Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Dre89]

Link's CQC is way better than Tink's. His jab, utilt and grab range are disgusting. It's actually a lot harder to zonebreak Link than Tink because his grab range and jab let him reset to neutral from a lot further away than Tink.

Tink has no range, so you can just powershield walk a lot of his stuff with relative safety. Faster dash speed doesn't mean much when you can barely afford to stay on the ground due to your crap range. Tink gets zonebroken by anyone with a fast ground speed.

Tink is mainly dependent on projectiles for damage. Link uses them more so to make you approach and then punish you with his good CQC. I think Link is convincingly better, character is slept on pretty hard IMO

 

[Iron Kraken]

This isn't really unique to Rosalina. Most characters can do some pretty crazy damage to Fox due to his fall speed. Pikachu's up-throw to up-tilt chains do something like 30-40% to Fox at 0%, and Pikachu edgeguards Fox really easily, but it's still a losing matchup for Pikachu. Fox just controls so much space with his speed that most characters lose to him in neutral too hard to win the MU against him. Luma takes away Fox's neutral dominance just by existing, so that's why Rosalina has the edge ultimately.

Completely agree, she wins because Luma gets in Fox's way and also because Fox gets edge guarded and juggled. The 30% jab still puts an evil smile on my face though.

 

[Illuminose]

To the people saying TL has better frame data read this post:
http://smashboards.com/threads/viab...ive-impressions.410551/page-199#post-20101012


Most of Link's standard attacks hit the same frame as TL's, have better reach and deal more damage. Like I said in the post linked above, Link's fastest ground attack is only 1 frame slower than TL's and his grabs, fastest aerial, and projectiles are the same (starting). Link's DA has an arc like Ike's Fair. I wouldn't say TL's DA and Ftilt are better, just different. Ftilt, Fsmash and DA all have their uses for Link and don't overshadow each other.

Except that Toon Link does have better frame data, objectively. Toon Link's fastest ground option is one frame faster (jab). Toon Link's dash attack is a ton faster, though it is different. But more than that, all of Toon Link's tilts have better frame data than Link's tilts. Forward tilt is 6 frames faster. Up tilt has the same start-up as Link's but 10 frames lower cooldown. Down tilt is 2 frames faster with 6 frames lower cooldown. Both forward smashes have the same start-up, but Toon Link's has a lot less cooldown. Link's up smash is 2 frames faster but has a lot more cooldown on whiff (down smashes are the same essentially). As for aerials: nair is 1 frame faster, fair is the same but a lot stronger, Link has a one frame advantage on back air but Toon Link's is so much stronger, up air is the same (but Link's is stronger), and Link has a pretty significant advantage on down air. And for the arrows, Toon Link has five frames lower cooldown. The difference between their frame data is marked and Toon Link clearly has the overall advantage, even in moves that have the same start-up frames.

Link's specials work differently than TL's but I agree about the boomerang. The gale effect has occasional uses and isn't bad but I'd prefer a hitbox. Zoning characters don't want to be as far as possible; they can't take advantage of openings that way. Can Tink arrow lock? Link's arrows are faster and can punish landings, dodges etc; they work differently than TL's. Link's bombs can kill confirm: throw bomb down>Uair or footstool Nair lock. Z drop bomb>land>Usmash.

TL and Link are ranked the same in recovery and Link is much heavier.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that Link is better than the 'underwhelming' tier he's placed in the OP. I'm only saying that Link isn't that far from TL and has more going for him than some people think.

Link's arrows just plain aren't faster, that's a lie. Toon Link's bomb confirms are A LOT better. Like, so much better that they could probably alone make Toon Link a good amount better than Link. Link has some specific setups, but Toon Link has bomb toss -> insert kill move here. Toon Link's bombs are so much more versatile and practical in terms of leading to kill confirms.

Toon Link has better mobility by a wide margin, including a much faster dash speed and faster walk speed, faster air speed, and twice as fast air accel. Toon Link has better frame data, better projectiles, and better kill confirms. Toon Link's matchup vs Sheik is very doable, and Toon Link has better high/top tier matchups in general. How is Toon Link not significantly better than Link? No, really, Toon Link is a character that could be on the brink of high tier potentially. Link is maybe a mid tier if we're being optimistic.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Completely agree, she wins because Luma gets in Fox's way and also because Fox gets edge guarded and juggled. The 30% jab still puts an evil smile on my face though.

That was strange. It quoted me but I wasn't the one who posted that.
I'm probably losing my mind.

