Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[David Viran]

> except vs.

Except no. Zss can keep him out the same as samus, I guess, with nairs and zairs and all that.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Eh, it doesn't matter. The move combos into and from stuff, kills, has good range and is a good spacing tool because of it. The landing lag is not bad either

Sure I would love if it was faster but the move is very good already as it is.

But it does matter. It changes your approach and limits your options. I think it's his best move but compared to other fairs, it doesn't stack up.

 

[TTTTTsd]

So, what I'm hearing is that Mewtwo needs the WFT treatment.

That about sum it up?

Seems that way. Looks like the video only scratched the surface and didn't get into the real meaty stuff like in here, unfortunately. Perhaps someone more informed can get all of this stuff recorded? Perhaps I'll try, seeing as I'm partially invested in this now (I spose...)

Regardless I still think that despite all that stuff likely needing some tuning up, the first thing I'd touch is weight =P

 

[SpottedCerberus]

yea, actually. his weird hitboxes aren't going to pop up too much in regular gameplay (excluding his grab hitbox, like wtf), but you'll still encounter them nontheless.

The teleport thing is a real issue though. Although being knocked out of the start-up is possible for pretty much any teleporting move. Bouncing off stages is really annoying and it happens way too often.

The b-air, f-air, and grab hitboxes are definitely an issue. Maybe u-air too. The u-tilt one is annoying, but whatever. Jab and f-smash hitboxes aren't that bad, especially when Mewtwo has d-smash, which is basically a second f-smash.

Yoshi DJing out of f-throw is weird as hell, but tolerable.

Confusion being punishable on hit is pretty irritating as well, one thing the video didn't show. The video actually missed a lot of stuff. But it's a nice start.

The big issue with Mewtwo is that he should be a glass cannon but, instead, he's just......broken glass.

 

[DeLux]

All good! I think its a slight advantage for ZSS, but the crouching can make it fairly difficult. I know @ DeLux has said he thinks its ZSS's hardest matchup but he may have been joking. I never know with him, lol

For the record, Sheik is fairly easily ZSS's hardest MU, like 65 35 levels of bad. If the top sheik's were even in the ball park of optimized in punish game in the same levels as the top ZSS's, it would be slaughter level bad. Thank God Sheik just does whatever she wants so the character's potential isn't fully realized.

Followed by Fox, Pikachu, Diddy, Mii Brawller, Olimar, and Kirby are pretty bad MU's (I play all customs legal though, so this is probably why it's a huge departure from others). Somewhere between 65-35 and 55-45. Probably in this order.

Slightly bad MUs include Captain Falcon, Mario, Ness, GW, Yoshi, MK, Jiggs (believe it or not), Sonic, Rosaluma. Between 55-45 and 50's. Especially with customs, Mario, Sonic and Rosaluma MUs change drastically.

Everything else is pretty close to even or slight her favor.

I am pretty confident that she beats ROB pretty soundly.

 

[FullMoon]

But it does matter. It changes your approach and limits your options. I think it's his best move but compared to other fairs, it doesn't stack up.

Then the question becomes why is Greninja approaching in the first place.

Also F-Air as Greninja's best move wtf.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The teleport thing is a real issue though. Although being knocked out of the start-up is possible for pretty much any teleporting move. Bouncing off stages is really annoying and it happens way too often.

The b-air, f-air, and grab hitboxes are definitely an issue. Maybe u-air too. The u-tilt one is annoying, but whatever. Jab and f-smash hitboxes aren't that bad, especially when Mewtwo has d-smash, which is basically a second f-smash.

Yoshi DJing out of f-throw is weird as hell, but tolerable.

Confusion being punishable on hit is pretty irritating as well, one thing the video didn't show. The video actually missed a lot of stuff. But it's a nice start.

Entertainingly, despite how it was presented in the video, M2's teleport as far as invul goes has the fastest invincibility achieved, at 9 frames, compared to Palutena's 12 and Zelda's like...22 (kind of mitigated by hitbox but it's only for F7-8, RIP). I think TP stage bouncing is a universal issue (IIRC) and should be...well, yeah.

