Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm baffled that people keep defending this character.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Luigi

His slowest normal ground move is frame 12, and most of his other moves do disproportionately high amounts of damage for how fast and lagless they are.

 

[Pyr]

I'm baffled that people keep defending this character.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Luigi

His slowest normal ground move is frame 12, and most of his other moves do disproportionately high amounts of damage for how fast and lagless they are.

Yay! They finally got his page up!

And I don't see why you're baffled. It's been well known that he has the best overall frame data for a while now.

And, I mean, look at this:

Run Speed 1.5 [34-39th]
Walk Speed 1.08 [31st]
Air Speed 0.73418 [54th]
Fall Speed 1.25 [49-50th]
Fast Fall Speed 2.0 [49-50th]
Air Acceleration 0.075
Gravity 0.075

Horrible overall mobility.

And 12 is one of the best for fastest on the ground... But it's not some super-amazing feat. Most of the cast has a slowest ground option that is either 16 frames or faster. (See Doc, Zelda) ****, even DK's slowest is 22. That, and that page won't tell you how short his overall range is. In fact, it gives raw data and no context. So, why are you baffled that, when looking at only good points, a character looks good? Why are you baffled by looking at things without context and in a vacuum?

Really, all your post does is attempts to fan the green fire that was slowly dying out. Thanks for letting us know his page was up, though. Least now I know he lost his fireball IASA and I'm not crazy, and it lasts 47 frames now.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Luigi solidly beats pikachu, mario, sonic, diddy, fox, ness, otherwise good characters which with the exception of ness and fox do very well vs all top tiers.

Has anybody actually looked into / questioned these claims yet? The way I see it the list of characters that supposedly lose to Luigi is getting suspiciously big.

Sonic losing to Luigi is entirely based on theory as far as I can tell. Results do not really indicate an advantage for either side and I see no good reason to assume this matchup to be in Luigi's favor. If anything I'd say it's more likely that Sonic has the advantage here but as long as no empirical evidence exists there's nothing to base any claims on. Just throwing out that Sonic loses to Luigi for the sake of your argument is really just a blanket statement.

I'm not sure why Ness supposedly loses to Luigi? What is that claim based on?

Is having an advanage against Mario actually a big deal? Mario doesn't really beat anybody that matters and almost everybody can beat Mario. It's nice to have an advantage against him but not really something I see as very relevant if we're talking about the high end of the metagame.

So while Luigi is a great counterpick character I think people are inclined to call matchups in his favor a bit too quickly. Up until recently a lot of people thought that Luigi destroys Fox when it's really just a +1 advantage. A lot of these so-called advantages he has are either mostly theorized and not backed up sufficiently with results yet or are blown out of proportion.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm baffled that people keep defending this character.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Luigi

His slowest normal ground move is frame 12, and most of his other moves do disproportionately high amounts of damage for how fast and lagless they are.

You might want to consider lowering his Defense rating, and increasing his Speed rating.

 

[Yonder]

I think at the end of the day about Luigi, he doesn't win big tournaments. He. Doesn't. Win. Tournaments. That is huge. At least all the other complained about characters [Sheik, Brawl MK] wreck havoc in the tourney scene with constant 1st placements. Well, more so Brawl MK, but when has Luigi ever gotten 1st? 4th? Top 8 solo? If he had notable results to speak of, then maybe I'd be shouting nerfs too but really, just buff other characters. Remember Luigi first patch without combos? Called the worst character in the game? Who wants to bring him back to that status again?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

You might want to consider lowering his Defense rating, and increasing his Speed rating.

Speed won't change because it's actually a weighted average on run/walk/air speed.

I think at the end of the day about Luigi, he doesn't win big tournaments. He. Doesn't. Win. Tournaments. That is huge. At least all the other complained about characters [Sheik, Brawl MK] wreck havoc in the tourney scene with constant 1st placements. Well, more so Brawl MK, but when has Luigi ever gotten 1st? 4th? Top 8 solo? If he had notable results to speak of, then maybe I'd be shouting nerfs too but really, just buff other characters. Remember Luigi first patch without combos? Called the worst character in the game? Who wants to bring him back to that status again?

http://smash4u.net/the-state-of-sm4sh-august-edition/

http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-for-wii-u.8/league/teams?rank=1&value=0

Supposedly he doesn't win tournaments.