 

[Blobface]

Unfortunately, few people want to devote time to seriously discussing just how the mid/low tiers as a whole really stack up in the metagame. The elites get all the spotlight while the little people and their meta games just have to suffer in obscurity. Unless its Marth or Roy. Any mention of those two usually ends up in the thread getting sidetracked into a 3-4 page discussion on the bishie swords.

Part of the problem with discussing a lot of the mid tier is that so many of them are card carrying members of the I-Have-a-Terrible-Matchup-Against-an-Insane-Naruto-Cosplayer-with-a-Needle-Obsession club (IHTMAINCNO). Most mid-tiers are perfectly functional, viable characters that just don't have a chance against all the Sheiks that will be at a tourney. Since the only answer to "why is this character mid-tier" is "loses to Sheik", discussion inevitably goes back to "Sheik is dumb".

And before someone says it, yes, there will always be a top tier character, and yes, characters with a bad matchup against that character are always going to suffer. But all the top tiers but Sheik have perceived bad matchups that keep them in check, and the only characters that even come close to Sheik in "gatekeeping" viability are ZSS and Rosa, who could also use some reasonable changes.

"If you remove her major zoning tool, Shiek isn't as good at zoning anymore!"

This is the post that clicking on that quote leads to.

Wat.

One more thing: Sonic vs Captain Falcon. Captain Falcon is punished wayyyyyyyyyyyyy harder for mistakes than Sonic meaning he can't "camp" as effectively as sonic and is basically unable to time you out. And also, Captain Falcon will at least make your death quick unlike Sonic who, being a Hedgehog, literally pokes you to death.

 

[Locke 06]

Except that Toon Link does have better frame data, objectively.

No. That is a subjective statement. "Toon Link has better frame data on his up tilt" is an objective statement.

Stop being bad at reading numbers if you're going to try and make an objective argument.

Sincerely, Link's landing lag.

 

[Rizen]

Except that Toon Link does have better frame data, objectively. Toon Link's fastest ground option is one frame faster (jab). Toon Link's dash attack is a ton faster, though it is different. But more than that, all of Toon Link's tilts have better frame data than Link's tilts. Forward tilt is 6 frames faster. Up tilt has the same start-up as Link's but 10 frames lower cooldown. Down tilt is 2 frames faster with 6 frames lower cooldown. Both forward smashes have the same start-up, but Toon Link's has a lot less cooldown. Link's up smash is 2 frames faster but has a lot more cooldown on whiff (down smashes are the same essentially). As for aerials: nair is 1 frame faster, fair is the same but a lot stronger, Link has a one frame advantage on back air but Toon Link's is so much stronger, up air is the same (but Link's is stronger), and Link has a pretty significant advantage on down air. And for the arrows, Toon Link has five frames lower cooldown. The difference between their frame data is marked and Toon Link clearly has the overall advantage, even in moves that have the same start-up frames.

Link's arrows just plain aren't faster, that's a lie. Toon Link's bomb confirms are A LOT better. Like, so much better that they could probably alone make Toon Link a good amount better than Link. Link has some specific setups, but Toon Link has bomb toss -> insert kill move here. Toon Link's bombs are so much more versatile and practical in terms of leading to kill confirms.

Toon Link has better mobility by a wide margin, including a much faster dash speed and faster walk speed, faster air speed, and twice as fast air accel. Toon Link has better frame data, better projectiles, and better kill confirms. Toon Link's matchup vs Sheik is very doable, and Toon Link has better high/top tier matchups in general. How is Toon Link not significantly better than Link? No, really, Toon Link is a character that could be on the brink of high tier potentially. Link is maybe a mid tier if we're being optimistic.

I admit I don't know all the ins and outs of TL so you might be right. I'm curious to see his tournament results? If he's getting good results I can't argue with that.

I think you are thinking of Link's moves as if he was played like TL and that wouldn't work. As @ Locke 06 said, Link has little landing lag and benefits from hopping from platform to platform. Like I stated in a previous post Link has multi-hit moves designed to punish dodges or hit from frame traps. Fair cuts twice and is great for walling out opponents or SH Fair over an opponent's attack to hit with the 2nd cut. If Link uses his 3 hit Usmash he should be sure he has a good read; otherwise he'd Utilt. If he's not recklessly throwing out committing moves he's less punishable. Link is heavy and can survive a long time which helps with his high risk/reward moves.
One of Link's problems is he needs to keep retreating to space his moves but Ftilt is great when pivoted. It's frame 15 but hits behind Link>above>in front>down in front under the stage and covers Link's body. If you use it right it's hard to punish.

