Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[RedBeefBaron]

I think Fox is an excellent character, until he gets knocked off and needs to use that superfree recovery to get back on the stage. Fox and Falco have got to be like the easiest characters to edgeguard in this game.

Fox can make his side b virtually lagless on landing which is incredibly hard to do anything about thanks to his foot speed and up tilt. If you try to cover that option by throwing a hit box out over the stage he can just snap the ledge. He also doesn't go into free fall after his side b which is ludicrous.

Good foxes are way harder to edgeguard than Luigi, Roy and falcon for sure, duck hunt and Robin probably, probably others that I'm missing too.

 

[DunnoBro]

Rosa is way more broken design-wise than Luigi, and is a better character to boot. I think the reason people don't complain about her as much is this assumption that she's vulnerable whe she's Rosaloner. If people actually looked at her KO power, her frame data, and her disjointed(range) they'd realise that she's still a high tier character assuming a context where people have to approach her. And as we all know, people always approach Rosaliner because in 13 seconds she goes from high tier to broken top tier.

Well she's also pretty difficult to use, not to mention utilizes an unpopular style of play so she isn't played vs often.

I don't know about design wise, I think Rosalina would be fine if she were balanced more like duck hunt and trick shot. If luma had like 10-15 health but could be resummoned via warp any time I think she'd be a much healthier character. As it is she just gets a lot of passive boosts.

Luigi on the other hand is just designed to be absurdly linear and potent while linear.

Good foxes are way harder to edgeguard than Luigi, Roy and falcon for sure, duck hunt and Robin probably, probably others that I'm missing too.

Ehh, duck hunt's recovery does better vs traditional gimpers like sheik or jiggs but foxes does better vs the majority who are straight up trying to kill you offstage.

 

[Coffee™]

I'm ready to not discuss changes again. We are much better off discussing on 'how2deal with X' rather than 'how2nerf X' because the latter is literally useless in competitive plays.

Agreed. This thread would be much better off and far more productive if discussion about nerfs and buffs was banned.

Like seriously....can we just make another thread specifically for nerf/buff discussion?

 

[Mr. Johan]

I think just swapping Rosalina's and Luma's knockback specs would work. Have Rosalina be the powerful KB machine, so that when it comes time for the KO, Rosalina has to come in and do it herself.

The point of Luma is to have additional range to cover options. That that additional range also comes packed with explosive knockback at unreactable speeds is unnecessary.

 

[Zethoro]

Big tourneys. Not regionals, sure he's good in those but like Paragon, Evo, Apex, where was he there? Not in sight, only as a secondary in the top 8, I think at one. At the top level, it's a bigger zoning, speed character game and Luigi gets outsped, out ranged, and outcamped by longer ranged projectiles like Luma, Sheik, Outsped by Sonic, ZSS, etc. I think as the metagame boils down to speed, Luigi will get left behind more and more.

Do keep in mind that the only character winning big tournaments right now is Shiek, largely in part to huge contenders like ZeRo, Vinnie and Mr. R playing her. Add in the fact that Shiek has a very advantageous matchup against Luigi and it's fairly clear why Luigis don't win tournaments.
He's the D3 of Sm4sh. Crushes low/mid tiers but when it comes to the top tiers he usually falls short (though not as badly as Brawl D3.)

 

[Routa]

Agreed. This thread would be much better off and far more productive if discussion about nerfs and buffs was banned.

Like seriously....can we just make another thread specifically for nerf/buff discussion?

You want this thread to die? What next... I bet you will suggest people to like posts about character discussion and not the humor posts.

Dis guy is nuts...

 

[DanGR]

Rosa is way more broken design-wise than Luigi, and is a better character to boot. I think the reason people don't complain about her as much is this assumption that she's vulnerable whe she's Rosaloner. If people actually looked at her KO power, her frame data, and her disjointed(range) they'd realise that she's still a high tier character assuming a context where people have to approach her. And as we all know, people always approach Rosaliner because in 13 seconds she goes from high tier to broken top tier.