Geez I've posted a lot, but to elaborate on confusion, it's not...ACTUALLY unsafe on hit, although numerically it is, the only one who comes to close to punishing it is Sheik with Fair but if you buffer shield he PS's it IIRC. Air Confusion is generally better for the tumble state, though. The grounded one is safe mostly because it has the exact right distance that no hitbox that I know of can hit him out of it on hit before he shields.

I think the Jab hitbox IS actually that bad because it is one of his fastest grounded options that isn't Dtilt, and it happens to set up into Dtilt which is really good. Jab > Grab also ensures its connection which is why blahblahblah. Bair I'm unsure about, I think Fair as is happens to be pretty competent. Uair could stand to hit at a wider arc.

I think I've gotten all of my stuff about that video off of my chest, at this point! I'm more confident that the F3 Nair change brought up earlier, ledge action fixes, teleport things, and the obvious weight thing would do wonders alone.

 

[Ffamran]

@ FullMoon 16 frame fair? That's pretty ridiculous. Why is that move so slow? *sigh* greninja is worse than I thought.

Meanwhile, (Dr.) Mario, Yoshi, and Peach with their frame 16 Fair, Captain Falcon, Link, Toon Link, Shulk, Bowser Jr., and Ganondorf with their frame 14 Fair, DK with his frame 18 Fair, and Triple D with his frame 13 Fair. What's your point exactly? You have Yoshi, Shulk, and Peach approaching with slow as **** moves and succeeding. You have Toon Link, DK, Bowser Jr., and Triple D comboing with slow as **** moves.

 

[Wintropy]

For the record, Sheik is fairly easily ZSS's hardest MU, like 65 35 levels of bad. If the top sheik's were even in the ball park of optimized in punish game in the same levels as the top ZSS's, it would be slaughter level bad. Thank God Sheik just does whatever she wants so the character's potential isn't fully realized.

Followed by Fox, Pikachu, Diddy, Mii Brawller, Olimar, and Kirby are pretty bad MU's (I play all customs legal though, so this is probably why it's a huge departure from others). Somewhere between 65-35 and 55-45. Probably in this order.

Slightly bad MUs include Captain Falcon, Mario, Ness, GW, Yoshi, MK, Jiggs (believe it or not), Sonic, Rosaluma. Between 55-45 and 50's. Especially with customs, Mario, Sonic and Rosaluma MUs change drastically.

Everything else is pretty close to even or slight her favor.

I am pretty confident that she beats ROB pretty soundly.

I could be incorrect here, but I think the Pits regard ZSS as our worst matchup.

Doesn't really mean much when you consider the fact that an "extreme" matchup for Pit is circa 60:40, but I just thought it'd be relevant to your data.

 

[Remzi]

For the record, Sheik is fairly easily ZSS's hardest MU, like 65 35 levels of bad. If the top sheik's were even in the ball park of optimized in punish game in the same levels as the top ZSS's, it would be slaughter level bad. Thank God Sheik just does whatever she wants so the character's potential isn't fully realized.

Followed by Fox, Pikachu, Diddy, Mii Brawller, Olimar, and Kirby are pretty bad MU's (I play all customs legal though, so this is probably why it's a huge departure from others). Somewhere between 65-35 and 55-45. Probably in this order.

Slightly bad MUs include Captain Falcon, Mario, Ness, GW, Yoshi, MK, Jiggs (believe it or not), Sonic, Rosaluma. Between 55-45 and 50's. Especially with customs, Mario, Sonic and Rosaluma MUs change drastically.

Everything else is pretty close to even or slight her favor.

I am pretty confident that she beats ROB pretty soundly.

Please keep in mind that these are Lux's thoughts and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the ZSS community at large.

 

[DeLux]

Please keep in mind that these are Lux's thoughts and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the ZSS community at large.

To be fair most of the ZSS community at large loses to characters with shields and frolls, so my list is a pretty solid compromise imo

 

[Marcbri]

I could be incorrect here, but I think the Pits regard ZSS as our worst matchup.

