Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Jabejazz]

I certainly think he is viable, especially with customs which are now frowned upon, poor DK. The best heavyweight easily. He's pretty fast for a heavy too.

His bair, good god. It comes out so fast (frame 7?). I want that bair on TripleD.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Actually, Ganon's F-air is really good for comboing out of Flame Choke. Run Forward --> SH F-air covers every getup option but inward roll since he pushes you with him while running. In addition, he can use it to set a DI trap near the ledge with D-throw/F-throw. If you DI in, D-throw will true combo into F-air, likely for a kill. If you DI out, F-throw will send you extra far offstage at a terrible angle.

He'd probably use it a lot more if it wasn't overshadowed by U-air in a lot of situations.

My brain hurts.

You are too intelligent for this bull**** man.

 

[LightLV]

You're either misunderstanding or twisting my premise which was:

1. overall frame data isn't very important
2. you need a few quick moves

You don't need five different sub 8 frame aerials, only one or two, which you use for bursting out of combos in disadvantage, rising out of a shorthop or for comboing into itself. In most other scenarios the speed of the move doesn't have much impact as long as it's not reactable because you use it while you're jumping higher on juggles or SHFFing down getting to your desired height which will take more frames than what basically any aerial in the game is. Also when we talk of something that's slow enough to react to, we're realistically talking at least 17-20 frames because the input and the startup frames for stuff like airdodge, shield and spotdodge take 1-3 frames in addition to your reaction time depending on which one you're doing. Pure reaction on even a 16 frame move is godlike unless that's all you're anticipating and focusing on, and even then it's pretty good.

You don't need many fast ground moves either, one 2-3 frame jab and either a good DA or dash grab can easily save you and punish the opponent in every perceivable scenario even if you have terrible tilts and smashes (not referring to any particular character here though).

Throw in one or two reliable ~10 frame aerials or smashes that kill (there's a trend of those being bair, uair and usmash) and after that the rest of your moveset should be focused on something else than raw speed and safety, and that leaves quite a few slots for that. Even if most of that remaining moveset is utter garbage, stuff like mobility and recovery are way more important and often help you actually utilize the stuff you've been given even if it's scarce. Simply having great overall frame data doesn't do you anything if you can't setup reliable kills within decent percentages unless you have Sheik level neutral.

^ This is a good post. Piggybacking off my last post, I think a lack of standard tools amongst the cast is another reason why the same types of characters always end up being the best, and the same types also always end up being bad.

No, frame data is not all that important in this game. Its defensive mechanics are FARRR too simplistic to make any attributes other than "Startup" and "active" useful to know. IASA or autocancel frames are important, but those can honestly just be played by eye and don't need to be looked up.

Every character doesn't need to be fast, but lacking things like a good sexkick, jab or some relatively speedy move that KOs is a massive disadvantage, unless your character is specifically given attacks that provide a good subsitute (super armor). These moves don't even have to be normals, but not having any answer to them sucks and pretty much dooms your character to never be viable.

 

[Yonder]

His bair, good god. It comes out so fast (frame 7?). I want that bair on TripleD.

At a tourney I went to, me vs DK in the top 8...DK's bair won. No, not DK, his bair. Mutilates Luigi offstage. Luigi can mess him up onstage good but when bair comes out...run. People always say "would be god on any other character" I can see it. DK's bair is another character. Imagine Sheik having DK's bair. It would be 2v1. Wouldn't need a team mate, because DK's bair would be that partner. DK's bair: The quintessential bair and the best in smash history.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

At a tourney I went to, me vs DK in the top 8...DK's bair won. No, not DK, his bair. Mutilates Luigi offstage. Luigi can mess him up onstage good but when bair comes out...run. People always say "would be god on any other character" I can see it. DK's bair is another character. Imagine Sheik having DK's bair. It would be 2v1. Wouldn't need a team mate, because DK's bair would be that partner. DK's bair: The quintessential bair and the best in smash history.