 

[Yonder]

Speed won't change because it's actually a weighted average on run/walk/air speed.



http://smash4u.net/the-state-of-sm4sh-august-edition/

http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-for-wii-u.8/league/teams?rank=1&value=0

Supposedly he doesn't win tournaments.

Big tourneys. Not regionals, sure he's good in those but like Paragon, Evo, Apex, where was he there? Not in sight, only as a secondary in the top 8, I think at one. At the top level, it's a bigger zoning, speed character game and Luigi gets outsped, out ranged, and outcamped by longer ranged projectiles like Luma, Sheik, Outsped by Sonic, ZSS, etc. I think as the metagame boils down to speed, Luigi will get left behind more and more.

 

[Ffamran]

*Ahem* while we are complaining about Luigi for being too easy to rack up damage and kill with, Rosalina's up air exist. Why don't people complain about this move more often? It's like Mii's helicopter kick on steroids. Kills at 50% on mid weights [lower than Luigi's up B], heck it kills Mewtwo at 20%, yes, 20. Yet Rosalina can freely spam these halos of death without being punished unlike Luigi's Up B, and Rosalina is mobile enough to keep up the onslaught. Sheik needs nerfs before anyone [before Luigi for sure] but Rosalina's up air needs a nerf before anything. I'll be disappointed if it isn't next patch.

I wrote about it before; Rosalina's Uair data suggests it's similar to Falco's post-patch 1.0.8 Uair while Falco's pre-patch 1.0.8 Uair was slightly stronger than hers. Numbers suggest that Rosalina's Uair shouldn't be killing like that, especially since it has late hits unlike Falco's which are constant, except for a sour-spot on his pre-patch Uair - sour-spot could lead to Bair confirms. It might just be the vertical range, but even then, it doesn't have a Shulk Utilt range which still shouldn't kill at 50% at the top platform of Battlefield.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Big tourneys. Not regionals, sure he's good in those but like Paragon, Evo, Apex, where was he there? Not in sight, only as a secondary in the top 8, I think at one. At the top level, it's a bigger zoning, speed character game and Luigi gets outsped, out ranged, and outcamped by longer ranged projectiles like Luma, Sheik, Outsped by Sonic, ZSS, etc. I think as the metagame boils down to speed, Luigi will get left behind more and more.

Possibly at a super high level, but the problem is that very few people get to that level, other than that players are having their character (Luigi, in case that wasn't clear) do things and compete with players that they otherwise should not be able to.

 

[Megamang]

I wrote about it before; Rosalina's Uair data suggests it's similar to Falco's post-patch 1.0.8 Uair while Falco's pre-patch 1.0.8 Uair was slightly stronger than hers. Numbers suggest that Rosalina's Uair shouldn't be killing like that, especially since it has late hits unlike Falco's which are constant, except for a sour-spot on his pre-patch Uair - sour-spot could lead to Bair confirms. It might just be the vertical range, but even then, it doesn't have a Shulk Utilt range which still shouldn't kill at 50% at the top platform of Battlefield.

Do you mean the data on a reference table you are using, or is it straight from the game?

If both hits connect, can they be additive? Also, one must consider how high rosa can get, she often gets those kills an inch away from the ceiling where anything would kill... its just her hitboxes are out for so long

 

[Nu~]

http://youtu.be/mnLSi4UR5FU
25:21

...Is this real life?
Dee>Abadango

 

[Steelballray]

I played some video games where at certain phases people screamed bloody nerf at characters that seemed OP and the balance team seemingly ignored all complains. After a while discussions about these OP characters just.. Faded away. They managed to retain a good place in the top/high tiers of course but after a while they just stopped appearing to be as powerful as people implied they are. I think this is the case with Luigi and Sheik. I think if we were forced (not a pretty word) to deal with them for a while longer we will find ways to get around them. I also think the argument against Sheik that says she needs nerfs becasue she have no bad matchups is bad as well. A character not having bad matchups means its well rounded, not that this character needs a nerf. A character might as well have two or three matchups where it gets boddied but still murder the rest of the cast.