Doesn't really mean much when you consider the fact that an "extreme" matchup for Pit is circa 60:40, but I just thought it'd be relevant to your data.

I do think that ZSS has a +2 adv. over Pit but she's imo the easiest out of the counters Pit has, the others being Sheik, Luigi, Rosalina and Pikachu. It could maybe just be +1 but I haven't played enough against good ZSS to be sure. Anyways I agree that Pit's bad match-ups are at worst 40-60 and he should be able to win against any character.

 

[LancerStaff]

I could be incorrect here, but I think the Pits regard ZSS as our worst matchup.

Doesn't really mean much when you consider the fact that an "extreme" matchup for Pit is circa 60:40, but I just thought it'd be relevant to your data.

I'll agree with that, but I'm thinking the arrow buff helps quite a bit in the matchup.

Just haven't had real time to sit down and play lately...

I do think that ZSS has a +2 adv. over Pit but she's imo the easiest out of the counters Pit has, the others being Sheik, Luigi, Rosalina and Pikachu. It could maybe just be +1 but I haven't played enough against good ZSS to be sure. Anyways I agree that Pit's bad match-ups are at worst 40-60 and he should be able to win against any character.

I'm going to disagree on Luigi, and with Rosalina we have edgy. Pikachu I've heard people say is even.

 

[zang]

That moment Villager isn't considered top 15

 

[Wintropy]

Luigi I think is weird. I could respect the theory that it's in Luigi's favour, on account of the fact that he can force the approach and his n-air is a combo-breaker, but then you take into account Pit's ability to forgo shield in favour of a myriad other defensive options and his dominance in the air / off-stage and I think it's just fundamentally ubiquitous.

 

[Asdioh]

"Everything wrong with _____ in Smash 4" videos for every character would actually be interesting and possibly beneficial... as long as the videos aren't dramatic and overstate certain weaknesses. Stuff like Greninja/Teleport characters bouncing off stages and dying is absolutely huge, and moves with giant deadzones (DK used to have these problems before they got fixed right?) are always helpful, as well as multihit moves that people just fall out of or don't connect properly (Samus Jab, Upair, UpB, Fair, Upsmash ) or Kirby's multijab, before this patch. Also all those multijabs that are stupidly easy to DI out of, at least for floaty characters. I know as Kirby that whenever Bowser Jr, Kirby, or certain other characters get me in a multijab, no matter how good their spacing was initially, I can DI out of it and punish. It's pretty dumb!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Then the question becomes why is Greninja approaching in the first place.

Also F-Air as Greninja's best move wtf.

Best spacing move combo starter and kill move and is also his safest aerial. Which of his moves is that versatile?

Meanwhile, (Dr.) Mario, Yoshi, and Peach with their frame 16 Fair, Captain Falcon, Link, Toon Link, Shulk, Bowser Jr., and Ganondorf with their frame 14 Fair, DK with his frame 18 Fair, and Triple D with his frame 13 Fair. What's your point exactly? You have Yoshi, Shulk, and Peach approaching with slow as **** moves and succeeding. You have Toon Link, DK, Bowser Jr., and Triple D comboing with slow as **** moves.

Please don't list a bunch of bad moves in attempt to prove your point. Then point to the results that no character has other than mario and bowser jr..you serious? C'mon man.

 

[Vipermoon]

"Everything wrong with _____ in Smash 4" videos for every character would actually be interesting and possibly beneficial... as long as the videos aren't dramatic and overstate certain weaknesses. Stuff like Greninja/Teleport characters bouncing off stages and dying is absolutely huge, and moves with giant deadzones (DK used to have these problems before they got fixed right?) are always helpful, as well as multihit moves that people just fall out of or don't connect properly (Samus Jab, Upair, UpB, Fair, Upsmash ) or Kirby's multijab, before this patch. Also all those multijabs that are stupidly easy to DI out of, at least for floaty characters. I know as Kirby that whenever Bowser Jr, Kirby, or certain other characters get me in a multijab, no matter how good their spacing was initially, I can DI out of it and punish. It's pretty dumb!

