Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

"Greninja's F-Air is 2 frames slower than I thought. Character is ruined forever."

Amazing logic.



Frame data is clearly everything, I mean, it's not like Captain Falcon has been high tier since forever despite having a frame data that's almost as bad as Greninja's or anything.

Oi.

I think there's a limit to how slow an aerial can be until it loses its effectiveness. I'm more willing to accept a 14 frame aerial than I am a 16 frame one. There's a huge difference between greninja and falcon. While they share similar frame data pretty sure most of falcons moves are just better like jab nair uair bair dash grab and dash attack.

 

[FullMoon]

2 frames slower in the realm of 10-20 frames can make a huge difference. f14 is verging on unreactable. f16 is reactable. ZSS' grab at f14 would be extremely different to play against. Luckily it's f16.

I'm aware, but F-Air is not even the most important tool in Greninja's arsenal (spacing with it is not as important now with shuriken zoning being stronger and basically making Greninja able to zone much more effectively and so not have to space himself with F-Air as often) and slow as it is stuff still combos into it for kills.

I wasn't saying that a frame difference is not important in general, but in this particular case I find claiming a character to be bad just because of it to be pretty ridiculous. It's not even his most important move.

I think there's a limit to how slow an aerial can be until it loses its effectiveness. I'm more willing to accept a 14 frame aerial than I am a 16 frame one. There's a huge difference between greninja and falcon. While they share similar frame data pretty sure most of falcons moves are just better like jab nair uair bair dash grab and dash attack.

The two characters aren't comparable outside of the fact that they both have bad frame data and are very fast. You can't really compare Greninja's N-Air or B-Air to Falcon's when they have different purposes.

 

[TriTails]

Also megaman doesn't lose to shield. If he is in range to pellet you, you are close enough to get dash or pivot grabbed faster than you can react. He also can just keep shooting your shield and get pokes. Sitting back and shielding vs metal blade, leaf shield, crash bomb and spaced bairs really doesn't last long.

And he is close enough to get dash grabbed if he's in pellet range. They have ending lag. If you want to spam pellets on my shield then get grabbed.

And I never, ever implied nor thought Mega lose to shields.

If you block pellets, I mean...why wouldnt he just back up and go back to...pelleting?

IS THAT EVEN A THING?!!?!?

Get cornered then. If you succeed on getting pass us then we just have to repeat the entire sequence. Fail and get combo'd.

Tomahawks also have niche uses against pellets (Unless you're executing it like an idiot). Mega can retreat all he want. Good luck retreating when you're on the other end of the stage.

I understand pellets can be used with trickery. E.g. Shoot one, turn away, shoot one, repeat. But it's not like they are lagless (One pellet has 35 frames of commitment I think) that you can just spam them all day and expect to not getting punished. You can do some unpredictable maneuvers with them? Sure. But we can also, with shield, rolls, tomahawks, etc.

But I'm no Mega expert myself. Would appreciate some corrections if there are errors on my analysis.

 

[Deadlybroth]

And he is close enough to get dash grabbed if he's in pellet range. They have ending lag. If you want to spam pellets on my shield then get grabbed.

And I never, ever implied nor thought Mega lose to shields.


Get cornered then. If you succeed on getting pass us then we just have to repeat the entire sequence. Fail and get combo'd.

Tomahawks also have niche uses against pellets (Unless you're executing it like an idiot). Mega can retreat all he want. Good luck retreating when you're on the other end of the stage.

I understand pellets can be used with trickery. E.g. Shoot one, turn away, shoot one, repeat. But it's not like they are lagless (One pellet has 35 frames of commitment I think) that you can just spam them all day and expect to not getting punished. You can do some unpredictable maneuvers with them? Sure. But we can also, with shield, rolls, tomahawks, etc.

But I'm no Mega expert myself. Would appreciate some corrections if there are errors on my analysis.

After firing a pellet, Megaman can immediately jump or walk in conjunction with firing 1-2 more pellets.

The way Megaman's pellets work is that once the first one is fired he has full mobility minus being able to run, so he can do things like walk > pellet > pellet > jump back > pellet in midair. All the endlag does is that its the amount of time before Megaman can do any other action besides those.

So in short, Megaman isn't just a sitting duck. Realistically you aren't going to be punishing his pellets unless he just stands there and does his jab combo. You don't even need to fire out 3 pellets at a time either, you can fire one > jump forward/back > pellet > jump again and if you try to punish then there's always a threat of another pellet stuffing your approach.

It's pretty analagous to Megaman games. You don't stand and shoot pellets in place, you move around and jump, otherwise you're gonna get hit.

 

[Ffamran]

Situational uses of a move makes it situational. Those aren't good moves. Falcon doesn't need to bait air dodges after uair. Certain percentages it combos into fair. Yoshi can actually weave in and out of his fair greninja cannot.

