Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[LightLV]

These are the same devs that made tourney mode. The one with the 3 minute 2 stock matches in 1v1 bracket. The one where you can't make 1v1 brackets. So don't think that competitive Smash was the only thing on their mind when they designed Sonic.

To be fair, I can't think of a single videogame that would so pathetically fail at a "tournament mode" in this fashion other than Smash.

Smash4 tournament mode is the type of game design failure that can only come from deliberately trying to make something bad.

 

[Emblem Lord]

@KuroganeHammer

Response to your Lucina inquiry.

She is not safer then Marth. On any given button Marth is safer for one of two reasons. If its a non-tipper he has less hitlag and has less disadvantage as a result. With tippers he does heavy weight levels of block pushback. So while he has greater hitlag the shield pushback keeps him relatively safe.However, Lucina is much safer then most realize. She is imo when you actually use her poke tools, quite safe on block.

If anyone thinks either one of them loses to shield, you are wrong. They can poke at shields all day. Its not free pressure and requires precision, but they can do it.

She does not outdamage Marth. At optimal play Marth simply has more combo opportunities due to his non-tippers setting up for damage better.

She has f-smash over him in terms of not requiring precision, but she struggles when her opponent respects that. Marth has tipper f-tilt that can kill and covers a better angle then f-smash and is faster. Tipper uair kills at like 110% and he can confirm into it. Tipper bair kills. Tipper Nair REALLY kills. Lucina trades all these options for an f-smash that is very usable in footsie interactions and demands respect. Her ancestor has more versatility however.

Also...hit confirm to tipper f-smash is a thing with Marth.

So...is she an entire tier below him? Nah.

But to argue as though she has any true advantage over him is just nonsense.

She is Marth-lite. Period.

 

[LightLV]

I truthfully feel like Lucina is reaching the point where her damage is making up for a lack of tipper. Marth's range on this game isn't the best and his tipper hitbox is pretty crappy honestly. It's starting to feel like the Marth / Roy mechanic conundrum from Melee.

It's beginning to approach that point where the added benefit is losing its weight over the added precision required. She also has actual combos now, though im not sure if marth shares them as well.

It wasn't that way on release, but it's certainly starting to feel that way now.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So basically you ignored everything I just posted.

Marths advantage is not his range. But his disjoint.

 

[Snackss]

But Spin Dash it's very punishable when you know the match-up. But Sonic can change his playstyle in the middle of the match and adapt pretty easily. So that's a very good plus on him.

Saying something is punishable when you "know the matchup" is meaningless. You're fighting the player, not a robot who does nothing but side B jump up air. Almost everything is punishable, any game is a matter of how good each player is at making their moves less punishable. And spin dash is quite good for doing that.

 

[Remzi]

I did not notice; my mistake!

And yeah, that's definitely the smart way to use it.

So, what are your thoughts on the MU?

All good! I think its a slight advantage for ZSS, but the crouching can make it fairly difficult. I know @DeLux has said he thinks its ZSS's hardest matchup but he may have been joking. I never know with him, lol

 

[TheReflexWonder]

But Spin Dash it's very punishable when you know the match-up.

It's very punishable for characters with fast, lingering pokes or high mobility, but there are a lot of characters that can do basically nothing to it because of their lack of both. Sonic can simply react to offensive motions and get away with it every time.

@KuroganeHammer

Response to your Lucina inquiry.

She is not safer then Marth. On any given button Marth is safer for one of two reasons. If its a non-tipper he has less hitlag and has less disadvantage as a result. With tippers he does heavy weight levels of block pushback. So while he has greater hitlag the shield pushback keeps him relatively safe.However, Lucina is much safer then most realize. She is imo when you actually use her poke tools, quite safe on block.

If anyone thinks either one of them loses to shield, you are wrong. They can poke at shields all day. Its not free pressure and requires precision, but they can do it.

She does not outdamage Marth. At optimal play Marth simply has more combo opportunities due to his non-tippers setting up for damage better.