Good point. There should be an everything wrong with Marth hitboxes video showcasing the Jabs, Ftilt, Utilt, Fsmash, Fair, Uair, Dair, and Dolphin Slash.

 

[Marcbri]

I'll agree with that, but I'm thinking the arrow buff helps quite a bit in the matchup.

Just haven't had real time to sit down and play lately...



I'm going to disagree on Luigi, and with Rosalina we have edgy. Pikachu I've heard people say is even.

Nerfs to Luigi may make it easier, but I haven't had the chance to fight Luigi since the patch. Fireball was extremely annoying and with our arrows buffed it may be possible to try and camp him out. Pika would be even if many of our punish didn't whiff because of his stupid size. Our grab will literally go above him after many of his moves. I think Esam vs Nairo at SSC shows how hard the match-up is. THere's stuff he could have done better like using dsmash to punish pika when he can't be grabbed but then again that doesn't get Pit that much of a reward. Actually he could have used the better version of the character lol.

Dark Pit is not a better character than Pit for fighting Rosalina (or any other character). Why would you sideb to kill Luma? You get extremely vulnerable, we can just dash attack it and avoid a punish with a cross up and dsmash is also decently safe. Arrows and ftilt are 2 important assets for edgeguarding and rage sideb can actually make a difference for Pit when punishing landings. Anyways I lately play Fox against Rosalina lol, it was doable with Pit but I feel a lot more comfortable using Fox.

 

[FullMoon]

Best spacing move combo starter and kill move and is also his safest aerial. Which of his moves is that versatile?

Water Shuriken.

Comes with benefit of being a projectile too

 

[TTTTTsd]

"Everything wrong with _____ in Smash 4" videos for every character would actually be interesting and possibly beneficial... as long as the videos aren't dramatic and overstate certain weaknesses. Stuff like Greninja/Teleport characters bouncing off stages and dying is absolutely huge, and moves with giant deadzones (DK used to have these problems before they got fixed right?) are always helpful, as well as multihit moves that people just fall out of or don't connect properly (Samus Jab, Upair, UpB, Fair, Upsmash ) or Kirby's multijab, before this patch. Also all those multijabs that are stupidly easy to DI out of, at least for floaty characters. I know as Kirby that whenever Bowser Jr, Kirby, or certain other characters get me in a multijab, no matter how good their spacing was initially, I can DI out of it and punish. It's pretty dumb!

I can certainly agree with this! I just feel like yeah, it dwelled on some important things but spent too much time on other, not important things.

Basically what you said, haha. But I can accept that I guess. I'd like one for someone like Zelda but I feel like that would be a not short video.

 

[Nu~]

"Everything wrong with _____ in Smash 4" videos for every character would actually be interesting and possibly beneficial... as long as the videos aren't dramatic and overstate certain weaknesses. Stuff like Greninja/Teleport characters bouncing off stages and dying is absolutely huge, and moves with giant deadzones (DK used to have these problems before they got fixed right?) are always helpful, as well as multihit moves that people just fall out of or don't connect properly (Samus Jab, Upair, UpB, Fair, Upsmash ) or Kirby's multijab, before this patch. Also all those multijabs that are stupidly easy to DI out of, at least for floaty characters. I know as Kirby that whenever Bowser Jr, Kirby, or certain other characters get me in a multijab, no matter how good their spacing was initially, I can DI out of it and punish. It's pretty dumb!

5 minute long video about Pac Man's grab

 

[adom4]

5 minute long video about Pac Man's grab

Can we get a section in the video too?

 

[Nu~]

Can we get a section in the video too?

Yep. Hell, add samus in there too and we can have an hour long marathon lol

 

[Lavani]

5 minute long video about Pac Man's grab

Because it takes that long to animate?

 

[bc1910]

Greninja's best move is Water Shuriken. Shurikens are the cornerstone of his moveset. He lives and dies by their strength.

It's no coincidence that, straight after shurikens were buffed, people started touting Greninja as a threat again.

 

[TriTails]

Shield beats pellets? That's rich.

