another top threat, who plays well and kills him with shiek needles. Hes out, whatever.

But, he had victims! Two of those guys were at their first tournament, and left right after that. No one told them it was coming, and they feel like they wasted their money. One guy might go online and figure out how to win, but the other isn't coming back.

That is what I dislike. Rather than complaining on smashboards, I try and show people how to survival DI it, and how to avoid the grab and being excessively unsafe, but I don't like it.

My example is neither cognitive dissonance, nor a love essay over luigi.

As someone else said, that could happen with many characters. A Sheik could have walked all over those players too. It is up to the players in the end if they want to learn from the experience or not, no one can force them to figure it out. So I wouldn't go around blaming Luigi for it. Lots of good characters are simple, it doesn't mean they should be changed a whole bunch. There's almost always an easy character that ends up being pretty competitively decent, in any fighting game. Luigi (and Mario) fit the bill for this game. Just because a character is easier/harder to play well doesn't mean they should get a great deal more or less bonuses for it.

My other comment was an aside in regards to this thread as a whole, and I wasn't specifically talking about certain people or even directly this topic, though I could have named things I guess.

 

[Pyr]

No one is saying he isn't overrated - by the way, people were calling him top 3/5 when the overrated train started, that IS overrating him.

People are complaining that he is both bad at the top level and really polarizing/destructive of lower players at a low level, as a luigi main, don't you want that fixed?

Imagine if his throw combo's did 10% less, but ended in a tech read situation that could be a regrab or FJP if you play it correctly. and im not talking about "they dont know the escape option" reads, im talking about real, its up to you and your opponent to duke it out, reads. K, so good luigis get better and bad ones dont rekt newer players. That'd be sweet.

No. Anything that leads to the re-enforcement of "complain enough and the devs will nerf it" instead of "I need to figure this out so I stop getting wrecked" is 100% against how I believe a game's competitive functions should develop.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Which characters actually get "destroyed" by Luigi to the point where they are held back mostly or entirely by him?

Mewtwo? Zelda? Other bottom tier trash?

 

[Megamang]

No. Anything that leads to the re-enforcement of "complain enough and the devs will nerf it" instead of "I need to figure this out so I stop getting wrecked" is 100% against how I believe a game's competitive functions should develop.

I suggested a buff, but I gather you aren't even reading my posts. Nvm, I was trying to articulate to you the problems people feel with your character, but if you wanna see him how you see him then I can't prevent that if you won't read my posts.

 

[Mo433]

Mewtwo? Zelda? Other bottom tier trash?

What makes Mewtwo trash against Luigi?

 

[Pyr]

I suggested a buff, but I gather you aren't even reading my posts. Nvm, I was trying to articulate to you the problems people feel with your character, but if you wanna see him how you see him then I can't prevent that if you won't read my posts.

The buff you proposed? It already exists. Luigi already does that.

 

[Diddy Kong]

What makes Mewtwo trash against Luigi?

What makes Mewtwo good against anyone?

 

[Megamang]

The buff you proposed? It already exists. Luigi already does that.

DIing upwards and jumping away has gotten me out of every string earlier than what people complain about, is every luigi I see doing it wrong?

Im mostly annoyed that I die to tornado from throws, but I boost kick people off the ceiling all the time so I can't complain. I see why that sucks, getting boost kicked at 60. I empathize with that, getting gimped is never enjoyable.

-

So next, the conversation turns to luigi's extreme reward from throws, while having a great grab AND grab setup. I don't care if fireball-grab isn't guaranteed, its a valid setup and with proper understanding of how to execute it you will get grabs off of fireballs. Its rough, playing a character that takes you on such a ride from such a hard-to-punish-and-unblockable move. And then a bunch of people "defended him" by throwing out attacks and mentioning... other factors, which are factors. I won't speak for people, but myself... im mostly annoyed that the convo is disjointed and no one is actually responding...

 

[Antonykun]

I didn't know "Luigi" was such a trigger word in this thread

 

[Mo433]

What makes Mewtwo good against anyone?

Other than the top tiers, Mewtwo doesn't really struggle against other characters too badly. Mewtwo isn't terrible against Luigi, since he actually has a easy time walling him out from getting a grab.

 

[Megamang]

To be clear, I just jam my stick upwards with each hit, and then jump when im high in the air. I almost never get regrabbed. Are the luigis near me ****ters, or is it that easy?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Mewtwo? Zelda? Other bottom tier trash?

Thing is, Luigi isn't their only problem, and I really doubt he's their biggest.

I feel like ZSS is a bigger gatekeeper than Luigi.

 

[DunnoBro]

Thing is, Luigi isn't their only problem, and I really doubt he's their biggest.

I feel like ZSS is a bigger gatekeeper than Luigi.

I think ZSS is more indicative of what's behind the gate.

Luigi solidly beats pikachu, mario, sonic, diddy, fox, ness, otherwise good characters which with the exception of ness and fox do very well vs all top tiers.

(Though only pikachu, diddy and mario have examples of top players of those characters being bodied by luigis to my knowledge)

 

[Mo433]

Thing is, Luigi isn't their only problem, and I really doubt he's their biggest.

I feel like ZSS is a bigger gatekeeper than Luigi.

I can agree with this. At least from a Mewtwo perspective. Luigi doesn't really destroy Mewtwo. However ZSS does completely.

 

[Blobface]

Only gripe I really have with Luigi is that his Down-Throw combos into kills*. Having Dash Grab rack percent and kill is just silly, especially since he already has really good kill options with F-smash, U-smash, SJP, and N-air. I kind of like Luigi's combo heavy niche but it's wonky for one plan to land him % and kills.

*while you can DI them as a mixup, there's not really any way to completely avoid them, especially with D-throw --> N-air

 

[meleebrawler]

I find that Mewtwo vs. Luigi is this strange fight where both sides can really stick it to the opponent's worst weaknesses.

Also the Duel of Super Bad Traction Characters is rather amusing.

You know, most people curse poor traction characters due to the shield pushback they incur making it harder to grab punish (especially aggravating with Luigi), but for Mewtwo who generally doesn't like fast characters being in his face it can actually be a godsend for avoiding grabs and pressure. You'll probably appreciate it in this matchup more than anything.

 

[⑨ball]

I think most people's issues with Luigi comes down to risk/reward factor. Most of us can agree what ZSS gets off of throws is great, but the fact that it's first active on frame 16/17 with a total of 68-79 frames means that it's pretty balanced being high risk/high reward.

Meanwhile Luigi with his frame 6/7/8 grab and 28-33 total frames is so low risk/high reward that it makes things like pivot grabbing 4 times in a row happen. It's just a very head turning design when you consider the weakness meant to bring this in line is most likely his mobility/traction.