She has f-smash over him in terms of not requiring precision, but she struggles when her opponent respects that. Marth has tipper f-tilt that can kill and covers a better angle then f-smash and is faster. Tipper uair kills at like 110% and he can confirm into it. Tipper bair kills. Tipper Nair REALLY kills. Lucina trades all these options for an f-smash that is very usable in footsie interactions and demands respect. Her ancestor has more versatility however.

Also...hit confirm to tipper f-smash is a thing with Marth.

So...is she an entire tier below him? Nah.

But to argue as though she has any true advantage over him is just nonsense.

She is Marth-lite. Period.

Disagree. I think that there are matchups where landing tippers becomes very unlikely without a good deal of luck, mostly because of superior mobility from opponents, and those are matchups where Lucina is likely better. Some of the hitconfirms you're suggesting, like N-Air to F-Smash, are thrown off by N-Air1 having -four- different angles it sends people, as well as SDI, so they aren't reliable.

Marth is likely better in the majority of matchups, but I think that the most viable characters are ones that Marth would struggle to land tippers on, so it's kind of hard to pinpoint right now.

Using Marcina in the right individual matchups is optimal, IMO.

As an aside, have we tested how much the extra damage affects safety between Lucina and Marth's moves? Are the SDI multipliers really that much more significant there?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth's raw mobility specs are comparable to top tiers though. He is not a slow character.

And Lucina is better in those fights if f-smash is the only variable.

But its not sooooo how did you come to such a conclusion?

Do you hold that attack in such high esteem or do you truly believe it is the defining characteristic of both characters?

Also i didnt say anything about Nair to f-smash.

Which is a ****ty confirm btw and needs to die in a fire.

 

[Ffamran]

Y'know, with how people overreact and complain about Roy's Side Smash, I think he should be Side Smash the Character. Great, now Lucina has nothing to her name now.

Still, isn't Lucina's Down Smash considered more useful than Marth and Roy's?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Fall speed and air speed are average, which is not comparable to most top tiers in question and is a significant factor in overall mobility. If you're not landing tippers and the frame advantage on your pokes are not enough to get different punishes/prevent you from being punished, isn't Lucina a straight-up better character?

The big bonus that Marth has is tipper aerials, so he has an easier time KOing in the air (though I feel that Shield Breaker is a little underrated for Lucina with that, too), but, again, opponents' superior mobility and many top tiers being able to mitigate disadvantage makes it seem like it wouldn't be as much of a boost.

 

[Yonder]

Even Luigi vs Sheik can be done. The evidence of this is that we've seen Mr. ConCon actually relatively keep up with ZeRo in the past, and Mr. ConCon has taken sets from talented Sheiks like K9 and VoiD in the past. The matchup is hard (60:40ish?), but not undoable.

Sure, if you can perfect shield EVERYTHING as Luigi, like ConCon said. That's how he does it.When ConCon vs Zero happened, it was evident that Luigi vs Sheik is a bad matchup. ConCon was playing at his best. But Zero's character nullified that. Surprisingly, more the character than Zero himself, hence why he switched from Diddy. That's a good example of when you can tell a matchup is bad. NOT Esam vs Larry Lurr where Luigi lost ONE match to Samus [probably due to matchup inexperience] and people are still shouting to this day "OMG Samus counters Luigi!!" When in reality it's a fairly even matchup. Samus has a few moves she can use against Luigi [Charge shot, fair, uair, zair] otherwise she is beaten up by Luigi on any other moves. I say it's 50:50 Luigi vs Samus.

 

[Cassio]

Well it doesnt have to do with Marth's mobility, but this was a point I brought up awhile ago as pikachu. There's a risk reward aspect to a rush down vs Marth's tipper attribute where rushing in is mitigated by the fact that a wrong guess wont sting as hard near the hilt. In this sense getting hit with (insert fast character) is as much their mistake as it is Marth's precision.

Even though thats been true throughout smash, I never realized how important this was until I fought Lucina in smash 4.

She does not outdamage Marth. At optimal play Marth simply has more combo opportunities due to his non-tippers setting up for damage better.