(This was from Brawl but is about the same as SSB4, I don't have SSB4 hitbubble pics :/)
Ftilt also does more damage and has twice the BKB of TL's Ftilt.
Link's moves have much better range than TL's; you have to remember that. When Link Utlts it hits above the lower BF platforms; TL's doesn't. Toon Link has less end lag but Link has better reach and the same start up.

I meant Link's arrows fly faster and therefore can be used to punish landings/dodges on reaction. They can also lock unteched bounce landings. TL's bombs do seem better for landing KOs I can't argue with that. Link however can plant bombs on stage like Snake's grenades to have active hitboxes protecting him. Link does have trouble landing kill moves but he can Dthrow>Uair at kill %s (reading DI) and potentially kill at 80% depending on variables. Link's MU with Sheik is just hell so TL wins there.
Like I said before TL's camping/zoning beats Link's because TL's mobility. If they had the same mobility Link would be the better camper because better reach, less landing lag, 2 hit Zair and bombs planted onstage.

I don't want to downplay TL's mobility and less end laggy moves. In Smash safe zoning>high risk/reward. TL has the safer zoning no doubt. I'm just trying to show how Link's moves are used very differently than TL's and have benefits TL's don't.

 

[Physics]

Could we talk about what makes Ness so much more prominent than Lucas in tournaments? Is it similar to the Marth/Lucina situation where Ness is everything that is Lucas but greater?

 

[Illuminose]

No. That is a subjective statement. "Toon Link has better frame data on his up tilt" is an objective statement.

Stop being bad at reading numbers if you're going to try and make an objective argument.

Sincerely, Link's landing lag.

Not ignored, Toon Link having 2 short hop autocancels as opposed to Link's 1. Worse landing lag on fair/uair/dair but Toon Link's frame data is still overall better. It is an objective statement that Toon Link has better overall frame data. Overall, a Toon Link's kit is faster/less laggy outside the landing lag on a few aerials. Instead of being facetious/arguing semantics read the numbers yourself instead of nitpicking for no reason.

Oh and @ Rizen I know their moves serve different functions but the argument was frame data (and I'd still argue that Toon Link's kit is overall better).

 

[Rizen]

Not ignored, Toon Link having 2 short hop autocancels as opposed to Link's 1. Worse landing lag on fair/uair/dair but Toon Link's frame data is still overall better. It is an objective statement that Toon Link has better overall frame data. Overall, a Toon Link's kit is faster/less laggy outside the landing lag on a few aerials. Instead of being facetious/arguing semantics read the numbers yourself instead of nitpicking for no reason.

Oh and @ Rizen I know their moves serve different functions but the argument was frame data (and I'd still argue that Toon Link's kit is overall better).

No one ever denied TL's lag was less. Frame data matters but so does reach and weight; that's why Shulk isn't ranked in last place.
I'm still curious about TL's tournament results.

 

[Blobface]

Could we talk about what makes Ness so much more prominent than Lucas in tournaments? Is it similar to the Marth/Lucina situation where Ness is everything that is Lucas but greater?

It's really hard to evaluate Lucas right now because he has very little representation. Only Lucas player I know of is Pink Fresh.

 

[PK Gaming]

Could we talk about what makes Ness so much more prominent than Lucas in tournaments? Is it similar to the Marth/Lucina situation where Ness is everything that is Lucas but greater?

Not quite

Lucas has his own merits, but Ness's infamously potent kill throw, great grab game and solid aerials make him a better character

 

[Patriot Duck]

Could we talk about what makes Ness so much more prominent than Lucas in tournaments? Is it similar to the Marth/Lucina situation where Ness is everything that is Lucas but greater?

Ness and Lucas play so fundamentally differently that saying "Ness is better than Lucas" is like saying "Sheik is better than Luigi". It may be true, but it doesn't invalidate the lesser character nor does it rob them of a niche in the metagame. The only notable similarities between them are their weight and the size of their hurtboxes. This isn't like Marth/Lucina where one of them is identical to the other except worse. Almost all of Ness's and Lucas's moves have applications for different situations, to the point where comparing them holds little meaning.

The real problem, like Blobface said, is a lack of representation. He's just too new right now.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Could we talk about what makes Ness so much more prominent than Lucas in tournaments? Is it similar to the Marth/Lucina situation where Ness is everything that is Lucas but greater?