Seriously though, why does she have the KO power of a heavy with the frame data of a mid-weight, the range and disjointedness of a dedicated zoning character, and has a mechanic that negates projectiles and forces everyone in the game to approach her. On top of all this she has a pet that makes of all this projectile-ranged with even more priority. A pet who in some scenarios is actually better than having a second Rosalina on the stage. A pet who punishes you for attacking Rosa and can potentially kill you whilst Rosa is in hitstun or even dying.

Her poor design is practically a given at this point. It only hurts your argument to exaggerate so much.

She only has the "KO power (knockback, I presume is what you mean? This is a really vague way of putting it.) of a heavy" on a few attacks. Luma upair killing so early off the top sometimes is the result of a combination of high BKB, rage, and Rosalina's juggles extending so high upwards. If other characters could juggle you up to the ceiling, they'd be killing at 40% off a soft read too.

Most of her attacks are pretty weak. Luma dair/upair/fsmash/upsmash are all strong. The rest of Rosalina&Luma's attacks don't kill often until at least the 120-30s on mid-weights- and it can be difficult sometimes to land those too. This is hardly comparable to traditionally "heavy" characters' very high knockback on several attacks.

RosaLuma's frame data (besides Luma jab/nair/upair) is actually very underwhelming. Their range is what makes up for it and makes her attacks so safe, generally speaking.

She doesn't "force everyone in the game to approach her." This statement isn't even exaggerated. It's just objectively wrong.

I don't know what to make of some of your other odd claims. (Luma better than a second Rosa? Huh)

 

[Vipermoon]

Reflecting Fireball is as useful as Countering Pellets. Also Charge Shot is far from being good against Luigi even in neutral. When Alternative Moves (they ain't customs mate) are allowed granade and missiles will do the trick in neutral.

About Wario... Yeah no... Bike is okish tool against Luigi, but it should not be used a lot (Luigi can easily knock Wario off from his bike). Also Chomp is near useless in neutral against Luigi (Eat fireball and get punished).

Oh and do we need to mention Wario's Waft in every Wario vs X discussion? I mean everyone knows it is a thing so why do we still need to mention it?

Actually, countering pellets is pretty useful if they are within range/approaching.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Her poor design is practically a given at this point. It only hurts your argument to exaggerate so much.

She only has the "KO power (knockback, I presume is what you mean? This is a really vague way of putting it.) of a heavy" on a few attacks. Luma upair killing so early off the top sometimes is the result of a combination of high BKB, rage, and Rosalina's juggles extending so high upwards. If other characters could juggle you up to the ceiling, they'd be killing at 40% off a soft read too.

Most of her attacks are pretty weak. Luma dair/upair/fsmash/upsmash are all strong. The rest of Rosalina&Luma's attacks don't kill often until at least the 120-30s on mid-weights- and it can be difficult sometimes to land those too. This is hardly comparable to traditionally "heavy" characters' very high knockback on several attacks.

RosaLuma's frame data (besides Luma jab/nair/upair) is actually very underwhelming. Their range is what makes up for it and makes her attacks so safe, generally speaking.

She doesn't "force everyone in the game to approach her." This statement isn't even exaggerated. It's just objectively wrong.

I don't know what to make of some of your other odd claims. (Luma better than a second Rosa? Huh)

Right, because when a character has two aerials, two smashes, a blanket OOS option, and a god damn jab that kill we can generally say that "most of her attacks are pretty weak."

Especially when most of that is attached to a meat shield with infinite range, the ability to kill "at 40% off of a soft read" due to ridiculous kb growth stats, all complimented by pretty much the best gimps in the game.

 

[Nobie]

I think buff and nerf discussion is okay as long as it doesn't turn into a case of jealousy that Character X has what yours doesn't and how it's totally unfair.

One thing that came up in the previous thread that I think is important to remember is that characters are much more influenced by their design archetypes and their historical backgrounds as video game characters than by the idea that they need to have All the Tools. Why is Luigi the way he is? Because being a high jumper with extremely slippery traction has been his signature characteristic since both Super Mario Bros. 2 USA and Japan. He was given strengths around that idea, as well as the notion that he's more naturally talented than Mario but much less confident.