This is relevant if its true. A non-tipper from Marth leading to more damage then the same hit from Lucina would limit her advantage to the inner knockback on kill moves, but my initial thought is to be skeptical of this. I havent taken the time to really delve into Marth's punish game yet (he's my second in every smash game) so Im not tryin to deny it either.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

In what situations does Marth get better frame advantage on hits? I know that Dancing Blade has a 0.8x SDI multiplier for Marth, but no hitlag modifier. As far as I can tell, more damage generally means more hitstun, so Lucina should be better at that for things like N-Air1 if you're not getting tippers, though a weaker hit keeps them closer, too, I guess. Not sure which is more valuable, but they're likely comparable, all things considered.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean you can go to practice mode and test this yourself. Lucina vs Marth at higher percents she cannot do Uair to Uair as a kill confirm. It's not a combo. She knocks Marth farther away due to increased BKB compared to Marths non tipper. Marth can get the kill from around 100% to 120% and its real.

This is only one example.

At lower percents Marth is also a better comboer since his tippers lead to more hitstun.

So at low percents you want tippers for combos. At higher percents you want non tippers.

He has a wider range of comboable percents where he is dangerous compared to her.

Also all his non-tippers have less disadvantage on block. Usually 1 or 2 frames. But the damage modifiers on Lucina probably closed it up by a frame. But the knockback is what makes her a slightly worse comboer then Marth. She has better Nair set-ups but Nair does not combo into f-smash. Its just a tight set-up.

And this is ignoring all the other kill options Marth has over her making him far more dangerous in any non f-smash punish/hard read scenario. Which you know....exist.

tl:dr

DEPTH!!!!!!!

I will give Lucina one match over Marth right now and thats Pikachu. But that is literally the only match I give her over Marth. She can legit make Pika afraid to QA.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'll concede the weak U-Air -> strong U-Air, but I doubt that sort of thing comes into play that often; they're likely at very specific percents and are likely made unusable by even small amounts of Rage.

How much more frame advantage does a tipper have? That's important, especially since Marth's tippers also have a 1.25 hitlag multiplier, which reduces the frame advantage he'd get from the damage, and also makes SDI more potent against them (which is most certainly something that victims aren't trying to take advantage of). These points seem to get glossed over a lot.

 

[Cassio]

Why does she need uair to uair kills when she is fsmash the character?!?

In seriousness this sort of addresses the importance of fsmash. I know fsmash is cheese and youre technically bad to get hit by it especially at kill percent. But its the best god damn cheese in the game. It tops of list of moves that kill me and make me think "why the **** did I just die to that". Its especially frustrating for a light weight like pikachu.

 

[Vipermoon]

More damage does not mean more hitstun. Only knockback will affect hitstun.

This means tipper Nair1 (not that important) and tipper Jab1 (important) are more useful than Lucina's because they set-up tippers AND do the same hitstun at a lower percent Lucina's version would.

But the biggest thing between the two is some of the tippers Marth has are SO good and EASY to get (like Ftilt, Bair) it make Lucina look really bad.

Tipper jab, again, for earlier combos.
Tipper Ftilt for sour Fsmash strength plus safety
Last patch tipper Utilt (Lucina just got a damage increase)
Dash Attack (Lucina's is unbalanced, knockback and damage values are way too low)
Sour Dtilt leading into more things at more percent ranges than Lucina
Tipper Dtilt if you can gimp with it
Tipper Dancing Blade which can be guaranteed and used for killing if you learn, practice, and use it correctly
Tipper Shield Breaker will kill extremely early even barely charged and it kills much earlier after you break the shield
Tipper Fair
Tipper Bair
Tipper Uair
Stronger Dair spike (does more damage even though Dair spike isn't a tipper)
Like EL said, Uair to tipper Uair for the kill.
Tipper Nair
All of Marth's tipper aerials are very strong and none of them are difficult with practice
Lucina's aerials are comparatively not balanced with Marth when you look at their damage and knockback values.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

More damage does not mean more hitstun. Only knockback will affect hitstun.

Damage dealt on an individual attack is part of the knockback formula.

Tipper Dancing Blade shouldn't be happening if the opponent uses the slightest amount of SDI and general awareness.

