Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Coffee™]

Most Fox mains and Fox board seem to agree this MU is 60:40 Luigi. While it's still perfectly manageable it's not close to even. And I can see why it's 60:40.

I consider a 60:40 to be a significant advantage as far as matchup ratios go and based on my experience in the matchup and looking at the characters tools I just don't see a significant enough advantage in Luigi's tools to warrant the matchup being that bad.

It probably looks that way most of the time as Fox vs Luigi takes quite a bit of matchup knowledge on the Fox's part while Luigi on the other hand is generally playing his typical game, which is inherently better albeit a bit exaggerated against fast fallers. However, Fox does have the tools to punish fairly heavily, camp and zone well in this matchup. I just can't see that translating to a significant advantage for Luigi.

 

[LancerStaff]

Palutena is a character I just can't understand for the life of me. Like, half of her moves are junk, and the other half are only "good" for the most part. And she's insanely centralized on her grab. Is there any other character this centralized on anything?

And then... Well, what's the point? What's her draw, her gimmick? Everything she does, somebody else does better. It's not really a playstyle thing either, since she can't really do anything well. Her default specials are quite underwhelming, and the only good customs turn her into a mini Sonic.

 

[Ghostbone]

I mean the Sheik matchup's even, I know Kirby loses to Meta Knight

omfg i wrote the wrong character
Replace MK with Sheik and my post makes sense.

 

[Wintermelon43]

omfg i wrote the wrong character
Replace MK with Sheik and my post makes sense.

Lol I thought it was a mistake on my end.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Palutena makes a lot more sense with Customs. Superspeed makes her approaches logical, and Lightweight makes her grab dangerous.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

DK vs Robin matchup analyzed on DKwill's stream right now.
http://www.twitch.tv/DKwill

 

[Locke 06]

Palutena is a character I just can't understand for the life of me. Like, half of her moves are junk, and the other half are only "good" for the most part. And she's insanely centralized on her grab. Is there any other character this centralized on anything?

And then... Well, what's the point? What's her draw, her gimmick? Everything she does, somebody else does better. It's not really a playstyle thing either, since she can't really do anything well. Her default specials are quite underwhelming, and the only good customs turn her into a mini Sonic.

If you press a button to challenge any of Palutena's moves (except FAir, DAir, and grab) you lose. If she is able to challenge your moves, you lose.

Her design is pretty self explanatory. She has a counter AND a reflector, 2 invincible moves, and disjoints. She's a turtle. I mean... Her tilts scream turtle. Problem is that turtling doesn't work.

Oh, and she has a projectile to force approaches.

Also, it's an issue when you don't have any good OoS options as a turtle. But I guess she's designed not to shield (buff counter to frame 3 would help a lot. I'd be curious what she'd be like if counter was frame 2).

 

[Greward]

Ganon really doesn't need any buffs at this point. There's a few luxuries he'd like to have (F6 jab, slightly longer grab range, and the grab on Dark Dive being stronger), but he's in a pretty good position as is. What he really needs is a few top tiers, especially Sheik, to get some changes/nerfs. He's a perfectly functional character with too many bad top tier matchups.

I can disagree a lot. He needs buffs, just like all other the heavy characters in this game because heavies are terribly designed in smash.
Ganondorf still struggles in most positions. He's slow both running, air speed and frame data, and hasn't got long disjointed moves either to use in neutral. He has few tools in neutral and most of them are bad.
His individual moves are strong and deal quite some %, but they are just there to make up for the lack of combos, so he doesn't deal enough damage to compensate his horrible everything.
He has strong options and can kill pretty early (which is his most defining strength). He needs a read, but besides a read he also needs opponents to have some lag at some point so he can abuse that read. You can read a Sheik fair but most probably you won't be able to Fsmash it unless very specific situations. And yeah, usually good characters have little end lag and great frame data.
Good mobility is a determining factor on a character kill options too.
So overall ganondorf has a bad neutral game, a bad disadvantage game (huge frame, slow, horrible recovery, huge commitment moves... really struggles to get back to neutral) and an ok advantage game (which is hard to get since neutral is so bad).
In smash if you have strong individual hits and you are hard to kill, then you suddenly become slow, can't combo at all, have horrible frame data, huge frame and combo fodder and a horrible recovery. It's not worth it really. Luckily in smash 4 they got rage effect which is a mechanic done to help heavies I guess.