Ness doesn't outclass Lucas at all, both characters have very different properties on their moves. The main advantage Ness has is a regular grab as opposed to Lucas's tether grab, though Lucas is better at zoning with PK Fire and Zair. Ness I think is overall better in addition to being easier to play, though. Lucas can be kind of a tricky character to play, and you can generally get better results with other characters more easily, so he gets left behind along with any number of middling characters in the same boat. He's not strictly outclassed because his differences when compared to Ness are too great, much larger than Marth/Lucina or even Mario/Doc.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

What are the chances that ZeRo is the main reason Sheik is regarded so highly and is in her own tier list relative to the rest of the characters? Is it a flat out 0% ?

I, in my very inexperienced opinion, think that even though she is the best, there isn't all that much of a gigantic gap between her and the rest of the top 10. That no matter how good she is wewe still overestimated her a lot because of Zero. @ Ffamran made a very lovely post a while ago regarding memes and low tiers. I think it's the same issue here but in reverse.

(Please do not murder me I just have been wondering about this for a while and wanted to get your input)

Edit: its not my point that it's only ZeRo making her look good. I know she got more reps but yeah him being the best made me type his name in)

Because when ZeRo uses sheik, very few characters in the game has a Decent enough MU against her to compete with ZeRo to the point of winning when facing ZeRo. @ Shaya I'm rather curious on how you would access this situation. So far only (lol) and (only during winner finals at Smash Con) are the only characters that has given ZeRo a Serious run for his money and that's it. Also about Mr.R sheik, one thing MANY PEOPLE seem to overlook about his play-style is that he rarely uses needles which I don't understand why and he rarely goes off-stage (now look at Vinnie @ Pax and compare their edge-guarding.. Perfect example was when he played ImRip , he loss to him during game 2 where he were approaching him rather then abusing needles, then in game 3, he pretty much started to use needles a lot more and convincingly won game 3. Same thing happened with Ally in Top 8. Many people already says that a campy sheik is one of the most annoying things to face. Not to discredit Ally or anything , he played extremely well vs Mr.R.
Also I think Mr.R might have a weakness in the MU, I mean MVD has beaten him twice, with Paragon being more dominate and ZeRo 3-0'ed him at EVO. Now look at Vinnie vs MVD and ZeRo at Pax. For me at least either loses to human error, wins, or bodies a character at any given point at this point.

 

[Dre89]

Except that Toon Link does have better frame data, objectively. Toon Link's fastest ground option is one frame faster (jab). Toon Link's dash attack is a ton faster, though it is different. But more than that, all of Toon Link's tilts have better frame data than Link's tilts. Forward tilt is 6 frames faster. Up tilt has the same start-up as Link's but 10 frames lower cooldown. Down tilt is 2 frames faster with 6 frames lower cooldown. Both forward smashes have the same start-up, but Toon Link's has a lot less cooldown. Link's up smash is 2 frames faster but has a lot more cooldown on whiff (down smashes are the same essentially). As for aerials: nair is 1 frame faster, fair is the same but a lot stronger, Link has a one frame advantage on back air but Toon Link's is so much stronger, up air is the same (but Link's is stronger), and Link has a pretty significant advantage on down air. And for the arrows, Toon Link has five frames lower cooldown. The difference between their frame data is marked and Toon Link clearly has the overall advantage, even in moves that have the same start-up frames.

Link's arrows just plain aren't faster, that's a lie. Toon Link's bomb confirms are A LOT better. Like, so much better that they could probably alone make Toon Link a good amount better than Link. Link has some specific setups, but Toon Link has bomb toss -> insert kill move here. Toon Link's bombs are so much more versatile and practical in terms of leading to kill confirms.

Toon Link has better mobility by a wide margin, including a much faster dash speed and faster walk speed, faster air speed, and twice as fast air accel. Toon Link has better frame data, better projectiles, and better kill confirms. Toon Link's matchup vs Sheik is very doable, and Toon Link has better high/top tier matchups in general. How is Toon Link not significantly better than Link? No, really, Toon Link is a character that could be on the brink of high tier potentially. Link is maybe a mid tier if we're being optimistic.

He's not better because he can't do anything if you just powershield walk his stuff. You can afford to be patient because he has really low reward on hit. He also has a really bad disadvantaged state at mid-low percents because he has no range, he's floaty and bomb pulls aren't safe until higher percents.

His crap range makes him really jump reliant to camp and do damage, but his range and floatiness make his jumps and landings super punishable by anyone with good ground speed.