This comes back to the issue where landing tippers as Marth is just as much the result of poor spacing from the opponent as it is Marth's precision.

 

[Emblem Lord]

@ Vipermoon and @ A_Kae

They have surpassed my knowledge and could prolly tell you off hand more about his numbers since I no longer wield a blade in the name of the Empire.

But @ TheReflexWonder stop acting like you dont know how to science. Bet money you could find all this stuff out on your own in less then an hour.

 

[Blobface]

Actually, Damage does affect hitstun, but IIRC it only affects the hitstun cap. After a certain point hitstun caps, which is generally dependent on how much damage the attack does.

 

[bc1910]

4 frames is pretty huge for a grab, especially a tether. i16 is within human reaction, i12 isn't for most, especially not if you mix it up.
It's also a huge deal regarding shield grabbing. ZSS for example could nAir a shielding ZSS, but not a shielding Link, no matter the spacing.

Yeah, the whole 12 frame reaction time thing is a bit skewed anyway. Let's say it takes someone 12 frames to react to something (the average is actually more like 13 frames). You have the 12 reaction frames, then you push a button on frame 13; frame 13 is the reading frame, which is the frame the game reads the command on. Frame 0, basically. So with a perfect 12 frame reaction your character won't do anything until frame 14.

Now with spotdodges having 1 frame of startup vulnerability you're not invulnerable to ZSS' grab until frame 15. So it can be tricky to avoid despite being a 16f "reactable" move. So Link's 12f grab being reactable is pretty much a no unless you have godlike reaction time.

 

[S_B]

Saying something is punishable when you "know the matchup" is meaningless. You're fighting the player, not a robot who does nothing but side B jump up air. Almost everything is punishable, any game is a matter of how good each player is at making their moves less punishable. And spin dash is quite good for doing that.

On this same line of thinking, I would think that mixing up aggro Sanic with campy Sanic would get pretty good mileage: train your opponent to expect rushdown offense, then start making them approach instead. Then, after they've adjusted to being the aggressor, switch strategies again.

Sonic's speed is enough to get him in and out quickly enough that he should be able to choose the moment of opportunity. Just keep them guessing and you'll have the advantage.

 

[Routa]

Not everyone needs to be Ike when it comes to kill moves, eh?

 

[Vipermoon]

Damage dealt on an individual attack is part of the knockback formula.

Tipper Dancing Blade shouldn't be happening if the opponent uses the slightest amount of SDI and general awareness.

Damage dealt IS part of the knockback formula BUT ONLY KNOCKBACK is part of the hitstun formula. Knockback = hitstun. So if two attacks kill from the same part of a stage at 130% but one does 10% (because higher KB values) and the other 19% they will do the same hitstun.

Don't know anything about a hitstun cap but this isn't important for combos if it did exist.

A_Kae knows more than me about this stuff though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why does she need uair to uair kills when she is fsmash the character?!?

In seriousness this sort of addresses the importance of fsmash. I know fsmash is cheese and youre technically bad to get hit by it especially at kill percent. But its the best god damn cheese in the game. It tops of list of moves that kill me and make me think "why the **** did I just die to that". Its especially frustrating for a light weight like pikachu.

And tell me again why is Pika even in a position to get hit by that other then pikas being stupid and thinking they can actually attack a shield? I think pikas do alot of stupid **** because their char lets them then they get bodied by something and say omgwtf. Dont get me wrong i think Lucina is better in that match but only for psychological reasons. I dont think pika should ever ACTUALLY get hit by it cept off the hardest of reads.

Same **** happens when I kill pikas with Ryu. The crying commences.

Just stop being dumb. Play like Mayweather. Run the **** away.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Damage dealt IS part of the knockback formula BUT ONLY KNOCKBACK is part of the hitstun formula. Knockback = hitstun. So if two attacks kill from the same part of a stage at 130% but one does 10% (because higher KB values) and the other 19% they will do the same hitstun.

Yes, but since, say, N-Air1 from Lucina sends people further than non-tipped N-Air1 from Marth, Lucina should deal greater amounts of hitstun in that comparison.