On palutena, customs do help her because light weight gives her a super strong guaranteed kill option out of down throw, but that's pretty much it, I don't think she becomes that much better with customs on. She can beat characters who have bad rush down if she can succesfully force them to approach.
Having bad tilts isn't the end of the world though, Ness has bad tilts and he's a competent characters. Palutena is mostly aerials / grab / jab. I believe she doesn't have a bad kit, just needs to be stronger overall.

 

[C0rvus]

Guys, Ryu is a good character. I know this isn't news to anyone, but whatever. I feel he is like a better Falco in some ways. A strong fundamentals-based character, but he is better at forcing you to come near him. He wants to play footsies, and his conversion ability is top notch. Like, if you are a character who has choice but to play footsies against him or get hit by fireballs, you are honestly screwed. One wrong move as say, DK, and you're in biiiiiig trouble. (I learned this the hard way. Ouch those up tilts.)

But he falters when his opponent can just ignore him or play footsies in a different way. Robin's ability to play mid-range footsies with Arcfire and beat fireballs with Thoron lets him put up a fight. (I'm pretty sure Elthunder beats regular hadouken, but forget about EX hadou.) Peach's weird floating footsies and item play gives her the ability to force options or apply safe-ish pressure. Characters like Toon Link who can simply put out more projectiles and play keep-away have a shot. But that's just neutral.

His advantage is potentially top tier, between his high damage moves and natural combo ability. Disadvantage isn't too bad between FADC and Shoryuken, among other tools. Definitely not high tier, but he is a strong character who I feel is solid all-around and should not be slept on.

Just thought I would share some thoughts after playing the MU for a while. But I think you guys should keep sleeping on him. It's what Emblem Lord would want.

 

[Illuminose]

iirc MikeKirby has a positive record against Vinnie? idr if it's customs though so it could be fraud idk.

The thing with Kirby vs Sheik is actually really simple. Kirby outpunishes Sheik. Kirby lands a down air, up tilt, what have you and Sheik is taken for a ride because she is a fast faller and Kirby has devastating combos on fast fallers. Sheik can't do that to Kirby because Kirby is light and floaty. Kirby is actually light and floaty to the point where you can't really kill Kirby out of down throw unless the Kirby messes up (i.e. doesn't click jump) or, like, DIs toward Sheik or something dumb. Kirby's ability to crouch and use her multiple jumps to mitigate needle pressure is also a really big deal. It means that Sheik has to take a more aggressive route than simply tossing needles at Kirby. I dare say that the matchup can even be in Kirby's favor if Kirby manages to get needles from inhale, but landing the inhale is super tricky so it'd be absolutely ridiculous to base the matchup off that. Think it's reasonable to call even though.

e: also Palutena is a decent character. The grab buff is pretty cool for her because she actually has pretty effective grab combos, like dthrow -> rar bair/fair and dthrow -> uair kill combo depending on their DI. Back air gives her an invincible spacing tool and kill move. Her dash attack is invincible as well and super strong. She has a powerful spike with a decent hitbox that she can set up for. Her jab has good range and is generally really good. Good recovery and Warp cancels have a ton of potential. Her approaches/spacing tools are actually pretty good. I can't see Palutena as bottom 5, at worst a low mid tier character imo.

 

[Nu~]

If you press a button to challenge any of Palutena's moves (except FAir, DAir, and grab) you lose. If she is able to challenge your moves, you lose.

Her design is pretty self explanatory. She has a counter AND a reflector, 2 invincible moves, and disjoints. She's a turtle. I mean... Her tilts scream turtle. Problem is that turtling doesn't work.

Oh, and she has a projectile to force approaches.

Also, it's an issue when you don't have any good OoS options as a turtle. But I guess she's designed not to shield (buff counter to frame 3 would help a lot. I'd be curious what she'd be like if counter was frame 2).

Well I wouldn't exactly say that autorectical forces approaches...

It's about as good at that as din's fire only instead of spot dodging, you can just walk/run to the side or jump over it.

It's cool for forcing air dodges and making aerial traps (albeit weak ones), but as for making the opponent want to approach...nah.

 

[deepseadiva]

And then... Well, what's the point? What's her draw, her gimmick? Everything she does, somebody else does better.