He has zero shield pressure so he can't do anything to people who just powershield walk. Link can at least grab someone from like a third of FD's length away. Link can punish approaches from a much longer distance, and has much better CQC thanks to jab and utilt, which makes him a lot safer.

Link is only worse if you try play him like Tink. Tink is more about jumping around and camping, then getting confirms off bombs. Link plays differently. He's more like a heavy, He's more ground based, using projectiles to force approaches then using his range to punish them before they can get to him. Link is upper mid for me and Tink is lower mid.

 

[Vipermoon]

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Toon Link
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link

Toon Link's landing lag is horrible. Worse than Link in almost every situation. Same goes for autocancel. Link on the other hand has really good landing lag for his weight.

 

[Shaya]

Neo is playing Marth in grand finals against boss right now after Sheik let him down.

He's won the first game and is in the lead for the second right now, although Neo's gotten most of his stocks with counter thus far... lol
And dtilt, our safest poke, is being shown as a guaranteed dash grab for Luigi if fireballs clash with it :<

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

And neo lost :<
Shame, but watching that match up is so silly. It's just like every other match up Luigi wins, it's just marth has the ability to slow down how many dash grabs inputs one can do per second, but that doesn't stop Luigi always having the most presence in neutral and stage control and the disgusting damage output/kills from grabs on Marth's very dash grabbable move set.

I was generally pretty annoyed/disappointed watching Xanadu today...
Luigi's existence is such an eye sore #_# Nothing but "nothing" and "dash grab", nothing sometimes including fireballs and sh double aerials.
Players who lose a set in a time out looking disappointed and a stream chat getting mad yet who was playing disingenuously here? The guy who only uses 3 moves out of their entire 20+ action moveset, one of them likely monstrously more seen than any other by a factor of two to three times or the guy attacking, pressuring and making commitments while only being spot dodged and back rolled as a response until dash grab lands (he switched to Kirby for the time out loss and basically played the same way as he would with Luigi)...
Seriously the saddest thing to exist in this game (as the highest exposure region for smash4), makes everything else that's starting to look amazing .. crap.

I don't know if I can watch Xanadu's anymore while Luigi is as stupid as it is. What's the point of watching 10+ Luigi sets every week showing the exact same thing in essentially every match up over and over again? GOOD PLAYERS who we know can get results at major-regional and even national level, losing to a character who just buffers dash grab... -.-

 

[Ffamran]

And dtilt, our safest poke, is being shown as a guaranteed dash grab for Luigi if we clash with it :<

Wait... Clash with what? If it's clanking with Fireball, then I can see that, but with one of Luigi's normals? ... What? That... Wasn't it confirmed that recoil is the same for both players? At the same time, Marth should be outranging Luigi, especially against his Dtilt, so... What?

Unrelated, but why does Rosalina (& Luma)'s jab kill early when Bowser Jr., Triple D, and Zelda's are kind of the same? Rosalina's jab 3 does 3%, has 48 base, and 80 growth, but Rosalina's rapid jab finisher does 3%, has 60 base, and 150 growth - used to be 170 pre-patch 1.0.8 -, Luma's jab 3 does 4%, has 60 base, and 150 growth while rapid jab finisher does 3%, has 60 base, and 130 growth. Okay... Zelda's last part of jab also does 3%, has 35 base, and 130 growth, Triple D's rapid jab finisher does 3%, has 80 base, and 150 growth, and Bowser Jr.'s rapid jab 3 does 3%, has 60 base, and 170 growth. None of those kill early except for Rosalina & Luma's.

This is also the same with her Uair versus Falco's Uair. Pre-patch 1.0.8 Falco's Uair was stronger than Rosalina's, but not by a lot. It was just some more knockback. Now, it's just as strong, just as fast, and does less 1% less than pre-patch and Rosalina's clean hit 11%. In both cases, Falco's Uair kills later than Rosalina's. I don't know if it's just the vertical range her Uair has or somehow, her numbers don't make sense which more or less feels like the game's lying to us.

 

[Shaya]

Yes, Fireball.
I just really dislike that between Melee and Brawl we lost the universal ability to reflect projectiles with power shields, and between Brawl and Smash4 we lost the ability to clank (as safely, people could bait this and capitalize in Brawl still) with projectiles to destroy them for approach. The latter being a fundamental notion to platformer mechanics...

That change is enough to make a match up where in all prior games it was in Marth's favour, to the exact opposite. Because of the culling of yet another universal mechanic that gave counterplay to strong tools. It was nice of them to keep those two counterplay mechanics, combine and mangle them, and then apply it only to Dedede's gordos though.

