Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Trifroze]

@ Trifroze So vs CF basically?

Gotcha.

For those 3 seconds you can keep them out, yes, helping to push the MU from 45:55 to 46:54 :^]

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Just to try and move us on to something that we don't discuss a lot, is anyone here knowledgeable on koopa kid? What are his best and worst matchups?

 

[Ffamran]

What are Kirby's reliable early KO moves? This knowledge might help me a lot, because I often have people living to 150+ before I take them out with a Bthrow or platform Upthrow, because I'm too afraid to throw out other KO moves because they're unsafe.

I might have had some early Falco death syndrome... Still, even if Kirby can't kill early, for his weight, he's pretty strong and a fast hitter. Kirby should be able to gimp well if he gets the chance.

Wait there was Kirby in the list? Well... Erm... They all like smash things?

For Ganondorf, outside of jab, Dark Dive, Flame Choke on the ground, and some of his throws, everything kills. Probably the same with Bowser, Charizard, Triple D, and DK. Captain Falcon as we've seen kills pretty well, but getting the kill can be difficult for him at times since his Smashes are slow and his quicker moves either are going to be staled at that point or people just know he's going for those kills. Dr. Mario is Mario, but with stronger hits, so with that speed and power, he kills well outside of moves like Nair, Uair, Dair, jab, Utilt, Ftilt, Dtilt, etc. Little Mac kills with pretty much anything on the ground outside of jab, Utilt?, and Dtilt which are more for setups that leads to kills. Shulk's kill power is similar to Ike's, so there's that. Link can kill with everything, but Nair and Bair which aren't really kill moves more so combo extenders and get off me options, but he's slow-moving and he lacks Toon Link's setup options. It makes sense since all of these characters are heavyweights or glass cannons.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's very punishable for characters with fast, lingering pokes or high mobility, but there are a lot of characters that can do basically nothing to it because of their lack of both. Sonic can simply react to offensive motions and get away with it every time.



Disagree. I think that there are matchups where landing tippers becomes very unlikely without a good deal of luck, mostly because of superior mobility from opponents, and those are matchups where Lucina is likely better. Some of the hitconfirms you're suggesting, like N-Air to F-Smash, are thrown off by N-Air1 having -four- different angles it sends people, as well as SDI, so they aren't reliable.

Marth is likely better in the majority of matchups, but I think that the most viable characters are ones that Marth would struggle to land tippers on, so it's kind of hard to pinpoint right now.

Using Marcina in the right individual matchups is optimal, IMO.

As an aside, have we tested how much the extra damage affects safety between Lucina and Marth's moves? Are the SDI multipliers really that much more significant there?

Marth on tipper vs Lucina is about 4-5 frames less safe, vs sourspot which is about a frame (or none) safer.

Also shield pushback has always been based on the kb a move would have done iirc so I don't think Marth has significantly more shield kb than Lucina. @Emblem Lord

 

[LightLV]

The amount of hitstun the attack deals is meaningless if you don't know the earliest you can act after hit, especially on this game and also especially if its 1 or 2 frames.

In the case of on block, my gut wants to say a frame disadvantage difference of a single frame or two might as well be completely irrelevant in this game. Especially with its defense mechanics the way they are. Unless you're using a few select moves exclusive to a few select characters, no amount of blockpush or blockstun is going to render you safe on block off those values alone.

They're all horrifically unsafe off Perfect Shield anyway, so moot point. We're still talking about tipper here, so it's not like it's an especially reliable advantage anyway. Again, lets not conflate optimal with normal occurrence.

 

[Djent]

> except vs.
> except vs.
> except vs.

Funny how that all worked out.

 

[Vipermoon]

@Kurogane Hammer Shield pushback is not based on knockback. It's based entirely on damage. Proof: Shulk's Buster and Smash Monado.

I'd also like to mention something weird.

Marth's DB4 forward and up variants have 1.0-hitlag. No modifier. But Lucina's have 1.5-hitlag modifiers. I don't know why. You shouldn't be hitting shields with DB4 forward and up but it's worth mentioning.