Yes, they are good moves. All moves are situational. You're not going to jab to kill unless your jab can kill, you're not going to extend a combo with a hitboxless Up Special, and you're not going to spike with a Side Smash. All moves have their purpose and some are just more limited to few or one purpose.

My wording may have been bad, but I said Captain Falcon can setup Fair from Uair or punish air dodges. Yoshi can weave with Fair while Greninja cannot. Your point being? Not all characters can weave aerials. If they could, Zelda would have one of the stupidest Fair and Bair in the game.

I thought fair was faster. 16 frames is an unacceptable greninja is bad and I was just starting to change my opinion on him. If they don't fix his frame data he's screwed.

Yes, a character is doomed because he has a frame 16 Fair. Greninja still has a frame 5 Bair and frame 7 Uair. The only "strange" thing would be his frame 12 Nair like Lucario's frame 16 Bair. Slow Dairs, like his frame 17 Dair, aren't uncommon. His Smashes are slow and guess who else has slow Smashes? Captain Falcon who is considered a fantastic character. Funny enough, Greninja has faster Smashes. Greninja's jab is frame 3, common, Dash Attack is frame 9 which is just 2 frames slower than Meta Knight's, but like Utilt, also frame 9, flattens his hurtbox, Ftilt is frame 10, a little unusual for a fast-moving character, but the same frame as Ganondorf's and 1 frame slower than Captain Falcon's, Dtilt is frame 5, fast. So, what's the problem? His frame data is fairly average with outliers that make his average slower.

Seriously, with your train of thought, Captain Falcon, Greninja, Ike, Shulk, Bowser, Triple D, Ganondorf, DK?, Lucario, Palutena, Robin, and Link would be the worst characters in the franchise. The best would be (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Kirby, Meta Knight, Sheik, Falco, Little Mac, Diddy, Ryu, and Fox.

 

[Minordeth]

I decided to check out Link's frame data and compare it to the other sword fighters, and actually, he isn't quite as slow as you would think. Yeah, his jab is frame 7 - gross. His tilts are a mixed bag.

On the one hand, his F-tilt is frame 15, which is two frames slower than Ike, but it's also got 55 bkb and does 13 damage, which is stronger than Roy's hilter Ftilt at 12.5, and somewhat safer given the range and somewhat slower recovery (still a few frames faster than Ike's admittedly superior Ftilt).

His Utilt is frame 8, which is slightly slower than Roy's and Marth's at frames 7 and 6 respectively, but it does 9 damage, which is as strong as Marth's tipper'd Utilt and Bowser's Utilt with comparable ending lag to Marth (38 vs 36 FAF).

Dtilt is slower at frame 11, but it has relatively low ending lag. The closest comparison is probably Captain Falcon's Dtilt, which is the same frames but slightly less damage (10 vs 11), and CF's is about six frames slower.

Link's aerials are probably his best buttons. That Nair is ridiculous - frame 7 with 11 damage. It's basically a slower Fox Nair with one frame less of landing lag (10 to 11). It has extremely similar FAF as well with analogous autocancel windows. You have to be a bit more precise, but it's quick and it hurts. His Fair and Bair stay out a bit longer than his compatriots, although his landing lag on both is 12 and 10, which makes RAR'd Bair pretty safe as a spacing tool.

Of note, his Zair has 8 frames of landing lag by default and is just slightly less powerful with slightly less knockback than ZSS'.

This is a bit limited because his Smashes are so different than his buddies, but it's hard to see what could use a buff besides his jab. Especially his Ftilt. If his Ftilt became faster, it could run into abuse territory really quickly.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm aware, but F-Air is not even the most important tool in Greninja's arsenal (spacing with it is not as important now with shuriken zoning being stronger and basically making Greninja able to zone much more effectively and so not have to space himself with F-Air as often) and slow as it is stuff still combos into it for kills.

I wasn't saying that a frame difference is not important in general, but in this particular case I find claiming a character to be bad just because of it to be pretty ridiculous. It's not even his most important move.



The two characters aren't comparable outside of the fact that they both have bad frame data and are very fast. You can't really compare Greninja's N-Air or B-Air to Falcon's when they have different purposes.

Falcon and greninja nair both are combo starters. Falcon and greninja bair are both used for edgeguards. The main difference is falcons bair can be used as a spacing tool as well. Unless I'm missing something here seems like these moves are used for fenerally the same thing.

Yes, they are good moves. All moves are situational. You're not going to jab to kill unless your jab can kill, you're not going to extend a combo with a hitboxless Up Special, and you're not going to spike with a Side Smash. All moves have their purpose and some are just more limited to few or one purpose.