Speaking of Duck Hunt, I was thinking about how having unreliable smash attacks is probably a very intentional part of his design, and if I were to buff them in any way, I would actually make it so that the hitboxes on his smashes became larger and linked better the more you charged them. Thus, unreliable smash attacks would still be a part of his flaws, but if you successfully trap your opponent and read them successfully, a nice, charged f-smash or whatever would guarantee a KO.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I gave up on trying to get people to stop talking about buffs and nerfs long ago. At least it does (sometimes) start meaningful discussion on whats important in a move and what isn't

 

[DanGR]

Right, because when a character has two aerials, two smashes, a blanket OOS option, and a god damn jab that kill we can generally say that "most of her attacks are pretty weak."

Especially when most of that is attached to a meat shield with infinite range, the ability to kill "at 40% off of a soft read" due to ridiculous kb growth stats, all complimented by pretty much the best gimps in the game.

2 aerials and 2 smashes (jab doesn't kill until high percents with lots of rage) is not "most." The utility of whatever kill move you're talking about OOS, Luma having a hurtbox, Luma having long range, and Rosaluma having solid gimp potential all have nothing to do high knockback, which is all I was talking about.

Could you and others please stop littering your posts with exaggeration and emotion?

 

[Emblem Lord]

You have LITERALLY described priority.

Wait...do people not realize that transcendence is essentially TRUE priority?

 

[Yonder]

I should use my ballot vote to send that URL to Nintendo. That move also wrecked me in a tourney despite my 50% lead on a Rosalina as Luigi, and I get tapped by one of those up airs. Really, Rosalina is...mostly ok for me, just that up air needs to get the Diddy treatment.

Anyone think Bowser has potential now or is he doomed to trash despite the buffs? I'm more pessimistic on him, sadly.

 

[Locke 06]

Lol. Trying to make people do things on a forum.


Real topic: What tournament threat (I guess the top 18 in the OP, but I'd be happier to keep it to the more agreed upon first 10 characters) is benefitting the most from MU inexperience? And why?

Lots of people say Rosa because anti-luma games are still being developed and opponents still don't know when luma can attack and when luma cannot. With more ZSS experience you can anticipate the grab and punish whiffed grabs harder (while also avoiding her traps more effectively). Pika's inability to kill against knowledgeable opponents is cited as a weakness, but people still get killed by up throw/dthrow thunder2. Etc.

While these are all "common tourney characters," only a few have consistent high level experience/practice against all 10.

Edit: "and why?"

 

[Trifroze]

When I hear the term "frame data of a midweight" all I could think of is Luigi and Mario who have the #1 and #2 fastest overall frame data in the game.

Wait...do people not realize that transcendence is essentially TRUE priority?

Transcendence doesn't straight up beat things though, so unless your transcendent move is disjointed it's just always going to trade which I wouldn't call priority. With something like ZSS' dash attack I'd rather clank with an fsmash that does 16 damage compared to my 8 than trade with one, but then again I don't use dash attack very often in situations where the opponent could fsmash.

EDIT: now that I think of it I never see dash attacks clank to begin with evoMindblown evoMindblown evoMindblown

 

[DunnoBro]

Lol. Trying to make people do things on a forum.


Real topic: What tournament threat (I guess the top 18 in the OP, but I'd be happier to keep it to the more agreed upon first 10 characters) is benefitting the most from MU inexperience?

Lots of people, say Rosa because anti-luma games are still being developed and opponents still don't know when luma can attack and when luma cannot. With more ZSS experience you can anticipate the grab and punish whiffed grabs harder (while also avoiding her traps more effectively). Pika's inability to kill against knowledgeable opponents is cited as a weakness, but people still get killed by up throw/dthrow thunder2.

While these are all "common tourney characters," only a few have consistent high level experience/practice against all 10.

Inexperience helps everyone, but ZSS and Pika aren't characters people familiar with smash are generally too foreign to.

It's most definitely Rosa. The character and mechanics are new, neutral is unique, the advantage is unique, and the disadvantage while not particularly unique is extremely potent if not dealt with properly. (only slightly inferior to other characters benefiting from inexperience at worst)

Anyone think Bowser has potential now or is he doomed to trash despite the buffs? I'm more pessimistic on him, sadly.