Do projectiles still turn people around if they hit a backwards facing aerial target? Because that definitely messes with people who rely on bairs in neutral, especially if they're large.

 

[K3H]

Sorry if the reasons aren't good enough, tried to do the best I could.

Anyway MY TIER LIST! (Customs Off)

S:

A:

B:

C:

D+:

D:

D-:

E:

F:

Reasons:

:Kirby is probably the most underrated character in the game right now. He has amazing air attacks, amazing and deadly comboing, great throws, that can either KO (Although it's not that good at it), or combo, he has good smashes (His Up smash KOs earlier than Foxes!!), He can use his opponent''s neutral special, he has good recovery, and customs on he has a good finisher and stuff (But this tier list is customs off). Plus his crouch. And most of hos top tier matchups aren't that bad.

:A VERY underrated character. His projectiles can do crazy stuff (Metal Blade can go in any direction allowing you to use them anytime to attempt to harm, his airs are great, his smashes are great, and his KO power is amazing!!!

:A VERY underrated character as well. He has Amazing range, great smashes and some airs are great, and monados help him recover, damage rack, KO power, and survive

:Yet ANOTHER VERY underrated character in this game. She has amazing edgeguarding, amazing comboing, Wall of Pain, great down and side specials, and great airs, and a great up tilt.

:No representation used in this list, I have one that uses results though if you're interested.

:I don't think he's quite top 10 yet, unlike most people. But he's still great, he feels like a top 15 character (Although Pac-Man just BARLY gets him away from it, although they could switch at like any time.

:Always thought he's overrated as crap, He's not bad but he isn't good either.

:There are characters better than him, simple enough.

His comboing is really great, and his down specials and airs are also very great.

:He has good combos, good attacks, great airs, and his generally average, which is better than many other characters, (Although he's slightly more)

:Many of his attacks are bad (Most aren't) or have SOME flaw, although it's still a great character.

:His startup or end lag on most of hos moves are devestating, he csn't get past high-mod because of it.

He's still really slow in many of his attacks, so he's still middle tier.

:Other characters are better than him, some attacks have endlag or just plain suck.

:Dabuz has shown us what she's capable of

She still has major flaws, still sucks. and still has crappy attacks (Well, at least sometimes are crappy)

Still slow, his startup and/or end lag is huge

:He's kinda underrated, he's still good

:He's very underrated, his combos, KO power, and air attacks make him middle tier, and than frame data takes him to low tier, he's far from second worst

:She has many terrible flaws, but other characters have it worse or can't combo

Ask questions if you want, I answered the most important but I could have made a mistake, not wlborated enough, might not have answered a questionable placement, etc

Lucas' moves come out pretty fast actually. His two slowest moves are Usmash and Dsmash, and it's not like you'd even be throwing those moves out too often. His tilts and jab are definitely fast enough to fight an opponent comfortably up close.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

@Ffamran Izaw made a Falco video and right off the bat he says his Nair has a wind box. Smh.

PSA Falco's Nair autolinks. It has no wind box. It's still a great move just please know that there is no wind box on it.

 

[Vipermoon]

It would make sense if it did have a windbox because flapping wings lol. Then give his jab one too.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Why doesn't anybody use perfect pivoting except like... Sheik mains? It really isn't hard to learn, and there's a ton that comes out of it, so like...

where'd it go

 

[FullMoon]

Why doesn't anybody use perfect pivoting except like... Sheik mains? It really isn't hard to learn, and there's a ton that comes out of it, so like...

where'd it go

PP Up-Tilt with Greninja is the truth.

I just don't have the dexterity to do it consistently ;-;

 

[Illuminose]

Why doesn't anybody use perfect pivoting except like... Sheik mains? It really isn't hard to learn, and there's a ton that comes out of it, so like...

where'd it go

Nietono does perfect pivots effectively with Fox. There's a lot of players that I think have labbed perfect pivot combos and stuff, but they're kind of hard so it may take a bit longer for us to really see perfect pivots implemented.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

PP Up-Tilt with Greninja is the truth.