Remember, the tool Mega Man's entire kit is based around loses to shield. Everyone should be beating this character.

uses haze.

It doesn't straight up beat pellets. Shield forces Megaman to re-space due to his end lag. And then when you're cornered, you gotta do something else or you'll be getting punished.

Add in occasional tomahawks and I don't think it's impossible for Luigi to get in. Even if you're adaptating to whatever we're throwing at you, we can too.

But you're the Mega player around here so maybe you can correct me? I've been believeing in this for quite some time now.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you block pellets, I mean...why wouldnt he just back up and go back to...pelleting?

IS THAT EVEN A THING?!!?!?

 

[Kofu]

The big issue with Mewtwo is that he should be a glass cannon but, instead, he's just......broken glass.

Actually I feel the "cannon" part of his design is pretty well done. When you're usually dealing ~10% per aerial and combing into them and from them you rack up damage very quickly. One of said aerials is also a good KO move (and BAir kills offstage). You also have an absurdly powerful, multi-hitting USmash to snag people from the air and two kill throws, along with a killing projectile. It's more that the "glass" is too frail and the cannon often misfires, so to speak. His DSmash could probably stand to be a bit stronger, too.

In reference to the "everything wrong with Mewtwo" video, the back hit of UAir hits most (all?) grounded targets if you fast fall it. The hitboxes for FAir, BAir, UAir, jab, and grab are all strange however. I don't really care about UTilt not hitting behind him since he's clearly lost most of his momentum by that point.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

> except vs.

I'm sorry but this is completely false.

 

[LancerStaff]

Nerfs to Luigi may make it easier, but I haven't had the chance to fight Luigi since the patch. Fireball was extremely annoying and with our arrows buffed it may be possible to try and camp him out. Pika would be even if many of our punish didn't whiff because of his stupid size. Our grab will literally go above him after many of his moves. I think Esam vs Nairo at SSC shows how hard the match-up is. THere's stuff he could have done better like using dsmash to punish pika when he can't be grabbed but then again that doesn't get Pit that much of a reward. Actually he could have used the better version of the character lol.

Dark Pit is not a better character than Pit for fighting Rosalina (or any other character). Why would you sideb to kill Luma? You get extremely vulnerable, we can just dash attack it and avoid a punish with a cross up and dsmash is also decently safe. Arrows and ftilt are 2 important assets for edgeguarding and rage sideb can actually make a difference for Pit when punishing landings. Anyways I lately play Fox against Rosalina lol, it was doable with Pit but I feel a lot more comfortable using Fox.

Wasn't Nairo just off that entire tournament? I've heard Pikachu players in general say that he struggles against disjoints, and Pit shouldn't be an exception.

I'm inclined to agree with Nairo on the Rosalina matchup. Thing is that she needs Luma for KOs, and completely denying her use of Luma is a powerful thing. There's ways to store the lag of the Electroshock Arm used in the air for later, and getting hit removes the lag entirely after being stored.

If anything, Dark Pit's Ftilt is better because it Jab locks. I don't really care for either's Ftilt... They're too slow for being a real footsies move outside of a pivot, and punish wise there's better moves. Electroshock is definitely the better of the two because of it's offstage applications, but grounded they're equal when you consider stages come in different shapes and sizes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

> except vs.
> except vs.
> except vs.

Funny how that all worked out.

Something something damage per hit > mobility and pills > fireballs.

Paging @ A2ZOMG

idk they both sucked against Luigi, but the fireball nerf is a pretty big deal since it's more punishable by reflectors and easier to space around. They both have the frame data to interrupt Luigi's grab pretty easily, and can get away with spaced F-smashes on his shield with relative impunity meaning in general they can try to play lame against him, especially since Luigi doesn't exactly have great landing options once he's put above them.

I really just want to play against Luigi this patch and see how things play out. Anyhow as I'll say again and again, I believe the fireball nerf is easily one of the biggest nerfs that happened this patch.