My wording may have been bad, but I said Captain Falcon can setup Fair from Uair or punish air dodges. Yoshi can weave with Fair while Greninja cannot. Your point being? Not all characters can weave aerials. If they could, Zelda would have one of the stupidest Fair and Bair in the game.


Yes, a character is doomed because he has a frame 16 Fair. Greninja still has a frame 5 Bair and frame 7 Uair. The only "strange" thing would be his frame 12 Nair like Lucario's frame 16 Bair. Slow Dairs, like his frame 17 Dair, aren't uncommon. His Smashes are slow and guess who else has slow Smashes? Captain Falcon who is considered a fantastic character. Funny enough, Greninja has faster Smashes. Greninja's jab is frame 3, common, Dash Attack is frame 9 which is just 2 frames slower than Meta Knight's, but like Utilt, also frame 9, flattens his hurtbox, Ftilt is frame 10, a little unusual for a fast-moving character, but the same frame as Ganondorf and 1 frame slower than Captain Falcon's, Dtilt is frame 5, fast. So, what's the problem? His frame data is fairly average with outliers that make his average slower.

Seriously, with your train of thought, Captain Falcon, Greninja, Ike, Shulk, Bowser, Triple D, Ganondorf, DK?, Lucario, Palutena, Robin, and Link would be the worst characters in the franchise. The best would be (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Kirby, Meta Knight, Sheik, Falco, Little Mac, Diddy, Ryu, and Fox.

I'm pretty sure I posted my point about Yoshi's fair. The fact that he can weave in and out makes it a better move than Greninja's fair. So I can see it getting more use than greninjas move.

If a move is only good in a certain situation it's not a very good move. It has limited uses and isn't something to be relied on.

Yes there's other factors to take into account when considering moves than frame data. There's ways to play around poir frame data but you get exposed VS those with great frame data.

I'm not sure if you've paid attention but I have most of those characters rated poorly with the exception of Falcon and I have most of those characters rated highly with the exception of doc mario and lil mac. Those characters however will never be bottom 5 or 10 in my mind. Their framedata is way too strong for that. I have falco rated pretty highly because of his frame data. A 2 frame jab is a god send. Most characters don't have jabs that fast it's an extremely strong tool. When you're in cqc situations your hab only loses to two characters.

Just to go a bit further frame data is important as is range also. Every character has an ideal range where they want to keep an opponent at. When your best spacing tool is so slow it gives your opponent a better chance to get into your spaces. It's also gives your opponent more time to react.

When I look at greninja and see his frame data I'm like jab and dtilt are nice but that not enough.

 

[Trifroze]

Overall frame data isn't all that important as long as your moveset works as an entirety. You only need a few quick moves to get out of bad situations and to start combos, the rest doesn't matter. I'll rather combo a 6 frame uair into a 14 frame fair that kills at 70% than a 5 frame fair that kills at 170%, as long as I have something else to somewhat replace the latter option in neutral. ZSS and Falcon for example have such ridiculous punish games because they have some good frame data and some slower powerful moves mixed together. Knee is the strongest non-meteoring aerial in the game, and I believe flip kick is the strongest meteor after Ganondorf's dair and down b, possibly approximately tied with DK's fair (haven't tested this myself yet).

Greninja is supposed to be something like Falcon and ZSS, although he lacks some of that power and gets a few other things to replace that like having a dash grab close to Falcon level and a recovery close to ZSS level, plus a more spammable projectile.

E:

Regarding strongest meteors:

1: Ganondorf's down b
2: Ganondorf's dair
3: DK's fair
4: DK's dair
5: Diddy's dair
5: ZSS' down b

Next I presume we'd get Charizard, Falcon (probably everything but at least dair and side b), Ike and Mewtwo in some order.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Overall frame data isn't all that important as long as your moveset works as an entirety. You only need a few quick moves to get out of bad situations and to start combos, the rest doesn't matter. I'll rather combo a 6 frame uair into a 14 frame fair that kills at 70% than a 5 frame fair that kills at 170%, as long as I have something else to somewhat replace the latter option in neutral. ZSS and Falcon for example have such ridiculous punish games because they have some good frame data and some slower powerful moves mixed together. Knee is the strongest non-meteoring aerial in the game, and I believe flip kick is the strongest meteor after Ganondorf's dair and down b, possibly approximately tied with DK's fair (haven't tested this myself yet).

Greninja is supposed to be something like Falcon and ZSS, although he lacks some of that power and gets a few other things to replace that like having a dash grab close to Falcon level and a recovery close to ZSS level, plus a more spammable projectile.