 

[Nobie]

We keep seeing people mention how Luigi's simplistic yet effective neutral is an issue for a lot of characters, but which characters do you think are good at winning the neutral against Luigi, i.e. deal with fireball and dash grab? I'm not asking which characters win OVERALL against him, just the ones who don't feel like they're in an uphill battle against Luigi on the ground.

My thoughts are that any character that has significant-enough overall mobility and can somehow cut through the fireball + other ground options and force Luigi to take to the air where his extremely slow air speed becomes an issue. I'm not 100% confident on some of these, and I haven't listed every single one that I think has the advantage against Luigi in neutral, but hey, debate and discussion.

Needles + Mobility and overall comparable frame data means that Sheik isn't afraid of Luigi

Sheer speed, and the fact that Water Shuriken is such a versatile projectile (stuff Luigi with small ones, power through Fireballs with large ones)

While losing the neutral is a huge problem, he has the speed and power (and the armor) to avoid losing it in the first place

The one everyone mentions. While not as lopsided as originally thought, pellets, vastly superior air control, and just his overall projectile game are huge issues for Luigi

An arguably equally simplistic neutral game, what happens when dash grab meets dash grab? The fact that Meta Knight's launches him forward so much more (and that he can take to the air to avoid a lot of other stuff) is probably going to give him some kind of advantage.

If Mewtwo loses the neutral he gets bodied hard. However, between Confusion, Shadow Ball, and good overall movement speed, he has two options to take on Fireballs directly, and if Luigi takes to the air then up smash becomes a legitimate option.

Another character with a combination Charge Shot + Reflector

Charge Shot, long limbs, and Zair

Luma

Vastly superior mobility, combined with Bike to tear through things, a nasty command grab, and the threat of Waft to turn things around.

 

[Smog Frog]

you forgot

 

[bc1910]

Possibly at a super high level, but the problem is that very few people get to that level, other than that players are having their character (Luigi, in case that wasn't clear) do things and compete with players that they otherwise should not be able to.

I agree with this.

Just because a character is not a problem at literally the top top top level of gameplay does not mean they shouldn't have their power level reviewed, if they are problematic at high level or even typical top level.

This is certainly not observed enough, especially in this thread. People assume if a character can't place top 8 in a national (where player skill should also be a massive consideration) they must be fine, even if they're destroying everyone at a level just below that.

Not saying Luigi needs a nerf, I'm super biased because both my characters beat him, but just saying.

 

[Nu~]

you forgot

I haven't listed every single one that I think has the advantage against Luigi in neutral, but hey, debate and discussion.

Needles + Mobility and overall comparable frame data means that Sheik isn't afraid of Luigi

Sheer speed, and the fact that Water Shuriken is such a versatile projectile (stuff Luigi with small ones, power through Fireballs with large ones)

While losing the neutral is a huge problem, he has the speed and power (and the armor) to avoid losing it in the first place

The one everyone mentions. While not as lopsided as originally thought, pellets, vastly superior air control, and just his overall projectile game are huge issues for Luigi

An arguably equally simplistic neutral game, what happens when dash grab meets dash grab? The fact that Meta Knight's launches him forward so much more (and that he can take to the air to avoid a lot of other stuff) is probably going to give him some kind of advantage.

If Mewtwo loses the neutral he gets bodied hard. However, between Confusion, Shadow Ball, and good overall movement speed, he has two options to take on Fireballs directly, and if Luigi takes to the air then up smash becomes a legitimate option.

Another character with a combination Charge Shot + Reflector

Charge Shot, long limbs, and Zair

Luma

Vastly superior mobility, combined with Bike to tear through things, a nasty command grab, and the threat of Waft to turn things around.

he purposely didn't include every character that can wreck Luigi
Or else we would see

 

[~ Gheb ~]

PacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacmanPacman Pacman pacman pacman pacman pacman pacman

I think most people get it by now.