At least they generally nerfed the power levels of projectiles in this game, but that's why people have so many issues with Sheik's needles and Luigi's fireballs. They're just as strong as some of the best brawl projectiles yet we have less options to deal with them (well, super long range fast safe transcended projectiles that allow follow ups having negligible counter play in any smash game; so are projectiles which are safe on block point blank that can be shot 2 times a second).

 

[thehard]

between Brawl and Smash4 we lost the ability to clank (as safely, people could bait this and capitalize in Brawl still) with projectiles to destroy them for approach.

Could you explain what makes this less safe in Smash 4?

 

[TTTTTsd]

I feel like universal PS reflecting would really hurt one of the characters I play (@ Ryu) and would be pretty detrimental to him honestly =(. As interesting as it was, I don't think its exclusion was entirely unwarranted on a global scale.

 

[Green L]

I don't understand why Luigi's fireballs are a threat only in smash 4 but not the previous games. I hope everyone knows that fireball to grab never was guaranteed since version 1.0 and it's the opponents fault for not reacting fast enough

 

[Shaya]

Could you explain what makes this less safe in Smash 4?

Edit for clarity ignore the previous:
100%: When you clank with ground moves you experience hit lag and then suffer a "reeling" animation (stepping back usually in a "WHOA" like fashion), this would cancel any end lag the move normally would have. In smash4 that animation is significantly laggier. Probably purely for the cinematic benefit or epic effect without thinking about how it applies to dealing with other scenarios (just like Ryu's 1.8x modifiers causing sudden realisation it hurt him significantly for shield safety).

Aerials continue their animations as they're uninterruptible (like mac ftilt, jiggs da).

It's possible the amount of hit lag you experience is higher as well but after looking at the replays by eye can't see a notable difference.

I could probably search around and find out somewhere someone found out the animation length of that action in Brawl, but I have not heard of someone looking at it properly in S4. I was also looking at a brawl vid to compare; I'd guess the animation is near instant in Brawl and somewhere between 100-200% laggier in S4 (at least for Marth... for all I know it's different for every character #_#).

-

Characters with very low landing lag "protective" aerials have an advantage at dealing with approaching projectiles; but for Marth who's landing lag on his aerials was doubled (in fair's case, originally 2.25x slower) it's a death wish. Based Sheik forward air and various character's nairs~
Generally his best option in Brawl was to walk and jab, and it was the best option for a lot of characters actually, but now they're being easily and reliably punished for attempting such a thing.

 

[Yonder]

I don't understand why Luigi's fireballs are a threat only in smash 4 but not the previous games. I hope everyone knows that fireball to grab never was guaranteed since version 1.0 and it's the opponents fault for not reacting fast enough

I also want to know this. Forgive my ignorance, but is it because Luigi is a *bit* faster mobility wise in this game and other projectiles have more ending lag added to them? [Falco, for example]

I'm not totally sure, cause playin Brawl again, Luigi's fireballs are pretty dang faster, almost feeling faster than Smash 4. Or maybe the answer is that Luigi's fireballs in Brawl have less hitstun so it doesn't let him confirm grabs as easily [and his grab had more endlag in Brawl]

Someone help, I feel dumb.

 

[Pyr]

I'm not totally sure, cause playin Brawl again, Luigi's fireballs are pretty dang faster, almost feeling faster than Smash 4. Or maybe the answer is that Luigi's fireballs in Brawl have less hitstun so it doesn't let him confirm grabs as easily [and his grab had more endlag in Brawl]

Someone help, I feel dumb.

IIRC they were faster. They traveled faster, I mean. Meant that the opponent got hit further away than they currently do. Combine it with Luigi's lesser speed and a pure grab followup just wasn't possible like it currently is. (and, by currently is, I mean only specific ranges that change based on the opponent's frame data)

Edit: Got home and dusted off my Wii. Visually, they seem about the same speed, but Smash 4 goes slightly farther. Just quickly eyeing it, since it's bed time. Luigi being overall slower in Brawl is still a big part of why it's didn't work out like it does in Smash 4.

Hitstun might of done it, as well, but I think the main issue is something Shaya pointed out, earlier: projectiles were better on average. How are you going to approach with a fireball when you're dealing with things like Grenades eating them, double lasers chipping you away, Ice blocks blocking them, and Olimar in general? It was more of a zone control tool in Brawl because of those 2 reasons.

