Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[NachoOfCheese]

So how's that Link and Duck Hunt MU going guys? Going good for Duck Hunt?

I'm having trouble understanding the purpose of sharing this on a thread about competitive Smash Bros.

 

[Shaya]

Team. You know the stance on dealing with bad posts.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Team. You know the stance on dealing with bad posts.

Everyone berates the user, a warning is handed, and then just when we think it's over, someone brings it up one last time and then we actually start discussing why the post is silly. Am I wrong?

 

[Antonykun]

Everyone berates the user, a warning is handed, and then just when we think it's over, someone brings it up one last time and then we actually start discussing why the post is silly. Am I wrong?

that's so true it hurts.

so uh do you guys know any moves that can beat the giant wall of disjointed hitboxes that is Swordfighter's d-air. Like even I who knows the character better than 90% of the smash community and I just Could not challenge that move. Juggling this guy is hard :/ i guess i should be happy but learning that while you were playing a juggle heavy char like Rosalina was just gross

 

[Shaya]

If that were the case I'd always be throwing warnings at those berating too for it's needlessness. So if it happens several times in a short period it makes me likely to ATTACK.
Anyway carry on!

Okay fine.

Shaya-tier-list-something-time

Tippy:
Toppy:
Boppity: *
Boop:

Not too High, not too Slow :

"really really broken":

* I am definitely underrating Rosalina... she's hard to truly evaluate at this stage after a widely buffed cast + natural growth in understanding new game mechanics on a character.
Also as I said recently, Luigi can't be behind (in my mind that is) characters who don't have easy times throughout the top while he's the counter (possibly the only) to several.

There's a lot of small notable variations towards the higher tiers, more than half the game are seemingly solid. Then a majority of the rest don't all seem to be suffering crippling shortcomings (i.e. have discernible understanding that more than Nairo/Trela can win with them). The rest aren't bad either, I just think they don't have much chance against the current sky-line infrastructure; although to some extent buffing them [a lot] may not be appropriate for wifi/casual balance at this stage, although a lot of them have had very little love across the patch cycle thus far.
If I were to pick a worst character in the game... it would probably be Jigglypuff. Japanese wifi Samus can boggle the mind with beauty.I've never thought Zelda was trash, etc.
I kinda half ordered things, half the time.

Miis are in a really weird legality predicament right now. I think all 3 could feasibly join Brawl Sonic even with 1111.
I always forget someone in my "look at the character icons" style of bringing these together. Sorry.

 

[Mario766]

Ike being almost high tier.

After having to deal with Ike's nerfs until these patches I would have never seen the day.

I can't even think of anything else Ike can really get that would be acceptable without going overboard.

Down Air getting a slight buff to IASA or have the hitbox linger just slightly longer, not 14 frames as Brawl, with only a sour spot. It'd make Ike stronger vs recoveries like Rosalina because he could just stick out a really strong sour spot where Rosalina has to recover. I could see some complains from that though because it'd make some MUs hell for recovering.

That's about it, as that's his only move that really serves almost zero purpose in his kit after the 12 hitbox frame nerfs given to it.

If we wanted Ike to be high tier, Jab being back at a 17 frame IASA would be just the ticket he needs. He'd get Jab -> Grab on floaties and Jab -> Down tilt on anything else. We PM Ike now bois. Won't happen.

I won't even pray for backwards Aether ledge grab, nope. I can already see what that'd do in some MUs. It isn't pretty.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Mainly because PEPE had to fish for the setups and ended up prolonging the battle. Most of them kill a LOT earlier ( the dash attack to bell to side B which kills at 60%). When practiced more, they can all land at earlier percentages and kill.

Like, that bell to back throw to usmash will not only kill at 150 lol. You're looking more at 80-100% depending on weight.

You are right I fished a lot for this setups, half of them kills around 80% 100%

 

[Jams.]

that's so true it hurts.

so uh do you guys know any moves that can beat the giant wall of disjointed hitboxes that is Swordfighter's d-air. Like even I who knows the character better than 90% of the smash community and I just Could not challenge that move. Juggling this guy is hard :/ i guess i should be happy but learning that while you were playing a juggle heavy char like Rosalina was just gross

That move beats Rosalina's uair? Impressive. Megaman's projectile uair would certainly beat it. The only other candidates I can think off off the top of my head are Shulk uair and maybe Gunner uair (not too familiar with this character, 1/4 Gunner would likely lose). Does the move cover Swordfighter's sides well? When I played him it felt like the move only covered below him.

