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I seriously doubt that, the same person called frame data ambiguous..... not trying to call anyone out, but I am not the only who mentioned this.
Can you describe exactly how you changed your playstyle?
I shot luma out, I never pulled Luma back.
Surprised I got a mention, but thanks (even though it probably wasn't worth a mention lol)! That was the only tournament I've been to in the last 5 months.
beats pretty hard ever since the nerfs. Keep in mind that pre-patch, Diddy had a GUARANTEED hoo-hah kill against Rosa if she got grabbed around 90-100, which was ridiculous. He was also able to kill Luma with all of his aerials, and kill Rosa ridiculously early in general. But now, he doesn't have the guaranteed hoo-hah KO, he doesn't kill Luma easily, and it can be very hard for him to land his kill set ups. It's a COMPLETELY different match up compared to what it was before the patch. Rosa wins it solidly now.. At low %s, a boost grab to up-throw to jab literally does ~36% to Fox, which is pretty lolzy. She edge guards and kills him really easily in general, and Fox just has a hard time dealing with Luma., and she bodies many mid and lower tiers, which means she's always going to be a force in the Smash 4 meta game. It's just that she's never going to be quite at the top because she has losing match ups against several of the top, commonly used characters.
Fixed.
Memes.
Because Falcon doesn't play defensively, ever.
He's voiced by vegeta.
Mu is defintly bad for since Rosalina can genrally hinder alot of fox's approach options with luma alone. Not to mention that dumb Up throw to jab shenanigans, Off stage luma desynch edgeguard shenanigans, and Luma can also absorbs Laser's. This is defintly one of fox's worse matchup's. Not sure if it's worse then the MU but it's pretty close.Well you see my dear watson everybody hate's sonic cause of his annoying playstlye and terrible games.
Nitro (NorCal, 13th on PR) is quite good. Dual mains Pika with Luigi.
Sorry to bring this up, but could we at least seperate the Middle Class from the peasants? Smash 4 is balanced enough to say that the distribution of viability from top half to the bottom half is better than the economic distribution during the Dark Ages in medieval Europe.People are trying way too hard on these tier lists. Lets be honest the meta at the moment is pretty much:
The Smash 4 Queen
The Smash 4 Aristocracy
The Royal Court
The guys guarding the gate
The Peasants
The invading general from the East
(Note: Character are listed in alphabetical order for each group)
Any arguing over hypothetical spots like whether or not Pikachu is top 5 or if Peach/Pit/Lucario/Ike are high tier is pretty much petty bickering among nobles/court jesters at this point. My list might be subject to debate but anyone who's been following the meta and this thread has a pretty good idea on what the general consensus is in terms of where the roster currently ranks in the meta.
Falcon is a lot flashier and people like that. Style outweighs a lot of things to the common public (sometimes even myself, I'm a sucker for it, FGC background), whereas Sonic can be viewed as occasionally (or in some cases, usually) unentertaining, a good Falcon always gets people excited because of, well, style.
Nah.
It's still a problematic term to use because it implies that each move has an inherent, consistent value that determines whether it beats out another hitbox or not. Even if we used some objective definition for the term like "Hitbox size : amount of startup frames" it still wouldn't be consistent because there are situation where hitbox size is the determining factor and there are situations where the startup lag is the determining factor. It often depends on context.
A +1 advantage equals "bodying" somebody now?Rosa also definitely bodies
It should be really obvious, but... Falcon has big strengths and big weaknesses. Falcon hits you, he can combo you and do big damage. You hit Falcon, you can combo him and do big damage. Sonic hits you, he might get big damage. You hit Sonic, he'll likely invincible spring away, and then run away at max speed and reset to neutral whenever he wants. You get Falcon offstage, he's likely to die. You get Sonic offstage, he's likely to recover. Basically, Falcon's not nearly as good at running away as Sonic is. Yeah he's scary at a certain distance, but if he wasn't, then he'd be a bad character again.
Ugh, semantics. Rosa beats Fox "very solidly," in my opinion.A +1 advantage equals "bodying" somebody now?