 

[Ffamran]

Not everyone needs to be Ike when it comes to kill moves, eh?

Ganondorf, Falco, Shulk?, Bowser?, Charizard?, Captain Falcon, Triple D?, DK?, Dr. Mario, Little Mac - ignoring his aerials... -, Link, Ryu, and Kirby say hi.

 

[Vipermoon]

But you should never land with a non-tipper Nair whether you are Marth or Lucina. That is unsafe.

@ TheReflexWonder forgot you commented on Dancing Blade.

You can still guarantee tipper Dancing Blade. Here are a few ways:

Dancing blade forward 1, forward 2, forward 3, to up 4 tipper is guaranteed at non-kill percents (the first 3 hits don't have to be tippers because CQC Dancing Blade pushes you further out anyway). It is guaranteed at kill percents ONLY if they opponent DIs bad. But you can see this and switch to DB4 forward if you think up 4 won't reach.

The ledge will assist you with tipper forward 4 if you do it right. It will kill pretty early.

If you slow down dancing blade deliberately you can get the forward 4 tipper without ledge assistance. This is 500% easier since last patch with the 5 frame increase in DB input windows.

 

[LightLV]

So basically you ignored everything I just posted.

Marths advantage is not his range. But his disjoint.

Calm down. Ive been singing the same tired gospel about Lucina being worse-marth since release, shooting down the waifu-scum with a [sad] sense of satisfaction. But as of late, i'm feeling a bit different.

Lucina's "precisionless" gameplay was ******** when they were both weaker AND lucina was weaker, but now that they're both better, and Lucina has gotten stronger in many areas, the gap is not quite what it used to be. Is she better than Marth? I dunno, but I no longer play Marth and feel like his tipper is justifcation enough for me not getting a KO by landing a hit because i'm not playing Lucina. At the very least, I think they're interchangable now. Marth's tipper is undoubtedly much better than anything else Lucina has, but the comparison is still reliant on "optimal execution".

Marth's properties on his tipper hitbox are quite impressive by any character's standards, and if it were easier to take advantage of, i'm sure he'd be higher on the tier list. But this game doesn't provide Melee's combo opportunities to give that amount of tipper control, and Marth's range actually is not all that spectacular on this game. Lucina's advantage is becoming a real one IMO.

Edit:

TL;DR -- optimal play is a pitfall for theorycrafting and in games like this almost always requires an amount of execution that no human player ever exhibits. I can't name too many fighting games where that type of character places higher than your run-of-the-mill, "reliable" character...unless they also have some kind of abusable aspect that tips the scales. (of which Marth/Lucina certainly do not.)

 

[Asdioh]

Marth's raw mobility specs are comparable to top tiers though. He is not a slow character.

As a Kirby main... I know. And I still wonder why both Kirby and Marth players often say this matchup is 50:50. This matchup is hell for Kirby. It's not Melee-tier (possibly the worst matchup in Smash history that doesn't involve infinites?) but it's really not good.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Oh I dont wish to give the wrong impression.

Lucina is not a tier below Marth. She is literally one or two spots behind him imo.

@ Asdioh What crack fiend thinks Kirby vs Marth is even?

Do we need to stage an intervention?

 

[A_Kae]

Yes, but since, say, N-Air1 from Lucina sends people further than non-tipped N-Air1 from Marth, Lucina should deal greater amounts of hitstun in that comparison.

At 150%, Lucina's nair 1 does 27 frames of hitstun. Marth's untipped nair 1, at the same percent, does 26. Below that, they do the same amount of hitstun. This is against a target with a weight of 90.

Tipped nair 1 does 29 frames of hitstun at 150. It starts doing more hitstun at 25%.

Basically, the hitstun difference between Marth's untipped nair and Lucina's is non existant, while tipped nair can actually matter.

Also, DB for Marth has an 0.8x SDI multiplier. Since I saw SDI brought up in regards to it a bit earlier.