Ok if Falcon's jab was 30 frames instead of 3 wpuld is be as good? Of course not frame data is important and you either got it or you don't. Greninja's setups into his fair don't kill until late I believe which makes it bad based on your standards. Ryu's fair doesn't kill until late percentages but it's one of the best fairs in the game same with Sheik. I'd take those fair over greninja or falcon.

Whatever your personal preference for a mkve is doesn't make it good.

 

[Shaya]

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY you're kinda wasting people's time there because you missed his point entirely, as long as your moveset works as an entirety.
Yes the best moves of each type tend to be the "sheik slaps" rather than the "falcon knees", but most of the time a character doesn't crutch on just one move.

 

[TriTails]

After firing a pellet, Megaman can immediately jump or walk in conjunction with firing 1-2 more pellets.

The way Megaman's pellets work is that once the first one is fired he has full mobility minus being able to run, so he can do things like walk > pellet > pellet > jump back > pellet in midair. All the endlag does is that its the amount of time before Megaman can do any other action besides those.

So in short, Megaman isn't just a sitting duck. Realistically you aren't going to be punishing his pellets unless he just stands there and does his jab combo. You don't even need to fire out 3 pellets at a time either, you can fire one > jump forward/back > pellet > jump again and if you try to punish then there's always a threat of another pellet stuffing your approach.

It's pretty analagous to Megaman games. You don't stand and shoot pellets in place, you move around and jump, otherwise you're gonna get hit.

You're not really disagreeing with me here. If you jump back, that's what we WANT. Soon we'll push you to the corner of the stage, and you have to get through us. The point of shielding pellets is to force you to move back, else you're getting punished.

Like I said, certain trickeries can be done with pellets, but that doesn't mean Luigi can't approach or being tricky himself.

Besides, it's not like hitting a pellet cause a OHKO or something. They do 2% per pop with very very little hitstun. If we get a pellet then we just suck it up and keep doing what we're doing, as you are a combo food and can be combo'd very well.

 

[bc1910]

Frame data helps, but it isn't everything. It might keep Greninja out of top tier but it's not a good enough reason to rank him below high tier. And yeah, his frame data isn't bad, there are just outliers that drag the average down, mostly his aerials and specials. His smashes besides Dsmash aren't slow by the way, Fsmash is frame 13 which is above average (FYI it's 1 frame slower than Sheik's, 2 frames faster than Mario's) and Usmash is frame 12.

Greninja plays like ZSS in the way his aerials work. He can play like Falcon too, basically being annoying in mid range and forcing dash grab/attack 50/50s with both attacks leading to his great advantage state on hit. Greninja's DA and DG aren't as good as Falcon's but he has the added luxury of being able to run away and spam shurikens which is infinitely safer.

Greninja's zoning is really good now, you can outcamp most characters because the projectile travels quickly and the charge ability makes it versatile. Short hop double shurikens are amazing against characters who like to space around with their projectiles in the air while they zone, such as Mario and Pikachu. Shurikens not being affected by gravity is pretty big in these camping wars.

When it comes to heavy campers like Link and Mega Man, the fully charged (transcendent) variant is useful. The startup buff lets you full hop, charge the shuriken and fire it almost as soon as you land, so with good timing you can jump over their projectiles and fire the shuriken, forcing them to shield, then start spamming B. Don't forget that if you think you're gonna land on a projectile or they start dashing in to Usmash you, you can release the shuriken in the air and jump away. Remember shurikens still have their old ending lag in the air.

His top 6 running speed contributes to his great zoning because it allows him to incorporate speed camping like Sonic. Ftilt and Fsmash out of a run pivot are both great options too; both have great range, Ftilt is really safe and Fsmash is powerful and disjointed.

Going back to his frame data, it's good in a lot of areas that matter. Frame 3 jab is common but that's a great speed for a "get off me" move, and Greninja doesn't want people staying in his face. Midrange options are good, DA and DG both frame 9. His projectile moves as fast or nearly as fast as needles and now fires on a respectable frame 20 (many others fire faster but move a LOT slower).

What you end up with is one of the best zoners in the game who is strong at mid range and advantage, but doesn't exactly want to stay in on people. With shurikens being good, Greninja's qualities come together to make a powerful, coherent character.

I'm not really trying to sway anyone's opinion of Greninja here, I've learned that trying to do so is usually a fruitless endeavour. People are usually hung up on stuff like "bad frame data" or "bad results" and there's always more to the story than those blanket statements but there's no point arguing. Plus most people now recognise how good he is anyway. Just wanted to add to the discussion by noting few of his strengths.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja's setups into his fair don't kill until late I believe which makes it bad based on your standards.

Whatever your personal preference for a mkve is doesn't make it good.

N-Air can combo into F-Air at low kill %s, so can a fully charged Water Shuriken and Dash Attack. With the assistance of rage D-Throw -> F-Air can start killing people at around 100-110% too.