Every character is a package, and Palutena is somewhat of a unique one.

#1 Invincible bair and dash attack
No one else really has on command invincibility like this, I think? One interesting way to play her is to bait aerials and attacks and just straight up BEAT them. So that's her "thing". But like I said, she's a package that comes with notable things such as:

• free dthrow combos
• fast dash
• the best walk and pivot
• reflector

And also some cons:

• kind of light
• tall
• unimpressive smashes/tilts (slow to start + laggy, and none particularly strong)
• no ground attack faster than frame 8 (imo what kills her)

If you want a very good tall, mobile, character with good grab reward there's Falcon, Zamus, Rosalina... AND all those characters don't have the death sentence of having molasses speed ground attacks.

 

[C0rvus]

• free dthrow combos
• fast dash
• the best walk and pivot
• reflector

For the record, Marth/Lucina have the best walk, and iirc Roy is right behind them. In my opinion, Little Mac and Greninja have the best pivots, but I am ignorant of many characters.

 

[Blobface]

Blobface's Smash 4 Ganon Wall-of-text power hour!
First off, I'd rate almost all of Ganon's moves as top 10 of their class. As in, "boy, a lot of characters would rather have this F-tilt". It's just his jab and his grab are both awful. It's a perfectly fine weakness, but I do think it's overdone a bit, hence the "F6 jab, longer grab" thing. Also Thunderstorm Ganon in Smash 4 would be a top-tier-harbinger-of-death and quite frankly abusive. D-air --> Footstool --> Tipman --> D-air --> Footstool --> Tipman --> F-smash would be a 70%+ true combo that would likely kill.* Buffing Ganondorf's power even more is a no-no as well. I don't have online data or anything, but Ganondorf is already an FFA god, and even in a 1v1 settings too much power can make a battle more about chance than skill.

Secondly, Ganon "needs x amount of reads to kill" is just silly in general. If Ganon reads your getup/tech option out of Flame Choke you'll likely get smashed and die, sure, but he doesn't need reads to transition to his advantage state. He has no safe options to get in, so he will be punished if he messes up, but saying he needs a read to get in is like saying he doesn't have anything unreactable. And that's not even counting how hard he can mindgame you. Reads are used to optimize Ganon's advantage state, not to get into it. If Ganon's neutral was so bad it required a read just to approach, there's no way Vermanubis and Ray_Kalm could consistently take him into top 8 at 50-100 person tournaments (even ones with Ally and Mew2King present). Smashcapps list has clearly shown he's been getting results even when he theoretically shouldn't be. However, I do think Ganon isn't capable of getting top 8 at a national (tbqh Ray_Kalm/Vermanubis could definitely have made top 32 at Evo IMO, but neither could go), simply because of Sheik. A lot of Ganon mains have gotten eliminated, sometimes double eliminated, by Sheiks.

Sheik doesn't invalidate Ganon in the traditional sense where you lose on the character select screen. When fighting Sheik, Ganon will usually get a very small number of openings that can turn the game on it's head. But he needs to make the right read. It's gambling, and Sheik's the house. Sheik is also a very common character at a high level. At a national level this basically means Ganon has to coinflip 3+ times (probably a lot more) to get to top 8.

Lastly, @SpottedCerberus, Sheik will always be a bad matchup for Ganon (just by character design). However, there are ways to make it manageable for Ganon. If F-tilt and F-air were less safe overall and, more importantly, Needles were reworked entirely* to not force approaches at all, Ganon would be 100% viable, even if Sheik got compensatory buffs elsewhere.

*Which makes me bring something else up too. It seems to me that Ganon's D-air is untechable due to it's hitlag. I've tested myself and couldn't tech it, but I just wanted someone else to test it in case I'm crap at teching or something. Can anyone confirm? This could be big for Ganon since he can land footstool --> Tipman out of D-air.

**to be specific, Sheik gets needles from landing attacks, but can't get them any other way, in addition to a few compensatory buffs like comboing better. This means that Sheik can't force approaches anymore, which the safest character in the game shouldn't be able to do period.

And to close this off, Ganon's meta is far from finished. Footstool combos, F-air potentially being safe on shield now, buffered Frame-cancelled aerials, and ledge snap vulnerability punishes (this is a big one. One of the biggest problems Ganon has with Sheik and even ZSS is that their recoveries are so hard to catch) are all areas where Ganon's meta can develop further.