 

[Routa]

Another character with a combination Charge Shot + Reflector

Vastly superior mobility, combined with Bike to tear through things, a nasty command grab, and the threat of Waft to turn things around.

Reflecting Fireball is as useful as Countering Pellets. Also Charge Shot is far from being good against Luigi even in neutral. When Alternative Moves (they ain't customs mate) are allowed granade and missiles will do the trick in neutral.

About Wario... Yeah no... Bike is okish tool against Luigi, but it should not be used a lot (Luigi can easily knock Wario off from his bike). Also Chomp is near useless in neutral against Luigi (Eat fireball and get punished).

Oh and do we need to mention Wario's Waft in every Wario vs X discussion? I mean everyone knows it is a thing so why do we still need to mention it?

 

[Nu~]

I think most people get it by now.

I was waiting for this lol

In my defense, I try to inform the masses of an otherwise non existent character.

 

[Nobie]

Reflecting Fireball is as useful as Countering Pellets. Also Charge Shot is far from being good against Luigi even in neutral. When Alternative Moves (they ain't customs mate) are allowed granade and missiles will do the trick in neutral.

About Wario... Yeah no... Bike is okish tool against Luigi, but it should not be used a lot (Luigi can easily knock Wario off from his bike). Also Chomp is near useless in neutral against Luigi (Eat fireball and get punished).

Oh and do we need to mention Wario's Waft in every Wario vs X discussion? I mean everyone knows it is a thing so why do we still need to mention it?

I think it's especially relevant against Luigi because the main strategy against Luigi is to camp him out, and Wario has the speed, durability, and X factor (Waft) to make this a real threat. Good points on the rest of the stuff though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I was waiting for this lol

In my defense, I try to inform the masses of an otherwise non existent character.

It's all good bro.

You just need to take it a little easier here and there.

 

[DunnoBro]

Hmm, I think I just discovered something that makes duck hunt significantly more viable.

I do believe duck hunt actually has legitimate 50/50s off dthrow. Or rather confirms, I'd compare them to sheik in actual consistency/option coverage though they actually do way more damage and have much more potency.

I'm still testing it in-depth but so far it looks good. Essentially it involves punishing air dodges with SH pigeons and DI/Jump away with FH ones. DI/Jump in or Nairs lose to upair.

And when used at this close range, you can delay the shots of clay pigeon to let you true combo into upair very near the top blastzone. The SH pigeons in particular also true combo into another clay pigeon into upair... Killing as soon as 80 off a grab + read. (60 with rage!)

I'm hoping the combination of his nicheness, my unique knowledge of delaying the shots to combo better, and using Z-jump which enables buffered rising sh/fh clay pigeons is how this has gone unnoticed.

But assuming it's true, what sort of viability should duck hunt expect?

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Sweet Jesus. I wasn't trying to spark a 24 hour Luigi hate festival I was just trying to make a point saying he does better at the mid level than the top and his mobility isn't really the fatal flaw. As that video showed he gets edgeguarded really hard and he also has trouble landing. Next topic.

Where are the top level fox players at and why do I never see this character being played? He has a way better kit that the majority of other characters. Crazy burst movement and general speed, great damage output and kill setups, a much better recovery than he ever had before, the ability to force anyone without a good duck/crawl to approach and an extremely safe all purpose combo starter and gtfo in up tilt.

Edit: That's a good name for a band. 24 hour Luigi hate festival.

 

[teddystalin]

I was waiting for this lol

In my defense, I try to inform the masses of an otherwise non existent character.

Why stop with Pac-man? "Introducing the @ Nu~ Defense Fund, now representing !"

...What is it about zoning characters that makes them so forgettable?

 

[bc1910]

I'm still testing it in-depth but so far it looks good. Essentially it involves punishing air dodges with SH pigeons and DI/Jump away with FH ones. DI/Jump in or Nairs lose to upair.

How does this stack up against people who DJ airdodge away?

The most reliable killing thing I found with Duck Hunt, when I was trying to use him, was the legitimate hoo hah 50/50 vs certain characters but it doesn't kill until quite late.

