Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

He does? I think buffed!Greninja loses to Sheik to the same extent that the other A2 characters do and all the other matchups - while some of them are probably disadvantaged - don't really seem that bad. I still fail to see what's wrong with the character that supposedly keeps him from being high tier. At one point he was seen as freaking top tier, then a couple of nerfs came and they were kinda blown out of proportion - suddenly everybody had the character in low-mid tier for some [read: no] reason and everybody except like amsa and Eddy dropped him.

The truth is that he has been a very solid and respectable character all along and now that his already good projectile has been buffed and that he has legitimate kill setups out of a grab [!] I can totally see the character becoming a threat again. If anything, you could argue that the whole A2 row of my list shouldn't actually be high tier but I don't think Greninja is out of place there.

All of those characters in A/2 has shown something at the level of the game. If Amsa doesn't attend a tournament you're not seeing greninja. He doesn't even fill the you may see him in top 13. Being considered good early on isn't anything special. As we learn more about the game things change. I doubt that Greninja was on the level of prepatch diddy 3ds rosa or even sheik's earlier builds. Bowser was consider top tier and duck hunt was considered really good at a time.

@Kurogane Hammer is your frame data for greninja correct? You have nair at 12 frames and fair at 16 frames when I thought they were 10 and 14.

 

[TriTails]

Actually Gheb. I thought you said 'Characters who can't deal with Sheik' can't be viable. Yet you put Luigi in Top 10?

And Greninja is very, very viable. Should be no contest of saying that.

(Pro tip: Don't airdodge against Greninja)

 

[Jabejazz]

Can't you just jump out of it tho? I don't think I ever landed this thing unless people spam airdodge.

U-tilt juggle is better I think. Like. 1 U-tilt deals 11%. Da hell?

But maybe it's just me not being used to the FAF.

Pretty sure it's free on some fast fallers sometimes up to kill %. A Link did on a Pikachu at Umebura 18, although it seemed avoidable.

EDIT : Disregard this post.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

All of those characters in A/2 has shown something at the level of the game. If Amsa doesn't attend a tournament you're not seeing greninja.

Not any less than Mario with Ally [1 time only so far in a big tournament] or Villager with Ranai [charatcer would be NOTHING without him]. If I were to downgrade Greninja I'd have to take Mario, Villager and Wario with him and leave MK and Falcon up there ... which wouldn't be entirely unreasonable, I admit. Greninja should not be singled out in that category though imo.

Actually Gheb. I thought you said 'Characters who can't deal with Sheik' can't be viable. Yet you put Luigi in Top 10?

Can't really argue with Shaya's reasoning and top 10 / somewhere in the middle of high tier isn't that far off where he should be. He's still somewhat viable, I don't think anybod would argue that. Just not top tier or OP or whatever people say.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

ZSS' is freakin' F16.

4 frames is pretty huge for a grab, especially a tether. i16 is within human reaction, i12 isn't for most, especially not if you mix it up.
It's also a huge deal regarding shield grabbing. ZSS for example could nAir a shielding ZSS, but not a shielding Link, no matter the spacing.

 

[TriTails]

All of those characters in A/2 has shown something at the level of the game. If Amsa doesn't attend a tournament you're not seeing greninja. He doesn't even fill the you may see him in top 13. Being considered good early on isn't anything special. As we learn more about the game things change. I doubt that Greninja was on the level of prepatch diddy 3ds rosa or even sheik's earlier builds. Bowser was consider top tier and duck hunt was considered really good at a time.

I'm not the Greninja expert but the frog has a great projectile (Maybe one of the best tbh), tied for the best mobility specs in the game, has some nasty combos, disjointed fast smashes, Hydro Pump messing with recoveries and advantaged state, legit scary kill setup with D-throw + F-air, a kill throw, really gud dash grab, etc.

And I don't think that's all.

Pretty sure it's free on some fast fallers sometimes up to kill %. A Link did on a Pikachu at Umebura 18, although it seemed avoidable.

So uh.

U-smash is F10.
U-tilt is F8.