For the record I think both of them beat Luigi in customs because Fast Fireball/Pill outspam Luigi's fireball, and Gust Cape/Sheet are really annoying for Luigi to approach past. They have to be willing to play really boring to beat him though.

 

[FullMoon]

You know, I just realized that Sheik being broken in this game is funny because she's also pretty broken in Hyrule Warriors.

Sheik, forever broken (except in Brawl)

 

[|RK|]

You know, I just realized that Sheik being broken in this game is funny because she's also pretty broken in Hyrule Warriors.

Sheik, forever broken (except in Brawl)

I guess they really don't know how to make fast, combo heavy characters lol. Maybe they'll remove her kill setups... make her like Duck Hunt

kappa

 

[Teshie U]

You know, I just realized that Sheik being broken in this game is funny because she's also pretty broken in Hyrule Warriors.

Sheik, forever broken (except in Brawl)

I'm so glad you pointed this out. She is easily the cheesiest most ridiculous character in that game. Its like cheating.

As you can tell by my avatar, I really wish HW ganon was in smash 4...


Also megaman doesn't lose to shield. If he is in range to pellet you, you are close enough to get dash or pivot grabbed faster than you can react. He also can just keep shooting your shield and get pokes. Sitting back and shielding vs metal blade, leaf shield, crash bomb and spaced bairs really doesn't last long.

 

[Archimedes]

Id like to think are not at the bottom but hey its hard for me to think of people they clearly beat.

 

[meleebrawler]

Actually I feel the "cannon" part of his design is pretty well done. When you're usually dealing ~10% per aerial and combing into them and from them you rack up damage very quickly. One of said aerials is also a good KO move (and BAir kills offstage). You also have an absurdly powerful, multi-hitting USmash to snag people from the air and two kill throws, along with a killing projectile. It's more that the "glass" is too frail and the cannon often misfires, so to speak. His DSmash could probably stand to be a bit stronger, too.

In reference to the "everything wrong with Mewtwo" video, the back hit of UAir hits most (all?) grounded targets if you fast fall it. The hitboxes for FAir, BAir, UAir, jab, and grab are all strange however. I don't really care about UTilt not hitting behind him since he's clearly lost most of his momentum by that point.

Well his dsmash already got buffed and is pretty close to usmash in power now.

I don't see the problem with shadow claw, it's not like it always misses if Mewtwo is too close. It still hits a small area of course but it's a damn sight better than Melee since now he can actually TRY to space it. The only quirk is that you can see the trail with no attack if done too close to the ground with just the right timing.

If bair had startup matching the animation he could wall stupidly easy. As it is he's already able to chain them together in a wall-of pain like sequence at the right percents.

Just make uair faster and/or stronger as well as a wider utilt and he'll be pretty complete. Giving his grab and jab the WFT treatment would be luxuries though.

 

[Greward]

If you block pellets, I mean...why wouldnt he just back up and go back to...pelleting?

IS THAT EVEN A THING?!!?!?

Pellets have a lot of ending lag which might make them have a frame disadvantage on shield depending on the distance, but they are good to poke shields anyways. Pellets lose hard to aerial approach over anything else.

 

[LancerStaff]

You know, I just realized that Sheik being broken in this game is funny because she's also pretty broken in Hyrule Warriors.

Sheik, forever broken (except in Brawl)

She's merely average in HW and a major pain to actually play since she lacks good ways to deal with anything better then mooks. Her water barrier isn't even that consistent for anything post MQ map since single hits can pierce through it by then and deal damage, especially multihit attacks.

I'm so glad you pointed this out. She is easily the cheesiest most ridiculous character in that game. Its like cheating.

As you can tell by my avatar, I really wish HW ganon was in smash 4...


Also megaman doesn't lose to shield. If he is in range to pellet you, you are close enough to get dash or pivot grabbed faster than you can react. He also can just keep shooting your shield and get pokes. Sitting back and shielding vs metal blade, leaf shield, crash bomb and spaced bairs really doesn't last long.

Uh, he was pretty terrible until they doubled the speed of his dark gauge and gave his dark attack invincibility last update.