Nobody is truly safe (yet) from the Triforce of Power.
(Gotta be honest though I miss Brawl Ganon's smugness. S4 Ganon is so srs)

 

[ZcK]

You see (well i think you don't) when a character has one strenght, it needs to be awesum.
Ganondorf strenght is his power, combined with the double edge sword that his tall is.
Zelda strenght is her power when she manage to land surgical move
Bowser is overall like ganon
They don't rack damage easily, they are slow, they are quite easy to kill (bowser may be the exception) because each time you read any of there move you know they won't escape the punish and because they lack escape. They look like Annie in LOL, yeah they are scarry but one mistake from them is asking for a huge punish.
But Annie is actually dangerous even if you're full life and well prepared.
An optimal ganondorf need to read you 4 to 5 times in the neutral before killing you, as need zelda and bowser. Because even if they read, they usually won't be able to hit with there strongest move.
To compare it's like if the best gimper of the game had no way to send you offstage bar his smashes.
An optimal sheik will take two stocks in 5 reads. Small reads "he will be on this side of the stage"
An optimal MK will take your three stocks
Seriously, each time a ganondorf kill me i deserved to die at least 3 time. Each time i took the advantage i keep it until he fall to his death.
You ganondorf mains are overrating his power, not because he's weak, but because he's not strong enough. He's not supposed to beat sheik or even go toes to toes with her, but killing a mid weight at the edge of the stage, with a slow telegraphed move on a slow character, at 80, where some smashes on weaker char are as powerful and safer/easier to land and kill; that's not impressive. There should be something else, somewhere in this awful strange data that explain why they are barely stronger than char that have more in everything else. But no, nothing. Enjoy your mediocrity, and if your opponent doesn't respect you like he needs he will eat a smash and die, at least.

I think you a re overrating his weakness

Not racking damage easily is quite a stretch when 2 hits take you to 30 or more, "but he is slow", he autocancels his up air on a short hop, his down tilt well spaced eats shield and is fast enough for him not to be punished and is not that slow that you will see it coming, his neutral air is like frame 7 and doesnt have much landing lag.

He does kills you with a good read, not instantly maybe but if he takes you off stage with such read, an optimal Ganon wont let you back, his aerials are quite fast and last more than enough to trade with some fast recoveries. Now with that said if he doesnt kill you he puts you in a horrible position where any optimal one will kill you.

He is not as punishable as you make him to be, most of his attacks tend to be safe because of the huge knockback and shield damage prompting the opponent not to shield as often and thus limiting the opponent with how he can defend on the ground.

Most importantly , his game as with anyone in this game,IS NOT ABOUT MAKING READS, seriously what can you read anyway most of the time a spotdodge, tech, an airdodge a roll maybe, you are not going to play based purely on what the opponent may do, and if any ganon depended only on such to win if he killed you then you are playing the wrong game.

Anyway reading is player dependant so having a character viability based on that is weird.

 

[Nobie]

That's a hyperbole. Ganon doesn't kill you in 3 good reads, he just gets percent. There's no normal situation where Ganon would kill you in 2 reads when he wouldn't already kill you in that time, unless you ran straight into an up tilt or a smash attack.

I didn't mean "good reads" as in "every time Ganondorf has to make a prediction." Ganondorf's play style is based mainly off of making successful predictions, but when it comes to how hard or risky a read has to be to get damage or even a KO on the opponent, this can vary tremendously. What I mean by a good read is a successful but perhaps difficult read that starts a chain of events that are more likely to lead to big damage.

So if "good reads" meant "reads in general," then yes, 3 would be a hyperbole. But setting up 3 situations for Ganondorf to deal damage and force the opponent into a bad spot that can lead into a KO certainly isn't, when Ganondorf's most practical KO moves include:

F-Tilt
Down-Tilt
F-Smash
Up-Smash
Down-Smash
Fair
Bair
Up Air
Down Air
Wizard's Foot
Dark Fists (if customs are on)
Flame Choke off stage

...which is to say most of his moveset

 

[Yonder]

I consider a 60:40 to be a significant advantage as far as matchup ratios go and based on my experience in the matchup and looking at the characters tools I just don't see a significant enough advantage in Luigi's tools to warrant the matchup being that bad.