Surprising. I thought U-tilt is much faster than U-smash. Although, I don't think U-smash is guaranteed. But I think U-tilt is.

And MasterHooHah doesn't seem to be guaranteed either.

Can't really argue with Shaya's reasoning and top 10 / somewhere in the middle of high tier isn't that far off where he should be. He's still somewhat viable, I don't think anybod would argue that. Just not top tier or OP or whatever people say.

Uh...

Pretty sure Jabejazz had asked this before, but...

What rankings are considered 'top tier'? Top 3? Top 5? Top 7? Top 10?

4 frames is pretty huge for a grab, especially a tether. i16 is within human reaction, i12 isn't for most, especially not if you mix it up.
It's also a huge deal regarding shield grabbing. ZSS for example could nAir a shielding ZSS, but not a shielding Link, no matter the spacing.

I thought you meant Link's grab is what holds him back. Sorry about that. English isn't my mother tongue.

 

[Jabejazz]

So uh.

U-smash is F10.
U-tilt is F8.

Surprising. I thought U-tilt is much faster than U-smash. Although, I don't think U-smash is guaranteed. But I think U-tilt is.

And MasterHooHah doesn't seem to be guaranteed either.

Wow I'm an idiot, I read DThrow to UAir. Disregard my post. Serves me right for reading too fast.

 

[Pazx]

"Top Tier" is determined primarily by power level relative to the rest of the cast (or "the next best character") and is also somewhat affected by the size of the roster. We can't say for certain how large "top tier" is but I have an inclination that it's about 12 characters, although it may also be 6-7 characters.

 

[Blobface]

@ ~ Gheb ~ how much of the non-viable characters do you think are invalidated by Sheik alone? Do you think there are other characters that invalidate characters?

Also:

something something HOOHAA

-everyone

Does every grab combo need a name at this point or something?

 

[TriTails]

Does every grab combo need a name at this point or something?

Umm... They just appeared out of nowhere tbh.

Diddy used D-throw U-air a lot preprepreprepre-patch. Named HooHah.
A guy in Luigi boards said his tourney friends dubs D-throw Cyclone as HooHahNado. So I used that.
R.O.B. also has a HooHah, now called Beep Boop.
Palutena also has one, now called HalleHooHah.
I think I've seen someone said MasterHooHah, so I used that.

They are easier to type.

 

[Jabejazz]

Do you think there are other characters that invalidate characters?

Bang Bang.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It was asked and I did not see the answer.

Every single one of Ryus attacks and specials are considered seperate attacks.

He does not care about staleness. He nearly has double the amount of normals everyone else has and six times the amount of specials. B version moves have strength levels determined by how long you hold the button. As do input specials.

And you truly believe you have this character figured out in less then a year?

The arrogance of this forum fills me with contempt.

Trelas Ryu isnt even impressive btw. If hes your measuring stick then no wonder you think Ryu is bottom tier.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Bang Bang.

I loled. Although the word invalidate is kind of strong, IMO. Luigi does have weaknesses, believe it or not.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi does have weaknesses, believe it or not.

Wait, what? I thought his 'mobility weakness' is already as well known as Mario in the entire world and people were throwing him outta the top spot because of that?

Real talk: I play Luigi since day 1 and never I felt completely making a character so helpless like a bee inside of Venus Flytrap. I don't even think he has an advantage over 60:40. Due to Fireballs nerf, Ganon MU now feels solidly 60:40 instead of 'easier than 60:40, but harder than 65:35' stuff pre-patch. Everything else is pretty much the same.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I loled. Although the word invalidate is kind of strong, IMO. Luigi does have weaknesses, believe it or not.

Brawl Dedede had a host of crippling weaknesses, but it didn't stop him from invalidating half the cast with the extreme strengths he had.

 

[Jabejazz]

I loled. Although the word invalidate is kind of strong, IMO. Luigi does have weaknesses, believe it or not.

I dunno, your tournament future is looking grim if your character can't beat Luigi consistently.

 

[adom4]

Wait, what? I thought his 'mobility weakness' is already as well known as Mario in the entire world and people were throwing him outta the top spot because of that?