 

[Routa]

Why stop with Pac-man? "Introducing the @ Nu~ Defense Fund, now representing !"

...What is it about zoning characters that makes them so forgettable?

None aggressive playstyle? I mean they are basically Anti-Faptains. And everyone loves Faptain, eh?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Hmm, I think I just discovered something that makes duck hunt significantly more viable.

I do believe duck hunt actually has legitimate 50/50s off dthrow. Or rather confirms, I'd compare them to sheik in actual consistency/option coverage though they actually do way more damage and have much more potency.

I'm still testing it in-depth but so far it looks good. Essentially it involves punishing air dodges with SH pigeons and DI/Jump away with FH ones. DI/Jump in or Nairs lose to upair.

And when used at this close range, you can delay the shots of clay pigeon to let you true combo into upair very near the top blastzone. The SH pigeons in particular also true combo into another clay pigeon into upair... Killing as soon as 80 off a grab + read. (60 with rage!)

I'm hoping the combination of his nicheness, my unique knowledge of delaying the shots to combo better, and using Z-jump which enables buffered rising sh/fh clay pigeons is how this has gone unnoticed.

But assuming it's true, what sort of viability should duck hunt expect?

Any kind of kill setup makes the character SIGNIFICANTLY stronger, assuming this stuff works in high level play. Can't wait to see you try it out =3. I mean, he has REALLY good zoning and damage building, so being able to do what he struggles with most, even if it's just a mixup, is pretty big.

 

[TriTails]

I leave you guys for a day and suddenly you guys manage to waste ****ing 5-6 pages about my main.

Why waste? Because apparently most of you are STILL saying REALLY REALLY obvious things that has been shoved into people's throats for the umpteenth time.

Like, dammit people, let's stop discussing how ****ing stupid Luigi for the 3748397493749389 times in this thread.

I'm honestly foreseeing a bad future for Smash 4. It's infinitely more useful to just say 'Alright. Luigi is stupid. DI towards him at low percents and DI away from him at kill percents' rather than compiling a huge*** 19 pages on 'Here's how I change Luigi with patches' in Microsoft Word.

Because the sad thing is, we are suggesting for changes in the game in a place which the devs may never even bother to look at.

I'm ready for my infraction, but this thread has been pretty much side-tracked into 'Competitive Nerfs Suggestions thread' since the first thread. Like, saying stuffs like 'Try to read the opposition's Sheik's habits and try to predict when she wil use needles. Then use shield and use the time to approach' is FAR FAR FAR FAAAAAAAAAR better than 200000000000 pages of 'Here's how we nerf Sheik'.

I'm ready to not discuss changes again. We are much better off discussing on 'how2deal with X' rather than 'how2nerf X' because the latter is literally useless in competitive plays.

Also. I'm not defending my main here. I admit, he is stupid when you master the basic fundamentals (Sometimes I feel sorry for those characters who dies to my Cyclone at like 100%, or those who take 60% everytime that L butyon succeed), and I'm ready for nerfs (Hopefully just changes to his playsytle tho) if the devs want it. But we can't tell, nor we can really mess with their conclusions, no matter how loud we yell. We are better off discussing something more productive rather than yelling about things we have no control in.

 

[outfoxd]

Hmm, I think I just discovered something that makes duck hunt significantly more viable.

I do believe duck hunt actually has legitimate 50/50s off dthrow. Or rather confirms, I'd compare them to sheik in actual consistency/option coverage though they actually do way more damage and have much more potency.

I'm still testing it in-depth but so far it looks good. Essentially it involves punishing air dodges with SH pigeons and DI/Jump away with FH ones. DI/Jump in or Nairs lose to upair.

And when used at this close range, you can delay the shots of clay pigeon to let you true combo into upair very near the top blastzone. The SH pigeons in particular also true combo into another clay pigeon into upair... Killing as soon as 80 off a grab + read. (60 with rage!)

I'm hoping the combination of his nicheness, my unique knowledge of delaying the shots to combo better, and using Z-jump which enables buffered rising sh/fh clay pigeons is how this has gone unnoticed.