..."Priority" does not refer to a literal value on a hitbox. In some games this actually happens (usually for projectiles) but this is rarely what anyone ever means when they mention it. It considers not only startup frames, but actives, hitbox size, hurtbox size, invincibility frames, ect ect. It's more of a concept, or a tendency, not necessarily a "value" or a specific "flag" that pre-determines what move wins.
The statement "good frame data" alone is quite ambigious.
Pretty sure most people agree it's Ike=>Roy > Marth > Lucina.
= optimal " full stop. When he was falling off it was easy enough to say that people had "figured out" that character's aggression. But I think this was actually a case of people not considering the broader context of his poor performance. Now he's back in focus and has beaten someone who had never lost to a Sonic before, including the so-called "optimal" type. by playing very aggro at the same tournament where Choco took Ranai out of winners. This, in conjunction with the fact that 6WX fared better against Nick Riddle than any of the FL-native hedgehogs, suggests that at least a few MUs can benefit from less passive tactics. I'm willing to bet that there are others besides Pika/ZSS, and that Sonics should look to be more flexible in the way that they approach them (pun intended ).
Loving the in depth analysis.
Djent
Unfortunately, Sonic has been characterized by the masses that Sonic plays defensively from the other prominent Sonics (Static Manny for example) and once a stigma like that gets pegged on a character, it's hard shake that off. Hopefully, other Sonics can learn to add rushdown in their repertoire.
She's the best at everything but killing. But is still top tier at that.
The **** are you on about
Sheik is just a very versitile character. She's good in everything and excels at.....
I'm pretty sure sheik can easily kill light weights and low mid weights. Also she has 50/50's and great edgeguarding to make up her lack of killing on stage.
There's really only one guy who'd put Roy above Marth...
Most of Link's standard attacks hit the same frame as TL's, have better reach and deal more damage. Like I said in the post linked above, Link's fastest ground attack is only 1 frame slower than TL's and his grabs, fastest aerial, and projectiles are the same (starting). Link's DA has an arc like Ike's Fair. I wouldn't say TL's DA and Ftilt are better, just different. Ftilt, Fsmash and DA all have their uses for Link and don't overshadow each other.
Link's specials work differently than TL's but I agree about the boomerang. The gale effect has occasional uses and isn't bad but I'd prefer a hitbox. Zoning characters don't want to be as far as possible; they can't take advantage of openings that way. Can Tink arrow lock? Link's arrows are faster and can punish landings, dodges etc; they work differently than TL's. Link's bombs can kill confirm: throw bomb down>Uair or footstool Nair lock. Z drop bomb>land>Usmash.
Link's hurtbox isn't that much bigger and he has better range and weight than TL.
Oh, would that one guy be me?
I was talking about Gawain, since he's the only one who frequents this topic that'd argue for it.
"If you remove her major zoning tool, Shiek isn't as good at zoning anymore!"
Pikachu mains should take note of this hypothesis, because these 5 are probably Pikachu's worst matchups (and only losing MUs, depending on how the Olimar MU plays out). And Pikachu in turn does really well against Sheik, Falcon, and ZSS (and I would add Sonic, but opinions vary on that).
This isn't really unique to Rosalina. Most characters can do some pretty crazy damage to Fox due to his fall speed. Pikachu's up-throw to up-tilt chains do something like 30-40% to Fox at 0%, and Pikachu edgeguards Fox really easily, but it's still a losing matchup for Pikachu. Fox just controls so much space with his speed that most characters lose to him in neutral too hard to win the MU against him. Luma takes away Fox's neutral dominance just by existing, so that's why Rosalina has the edge ultimately.Rosa also definitely bodies
Unfortunately, few people want to devote time to seriously discussing just how the mid/low tiers as a whole really stack up in the metagame. The elites get all the spotlight while the little people and their meta games just have to suffer in obscurity. Unless its Marth or Roy. Any mention of those two usually ends up in the thread getting sidetracked into a 3-4 page discussion on the bishie swords.