 

[Cassio]

Also why did Nairo lose his first set against ESAM?
Because ESAM, like any player who frequently gets to practice against Zero Suit Samus knows how to punish flip jump/down-b used poorly.
You may have noticed that every flip jump used by him outside of heavy advantaged state was punished. Every single one.
The lack of comfortability/overzealous usages of it cost him the set for sure.

This is like QA, smart use is good but habitual/bad use is crippling

Btw is down b oos a thing? I'm not sure it has utility, but if Melee foxes can do it w/o control mapping Id think it's something to look into if it's not done already.

I always forget someone in my "look at the character icons" style of bringing these together. Sorry.

 

[Shaya]

I was just thinking today of trying to figure out what things ZSS could punish with down-b out of a power shield. Fastest way otherwise would be jump down-b which is probably much too high off the ground. Perhaps some sort of full hop aerial meta future usage?

No idea right now how viable it is (Sheik can do it~), I'd assume every fat character and swordsman wouldn't like it.

 

[Browny]

stuff

Ryu above Sonic? The mind; it boggles.

You've got like, hardly any results vs a top tier performer since the game came out.

I'm convinced Ryu is bottom tier, until I see literally any results that aren't Tr3la, coz he does the same thing no matter which character he uses. All I see is Ryu's struggling to get the KO before 150% when they rely too hard on upb and then freaking out over a sick 4-hit 20% combo which most characters in the game get for free on a grab.

GET MAD PPL

 

[Ghostbone]

Sonic's in top tier, Brawl sonic is in the name of another tier.

Though yea Trela does well with Charizard so can't rate Ryu by how well he does.

 

[Shaya]

I've just died to disgusting stuff from Ryu before and I know it's just a massive nupnupnupnupnup response from me "oh you're so Zero Suit Samus doesn't give a fluff about bs priority fodder".
And you know the ":" came after the Brawl Sonic right?

I could be convinced he's a bit more niche than I give him credit for right now.

Ghostbone, I think he could be referring to Brawl Sonic properly in relation to Ryu. It's not impossible. It makes sense for him :#

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Ryu above Sonic? The mind; it boggles.

You've got like, hardly any results vs a top tier performer since the game came out.

I'm convinced Ryu is bottom tier, until I see literally any results that aren't Tr3la, coz he does the same thing no matter which character he uses. All I see is Ryu's struggling to get the KO before 150% when they rely too hard on upb and then freaking out over a sick 4-hit 20% combo which most characters in the game get for free on a grab.

GET MAD PPL

I think you are slightly confused.

There is no point in using Up B Shoryuken to kill at 150% when True Shoryuken can kill at 80%.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

"Senpais hot opinions"

Could you please elaborate your stand on both Lucario and Lucas?
My knowledge on Lucas is barely existent but I'm surprised that you haven't placed Lucario one tier higher.

I think you are slightly confused.

There is no point in using Up B Shoryuken to kill at 150% when True Shoryuken can kill at 80%.

I just wondered, do True Sure You Can and the uSpecial version share freshness?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Could you please elaborate your stand on both Lucario and Lucas?
My knowledge on Lucas is barely existent but I'm surprised that you haven't placed Lucario one tier higher.



I just wondered, do True Sure You Can and the uSpecial version share freshness?

Light and heavy tilts don't, so I don't see why it wouldn't be the same in this case.


@ KuroganeHammer could probably tell you for sure if they do share the same freshness () or not.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I dunno. I reckon they would, that would be OP if they didn't.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I dunno. I reckon they would, that would be OP if they didn't.

Eh, gonna test this this evening if we don't get a definitive answer.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Someone remind me why people still consider Lucina a tier below Marth when she:

- Is safer on shield
- Is Marth with consistent damage
- Her fsmash kills at absurd percentages and requires no effort to tipper

 

[TriTails]

I consider a 60:40 to be a significant advantage as far as matchup ratios go and based on my experience in the matchup and looking at the characters tools I just don't see a significant enough advantage in Luigi's tools to warrant the matchup being that bad.

It probably looks that way most of the time as Fox vs Luigi takes quite a bit of matchup knowledge on the Fox's part while Luigi on the other hand is generally playing his typical game, which is inherently better albeit a bit exaggerated against fast fallers. However, Fox does have the tools to punish fairly heavily, camp and zone well in this matchup. I just can't see that translating to a significant advantage for Luigi.

Luigi can crawl under lasers.

And then you have a character who hit harder and faster, absolutely murders you while in disadvantage, gimp you with B-air, kill you easily, combo you like mad, N-air outta your combos, etc.