Don't forget that if you think you're gonna land on a projectile or they start dashing in to Usmash you, you can release the shuriken in the air and jump away.

In some cases you might not even need to jump, thanks to the shuriken stalling Greninja in the air for a bit. Just thought of adding this.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY you're kinda wasting people's time there because you missed his point entirely, as long as your moveset works as an entirety.
Yes the best moves of each type tend to be the "sheik slaps" rather than the "falcon knees", but most of the time a character doesn't crutch on just one move.

Na I just completely and totally reject his premise. As long as he or anyone else attempts to claim frame data isn't very important they're full of it.

@ FullMoon I wasn't toi sure if the percentages so thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

As long as he or anyone else attempts to claim frame data isn't very important they're full of it.

He never said that

 

[Trifroze]

Na I just completely and totally reject his premise. As long as he or anyone else attempts to claim frame data isn't very important they're full of it.

You're either misunderstanding or twisting my premise which was:

1. overall frame data isn't very important
2. you need a few quick moves

You don't need five different sub 8 frame aerials, only one or two, which you use for bursting out of combos in disadvantage, rising out of a shorthop or for comboing into itself. In most other scenarios the speed of the move doesn't have much impact as long as it's not reactable because you use it while you're jumping higher on juggles or SHFFing down getting to your desired height which will take more frames than what basically any aerial in the game is. Also when we talk of something that's slow enough to react to, we're realistically talking at least 17-20 frames because the input and the startup frames for stuff like airdodge, shield and spotdodge take 1-3 frames in addition to your reaction time depending on which one you're doing. Pure reaction on even a 16 frame move is godlike unless that's all you're anticipating and focusing on, and even then it's pretty good.

You don't need many fast ground moves either, one 2-3 frame jab and either a good DA or dash grab can easily save you and punish the opponent in every perceivable scenario even if you have terrible tilts and smashes (not referring to any particular character here though).

Throw in one or two reliable ~10 frame aerials or smashes that kill (there's a trend of those being bair, uair and usmash) and after that the rest of your moveset should be focused on something else than raw speed and safety, and that leaves quite a few slots for that. Even if most of that remaining moveset is utter garbage, stuff like mobility and recovery are way more important and often help you actually utilize the stuff you've been given even if it's scarce. Simply having great overall frame data doesn't do you anything if you can't setup reliable kills within decent percentages unless you have Sheik level neutral.

 

[Deadlybroth]

You're not really disagreeing with me here. If you jump back, that's what we WANT. Soon we'll push you to the corner of the stage, and you have to get through us. The point of shielding pellets is to force you to move back, else you're getting punished.

Like I said, certain trickeries can be done with pellets, but that doesn't mean Luigi can't approach or being tricky himself.

Besides, it's not like hitting a pellet cause a OHKO or something. They do 2% per pop with very very little hitstun. If we get a pellet then we just suck it up and keep doing what we're doing, as you are a combo food and can be combo'd very well.

When Megaman jumps backwards he doesn't always shoot pellets, by the time you land most of the time pellet endlag has ended so Megaman is free to do any option. Then you have the choice of repeating the cycle or playing footsies with Megaman at a positionally disadvantaged state.

But Megaman doesn't have to jump backwards though. He can jump in place and shoot single pellets to apply pressure. While you're in shield, your options are limited to shield drop > approach, shield drop > run away, jump > aerial, or roll backwards.

If you approach on the ground and Megaman reads it, he can do a couple of things like jump in > sweetspot nair, dtilt, or grab. Nair approach only works on characters who are tall enough to get hit by it, dtilt can be shielded and depending on spacing, so can nair. And since grab can be spotdodged its just a game of yomi after the shield drop.

If you approach in the air then Megaman can interrupt aerials with more pellets.

When you shield pellets it isn't forcing Megaman to move back, he has plenty of options.

Rushdown is generally the better option, which is why Megaman loses to characters like Captain Falcon. The lack of a normal jab/ftilt really hurts Megaman in the "get off me" moves department. But Luigi is no Captain Falcon. He's 34th in run speed iirc. I haven't played many Luigis let alone a good one but here's how I see it play out if Luigi tries to rushdown. Luigi gets hit by a pellet or two at max range and continues to rushdown while Megaman jumps back slightly to readjust spacing and shoots some more pellets at max range again. I see this going on 3-4 more times until Luigi is close enough to grab/bait a spotdodge and Megaman either shields or spotdodges upon landing. With Captain Falcon this would happen a max of 2 times. But Luigi isn't as good at rushdown so he takes a bunch of chip damage.