Also for I definitely wouldn't say Lucina is better for this. Marth has too many advantages. This would be a case where = vs. @ Djent

 

[Locke 06]

Also shield pushback has always been based on the kb a move would have done iirc so I don't think Marth has significantly more shield kb than Lucina. @Emblem Lord

Nah. Otherwise smash Shulk would be safer than it is and buster would be riskier. 90% sure it's damage.

Ninja'd

 

[⑨ball]

> except vs.

Sounds interesting. Anyone care to elaborate?

 

[Routa]

> except vs.
> except vs.
> except vs.

Funny how that all worked out.

If I'm correct Doc is better against Rosa&Luma than Mario when customs are allowed.

 

[Vipermoon]

If I'm correct Doc is better against Rosa&Luma than Mario when customs are allowed.

Don't know about customs (I doubt it makes a huge difference). But I've watched Rayquaza (#3 Michigan PR, Rosalina) and Ally (#1 Michigan PR, Mario) face-off in-person too many times to know that Ally wouldn't be having such an easy (ish) time if he was a Doc main all along.

 

[PUK]

> except vs.
> except vs.
> except vs.

Funny how that all worked out.

> except maybe against

 

[Kaladin]

Just to try and move us on to something that we don't discuss a lot, is anyone here knowledgeable on koopa kid? What are his best and worst matchups?

I'm not sure, but it seems like he had a ton of potential. Top tier recovery, he (functionally) has a sword but good frame data with that sword, great zone game, a spin dash that kills and kill setups and does more damaging combos, and godlike spacing tools. On top of all that he has good mobility and, when hit from the bottom, is as heavy as DDD. What really holds him back?

 

[PUK]

He has a lot of trouble if the opponent shield wisely. His grab is bad, with little reward, his projectile game can't be called like that (there is a lot for MechaKoopa, but as a pressure tool it's not good) and a lot of his things are unsafe.
And without using (and commiting) the kart he's slow.

 

[wedl!!]

not to start debating about entirely different games, but marcina vaguely reminds me of spencer/spider-man in marvel 3

except in that game spencer is essentially better in every way and theres no point in playing spider-man over him if you care about winning at a high level, at least lucina can sort of mimic what marth does

we have one of these now for m2. so when is he going to get fixed?

 

[Zionaze]

Is there like a traction ranking list?
Ik luigi has insane traction but who else?
And how does traction affect sheildpush?

 

[Smog Frog]

the only characters with notably poor traction are and . nothing else is worth remembering, imo

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

not to start debating about entirely different games, but marcina vaguely reminds me of spencer/spider-man in marvel 3

except in that game spencer is essentially better in every way and theres no point in playing spider-man over him if you care about winning at a high level, at least lucina can sort of mimic what marth does

we have one of these now for m2. so when is he going to get fixed?

Except for the fact spiderman is better than Spencer in almost all aspects of the game....nice video

@ FullMoon 16 frame fair? That's pretty ridiculous. Why is that move so slow? *sigh* greninja is worse than I thought.

 

[TTTTTsd]

That Mewtwo video only addresses one actual problem that's relevant. His weight.

Everything else is just incredibly situational, unlikely **** that will never happen if your opponent is actually playing Smash 4.

His teleport is already fine as far as invul goes, ZSS jab would even beat Mario's Up+B so I fail to see the point.

Video is terribleeeee but I guess the Up+B weirdness on the ledgesnap and the weight are valid. That's all I'm giving it.

 

[LancerStaff]

> except vs.
> except vs.
> except vs.

Funny how that all worked out.

Dark Pit has a few matchups over Pit... Ryu might be one, but it's hard to tell when he's still so new. DK, Bowser, Ike, and other heavies with obvious recoveries get destroyed by Dark Pit.

And when customs are on, they're basically even. Biggest reason Pit doesn't fall when customs are on isn't because his are that good, they're actually pretty meh. But since Dark Pit gets good arrows and the Electroshock Arm with customs, he nearly evens out with Pit and then between them their matchups improve. Custom Dark Pit vs Ryu would be interesting to say the least.

 

[Yonder]

not to start debating about entirely different games, but marcina vaguely reminds me of spencer/spider-man in marvel 3

except in that game spencer is essentially better in every way and theres no point in playing spider-man over him if you care about winning at a high level, at least lucina can sort of mimic what marth does

we have one of these now for m2. so when is he going to get fixed?