Melee Fireball:

Total: 46
Fireball comes out: 17
Fireball lasts: 50 frames

Brawl Fireball

Total: 46
IASA: 41
Fireball comes out: 17
Fireball lasts: 48 frames

Smash 4 Fireball

Total 43 (keep in mind this was 40 originally)
IASA 43 (iirc personal testing don't murder me shaya!)
Fireball comes out: 17
Fireball lasts: Haven't tested + didn't find a reliable source for this info

I think the main issue is that Brawl Fireball traveled further, faster, making grab followups almost impossible. Good to know his Fireball might be the best it's ever been, though.

Edit: Move speed for Luigi + grab frame data make it significantly harder/impossible. Still the best fireball has ever been.

I think Luigi's faster initial dash speed and Luigi's new animation in his dash grab may be a part of it. They let him grab significantly faster without exposing his hurtbox as much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXtQdC5OpE4&t=3m01s

In Brawl Luigi leans back slightly, then lunges forward, and then grabs you, with a small skip if he misses. It's a very noticeable sequence that can be adapted to. Now, he just jukes his arm out (with disjoint) and is ready to go almost instantly once he's done. Luigi just has so much safety involved in his new dash grab when at mid-close range that makes it really hard to react to, even with Fireballs being swatted away, and one slight hesitation gets you taken for a ride for 30% or a KO.

To add:

Brawl Luigi Dash Grab:

Running Grab
Total: 39
Grab: 12-13

Compared to Smash 4:

Dash Grab:
Grab: 8-9

So it's 4 frames faster in Smash 4. A definite, not-insignificant amount.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I think Luigi's faster initial dash speed and Luigi's new animation in his dash grab may be a part of it. They let him grab significantly faster without exposing his hurtbox as much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXtQdC5OpE4&t=3m01s

In Brawl Luigi leans back slightly, then lunges forward, and then grabs you, with a small skip if he misses. It's a very noticeable sequence that can be adapted to. Now, he immediately lunges forward, jukes his arm out (with disjoint) and is ready to go almost instantly once he's done. Luigi just has so much safety involved in his new dash grab when at mid-close range that makes it really hard to react to, even with Fireballs being swatted away, and one slight hesitation gets you taken for a ride for 30% or a KO.

 

[meleebrawler]

We like Melee powershielding because Falco's Blaster existed.

 

[Browny]

I don't know if I can watch Xanadu's anymore while Luigi is as stupid as it is. What's the point of watching 10+ Luigi sets every week showing the exact same thing in essentially every match up over and over again? GOOD PLAYERS who we know can get results at major-regional and even national level, losing to a character who just buffers dash grab... -.-

Hmmm... this sounds like...

I don't know if I can watch Brawl anymore while MK is as stupid as it is. What's the point of watching 10+ MK sets every week showing the exact same thing in essentially every match up over and over again? GOOD PLAYERS who we know can get results at major-regional and even national level, losing to a character who just fairs and dtilts... -.-

DONT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE TWICE SMASH BACK ROOM

BAN LUIGI

 

[Green L]

I also want to know this. Forgive my ignorance, but is it because Luigi is a *bit* faster mobility wise in this game and other projectiles have more ending lag added to them? [Falco, for example ]

Luigi's fireballs are much slower and less range than falco's lazers hence the less endlag. I'll say it again: Fireball to grab never was guaranteed. It only worked when the opponent didn't react fast enough. I thought everyone knew that. You can simply perfect shield them because they're so slow

 

[Antonykun]

Luigi's fireballs are much slower and less range than falco's lazers hence the less endlag. I'll say it again: Fireball to grab never was guaranteed. It only worked when the opponent didn't react fast enough. I thought everyone knew that. You can simply perfect shield them because they're so slow

Fireball to grab was just the icing on the cake. It's the fact that Luigi has a really good long range tool that makes it a chore to camp him out (your only real option against him cuz you ain't beating that CQC with your own CQC)

Fireballs are a problem in this game because Smash 4 Luigi practically destroys everyone up close and Fireballs are a good projectile that makes your only real option against him WAY less effective

 

[Green L]

Luigi's fireballs are not long range. You can beat them by

1. Power shielding
2. Reflect if your character has one
3. Jab them
4. Crawl if your character can and is small enough
5. Simply walk out of its short range
6. Use your projectile if your character has one

Luigi's fireball spam can be defeated. Not to mention it's hard for luigi to get the grab in the first place since luigi has below average ground speed, the slowest airspeed in the game, and the worst traction in smash 4

 

[Nobie]

I find that Mewtwo vs. Luigi is this strange fight where both sides can really stick it to the opponent's worst weaknesses.