My point is that pellets are rarely punished and shields don't force Megaman to move back. (Imo that kinda means they lose to shields.) If it was so then pellets wouldn't be good at all. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say about pellets.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This was pretty dope.

https://youtu.be/cNcsRauOHFM

 

[~ Gheb ~]

http://pulse-gaming.challonge.com/SFW2

Ryuga beat Ally's Mario.

Do I need more proof about Ike being high tier yet?

Yes, you do.

Beating Mario means nothing. Every character can beat Mario.

 

[Shaya]

I funnily enough wanted to say the exact same thing but I had a feeling you would for me.
EVEN THOUGH I THINK MARIO IS GUDish?

Viable is a touchy word
how about "Solid"
everyone wants to be as solid as Ike, and Pit, and Greninja, and ROB.

If they're not diamonds better already.

 

[TriTails]

When Megaman jumps backwards he doesn't always shoot pellets, by the time you land most of the time pellet endlag has ended so Megaman is free to do any option. Then you have the choice of repeating the cycle or playing footsies with Megaman at a positionally disadvantaged state.

But Megaman doesn't have to jump backwards though. He can jump in place and shoot single pellets to apply pressure. While you're in shield, your options are limited to shield drop > approach, shield drop > run away, jump > aerial, or roll backwards.

If you approach on the ground and Megaman reads it, he can do a couple of things like jump in > sweetspot nair, dtilt, or grab. Nair approach only works on characters who are tall enough to get hit by it, dtilt can be shielded and depending on spacing, so can nair. And since grab can be spotdodged its just a game of yomi after the shield drop.

If you approach in the air then Megaman can interrupt aerials with more pellets.

When you shield pellets it isn't forcing Megaman to move back, he has plenty of options.

Rushdown is generally the better option, which is why Megaman loses to characters like Captain Falcon. The lack of a normal jab/ftilt really hurts Megaman in the "get off me" moves department. But Luigi is no Captain Falcon. He's 34th in run speed iirc. I haven't played many Luigis let alone a good one but here's how I see it play out if Luigi tries to rushdown. Luigi gets hit by a pellet or two at max range and continues to rushdown while Megaman jumps back slightly to readjust spacing and shoots some more pellets at max range again. I see this going on 3-4 more times until Luigi is close enough to grab/bait a spotdodge and Megaman either shields or spotdodges upon landing. With Captain Falcon this would happen a max of 2 times. But Luigi isn't as good at rushdown so he takes a bunch of chip damage.

My point is that pellets are rarely punished and shields don't force Megaman to move back. (Imo that kinda means they lose to shields.) If it was so then pellets wouldn't be good at all. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say about pellets.

I must be really dumb for not understanding your post but.

1. You move backwards, and you are free to do any action. Any action other than projectiles are generally punishable. So uh, what exactly? I'm willing to repeat the process because I know if you are moving backwards, my strategy is working. Ain't gonna play footsies on a character with something as pellets as most of Luigi's footsies take place in the air.
2. I've heard this as a game mechanic and I don't know if it's true but I heard shieldstun replaces shield drop lag. Pellets have like 1 frame of shieldstun. If Luigi drop his shield when a pellet hits his shield then he is only going to take 1 frame of shield drop lag, which gives him some huge frame advantage.

Yes. We approach him from the ground. N-air stuffs pellets but IDK if that's of any use. When Mega decides to do something else other than pellets, it's pretty much guessing game, which builds a lot of this MU actually.

Luigi can take all the chip damage and return it to you in a single get in. Hitting a pellet is mostly inevitable when fighting Mega, but those chip damages can be easily returned by Luigi due to his combos and your archetype.

My point is that Luigi doesn't lose to pellets alone. This MU is in Mega's favor, don't think there's any contest about that. I was just trying to imply that Luigi doesn't lose to the A button alone, even though he has to struggle quite a bit while also taking a chance at guessing game. Mega has options, but so does Luigi.

IMO, this MU is 60:40 Mega, but IDK if Mega mains think it's worse. Maybe it's bordering on 65:35 or even 70:30, but I was just saying you can't beat Luigi by just using pellets alone.

 

[Minordeth]

I know it's Bowser, but those footstool combos... This is probably the first time I've been impressed with a Toon Link. His speed coupled with his height and short hop probably make footstool combos much more user friendly. I

Also, Ike is now apparently the Rodney Dangerfield of Smash 4.

 

[Routa]

Also, Ike is now apparently the Rodney Dangerfield of Smash 4.

Who?

 

[outfoxd]

Who?

See, he gets no respect.

 

[Blobface]

Just a quick note here: Ganon's D-air is generally stronger than Wizkick except for a small window from, I dunno, 0-30%? Wizkick has higher BKB.