But assuming it's true, what sort of viability should duck hunt expect?

Is this entirely contingent on z-jump then? Might have to futz with my controls today.

 

[Fatmanonice]

We keep seeing people mention how Luigi's simplistic yet effective neutral is an issue for a lot of characters, but which characters do you think are good at winning the neutral against Luigi, i.e. deal with fireball and dash grab? I'm not asking which characters win OVERALL against him, just the ones who don't feel like they're in an uphill battle against Luigi on the ground.

To your list, I'd also list because it's fairly easy to force Luigi to approach with her. I believe sun salutation cuts through the fire ball even if it's half charged and ftilt is quick enough to punish whiffed dash grabs. In my own experience, I would say this matchup is fairly even overall and kind of boils down to who can combo the other to death first.

 

[Zelder]

I leave you guys for a day and suddenly you guys manage to waste ****ing 5-6 pages about my main.

Why waste? Because apparently most of you are STILL saying REALLY REALLY obvious things that has been shoved into people's throats for the umpteenth time.

Like, dammit people, let's stop discussing how ****ing stupid Luigi for the 3748397493749389 times in this thread.

I'm honestly foreseeing a bad future for Smash 4. It's infinitely more useful to just say 'Alright. Luigi is stupid. DI towards him at low percents and DI away from him at kill percents' rather than compiling a huge*** 19 pages on 'Here's how I change Luigi with patches' in Microsoft Word.

Because the sad thing is, we are suggesting for changes in the game in a place which the devs may never even bother to look at.

I'm ready for my infraction, but this thread has been pretty much side-tracked into 'Competitive Nerfs Suggestions thread' since the first thread. Like, saying stuffs like 'Try to read the opposition's Sheik's habits and try to predict when she wil use needles. Then use shield and use the time to approach' is FAR FAR FAR FAAAAAAAAAR better than 200000000000 pages of 'Here's how we nerf Sheik'.

I'm ready to not discuss changes again. We are much better off discussing on 'how2deal with X' rather than 'how2nerf X' because the latter is literally useless in competitive plays.

Also. I'm not defending my main here. I admit, he is stupid when you master the basic fundamentals (Sometimes I feel sorry for those characters who dies to my Cyclone at like 100%, or those who take 60% everytime that L butyon succeed), and I'm ready for nerfs (Hopefully just changes to his playsytle tho) if the devs want it. But we can't tell, nor we can really mess with their conclusions, no matter how loud we yell. We are better off discussing something more productive rather than yelling about things we have no control in.

You are way too emotionally invested in your main to have good conversations about him, my friend.

 

[TriTails]

You are way too emotionally invested in your main to have good conversations about him, my friend.

....What?

The point of my post isn't even about Luigi to begin with.

 

[BSP]

I think most people get it by now.

But seriously though, since it wasn't said:

snip

: His trampoline gives Luigi big problems on the ground (neutralize grab / dash grab entirely) and forces Luigi to approach from the air with his god awful air mobility. In addition to that, the trampoline is a CQC get out of jail free card against Luigi since he can't really punish Pac-Man on whiff*. Luigi's fireballs are neutralized by Pac-Man's power pellet, which he can intentionally steer into the fireballs to cancel the move and heal himself. A pellet sitting on the ground also blocks any fireballs thrown on the ground.

*

Spoiler

From my brief testing training mode, Luigi only has a chance to punish Pac-Man's trampoline if he's already nearly touching Pac-Man, jumps over it immediately after Pac-Man uses it, and dashes to him. Since I was alone, I couldn't test whether or not Pac-Man could get another up B out before Luigi could hit him, but the move would be virtually un-punishable in a real match for Luigi.

 

[DunnoBro]

How does this stack up against people who DJ airdodge away?

The most reliable killing thing I found with Duck Hunt, when I was trying to use him, was the legitimate hoo hah 50/50 vs certain characters but it doesn't kill until quite late.