Real talk: I play Luigi since day 1 and never I felt completely making a character so helpless like a bee inside of Venus Flytrap. I don't even think he has an advantage over 60:40. Due to Fireballs nerf, Ganon MU now feels solidly 60:40 instead of 'easier than 60:40, but harder than 65:35' stuff pre-patch. Everything else is pretty much the same.

I haven't faced a Luigi post patch, do you think the fireball nerf is that significant for Ganon?

 

[TriTails]

I haven't faced a Luigi post patch, do you think the fireball nerf is that significant for Ganon?

Kinda. It's not noticeable normally, but if you DO spam them, then it's kinda there.

Not very significant. Probably from 62:48 or 63:47 (lol) to 60:40. At least it's better for Ganon to get in.

And also, D-smash buff. It's legit scary now.

The MU generally didn't change much. It's just Luigi now has to be more honest with Fireballs as shields exist and PSes are easier now. Ganon does outranges him and kills him with like, 3 reads. It doesn't help that Luigi likes to be close to people to do stuffs.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@ ~ Gheb ~ how much of the non-viable characters do you think are invalidated by Sheik alone? Do you think there are other characters that invalidate characters?

Let's see ...

Spoiler

- Sheik probably 'invalidates' these characters but I doubt she's the only one. Without Sheik would they make it past the likes of ZSS, Fox, Pikachu, ... or Luigi ? I can't really see it, so 'invalidated' by Sheik, yes. By her alone? I don't think so. [Some of these characters may not even be that bad against Sheik fwiw but it's kind of well understood by like everybody that these characters are unviable regardless].

- I don't know much about these characters, nor do I know how well they actually handle Sheik. I've seen Tweek going closeish with Vinnie so maybe the matchup isn't terrible? I've also seen Brood take out competent Sheik players before - I think it's more a matter of top tier characters in sum being too much for them to be really viable.

- not sure if 'invalidating' is the correct term here because I think this character has room to grow and I'm not sure if Sheik is a truly terrible matchup. He could be similar to Ike as he doesn't get destroyed by anything anymore really but just doesn't quite cut it for high tier for whatever reason.

- for a mid-tierish character he has an interesting niche as he has manageable matchups against Sheik and Fox. It's ZSS, Yoshi and Sonic that prevent him from getting anywhere imo

- rumor has it that this character doesn't do too bad against Sheik. But somewhere between Fox, ZSS, Sonic, Rosalina, Captain Falcon, Luigi and Yoshi there must be something that makes life hell for Lucario.

- Sheik is pretty bad for them but so is ZSS. Invalidated might be too strong a term in either case but it's surely a consistent uphill battle.

- Possibly invalidated by Sheik alone. They have some other disadvantages but Sheik is clearly what holds them back the most.

- no idea, really.

So the way I see it there's about ~4 characters whose viability is essentially ruined by Sheik alone. In case of most other characters it's usually a mix of at least two characters between ZSS, Fox, Pikachu, Rosalina, Luigi, Sonic and Yoshi cockblocking them for life.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Sorry if the reasons aren't good enough, tried to do the best I could.

Anyway MY TIER LIST! (Customs Off)

S:

A:

B:

C:

D+:

D:

D-:

E:

F:

Reasons:

:Kirby is probably the most underrated character in the game right now. He has amazing air attacks, amazing and deadly comboing, great throws, that can either KO (Although it's not that good at it), or combo, he has good smashes (His Up smash KOs earlier than Foxes!!), He can use his opponent''s neutral special, he has good recovery, and customs on he has a good finisher and stuff (But this tier list is customs off). Plus his crouch. And most of hos top tier matchups aren't that bad.

:A VERY underrated character. His projectiles can do crazy stuff (Metal Blade can go in any direction allowing you to use them anytime to attempt to harm, his airs are great, his smashes are great, and his KO power is amazing!!!

:A VERY underrated character as well. He has Amazing range, great smashes and some airs are great, and monados help him recover, damage rack, KO power, and survive

:Yet ANOTHER VERY underrated character in this game. She has amazing edgeguarding, amazing comboing, Wall of Pain, great down and side specials, and great airs, and a great up tilt.