 

[Ffamran]

Please don't list a bunch of bad moves in attempt to prove your point. Then point to the results that no character has other than mario and bowser jr..you serious? C'mon man.

So, an ultimate air dodge punish from Captain Falcon is a bad move? Not only is it a good air dodge punish, but you can set it up from a Uair, a common and very good move Captain Falcon has. It may be situational, but it's a good move. In the same scenario, apparently Toon Link can setup his Fair out of Bombs which I think Peach can do with her Fair with Turnips. DK? He can setup his Fair out of cargo U-throw which alone is a good move when it covers behind, above, in front, and below him which in a similar case, Triple D can easily get a Fair out of his D-throw. Greninja can sort of 50/50 people from Dtilt or D-throw with Fair. The only Fairs I don't think you can setup with are (Dr.) Mario, Yoshi, Ganondorf, Link, and Shulk's. They are slow and situational moves, but nevertheless, they are good moves in those moments.

Yoshi approaches and spaces with Fair. Yoshi in Brawl used to use Bair instead, but because at launch, Bair wasn't so great as Brawl, Yoshi players don't use it. Now it has auto-link angles, so it won't flub up hits and you can do a Bair spike to Up Smash. Can Yoshi use Nair? Yes, but it doesn't have the hitbox or the strong hit as Fair. With Yoshi's air speed and fall speed, he can drift in and out with Fair. That's what makes it work: the drifting means you don't really where Yoshi's going to be. Who else does that? Peach. Peach has 2 common options out of a low float: Dair pressuring and Fair spacing and baiting. Vegetable in hand, she can cover her approach or make you guess if she's going to throw or not. Yoshi can sort of do that with Egg Throw by pressuring you with eggs. At the same time, it's the ability to weave in and out that makes Peach's a good move. Oh, and it's her common kill move too at frame 16.

Results? So, the common complaint of Yoshi being overrated, Japan doesn't understand how to deal with Yoshi, or the fact you can look at the PR thread and see many Yoshi players? Yoshi might not be top 3'ing tournaments, but being in the top 10 is pretty damn good for an overrated character with Captain Falcon syndrome of doing well, but not doing well enough to beat top tiers. Toon Link is not played as much, but Zan and Artemis - she? was at EVO, right, but lost to something that I don't remember - do pretty well. Then you have Ganondorf with results from Ray Kalm in Canada and I'm not sure, but Gungnir in Japan. For a character that pretty much shouldn't be winning is doing well is fine. What about Peach, Link, DK, or Shulk? For Peach, she's a good character who with the few players she has from lloD, Pink Fresh, SlayerZ, and even freaking False, she does fine. Link pretty much doesn't have much nor do Shulk and DK only has like DKWill as the most notable player. Hell, Mario only has Ally and Bowser Jr. only has Tweek making dents while the rest are doing so-so like many Yoshi, Ganondorf, Shulk, Link, Toon Link, etc. players.

How about Sonic's frame 13 Bair? Slow isn't it? Low-level play would be able to easily setup it after a Spin Dash jump. That's why it works and even alone, it works because of Sonic's good ground and air speed. Same with Fox's frame 9 Bair which Fox players will use to pressure shields and approach. Why? Good auto-cancel, good shield push, and if hit with it, good damage. After that, Fox doesn't have anything as safe for aerial approaches. In a way, Fox is doing the same thing, but with a frame 9 Bair instead of a frame 16 Fair. A character that is well-known for his fast hits and fast ground speed relies on a slow aerial for aerial approaches. A frame slower and we've got Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, and the Pits' frame 10 Bairs. Ganondorf might not have as much of results, but Captain Falcon and the Pits definitely do. These frame 10 kill moves that early on people suggested Captain Falcon use as an approach? The frame 10 Bair that people are complaining because it was powerful and others are complaining that it was nerfed by 1%?

Oh, and for the record, you don't space with Greninja's Fair. You're better off using his Bair instead which Link also does.

Edit: Forgot about this: my original post was asking what your point was. Why did you just pick Fair and after finding out it's frame 16, just sigh, and say Greninja's in a worst spot than possible?