I just don't have the dexterity to do it consistently ;-;

I couldn't do it consistently and thought it wasn't worth the trouble to learn, but I started putting some time intervals to practice it, and now it's just really easy. Despite it seeming a bit hard at first, keep practicing and find a comfortable way to do it.

I wanna see more characters use perfect pivots omg

Kirby's combo game is stupid as heck with perfect pivots, lol.

 

[warionumbah2]

Why doesn't anybody use perfect pivoting except like... Sheik mains? It really isn't hard to learn, and there's a ton that comes out of it, so like...

where'd it go

Salena uses PP, you see more Japanese players use it consistently. I remember Ito using it alot as well, both he and Salena use it space MKs tilts/F-smash or as a movement option in neutral(think he's tied 3rd place in terms of PP distance).

Nothing combo oriented like that weak puff ball Kirby.

 

[Nu~]

Why doesn't anybody use perfect pivoting except like... Sheik mains? It really isn't hard to learn, and there's a ton that comes out of it, so like...

where'd it go

I use it for better spacing on Pac-Man's smash attacks to beat out sh approaches. Ghosts beat so much.

As for tilts...utilt and dtilt stop Pac's momentum soo...not as useful. I may need to look into what a PP ftilt can do for pacman

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I couldn't do it consistently and thought it wasn't worth the trouble to learn, but I started putting some time intervals to practice it, and now it's just really easy. Despite it seeming a bit hard at first, keep practicing and find a comfortable way to do it.

I wanna see more characters use perfect pivots omg

Kirby's combo game is stupid as heck with perfect pivots, lol.

How so?

 

[BlueBirdE]

Falco can potentially do dthrow Perfect pivot utilt. But for right now perfect pivot just hasnt been developed that much from many players

 

[Aunt Jemima]

How so?

http://smashboards.com/threads/kirb...titive-discussion.369255/page-8#post-19925077

http://smashboards.com/threads/kirb...titive-discussion.369255/page-8#post-19926757

There's also a post that Smash G 0 D made in the video thread about covering DI options with Kirby's Perfect Pivot but I'm too lazy to find it.

Also, Phan7om found a cool option. If you use N-Air and it starts knocking down, if they miss the tech, you get three D-Tilts and then whatever you want. However, competent players most likely won't miss the tech. If Kirby PP F-Tilts you after the N-Air (true combo), it'll take you out of knockdown so your tech is turned into an airdodge due to the super long buffer window in Smash 4. So... he's either getting an airdodge punish or a jab reset!

 

[Nocally]

Why doesn't anybody use perfect pivoting except like... Sheik mains? It really isn't hard to learn, and there's a ton that comes out of it, so like...

where'd it go

ESAM uses perfect pivot taunt....... and PP U-tilt against Sheik.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

http://smashboards.com/threads/kirb...titive-discussion.369255/page-8#post-19925077

http://smashboards.com/threads/kirb...titive-discussion.369255/page-8#post-19926757

There's also a post that Smash G 0 D made in the video thread about covering DI options with Kirby's Perfect Pivot but I'm too lazy to find it.

Also, Phan7om found a cool option. If you use N-Air and it starts knocking down, if they miss the tech, you get three D-Tilts and then whatever you want. However, competent players most likely won't miss the tech. If Kirby PP F-Tilts you after the N-Air (true combo), it'll take you out of knockdown so your tech is turned into an airdodge due to the super long buffer window in Smash 4. So... he's either getting an airdodge punish or a jab reset!

That's... really cool actually.

 

[Trifroze]

Is there a list of aerial acceleration / deceleration / change of direction speeds for different characters anywhere? It's a really important mobility spec but I can't seem to find anything, perhaps due to searching with the wrong terms or in the wrong places. Might be a nice reference for how we look at character mobility in general.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

This isn't part of the post I linked, but it's noteworthy:

Kirby's D-Tilt combos into itself regardless of a trip at high percents (90%). However, this only works if you're using D-Tilt directly in front of the opponent, which isn't safe on shield unless you duck under their grab. However, if you use Perfect Pivot, you can use a max ranged D-Tilt and combo it into a reverse PP D-Tilt, essentially doubling your chance of a trip, and your chance at a kill. This is vital as Kirby needs kill set-ups in vanilla. Yay for PPs!