:No representation used in this list, I have one that uses results though if you're interested.

:I don't think he's quite top 10 yet, unlike most people. But he's still great, he feels like a top 15 character (Although Pac-Man just BARLY gets him away from it, although they could switch at like any time.

:Always thought he's overrated as crap, He's not bad but he isn't good either.

:There are characters better than him, simple enough.

His comboing is really great, and his down specials and airs are also very great.

:He has good combos, good attacks, great airs, and his generally average, which is better than many other characters, (Although he's slightly more)

:Many of his attacks are bad (Most aren't) or have SOME flaw, although it's still a great character.

:His startup or end lag on most of hos moves are devestating, he csn't get past high-mod because of it.

He's still really slow in many of his attacks, so he's still middle tier.

:Other characters are better than him, some attacks have endlag or just plain suck.

:Dabuz has shown us what she's capable of

She still has major flaws, still sucks. and still has crappy attacks (Well, at least sometimes are crappy)

Still slow, his startup and/or end lag is huge

:He's kinda underrated, he's still good

:He's very underrated, his combos, KO power, and air attacks make him middle tier, and than frame data takes him to low tier, he's far from second worst

:She has many terrible flaws, but other characters have it worse or can't combo

Ask questions if you want, I answered the most important but I could have made a mistake, not wlborated enough, might not have answered a questionable placement, etc

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I dunno, your tournament future is looking grim if your character can't beat Luigi consistently.

Brawl Dedede had a host of crippling weaknesses, but it didn't stop him from invalidating half the cast with the extreme strengths he had.

Wait, what? I thought his 'mobility weakness' is already as well known as Mario in the entire world and people were throwing him outta the top spot because of that?

Real talk: I play Luigi since day 1 and never I felt completely making a character so helpless like a bee inside of Venus Flytrap. I don't even think he has an advantage over 60:40. Due to Fireballs nerf, Ganon MU now feels solidly 60:40 instead of 'easier than 60:40, but harder than 65:35' stuff pre-patch. Everything else is pretty much the same.

The majority of the characters with the most consistent tournament results can't beat Luigi consistently. Diddy, Fox, Mario, Sonic, Pikachu, etc.

Edit: I guess pikachu isn't dominating results actually.

Brawl DDD had more strengths and less weaknesses than Luigi, IMO. Also almost everyone mid tier and below were garbage in that game compared to top and high.

It's less the mobility at this point, and more the fact that he's free off stage to a lot of players who edgeguard well, and also has lesser but still noticeable issues landing. Most people don't really try to learn how to exploit this because they get straight up demoralized at the CSS like "welp, he picked Luigi, gg."

Invalidate is more like 8-2, which may not even exist at all in this game with the balance adjustments so far.

 

[Nate1080]

Trelas Ryu isnt even impressive btw. If hes your measuring stick then no wonder you think Ryu is bottom tier.

Who are the good Ryus to watch? I've been trying to get good with Ryu for a while now and wanted to see what the good players are doing that I am not (or doing too much of).

 

[Wintermelon43]

Let's see ...

Spoiler

- Sheik probably 'invalidates' these characters but I doubt she's the only one. Without Sheik would they make it past the likes of ZSS, Fox, Pikachu, ... or Luigi ? I can't really see it, so 'invalidated' by Sheik, yes. By her alone? I don't think so. [Some of these characters may not even be that bad against Sheik fwiw but it's kind of well understood by like everybody that these characters are unviable regardless].

- I don't know much about these characters, nor do I know how well they actually handle Sheik. I've seen Tweek going closeish with Vinnie so maybe the matchup isn't terrible? I've also seen Brood take out competent Sheik players before - I think it's more a matter of top tier characters in sum being too much for them to be really viable.

- not sure if 'invalidating' is the correct term here because I think this character has room to grow and I'm not sure if Sheik is a truly terrible matchup. He could be similar to Ike as he doesn't get destroyed by anything anymore really but just doesn't quite cut it for high tier for whatever reason.