Also, Ganondorf can land Footstool --> Wizkick spike on some characters, which he can even set up into with a tipman U-air near the ledge. Of course, it's dependent on fall speed, air speed and character size, so it's far from reliable, but if it does work they're 200% dead.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Meanwhile, (Dr.) Mario, Yoshi, and Peach with their frame 16 Fair, Captain Falcon, Link, Toon Link, Shulk, Bowser Jr., and Ganondorf with their frame 14 Fair, DK with his frame 18 Fair, and Triple D with his frame 13 Fair. What's your point exactly? You have Yoshi, Shulk, and Peach approaching with slow as **** moves and succeeding. You have Toon Link, DK, Bowser Jr., and Triple D comboing with slow as **** moves.

What DK or Ganon uses fair to combo? The Ganons use it for edgeguarding and DKS use it for disrespect. The reason being is the landing lag is so bad. If it was manageable, then sure, but it's not. Many of those characters listed have low eblnough landing lag that the startup is ok.

"Everything wrong with _____ in Smash 4" videos for every character would actually be interesting and possibly beneficial... as long as the videos aren't dramatic and overstate certain weaknesses. Stuff like Greninja/Teleport characters bouncing off stages and dying is absolutely huge, and moves with giant deadzones (DK used to have these problems before they got fixed right?) are always helpful, as well as multihit moves that people just fall out of or don't connect properly (Samus Jab, Upair, UpB, Fair, Upsmash ) or Kirby's multijab, before this patch. Also all those multijabs that are stupidly easy to DI out of, at least for floaty characters. I know as Kirby that whenever Bowser Jr, Kirby, or certain other characters get me in a multijab, no matter how good their spacing was initially, I can DI out of it and punish. It's pretty dumb!

DK's hitboxes still whiff with many moves like ftilt, dtilt, punch, nair, uair, utilt, and jab. Only fsmash was addressed and usmash isn't now garbage.

And lol to "my character has bad frame data". Unless you play heavies, that really shouldn't be a saying (and since Cf is a heavy..............).

Sry if I was nitpicking in this post, but these statements just irked me a bit.

 

[Blobface]

Actually, Ganon's F-air is really good for comboing out of Flame Choke. Run Forward --> SH F-air covers every getup option but inward roll since he pushes you with him while running. In addition, he can use it to set a DI trap near the ledge with D-throw/F-throw. If you DI in, D-throw will true combo into F-air, likely for a kill. If you DI out, F-throw will send you extra far offstage at a terrible angle.

He'd probably use it a lot more if it wasn't overshadowed by U-air in a lot of situations.

 

[Ffamran]

What DK or Ganon uses fair to combo? The Ganons use it for edgeguarding and DKS use it for disrespect. The reason being is the landing lag is so bad. If it was manageable, then sure, but it's not. Many of those characters listed have low eblnough landing lag that the startup is ok.

Dude, I never even mentioned Ganondorf can use Fair to combo. Only DK is lucky enough to setup a Fair from cargo U-throw at certain percents.

He'd probably use it a lot more if it wasn't overshadowed by U-air in a lot of situations.

It helps that Uair is 8 frames faster.

 

[Zelbur]

This is what I think about Ganon in Sm4sh.

One other thing that can really make a character good is a kill throw. If you can rack up percent, your neutral can be bad, you can have laggy moves (to an extent), but if you get a grab at high percent, it's stock.

Shiek gets past that by having amazing frame data and kill setups. R.O.B. has a really strong Dthrow > Uair. Ness has an amazingly strong Bthrow, which ends up netting him like 50% of his kills. These features really help their characters, and unfortunately, I think that Mr. doesn't really have any of these options for kills.

One reason I would say Ganon is low threat wise is because he doesn't have a really strong killthrow. (He's the king of evil, why can't he be stronger than Ness?) If I requested a change for Ganon, I would want his Back and Foward throw to have more knockback.

As @ Trifroze mentioned, I agree that a character needs a good sub-8-frame get-off-me attack, and I think that Ganon doesn't really have that. His Nair is fast and so is his Uair, but his hurtbox is so big he can just get combo'ed to high percent. He doesn't have a Yoshi or Luigi Nair. For him to be more of a threat, he needs to have better defensive options.

Now to argue in Ganon's defense. He has a good jab (Frame 8) and a good Ftilt that is surprisingly safe in the neutral, a lagless Usmash, and his Uair auto-cancels, which means it's relatively safe on shield. His punish game is great, simply because he does so much damage, and his smashes kill really early. I'm really glad the gave him a combo throw, which means a grab does that much more percent.

These benefits above are what makes the character playable imo. Ganon really just has to be regarded with caution. If you play against him right, you shouldn't lose with a High or Top tier character. He gets combo'ed easily, and his neutral is bad, which means easy grabs which means lots of damage. He can be gimped easily and he doesn't have many follow-ups to aerials.
I would put Ganon after Mewtwo threat-wise.