Sliding D-Tilt from the turnaround combos into itself regardless, but you need to use a stutterstep F-Smash if the second D-Tilt trips depending on the opponents' traction.

 

[A_Kae]

Is there a list of aerial acceleration / deceleration / change of direction speeds for different characters anywhere? It's a really important mobility spec but I can't seem to find anything, perhaps due to searching with the wrong terms or in the wrong places. Might be a nice reference for how we look at character mobility in general.

I believe this is what you're looking for: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-air-speed-rankings-and-values-now-with-raw-real-values.383217/#post-18656263

 

[Routa]

Some characters gain "a lot" from PP and some don't. If you ask me the gain is kinda meh. I mean I rather spend my time on learning MUs than learning few neat tricks with PP... But that is just me.

 

[PUK]

It's not meh. As a defensive tool it helps spacing your shield. If you have disjoints it helps outspacing.
It's non commital as a movement tool. Unlike dash and walk you face the same way after the move.
It useful, and add option. Wario has PP bite that win ton of stuff. PP dtilt seems good too.

 

[Yonder]

Speaking of perfect pivoting, maybe Luigi would be able to place at big events again if he mastered it, considering his is 2nd best.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I don't know about yall, but I have characters in my arsenal that have good Bairs. I often find myself doing RAR and PP Bairs as approaches. Doing it as a surprise or to establish a space is pretty useful. Saying it looks neat or something to that degree means that either your character doesn't need their bair or you aren't properly applying it.

 

[LightLV]

Falco can potentially do dthrow Perfect pivot utilt. But for right now perfect pivot just hasnt been developed that much from many players

im starting to wonder if it ever will. It's much harder than Wavedashing ever was, at least that required all digital inputs.

 

[DanGR]

What keeps me from practicing perfect pivots is mainly the non-existent margin of error. If you flub the input and dash attack your opponent's shield, that translates into 30% + offstage, or death. Rosalina (my main) has a short fox trot with similar use cases. The upgrade is minimal.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

@ Shaya @ Vipermoon

I've tried looking around the Marth/Lucina boards for answers, but why does Lucina have a longer perfect pivot than Marth? The same thing happens with Pit/Pittoo, too (heh). Anything found out regarding this?

 

[warionumbah2]

What keeps me from practicing perfect pivots is mainly the non-existent margin of error. If you flub the input and dash attack your opponent's shield, that translates into 30% + offstage, or death. Rosalina (my main) has a short fox trot with similar use cases. The upgrade is minimal.

Depends on the dash attack tbh.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Depends on the dash attack tbh.

Rosalina's at least is super punishable as long as you remember it's two hits (3 if you include Luma's version) and don't drop shield early.

It's still a good dash attack (IMO) but it's punishable and not a good approach.

 

[Shaya]

@ Aunt Jemima
Don't trust everything you see on the internet.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

What keeps me from practicing perfect pivots is mainly the non-existent margin of error. If you flub the input and dash attack your opponent's shield, that translates into 30% + offstage, or death. Rosalina (my main) has a short fox trot with similar use cases. The upgrade is minimal.

I mean, if you mess up a wavedash in Melee, you're gonna be punished heavily. Perfect Pivot is really muscle memory -- practice it so you DON'T mess up. Use it in friendlies, if you screw up there it isn't a big deal.

Although... Rosalina has a terrible perfect pivot distance, so there's not much use for it. The only good thing about it is that Perfect Pivot D-Tilt has Rosalina and Luma attack in opposite directions.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The guy of the PP thread/video said that Lucina and Marth's PP distances weren't different, but for some reason, when PP'ing an Utilt, Lucina would slide more.