- for a mid-tierish character he has an interesting niche as he has manageable matchups against Sheik and Fox. It's ZSS, Yoshi and Sonic that prevent him from getting anywhere imo

- rumor has it that this character doesn't do too bad against Sheik. But somewhere between Fox, ZSS, Sonic, Rosalina, Captain Falcon, Luigi and Yoshi there must be something that makes life hell for Lucario.

- Sheik is pretty bad for them but so is ZSS. Invalidated might be too strong a term in either case but it's surely a consistent uphill battle.

- Possibly invalidated by Sheik alone. They have some other disadvantages but Sheik is clearly what holds them back the most.

- no idea, really.

So the way I see it there's about ~4 characters whose viability is essentially ruined by Sheik alone. In case of most other characters it's usually a mix of at least two characters between ZSS, Fox, Pikachu, Rosalina, Luigi, Sonic and Yoshi cockblocking them for life.

Kirby has an advantage aganist ZSS, Kirby can crouch under a lot of her moveset

 

[warionumbah2]

Kirby has an advantage aganist ZSS, Kirby can crouch under a lot of her moveset

That reason alone doesn't mean he beats her.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Invalidate is more like 8-2, which may not even exist at all in this game with the balance adjustments so far.

I'm of the mind that Luigi and Falcon (especially Falcon) are able to manipulate space in neutral so well that a lot of characters can't really establish a reliable neutral game because they're forced to respect the burst range. The popular characters that lose to Luigi have a lot of things going for them (mobility being a big one), but a good chunk of the cast doesn't really have that luxury. I would call 7-3 unviable/invalidated, myself.

 

[Illuminose]

I think that we're kind of obligated to place Luigi pretty high on the tier list. He loses to Sheik and Rosalina, yes, but he beats most other top tiers and does well vs much of the cast, utterly destroying some characters. He beats Pikachu, Fox, Diddy Kong, Mario... Even Luigi vs Sheik can be done. The evidence of this is that we've seen Mr. ConCon actually relatively keep up with ZeRo in the past, and Mr. ConCon has taken sets from talented Sheiks like K9 and VoiD in the past. The matchup is hard (60:40ish?), but not undoable.

 

[Zelder]

Sure are a lot of underrated characters in this game.

 

[Wintermelon43]

That reason alone doesn't mean he beats her.

It actually does though.

 

[LightLV]

The key factor to remember when discussing Ganondorf is Rage. When you've knocked him around for a while, suddenly needing only three good reads becomes two good reads.

You'd think this would be a redeeming factor in a character, but more often than not (nearly always) this design choice just backfires and makes a character really strong at face value but competitively too disadvantaged to hold a top spot.

Edit: or any spot really. I'm just thinking of all the slow, "one mistake" characters that are bottom tier.

Palutena is a character I just can't understand for the life of me. Like, half of her moves are junk, and the other half are only "good" for the most part. And she's insanely centralized on her grab. Is there any other character this centralized on anything?

And then... Well, what's the point? What's her draw, her gimmick? Everything she does, somebody else does better. It's not really a playstyle thing either, since she can't really do anything well. Her default specials are quite underwhelming, and the only good customs turn her into a mini Sonic.

Whats her gimmick? There isn't a character in the game that can move like she can, poke/grab game on fleek, with the most aggravating f***ing dash attack and Bair in the game that beats literally everything.

 

[Jabejazz]

Brawl DDD had more strengths and less weaknesses than Luigi, IMO. Also almost everyone mid tier and below were garbage in that game compared to top and high.

Invalidate is more like 8-2, which may not even exist at all in this game with the balance adjustments so far.

Brawl DDD was one of the most polarized character in the whole cast.

Quite a few of the characters he "invalidated" weren't 8-2. It's more of the fact he has almost only positive matchups against anything below him. A bit like Luigi.

Besides, yeah, if invalidate means 8-2 for you, then I guess Sheik doesn't invalidate much outside of the bottom 10ish.
And we all know that's just not true.