Evidence that Sakurai didn't want M2 to return

Seriously this makes me sad as someone desperately trying to use M2 [I use him to cover Villager, Toon Link, Mac so far for Luigi] 1st patch was fine to miss the buff train since of time and all, but he better get the Ike treatment next patch. I'm not too bothered by weight, just fix his hitboxes, no wavebounce glitch on teleport[rumor has it this was intentional as in a in game tip...wth?]and make his back throw kill around Ness'. I want Ganondorf like power especially in his throws in exchange for light weight. His speed is only average. I believe it's fair.

 

[Wintropy]

I've always felt Mewtwo's main issue isn't his floaty stature, it's that in tandem with his height. It's like if Ganondorf was as heavy as Pikachu: he's an easy target who dies way earlier than most other characters his size.

Feel free to tell me I'm objectively incorrect, of course. I am here to learn, y'know?

 

[TTTTTsd]

I've always felt Mewtwo's main issue isn't his floaty stature, it's that in tandem with his height. It's like if Ganondorf was as heavy as Pikachu: he's an easy target who dies way earlier than most other characters his size.

Feel free to tell me I'm objectively incorrect, of course. I am here to learn, y'know?

That's largely his problem. He's tall AND light. The hitboxes in the video are far from real problems outside of MAYBE Bair but I'm not stretching it that far.

Weight would fix so much of his issues because I think all of them revolve around "How do I live"

 

[wedl!!]

yea, actually. his weird hitboxes aren't going to pop up too much in regular gameplay (excluding his grab hitbox, like wtf), but you'll still encounter them nontheless.

 

[RayNoire]

That Mewtwo video only addresses one actual problem that's relevant. His weight.

Everything else is just incredibly situational, unlikely **** that will never happen if your opponent is actually playing Smash 4.

His teleport is already fine as far as invul goes, ZSS jab would even beat Mario's Up+B so I fail to see the point.

Video is terribleeeee but I guess the Up+B weirdness on the ledgesnap and the weight are valid. That's all I'm giving it.

Excuse me, do you play this character?

Because that is his actual grab range, and that is his most important move passing right through a non-moving target. That's not situational, unlikely ****. That's **** that comes up every single match.

 

[Kaladin]

That Mewtwo video only addresses one actual problem that's relevant. His weight.

Everything else is just incredibly situational, unlikely **** that will never happen if your opponent is actually playing Smash 4.

His teleport is already fine as far as invul goes, ZSS jab would even beat Mario's Up+B so I fail to see the point.

Video is terribleeeee but I guess the Up+B weirdness on the ledgesnap and the weight are valid. That's all I'm giving it.

I don't own Mew2. I've played him for about five matches on a friend's wii U. Guess how many matches those came up in? Five.

 

[David Viran]

Regardless, if used as close to the ground as possible without frame canceling, Lucina's uair on shield can be punished by a 4 frame move such as Wario's dash attack while Marth's tippered uair can be punished by a 3 frame move (no dash attacks this quick exist) and a non-tippered one only by a 1 frame move, so in other words ZSS' or Mac's jab. Any other move on shield from the two will be punished unless the opponent fails their execution, so in the future when you say Marth is safer on shield than Lucina please keep in mind that you are talking about a difference of a frame or two in a single aerial.

All of this if the opponent was holding shield long enough to burn through their shield lock frames. I actually see this happen a lot and I don't know how many people know about shield lock frames continuing after shield stun.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Excuse me, do you play this character?

Because that is his actual grab range, and that is his most important move passing right through a non-moving target. That's not situational, unlikely ****. That's **** that comes up every single match.

It's passing through a sliding Mario, he's not idled. I'm willing to wager if Mario (or G&W) crouched it would have roughly the same effect. And even if I did decide to, perhaps say maybe to that, can we talk about the likelihood of a Mario simply....doing that? Perhaps it's unpopular opinion but I'm putting all of my eggs in this basket when I say that while partial points of the video are valid, some of them just don't seem like, plausible to me as far as the likelihood of actually occurring (like pushing back Mewtwo during Fsmash or what have you). I'd rather not debate my opinion about it, I'm probably not going to yield to anything but grab, Up+B ledgesnap shenanigans (which is a general teleport issue if I recall, it just happens more often to Mewtwo than anyone else which is unfortunate), and terrible weight/floatiness.