Possibly has a niche counter with the armor of bowser bomb. I'm not too familiar on the specifics as it was a while ago, but when I played le troof in friendlies I could not use clay pigeon to land at all. If he ever shielded it, he could bowser bomb OOS and the super armor would tank the shots.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I think Fox is an excellent character, until he gets knocked off and needs to use that superfree recovery to get back on the stage. Fox and Falco have got to be like the easiest characters to edgeguard in this game.

Fox's predictable recovery has been a problem since Smash 64. It's been getting better in with each new installment to the point where side b no longer leaves him helpless. In terms of being the easiest character to edgeguard, that title belongs to Falcon.

Edit: actually I take that back it's little mac who's the easiest to edgeguard(I forgot that he even existed)

 

[RedBeefBaron]

2 aerials and 2 smashes (jab doesn't kill until high percents with lots of rage) is not "most." The utility of whatever kill move you're talking about OOS, Luma having a hurtbox, Luma having long range, and Rosaluma having solid gimp potential all have nothing to do high knockback, which is all I was talking about.

Could you and others please stop littering your posts with exaggeration and emotion?

I don't understand why you would think Rosalina has bad knockback/trouble killing with all the kill moves you listed and the jab which is used to kill at the top level all the time.

What are you trying to argue here?

 

[Teshie U]

Falcon and Mii Brawler are easier to edgeguard than Little Mac/Fox.

Falcon is good distance on his up B and alot of weight, its matchup dependant, but unless you have a truly amazing upair, he can just recover way over you and turn it into a juggle instead.

Mii Brawler's only redeeming feature is his airspeed so double jump airdodge isnt too terrible.

His Up B is awkward and doesn't snap to the ledge on the way up or have a threatening hitbox.

Little Mac is lacking in distance, but he does have a counter, heavy armor and an invincible up B with a NICE hitbox on it. He isn't "easy to edgeguard", he is just easy to deadzone.

 

[Zelder]

Naw, little mac is the easiest to edge guard because he can't afford to stall in the air to throw off attacks, he has to constantly move back towards the stage to have a chance of over-b'ing or up-b'ing successfully. And you should never use his counter in midair, if the the enemy doesn't bite the bait then you just lost your stock.

 

[Nobie]

This mostly only works against scrubs but one of the funniest things to do against an off-stage Little Mac trying to counter is to hit him from behind. This causes Little Mac to attack towards the edge of the screen and completely ruins his recovery.

Probably the only characters who could actually take advantage of that are Ness and Lucas.

 

[DunnoBro]

I've gone 50 hours without sleep or food, and I'm getting scared when I'm finding alleged kill set-ups for duck hunt and people claiming little mac's recovery isn't the worst in the game.

 

[Megamang]

FWIW, i fear duck hunt in bracket. Especially in a 2 stock meta. Pika has a little trouble killing, and I usually just try and chip damage people till I can death throw them... But his flaw, people falling out of smashes, can sometimes... not happen. then suddenly im dead. Like, that U-smash done really early like a read to intercept an aerial, and just hitting straight up with the kill hit of the smash and not the setups, happens once and then hes so hard to come back against, tho rage helps.

 

[DanGR]

I don't understand why you would think Rosalina has bad knockback/trouble killing with all the kill moves you listed and the jab which is used to kill at the top level all the time.

What are you trying to argue here?

Dre89 fanatically exaggerated Rosalina's strengths. I corrected those exaggerations to better reflect the character.

One of those exaggerations was Rosalina's "KO power" (which I took to mean knockback), which he compared to typically "heavy" characters' KO power. My argument was that they're not comparable.
Rosalina KB < heavies KB.

Realistically, Rosalina kills with Luma upair by juggling opponents to the upper blast zone. She kills with Luma dair near the edge/off the stage. These kills happen because she juggles them to the blastzone and finishes them off with rage+high BKB. Many other characters would kill super early too if they had as low a cooldown on upair and had a super high 1st and 2nd jump.

She kills with Luma upsmash at normal percents and with Luma fsmash at above average percents. Combined Luma/Rosalina upsmash kills earlier than average while combined Luma/Rosalina fsmash kills way earlier than average granted you still hit with Luma's arm hitbox and not his body.