Pigeon goes in a slow, straightish horizontal line until it hits something so it'll often follow them and linger inside them until their air dodge is gone. (though super floaties like yoshi and ness will take some finesse to actually snipe but I'm more afraid of their nairs just smashing the pigeon and me)

Though, it doesn't combo into upair nearly as well at that range. And of course it's more % and character dependent than when at point blank.

Is this entirely contingent on z-jump then? Might have to futz with my controls today.

Not entirely but... It's pretty hard to do the frisbee > frisbee combo with y/b due to no buffer. Honestly SH/FH pigeons to cross up landing/recovering opponents is really important for DHD and I think it should be as comfortable an act as possible. Z-jump + C-stick attack also enables buffered sh/fh uairs which duck hunt utilizes heavily.

Any kind of kill setup makes the character SIGNIFICANTLY stronger, assuming this stuff works in high level play. Can't wait to see you try it out =3. I mean, he has REALLY good zoning and damage building, so being able to do what he struggles with most, even if it's just a mixup, is pretty big.

I found a few other kill set-ups recently... Fast fall uair to usmash/bair to punish air dodges since for some reason duck hunt can't punish them with just a lingering/falling upair, it has to be rising.

Also SH Dair > Clay Pigeon </ Uair. I'm having an issue getting it to ground bounce properly consistently though. It seems only viable as an OOS punish as that's the only way you can space it right consistently, which duck hunt really needs. It's essentially the smash he always needed but there's still consistency issues. (ability to tech, nair,

Duck (melee player) utilized sh dair a lot in his footsies in early 3ds days but only with the intent to do Dair > Full Hop Upair. As Dair is very very weak and on non-floaties only ground bounces them high enough to kill well past when uair could've killed.

I believe dair was probably made so weak because it is intended to be a combo starter. I don't think he considered pigeon toss another way to extend the combo into a kill.

There's also a unique interaction with duck hunt and the new Attack + Special = Smash mechanic. It allows him to now input the "shot" command for frisbee at the same time he begins charging a smash.

This lets him TRUE COMBO INTO UPSMASH off clay pigeon

But, tragically, duck hunt's usmash is too ass to properly connect into the strong hit at this angle.

Edit: Like 90% sure it isn't worth trying to get ness with this lmao. He either nairs you when he doesn't air dodge or weaves around you with his idiotic one for the ol' ebola heave ho.

 

[Zelder]

....What?

The point of my post isn't even about Luigi to begin with.

If it wasn't about Luigi, why did you talk about how we wasted "5-6 pages complaining about your main" and ask that we "stop complaining about Luigi for the 200000000x time". Also I don't think anyone in the past couple of pages (or at least anyone worth mentioning) has been talking about nerfs, they've really just been complaining about his design.

 

[LightLV]

The **** are you on about

Sorry, I guess I was wrong. Quantifiable move set data is just way too ambiguous to ever be used for anything. Sure told me.

As for anything else you said, you kind of just threw a bunch of esports terms together and are acting like somehow that means you've won an argument. OK bud

And keep back tracking on priority lol. It's making me laugh

I guess your reading comprehension is about as poor as your ability to compile data in any meaningful way. If you don't understand why i called your logic flawed by now then no, we don't need to keep doing this. And i've never heard anyone refer the words "priorty", "hitbox" and the most basic frame data attributes as "esports" terms before. I really wish people would touch something OTHER than Smash Bros before trying to argue these things.

I don't even know what an "esports" term is ffs

Objectively, Toon Link has superior frame data. Objectively, Toon Link has superior projectiles. Objectively, Toon Link can actually set up into kills beyond laggy punish moves. (But then again those punish moves have huge hitboxes so that means Link is automatically better I guess)

....You clearly don't know what "objective" means. I think you've been seeing people type the word alot, and now you think it's okay for you to use it, and thats cool and all...but it very nearly means the opposite of how you're using it right now.

And the main reason this is so silly is that the main reasons Toon Link is considered slightly better than Link has less to do with his frame data than his movement attributes. If we're going off attack frames and hitboxes, Link would easily be the better character...their frame data is extremely similar and Link is even faster than him in some cases, and with better range too. If you believe Link has no good kill setups, then you clearly don't watch many Links play and you shouldnt be having this argument.