Also if someone's in skid frames or incurring anything laggy that has them slouched next to you, I imagine you could jab > grab, yes? (Unless G&W crouch but his crouch is always the exception)

 

[FullMoon]

@ FullMoon 16 frame fair? That's pretty ridiculous. Why is that move so slow? *sigh* greninja is worse than I thought.

Eh, it doesn't matter. The move combos into and from stuff, kills, has good range and is a good spacing tool because of it. The landing lag is not bad either

Sure I would love if it was faster but the move is very good already as it is.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

yea, actually. his weird hitboxes aren't going to pop up too much in regular gameplay (excluding his grab hitbox, like wtf), but you'll still encounter them nontheless.

The fair hit box is a pretty big deal. It's harder for him to hit smaller characters and it hurts his shad game.

 

[Djent]

Sounds interesting. Anyone care to elaborate?

Something something damage per hit > mobility and pills > fireballs.

Paging @A2ZOMG

 

[Asdioh]

That Mewtwo video only addresses one actual problem that's relevant. His weight.

Everything else is just incredibly situational, unlikely **** that will never happen if your opponent is actually playing Smash 4.

His teleport is already fine as far as invul goes, ZSS jab would even beat Mario's Up+B so I fail to see the point.

Video is terribleeeee but I guess the Up+B weirdness on the ledgesnap and the weight are valid. That's all I'm giving it.

I don't fully agree. Some things in the video are exaggerated (like in the Samus one when he kept landing Nair and showing the hitbox trail going through characters... the actual hitbox hadn't come out yet, and the UpB things vs Jabs is dumb) but he actually does have those problems. Yoshi jumping out of Fthrow? Lol
Hitboxes just need to better match their animations. Most of the characters in this game have incredibly precise hitboxes (should we be calling them hitbubbles?) but some still look strange.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The fair hit box is a pretty big deal. It's harder for him to hit smaller characters and it hurts his shad game.

IDK, I feel like SHAD Nair would be pretty alright due to Nair's much reduced landing lag and its set knockback. Granted SHAD Fair working would be nice but SHAD NAir sets up into a grab on most chars (would it bounce a short char high enough? Might go ahead and test, actually.)

I don't fully agree. Some things in the video are exaggerated (like in the Samus one when he kept landing Nair and showing the hitbox trail going through characters... the actual hitbox hadn't come out yet, and the UpB things vs Jabs is dumb) but he actually does have those problems. Yoshi jumping out of Fthrow? Lol
Hitboxes just need to better match their animations. Most of the characters in this game have incredibly precise hitboxes (should we be calling them hitbubbles?) but some still look strange.

Hitbox trails tend not to fully match in this game in very specific instances (Marth sword trails, for instance, Diddy Uair now to some extent = ( ), so I'm not sure. Stuff like Utilt not hitting behind is kind of strange but I don't really see it as largely detrimental. The only things that stand out are the obvious elephants of his grab, the Up+B windbox or whatever shenangians, and of course his weight. The other stuff just looks like peculiar hitboxes which plague a lot of decent chars in this game sadly.

Doesn't Yoshi have DJ armor/Knockback resistance? That's probably why he was used as a sample in this video, honestly. Perhaps if he could show someone like, airdodging out, or someone without KBR?

 

[RedBeefBaron]

They're not going to change Mewtwo's weight, they seem to want him to be a lightweight glass cannon character.

Except he's not a glass cannon, he's more like a glass...butterfly knife.

Sure, if you put A LOT of time and dedication into a butterfly knife you'll be able to do some good damage to someone who's not prepared for it and you'll look really cool while doing it, but compared to someone who is prepared and has like, a baseball bat, () they're gonna beat you and they don't need to put in nearly as much practice to do it.

So they should fix all the offense issues in that video, improve his offense in general and keep his weight the same so he'll be a functioning glass cannon.

 

[Smog Frog]

that video failed to address that rising nair doesnt work on shorter characters(it notably doesnt hit ), that his rolls+ledge getup are straight ass(those situations where he's dying at 40% on the ledge are actually very possible in a real game), and that nair doesnt actually come out until frame 7 when the animation is like frame 3.