This isn't anywhere close to the raw knockback stats of heavy characters' attacks, nor does she have as many that kill.

I made no claims about her ability to finish stocks.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Wait...do people not realize that transcendence is essentially TRUE priority?

Not just that, but anything that determines if a move beats another move (say the 9% rule) is also priority.

Smash is weird in that priority exists but it's more on a move vs move basis rather than just a general "this move have very high priority" because sometimes they don't! (See Jigglypuff dtilt in Brawl being tr4sh vs most moves but still beating out grounded Mach Tornado").

 

[Rikkhan]

for the lols

@ DanGR : "One of those exaggerations was Rosalina's KO power"

 

[DunnoBro]

It'd be really great if duck hunt actually does have kill confirms, at least on sheik which I'm pretty sure he does on her since he always kind of did(just very narrow/risky ones). Duck hunt's grab range, his own even greater ranged fair for spacing, and projectiles that all eat needles(to a degree) really aggravate sheik, and the MU essentially only goes to sheik because she kills and edgeguards.

Duck hunt also fails to succumb to the one-sided edgeguarding most of the cast does due to his superb range, versatile projectiles, and 1-frame grabbing lingering nair akin to pika and mk. (of course he himself gets edgeguarded... pretty damn hard)

https://youtu.be/sFQfGFnR5uE?t=3m3s

Gonna continue labbing in a few hours. Been stuck brooding at work all day

 

[Vipermoon]

While we're posting Rosalina stuff here's a cool glitch:

 

[RayNoire]

Little Mac's recovery is definitely not the worst in the game. I'd say Robin's is worse for one. People just need to learn to edgeguard.

 

[LancerStaff]

for the lols

@ DanGR : "One of those exaggerations was Rosalina's KO power"

Any decently powerful single hit attack can do that... Rage and smash attack vulnerability multipliers combined are ridiculous.

 

[Mettie7]

Little Mac's recovery is definitely not the worst in the game. I'd say Robin's is worse for one. People just need to learn to edgeguard.

????????????

I'm sorry but no. Robin's is bad but it's definitely not the worst. Duck Hunt, Dr. Mario, Falcon, Ganondorf, AND Little Mac all have worse recoveries than Robin. And all of those characters have better recoveries than Little Mac's too.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Little Mac's recovery is definitely not the worst in the game. I'd say Robin's is worse for one. People just need to learn to edgeguard.

Nah. The sheer vertical lift Robin gets from Elwind, along with the maneuverability buffs from patch 1.1.0 ensure he isn't a big target when recovering.

 

[wedl!!]

I know this thread is synonymous with stupid armchair theroycraft, but you can't be serious when you're trying to say Little Mac's recovery is not the worst in the game.

 

[Zelder]

And again, the biggest weakness Mac has is that he immediately has to start moving towards the stage when he gets knocked off. He can't feint backwards, or jump up and then recover, or really even go straight down, so you know he'll always be returning at a downward diagonal towards the stage.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Little Mac's recovery is definitely not the worst in the game. I'd say Robin's is worse for one. People just need to learn to edgeguard.

Robin main?

 

[Megamang]

Maybe little mac doesn't have the worst u-special since it can also kill. Robins is pretty good for edgeguarding too, I think you can arcthunder into a spike with it.

 

[RayNoire]

Robin main?

Formerly.

Didn't know his maneuverability got buffed though, so that's neat. Don't know how much it helps the fact that he has virtually no mixup options on his recovery, while Little Mac has at least 2 (slam Counter all you want, it's there and you have to respect it).

Mac will always be one of the most underrated characters because of conclusions drawn from For Glory, but let's try to give him a fair shake here.

 

[wedl!!]

Yea, it functions as a combo finisher/kill move, and actually pretty well at that.

Doesn't make Mac any better at recovering.

 

[Rikkhan]

Any decently powerful single hit attack can do that... Rage and smash attack vulnerability multipliers combined are ridiculous.

Really? Well tell me 5 moves that do that and are not smash attacks or charged specials please.