 

[LancerStaff]

I would put Ganon after Mewtwo threat-wise.

You had me, then you lost me...

 

[Jabejazz]

Now to argue in Ganon's defense. He has a good jab (Frame 8)

Heavens, that's an extremely low standard to label a jab as good.

 

[PUK]

Of course Fthrow should kill. How a japanese angel with a cute teenage voice can send farther than the evil itself?
As soon as you learned to tech, and if you don't play a character with awful techroll, sitting in sheield against ganondorf is comfortable. That's an issue because that's what stop fox to being a monster.
Fox

 

[Routa]

I don't want to be a jerk, but...

He is Ganondorf. Not Ganon.

 

[Zelbur]

You had me, then you lost me...

I went back and looked at the OP, and saw where they put mewtwo, and I think he's abit better than that....

 

[Patriot Duck]

This really highlights just how great DK's grab reward is. There's no way he can't be viable in some form at this point.

 

[FullMoon]

52% out of a grab oh my god.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

This really highlights just how great DK's grab reward is. There's no way he can't be viable in some form at this point.

Throw combos don't erraticate major flaws.

 

[Yonder]

This really highlights just how great DK's grab reward is. There's no way he can't be viable in some form at this point.

I certainly think he is viable, especially with customs which are now frowned upon, poor DK. The best heavyweight easily. He's pretty fast for a heavy too.

 

[LightLV]

I guess they really don't know how to make fast, combo heavy characters lol. Maybe they'll remove her kill setups... make her like Duck Hunt

kappa

IMO, the reason fast, combo heavy, low-lag characters in smash are always OP is because the game has never added any mechanics to stop that playstyle from being optimal. There's no way to break throws (and you can be grabbed midair), and defensive attributes on block have basically been removed.

The big reason though is that hitstun has always been knockback dependent, with no other variable to change it (like with hitlag or shieldstun). This automatically means characters with fast, low-knockback moves are the ones with the best combos, but it also means there's no middleground for combo starters UNLESS the combo starter is a move with very low recovery time or landing lag to begin with. If Smash's movesets had some moves with set hitstun, like some more risky moves used 0.5x hitstun instead of 0.4x (or whatever smash4 uses) it would allow characters some followup regardless of damage or KB, and everyone would at least have one move to be able to confirm from.

Then slower and laggy characters would stand a viable chance without having to have ridiculous hitboxes or autocancel attributes. Conflate that towards shieldpush/lag and the meta would be able to balance itself out better.

Speedy, lagless characters would still have much better options. But midtier, and especially more laggy characters, would be able to punish them muuuuchhh harder once they caught them with a mistake.

But as it currently stands, the ability to punish hard or get kills is reliant on reads more than confirms for the midtiers...but the hightiers are the safest characters in the game. And it just goes downhill from there on the roster.

 

[Problem2]

This is what I think about Ganon in Sm4sh.

One other thing that can really make a character good is a kill throw. If you can rack up percent, your neutral can be bad, you can have laggy moves (to an extent), but if you get a grab at high percent, it's stock.

Shiek gets past that by having amazing frame data and kill setups. R.O.B. has a really strong Dthrow > Uair. Ness has an amazingly strong Bthrow, which ends up netting him like 50% of his kills. These features really help their characters, and unfortunately, I think that Mr. doesn't really have any of these options for kills.

One reason I would say Ganon is low threat wise is because he doesn't have a really strong killthrow. (He's the king of evil, why can't he be stronger than Ness?) If I requested a change for Ganon, I would want his Back and Foward throw to have more knockback.

As @ Trifroze mentioned, I agree that a character needs a good sub-8-frame get-off-me attack, and I think that Ganon doesn't really have that. His Nair is fast and so is his Uair, but his hurtbox is so big he can just get combo'ed to high percent. He doesn't have a Yoshi or Luigi Nair. For him to be more of a threat, he needs to have better defensive options.

Now to argue in Ganon's defense. He has a good jab (Frame 8) and a good Ftilt that is surprisingly safe in the neutral, a lagless Usmash, and his Uair auto-cancels, which means it's relatively safe on shield. His punish game is great, simply because he does so much damage, and his smashes kill really early. I'm really glad the gave him a combo throw, which means a grab does that much more percent.

These benefits above are what makes the character playable imo. Ganon really just has to be regarded with caution. If you play against him right, you shouldn't lose with a High or Top tier character. He gets combo'ed easily, and his neutral is bad, which means easy grabs which means lots of damage. He can be gimped easily and he doesn't have many follow-ups to aerials.
I would put Ganon after Mewtwo threat-wise.

I would suggest that his up-b has more knock back instead of one of his regular throws. He's slow, but then he's being offset by his multitude of command throw options.