 

[RayNoire]

It's passing through a sliding Mario, he's not idled. I'm willing to wager if Mario (or G&W) crouched it would have roughly the same effect. And even if I did decide to, perhaps say maybe to that, can we talk about the likelihood of a Mario simply....doing that? Perhaps it's unpopular opinion but I'm putting all of my eggs in this basket when I say that while partial points of the video are valid, some of them just don't seem like, plausible to me as far as the likelihood of actually occurring (like pushing back Mewtwo during Fsmash or what have you). I'd rather not debate my opinion about it, I'm probably not going to yield to anything but grab, Up+B ledgesnap shenanigans (which is a general teleport issue if I recall, it just happens more often to Mewtwo than anyone else which is unfortunate), and terrible weight/floatiness.

Also if someone's in skid frames or incurring anything laggy that has them slouched next to you, I imagine you could jab > grab, yes? (Unless G&W crouch but his crouch is always the exception)

Jab actually has hitbox issues too. It won't hit hardly anyone crouching in an animation (I posted a Vine of it whiffing Samus before) and it has the same issue Fsmash does where some characters can just walk into him and it will whiff. Also lots of characters can escape jab in various ways (like F3 Nairs).

The Fsmash is not common (mostly because Mewtwo shouldn't be Fsmashing grounded opponents to begin with) but it exists and it happens.

Bair is a big problem because SH Bair is an important tool for Mewtwo and is one of his only (relatively) safe options against SH approach.

Utilt is huge because Mewtwo has no move that hits behind him.

Uair's hitbox is even more screwed up in the front, which combined with what is shown in the video limits it severely (it's one of the worst Uairs because of this).

As for grab...we have Ganondorf's grab range. Possibly worse. That's not an exaggeration. Mewtwo's dash grab doesn't even reach the length of his hand, let alone that pointless purple spark.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

> except vs.
> except vs.
> except vs.

Funny how that all worked out.

> except maybe against

> except vs.

 

[TTTTTsd]

They're not going to change Mewtwo's weight, they seem to want him to be a lightweight glass cannon character.

Except he's not a glass cannon, he's more like a glass...butterfly knife.

Sure, if you put A LOT of time and dedication into a butterfly knife you'll be able to do some good damage to someone who's not prepared for it and you'll look really cool while doing it, but compared to someone who is prepared and has like, a baseball bat, () they're gonna beat you and they don't need to put in nearly enough practice to do it.

So they should fix all the offense issues in that video, improve his offense in general and keep his weight the same so he'll be a functioning glass cannon.

Ultimately while that would kind of help I'm...not sure to what extent it would, sadly. I think that it might improve his stuff on like, most levels of play but he's the 2nd lightest character in the game and he's really floaty. I think that'll always SEVERELY hold him back more than a lot of other things in the video, unfortunately. Dying as early as he does for the height he's at....I'm largely cynical of it because he's not just light, he's ABSURDLY light.

that video failed to address that rising nair doesnt work on shorter characters(it notably doesnt hit ), that his rolls+ledge getup are straight ***(those situations where he's dying at 40% on the ledge are actually very possible in a real game), and that nair doesnt actually come out until frame 7 when the animation is like frame 3.

This is basically my opinion. It went over a lot of meh stuff, a bit of important things, but it missed the really crucial small stuff like this.

Jab actually has hitbox issues too. It won't hit hardly anyone crouching in an animation (I posted a Vine of it whiffing Samus before) and it has the same issue Fsmash does where some characters can just walk into him and it will whiff. Also lots of characters can escape jab in various ways (like F3 Nairs).

Kinda wish the video had covered that, then! That seems more major than anything else to me and I only say this because Mewtwo's jab kind of sets up into...well, a lot of his good stuff! As far as moves that hit behind, with pivot actions in this game it's kind of a fault but I'm not sure to what degree given how smooth they are. Mostly miffed about the jab, actually. Figures, though.

 

[RayNoire]

Well, there's a lot of **** wrong with this character!

Perhaps a part 2 is in order. We don't have much manpower on the Mewtwo boards though, and I can only record in phone quality.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So, what I'm hearing is that Mewtwo needs the WFT treatment.

That about sum it up?