 

[Routa]

*sees Mii Swordfighter in bottom tier*
*eyes start to bleed*

 

[Antonykun]

That move beats Rosalina's uair? Impressive. Megaman's projectile uair would certainly beat it. The only other candidates I can think off off the top of my head are Shulk uair and maybe Gunner uair (not too familiar with this character, 1/4 Gunner would likely lose). Does the move cover Swordfighter's sides well? When I played him it felt like the move only covered below him.

Those seem to be about right. I think the move covers a character length bellow Swordfighter and the reach of the blade is a little deceptive

 

[Man Li Gi]

I've been wondering why we talk in circles so much. Whenever a patch comes out, everyone gets excited for their respective mains getting buffed and start over rating. Then a couple days later we see people making tier lists around the buffs. And then for some reason or another the Luigi discussion continues to persist. Then I'm just about done with the thread, but for some reason, a "sleeper" or unexpected character starts doing well in tourney and people simultaneously try to inflate and deflate the character's quality giving everyone a murky impression and thus causing wonkier tier lists. I also forget about the random warnings that fall from the sky amidst the entire sequence...............................*new patch* rinse and repeat.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Brawl DDD was one of the most polarized character in the whole cast.

Quite a few of the characters he "invalidated" weren't 8-2. It's more of the fact he has almost only positive matchups against anything below him. A bit like Luigi.

Besides, yeah, if invalidate means 8-2 for you, then I guess Sheik doesn't invalidate much outside of the bottom 10ish.
And we all know that's just not true.

Do we though? I'm not certain that the character invalidates anyone but maybe her easiest matchups, although she clearly has an advantage on most.

I thought a DK just knocked a monster Shiek into losers at the last major. Why is it so obvious to everyone she's unbeatable? The game isn't a year old.

I feel like the word invalidate is thrown around too much.

 

[Nu~]

Sorry if the reasons aren't good enough, tried to do the best I could.








Still slow, his startup and/or end lag is huge

His frame data isn't the problem...he has some of the best frame data in the game

 

[Antonykun]

F:
Can't find Trela gameplay, he may be higher if I find it

Here's trela's amazing performance in KSL9

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

You can find EVEN MORE videos by typing "Trela Mii Swordfighter" on Youtube

 

[LightLV]

His frame data isn't the problem...he has some of the best frame data in the game

It's just his projectile. If falco had a decent laser game he would be so much better.

I just use the Mario brothers as an example. They have full aerial movement during their projectile, can combo off it, and can even punish you for blocking it. And they both really do have the best frame data in the game with none of the downsides falco does.

I've been wondering why we talk in circles so much. Whenever a patch comes out, everyone gets excited for their respective mains getting buffed and start over rating. Then a couple days later we see people making tier lists around the buffs. And then for some reason or another the Luigi discussion continues to persist. Then I'm just about done with the thread, but for some reason, a "sleeper" or unexpected character starts doing well in tourney and people simultaneously try to inflate and deflate the character's quality giving everyone a murky impression and thus causing wonkier tier lists. I also forget about the random warnings that fall from the sky amidst the entire sequence...............................*new patch* rinse and repeat.

welcome to literally every fighting game forum on earth

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

It actually does though.

She completely outspaces him, he can crouch as much as he wants.

 

[Wintermelon43]

View attachment 68086

You can find EVEN MORE videos by typing "Trela Mii Swordfighter" on Youtube

Did the Miis use default specials or customs? (Need to know for the tier list purposes)

 

[Firefoxx]

I've been wondering why we talk in circles so much. Whenever a patch comes out, everyone gets excited for their respective mains getting buffed and start over rating. Then a couple days later we see people making tier lists around the buffs. And then for some reason or another the Luigi discussion continues to persist. Then I'm just about done with the thread, but for some reason, a "sleeper" or unexpected character starts doing well in tourney and people simultaneously try to inflate and deflate the character's quality giving everyone a murky impression and thus causing wonkier tier lists. I also forget about the random warnings that fall from the sky amidst the entire sequence...............................*new patch* rinse and repeat.

Probably because this thread has no real goal. The only prompt is "talk about characters/the metagame at large in a smart way" which many times leads to good discussion but can just as often lead to everyone being super hyperbolic for a couple pages at a time.