Those are things Luigi do to most of the cast? Fox take those things too from most of the cast? Sure. But Fox probably is one of the few who takes most of those hard. Like, you're already almost as light as Rosalina and dies early to the side, you're a combo meat on a character who is the master of combos as well? And the fact we crawl under lasers and force you to do something else in neutral? Or the fact we trades better? Those are enough to get the MU at 60:40.

 

[Shaya]

Could you please elaborate your stand on both Lucario and Lucas?
My knowledge on Lucas is barely existent but I'm surprised that you haven't placed Lucario one tier higher.

I think Lucario got blown a bit out of proportion from his ability to produce upsets. Obviously a high aura lucario approaches best character in the game (and definitely would be in many match ups), but I've not really seen what ensures Lucario is a solid pick yet, his power in my mind still seems as inconsistent as the likes of Mac. If the power of the aura continues to rise I'm willing to change my mind, I did put him towards that high barrier with intent though.

I've seen Lucas played out by NAKAT and show what seemed like an alright character anecdotally. A few small buffs were given as well. All the recent DLC characters are hard to rate though so I hate you for picking on me @_@. Zair stuff, alright spacing game, wtf recovery [in contrast to Ness], throws are definitely very solid. I see a lot of similar qualities in Lucas as ZSS but my bearings on his capabilities are nothing too definite, although the "power level" seems about right. Like Lucario, intent of having him at the lower end of that barrier because of uncertainty. I would love to see more discussion on him, I feel like he's barely been touched by anyone here (or in general) while we tend to be more confident on Roy and Ryu.

(if not in roughly the right alphabetical position it's > implication)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So uh, in accordance with a couple of general statements I made over the course of the last few days/weeks here's what I'm personally looking at with regards to a tier list:


Top Tier aka viable:

S1:
S2:


High Tier aka somewhat viable:

A1:
A2:


Still in development:



Everybody else is beyond of what I'd define as 'viable'. So after high tier I'd start high-mid tier with the likes of Ike, Mii Swordfighter, the Pits ... character that aren't bad per se ... but you know, even if they placed "only" like 13th at a major / international tournament it would already be considered an extraordinary achievement.

 

[outfoxd]

What KO confirms does Duck Hunt have? Not even just against Link, like, at all? Obviously I don't think it's a 9-1 lol, but it is bad.

He doesn't. Every kill is from mind control, and smashes working.

 

[Wintermelon43]

If that were the case I'd always be throwing warnings at those berating too for it's needlessness. So if it happens several times in a short period it makes me likely to ATTACK.
Anyway carry on!

Okay fine.

Shaya-tier-list-something-time

Tippy:
Toppy:
Boppity: *
Boop:

Not too High, not too Slow :

"really really broken":

* I am definitely underrating Rosalina... she's hard to truly evaluate at this stage after a widely buffed cast + natural growth in understanding new game mechanics on a character.
Also as I said recently, Luigi can't be behind (in my mind that is) characters who don't have easy times throughout the top while he's the counter (possibly the only) to several.

There's a lot of small notable variations towards the higher tiers, more than half the game are seemingly solid. Then a majority of the rest don't all seem to be suffering crippling shortcomings (i.e. have discernible understanding that more than Nairo/Trela can win with them). The rest aren't bad either, I just think they don't have much chance against the current sky-line infrastructure; although to some extent buffing them [a lot] may not be appropriate for wifi/casual balance at this stage, although a lot of them have had very little love across the patch cycle thus far.
If I were to pick a worst character in the game... it would probably be Jigglypuff. Japanese wifi Samus can boggle the mind with beauty.I've never thought Zelda was trash, etc.
I kinda half ordered things, half the time.

Miis are in a really weird legality predicament right now. I think all 3 could feasibly join Brawl Sonic even with 1111.
I always forget someone in my "look at the character icons" style of bringing these together. Sorry.

We're allowed to post tier lists now?

And serisualy, JIGGLYPUFF last? and Shulk that low?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

We're allowed to post tier lists now?

As long as you don't just randomly post a tierlist without explaining your thought process ever you're contributing to the discussion and it should be fine. The point is that we don't want everybody just posting random lists that make no sense and then dip.

 

[Wintermelon43]

As long as you don't just randomly post a tierlist without explaining your thought process ever you're contributing to the discussion and it should be fine. The point is that we don't want everybody just posting random lists that make no sense and then dip.

So tier lists are okay if you give reasons?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You better ask a mod for details though.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So tier lists are okay if you give reasons?

Educated reasons.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Educated reasons.