 

[Cassio]

And tell me again why is Pika even in a position to get hit by that other then pikas being stupid and thinking they can actually attack a shield? I think pikas do alot of stupid **** because their char lets them then they get bodied by something and say omgwtf. Dont get me wrong i think Lucina is better in that match but only for psychological reasons. I dont think pika should ever ACTUALLY get hit by it cept off the hardest of reads.

Same **** happens when I kill pikas with Ryu. The crying commences.

Just stop being dumb. Play like Mayweather. Run the **** away.

While all of this is true, and ppl do get annoyed when I complain about dying early, it has to do with the metagame's more common/better characters having less raw kill power that allows (and rewards if done smartly) more risks. Theoretically I think its fine since it allows even more limited characters to hold their own against pika if theyre just better in skill.

 

[Trifroze]

To be fair shield pushback isn't all that important unless the opponent has Luigi-level traction since most of the time you're going to be spacing in a way that your opponent can't shield grab or OoS jab you either way, instead having to resort to dash attack or dash grab. Hitlag and landing lag are what really matter and the former is why Ryu for example is unsafe despite decent range, low landing lag and good damage/pushback.

Regardless, if used as close to the ground as possible without frame canceling, Lucina's uair on shield can be punished by a 4 frame move such as Wario's dash attack while Marth's tippered uair can be punished by a 3 frame move (no dash attacks this quick exist) and a non-tippered one only by a 1 frame move, so in other words ZSS' or Mac's jab. Any other move on shield from the two will be punished unless the opponent fails their execution, so in the future when you say Marth is safer on shield than Lucina please keep in mind that you are talking about a difference of a frame or two in a single aerial.

Marth isn't automatically better than Lucina, in many situations you don't have control over the space between you and your opponent and in all these scenarios Lucina does more damage. Marth is better when you have the opportunity to work at your max range.

 

[Asdioh]

@ Asdioh What crack fiend thinks Kirby vs Marth is even?

Do we need to stage an intervention?

The Marth that's been doing exceptionally well at my locals lately thinks it's pretty even. Some of the Kirby players (no specifics) think it's even. I don't actually remember the last time I heard from Marth mains, but it's really not fun. If the superior ground and air mobility weren't enough, there's also the disjoint and the fact that tippers kill Kirby at obscenely low percents.

Ganondorf, Falco, Shulk?, Bowser?, Charizard?, Captain Falcon, Triple D?, DK?, Dr. Mario, Little Mac - ignoring his aerials... -, Link, Ryu, and Kirby say hi.

Wait why are they saying "Hii~"? What do they have in common with Ike?

 

[Emblem Lord]

@ Trifroze So vs CF basically?

Gotcha.

 

[Routa]

Wait why are they saying "Hii~"? What do they have in common with Ike?

They all have many early and reliable KO moves.

 

[Asdioh]

They all have many early and reliable KO moves.

What are Kirby's reliable early KO moves? This knowledge might help me a lot, because I often have people living to 150+ before I take them out with a Bthrow or platform Upthrow, because I'm too afraid to throw out other KO moves because they're unsafe.

 

[Routa]

What are Kirby's reliable early KO moves? This knowledge might help me a lot, because I often have people living to 150+ before I take them out with a Bthrow or platform Upthrow, because I'm too afraid to throw out other KO moves because they're unsafe.

Wait there was Kirby in the list? Well... Erm... They all like smash things?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Not any less than Mario with Ally [1 time only so far in a big tournament] or Villager with Ranai [charatcer would be NOTHING without him]. If I were to downgrade Greninja I'd have to take Mario, Villager and Wario with him and leave MK and Falcon up there ... which wouldn't be entirely unreasonable, I admit. Greninja should not be singled out in that category though imo.



Can't really argue with Shaya's reasoning and top 10 / somewhere in the middle of high tier isn't that far off where he should be. He's still somewhat viable, I don't think anybod would argue that. Just not top tier or OP or whatever people say.

Ah I see we're going to pretend that SS captain awesum and mjg doesn't exist. Then we're also going to ignore Abadango top 8 with Wario and I guess Ally's top 8 with Mario. Yup when we ignore all of those things I guess greninja is on the same level....Tweek also used Wario at evo but I'll guess we'll ignore that also.