You're just regurgitating stuff you hear other people say (incorrectly) at this point.

I'm done talking about this. I didn't even want argue about Link vs Toon Link but you are saying things that are completely wrong. Just like you were earlier when you tried to argue that Lucina was as good as Marth because tipper is an arbitrary, useless mechanic. Please stop talking before you hurt yourself.

Hahaha, okay so that IS why you're spamming that word incorrectly. And now you're using the word arbitrary wrong too. But go ahead and throw words in my mouth, thats cool. It's not like i'll get anywhere clarifying to you anyway.

 

[Dre89]

*Ahem* while we are complaining about Luigi for being too easy to rack up damage and kill with, Rosalina's up air exist. Why don't people complain about this move more often? It's like Mii's helicopter kick on steroids. Kills at 50% on mid weights [lower than Luigi's up B], heck it kills Mewtwo at 20%, yes, 20. Yet Rosalina can freely spam these halos of death without being punished unlike Luigi's Up B, and Rosalina is mobile enough to keep up the onslaught. Sheik needs nerfs before anyone [before Luigi for sure] but Rosalina's up air needs a nerf before anything. I'll be disappointed if it isn't next patch.

Rosa is way more broken design-wise than Luigi, and is a better character to boot. I think the reason people don't complain about her as much is this assumption that she's vulnerable whe she's Rosaloner. If people actually looked at her KO power, her frame data, and her disjointed(range) they'd realise that she's still a high tier character assuming a context where people have to approach her. And as we all know, people always approach Rosaliner because in 13 seconds she goes from high tier to broken top tier.

Seriously though, why does she have the KO power of a heavy with the frame data of a mid-weight, the range and disjointedness of a dedicated zoning character, and has a mechanic that negates projectiles and forces everyone in the game to approach her. On top of all this she has a pet that makes of all this projectile-ranged with even more priority. A pet who in some scenarios is actually better than having a second Rosalina on the stage. A pet who punishes you for attacking Rosa and can potentially kill you whilst Rosa is in hitstun or even dying.

 

[Mr. Johan]

People are going discuss future patches because we know for a fact that at least one more patch is coming, so it's productive to brainstorm ideas on how that patch is going to go down and see how it stacks up to predictions.

And, frankly, sometimes it's just better for patches to happen over people magically pressing the "Get Good" button. Smash isn't some magical software that achieved balance Nirvana that players only need to reach. Oppressive **** does exist in this game, and it's better for the new competitive players for that to be plucked out until we get as close to that Nirvana as possible.

 

[LightLV]

Sweet Jesus. I wasn't trying to spark a 24 hour Luigi hate festival I was just trying to make a point saying he does better at the mid level than the top and his mobility isn't really the fatal flaw. As that video showed he gets edgeguarded really hard and he also has trouble landing. Next topic.

Where are the top level fox players at and why do I never see this character being played? He has a way better kit that the majority of other characters. Crazy burst movement and general speed, great damage output and kill setups, a much better recovery than he ever had before, the ability to force anyone without a good duck/crawl to approach and an extremely safe all purpose combo starter and gtfo in up tilt.

Edit: That's a good name for a band. 24 hour Luigi hate festival.

I think Fox is an excellent character, until he gets knocked off and needs to use that superfree recovery to get back on the stage. Fox and Falco have got to be like the easiest characters to edgeguard in this game.

 

[TurboLink]

*Ahem* while we are complaining about Luigi for being too easy to rack up damage and kill with, Rosalina's up air exist. Why don't people complain about this move more often? It's like Mii's helicopter kick on steroids. Kills at 50% on mid weights [lower than Luigi's up B], heck it kills Mewtwo at 20%, yes, 20. Yet Rosalina can freely spam these halos of death without being punished unlike Luigi's Up B, and Rosalina is mobile enough to keep up the onslaught. Sheik needs nerfs before anyone [before Luigi for sure] but Rosalina's up air needs a nerf before anything. I'll be disappointed if it isn't next patch.