Also the Duel of Super Bad Traction Characters is rather amusing.

 

[Antonykun]

Luigi's fireballs are not long range.

this is about Fireballs maximum range, if THAT is not considered long range my I need to re learn fighting game vocabulary

You can beat them by

1. Power shielding
2. Reflect if your character has one
3. Jab them
4. Crawl if your character can and is small enough
5. Simply walk out of its short range
6. Use your projectile if your character has one

Luigi's fireball spam can be defeated.

ANY kind of spam can be defeated even Sheik's Needle spam can be beaten. That's not the point
The point is Luigi is really good at close range and he has a tool to pressure you at range

Not to mention it's hard for luigi to get the grab in the first place since luigi has below average ground speed, the slowest airspeed in the game, and the worst traction in smash 4

His dash grab propells him really far and his amazing frame data makes you want to shield to beat it which opens you up for grabs
He really only needs one grab to make up for all that time he's not grabbing you

 

[bc1910]

I don't think needle "spam" is as good as fireball spam. Needles aren't that good for traditional spamming. A single needle takes close to 50 frames for the total animation to finish and only does like 1 damage.

I find that interesting but it doesn't really matter because it's just not how Sheik camps.

The stupid crap arises from the ability to charge needles, I feel. The unreactable startup on charged needles, with their damage actually being threatening, forces approaches, and you have the fact Sheik can shield and roll cancel the startup. If all Sheik could do was throw one needle they'd be much less problematic. Still good because of the unreactable startup and transcendent priority but not best zoner in the game level.

 

[Green L]

The point is, people are treating fireball to grab as if it's a broken tactic like Ice Climbers' wobbling. It's not. Those people complaining about Luigi should also mention his flaws

 

[Antonykun]

The point is, people are treating fireball to grab as if it's a broken tactic like Ice Climbers' wobbling. It's not. Those people complaining about Luigi should also mention his flaws

I can kind of see what they mean by it, Luigi probably has frame advanatge on fire balls near maximum distance (not enough to guarantee a grab IIRC, I highly doubt that anyone with a deep understanding can compare Luigi's fireball into grab to wobbling heck even Luigi to Ice Climbers.

 

[Shaya]

I don't believe anyone compared Luigi's stuff to Ice Climber's wobbling...
Not many characters have a tool to get through fireballs to encroach Luigi, they're either Sheik's fair or longer-range zoning tools. This stifles neutral for a lot of characters in a degenerative way.

You mention jabbing them yet that's exactly the mechanical change between games that have made it a lot more potent, the lag of clanking with a move being longer gives Luigi a free PUNISH on most characters (I've only been talking about grab but he can do more).
That's what I said, not fireball to grab.
To clarify again, fireballs are neutral to positive on shield, this gives Luigi an immense amount of pressure that gets him grabs. You can't shield drop action for a lot of characters, that's too slow, so roll/jump/spot dodge; good option spread. Yes you can power shield and attack but you cannot move without waiting seven frames (!). Luigi can shoot another fireball (you're out of luck with that superfluous power shield) or dash up smash with invincibility to cover the rest too, goody.

And yes, Luigi hitting you with a fireball is hilariously less frame advantage than hitting a shield or clanking. These should not be giving Luigi "guaranteed grabs", I don't think a single person has said that in this thread's ENTIRE 200 pages thus far, FYI.

And we've discussed his flaws to death as well, we know; that's why he isn't no.1 in the game and has poor match ups. That doesn't give him a free pass from his horrendous design decisions though.

 

[Ffamran]

I also want to know this. Forgive my ignorance, but is it because Luigi is a *bit* faster mobility wise in this game and other projectiles have more ending lag added to them? [Falco, for example]

For the record, Falco's Blaster end lag was always there in Melee and in Brawl. Removing its ability to auto-cancel forced everyone to see the end lag people pretend never existed in past games. Samus's Missile I think had both end lag increased and removable of auto-cancel, so that's a big deal and Mario's Fireball used to have end lag similar to Luigi's from what I remember someone mentioning here, but about 10 frames were added from Brawl to Smash 4.

 

[Luco]

It's really hard to evaluate Lucas right now because he has very little representation. Only Lucas player I know of is Pink Fresh.

It's on the low down right now, but Mekos is back and he's training to be up there again.

Now we just need the flashy tech-based FAE and we have our crystal gems guardian Lucas trio back. <3