 

[LancerStaff]

@ Shaya @ Vipermoon

I've tried looking around the Marth/Lucina boards for answers, but why does Lucina have a longer perfect pivot than Marth? The same thing happens with Pit/Pittoo, too (heh). Anything found out regarding this?

Pit and Dark Pit's are the same. Every base attribute is 100% the same, and everything besides arrows, Fspecials, Ftilts, Rapid Jab Finisher as of 1.1.0 (only on Wii U?) and a few other customs, they're the same.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Pit and Dark Pit's are the same. Every base attribute is 100% the same, and everything besides arrows, Fspecials, Ftilts, Rapid Jab Finisher as of 1.1.0 (only on Wii U?) and a few other customs, they're the same.

Oh, alright. Not sure why that MSC video said they were different...

Thanks for clearing that up~

 

[Blobface]

Of course Fthrow should kill. How a japanese angel with a cute teenage voice can send farther than the evil itself?
As soon as you learned to tech, and if you don't play a character with awful techroll, sitting in sheield against ganondorf is comfortable. That's an issue because that's what stop fox to being a monster.
Fox

Which actually makes me question something. Why do characters have different techrolls? There's not any correlation with weight or speed or anything, and it's downright silly in some matchups. Some characters like GnW, Little Mac, and Bowser get clobbered no matter what they do while Zelda techrolls halfway across the stage. It doesn't make any sense really.

Ganon with a kill throw would go under "luxury buffs" IMO. He does have a mediocre throw that he rarely uses with U-throw, but his throw game is already good with a good combo throw and two throws that are great for putting people offstage (Ganon's edgeguarding etc. etc.). And for the record, B-throw is a decent kill throw already, killing around 120-160% depending on position and rage. U-throw killing around the same %'s as his Dash Attack would be fine though.

And regarding perfect pivoting: I'd imagine that a lot of players, even top ones, are still trying to solidify matchups and fundamentals still. I don't really know honestly, makes me curious what a top player would have to say about this, cause Sheik, ZSS and a few others have really long PP distances.

 

[DanGR]

@ Aunt Jemima You can downtilt with Rosalina and Luma in opposite directions, standing still. Input down and slightly back (1/16th circle) on the control stick + A.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@PP discussion:

PP'd Ftilt is pretty great for Ike when used to retreat. Really hard for most characters to get past it as long as you aren't getting predictable with it. Great disjointed range, can be angled, can kill, less lag than you would think. PPing Dtilt/Utilt is occasionally used to spacing reasons.

I think in general though its just one of those things you forget exists. I mean you could go to the effort of a PP'd tilt... or you could just throw out a SH Aerial, Pivot Grab, or Jab. There's a limited number of situations where its the best option, and for some characters its basically not an option.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

@ Aunt Jemima You can downtilt with Rosalina and Luma in opposite directions, standing still. Input down and slightly back (1/16th circle) on the control stick + A.

Rosalina's Perfect Pivot confirmed useless, I guess.

Which actually makes me question something. Why do characters have different techrolls? There's not any correlation with weight or speed or anything, and it's downright silly in some matchups. Some characters like GnW, Little Mac, and Bowser get clobbered no matter what they do while Zelda techrolls halfway across the stage. It doesn't make any sense really.

Ganon with a kill throw would go under "luxury buffs" IMO. He does have a mediocre throw that he rarely uses with U-throw, but his throw game is already good with a good combo throw and two throws that are great for putting people offstage (Ganon's edgeguarding etc. etc.). And for the record, B-throw is a decent kill throw already, killing around 120-160% depending on position and rage. U-throw killing around the same %'s as his Dash Attack would be fine though.

And regarding perfect pivoting: I'd imagine that a lot of players, even top ones, are still trying to solidify matchups and fundamentals still. I don't really know honestly, makes me curious what a top player would have to say about this, cause Sheik, ZSS and a few others have really long PP distances.

ZeRo has said he's working on perfect pivots and would like to add them to his game, but his hands hurt too much due to... something.

This video's interesting~