What does that mean

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So uh, in accordance with a couple of general statements I made over the course of the last few days/weeks here's what I'm personally looking at with regards to a tier list:


Top Tier aka viable:

S1:
S2:


High Tier aka somewhat viable:

A1:
A2:


Still in development:



Everybody else is beyond of what I'd define as 'viable'. So after high tier I'd start high-mid tier with the likes of Ike, Mii Swordfighter, the Pits ... character that aren't bad per se ... but you know, even if they placed "only" like 13th at a major / international tournament it would already be considered an extraordinary achievement.

Why is greninja so high on your list? He seems like a non viable character based on your standards.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

What does that mean

They need to be logical reasons, and not something like "Megaman is a better character than Luigi because he can't get past lemons".

 

[Smog Frog]

i have major issues with people not putting in "solo-viable" tier. exactly how do we know that he gets destroyed(aka more than -1) by other than nick riddle going on a hedgehog killing spree? mr. riddle has extensive experience with campy hedgehogs because he plays almost regularly against the campiest out there(staticmanny). i dont have a clear recollection of how each of his sets went, but i do know he struggled against 6wx(he was about to take the set but then got hit with the ol roofio). to me it seems like hedgehogs that don't want to adjust from their campy style to a more aggressive style that get destroyed by .

inviting @NickRiddle for his opinions

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

What does that mean

If I would make a tier list, 70% of the cast would not be placed because of actual knowledge.
I could either copy paste my senpais tier list and change up one or two characters that I have knowledge about, which would be pretty redundant for the thread, or do my own stuff based on OPINIONS where everything would fall apart as soon as someone starts questioning me.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Educated reasons.

Played a link that was like top 16 at smash con at our weekly last night, the character should be slept on about as much as Ike.

Landing traps all day, way better OOS options than I was previously aware. Seriously, his up b and up smash are brutal OOS and his reward off of a grab is ridiculous.

And that weight though, the guy was living forever with the bomb jumping.

 

[Shaya]

I could see ZeRo almost losing to a Link.
Seriously.

He's got a really solid game play at the single step level but I still think he's lacking mid range capabilities.
Although down throw up smash is kinda stupid, that's more damage than Diddy ever did, please Sakuwhy.

Is there any series represented in Smash at this stage that doesn't have at least 1 high/approaching top tier representative though?
And in terms of some of the core/classic franchises; Mario (in particular, holy crap), Zelda, Donkey Kong, Metroid, Starfox, Pokemon they all have at least one top tier and (if bigger than 2 reps) a debatable high tier or better. Kirby series has MK all of a sudden giving the possibility. Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus with recent limelight are overall a pretty strong bunch as well.

In essence the only underpowered franchises at this stage would be... MonadoBoyz, Wii Fit, maybe Miis/Duck Hunt/Megaman/G&W if I'm not missing anything, but results exist for [nearly] all of them anyway.

 

[Jabejazz]

What does that mean

Means no Kirby in top 5.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Imo the big thing about Link is his grab right now. It's freakin i12.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Means no Kirby in top 5.

DANG IT I WANTED TO PLACE HIM THERE!!!!


(Joking of course)

 

[TriTails]

They need to be logical reasons, and not something like "Megaman is a better character than Luigi because he can't get past lemons".

I almost snapped when I realized it was just an example.

But anyway, remember, shield beats pellets.

I really don't want these 'spamming pellets beats Luigi' from spreading again.

Imo the big thing about Link is his grab right now. It's freakin i12.

ZSS' is freakin' F16.

I could see ZeRo almost losing to a Link.
Seriously.

He's got a really solid game play at the single step level but I still think he's lacking mid range capabilities.
Although down throw up smash is kinda stupid, that's more damage than Diddy ever did, please Sakuwhy.

Can't you just jump out of it tho? I don't think I ever landed this thing unless people spam airdodge.

U-tilt juggle is better I think. Like. 1 U-tilt deals 11%. Da hell?

But maybe it's just me not being used to the FAF.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why is greninja so high on your list? He seems like a non viable character based on your standards.

He does? I think buffed!Greninja loses to Sheik to the same extent that the other A2 characters do and all the other matchups - while some of them are probably disadvantaged - don't really seem that bad. I still fail to see what's wrong with the character that supposedly keeps him from being high tier. At one point he was seen as freaking top tier, then a couple of nerfs came and they were kinda blown out of proportion - suddenly everybody had the character in low-mid tier for some [read: no] reason and everybody except like amsa and Eddy dropped him.

The truth is that he has been a very solid and respectable character all along and now that his already good projectile has been buffed and that he has legitimate kill setups out of a grab [!] I can totally see the character becoming a threat again. If anything, you could argue that the whole A2 row of my list shouldn't actually be high tier but I don't think Greninja is out of place there.