It probably looks that way most of the time as Fox vs Luigi takes quite a bit of matchup knowledge on the Fox's part while Luigi on the other hand is generally playing his typical game, which is inherently better albeit a bit exaggerated against fast fallers. However, Fox does have the tools to punish fairly heavily, camp and zone well in this matchup. I just can't see that translating to a significant advantage for Luigi.

As someone who verses a local Fox weekly [He refuses to play the Luigi matchup and switches to Toon Link] and the various matches I've played against Fox, it is probably 60:40 Luigi. Luigi's nair wrecks a lot of Fox's multihit moves such as jab, dair combos. Luigi's crawl lets him bypass Fox's lasers very well, so he doesn't force Luigi to approach as much. Fox is fairly prone to Luigi's u tilt and d throw combos to a higher extent than most. Fox is pretty easy to stuff with a fireball as he side Bs back onto stage and to dair spike as he stays in place during firefox or cyclone gimp. Fox can punish a whiffed Luigi up b and he is harder to D throw to cyclone [I prefer D throw to Up B on Fox]. In the end, I think Luigi's nair just hurts Fox really badly in canning his moveset.I think it is one of Luigi's best high tier matchups along with Diddy.

 

[Ffamran]

For the record, Marth/Lucina have the best walk, and iirc Roy is right behind them. In my opinion, Little Mac and Greninja have the best pivots, but I am ignorant of many characters.

Apparently Roy's walk speed isn't fast, but he might have one of the fastest initial walk speeds. According to Aero's frame data compilation, Roy's walk speed is 1.15 ranking him at 23-25 with Yoshi and Mii Brawler. Marth and Lucina share the best walk (for obvious reasons) at 1.5, followed by Fox at 1.45, Greninja at 1.43, and Sheik and ZSS at 1.4. Sheik bounces around in a cute way... Anyway, it does make sense for Roy to not have a really fast walk since overall, he'd have a fast air speed, fast fall speed, fast dash, and fast walk. Having an average walk speed stops him as it stopped Wolf - slow dash speed in his case - from being insane. Yes, Sonic has a fast everything - walk speed at rank 7 at 1.375 -, but that's his schtick and another fact is that Sonic doesn't hit as hard as Roy if Roy sweet-spots everything.

Source for walk speed: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/WalkSpeed.

 

[san.]

Roy has this weird walk acceleration that makes it really good... for a brief moment.

 

[PK Gaming]

DK vs Robin matchup analyzed on DKwill's stream right now.
http://www.twitch.tv/DKwill

Very cool. It looks like the Robin vs Donkey Kong isn't as open and shut as I thought it was.

In fact, it might end up being even for Robin, which lends credence to my theory that Robin "doesn't really win matchups." Though the upside to this is that I don't that Robin outright hard "loses" matchups either. There's always a chance to win with that crazy damage of his. (Definitely an uphill battle though, haha)

 

[Blobface]

snippity snoo

Ganondorf's moves are mega disjointed, particularly the important ones like D-tilt and Dash Attack. There's a reason a lot of people consider Ganondorf a sword character.

Ganondorf has plenty of combos. D-throw --> U-air being his most reliable one (of course), Dash Attack to U-air, D-tilt to U-air, U-smash to anything you want, D-air to anything you want, Flame Choke to anything you want. Overall, Ganon's moveset flows together really well in advantage. Every attack he has either sets you in a terrible juggle position, sends you offstage, or just kills you outright.

Disadvantage isn't that bad either. He has the usual caveats like big frame, heavy weight, etc., but Ganon's N-air is pretty good at combo breaking, and if they overextend Ganondorf's big bad boots are read to Wizkick them into space. And no, Ganon's recovery isn't that bad. He won't get back for free, but as long as he saves his Double Jump U-air/Airdodge will get him through most edgeguards.
Also, ledgehogging is gone in this game. This is really important to Ganon for... several... "reasons"

 

[Ffamran]

Roy has this weird walk acceleration that makes it really good... for a brief moment.

Hmm... Wrong thread, but is there data on initial walk speeds? I know there's data for initial dash speeds, but I never seen ones for walk speeds. There's stuff like minimum and maximum walk speeds. I'm going to guess that Roy's initial walk speed is like 1.5 then moves onto 1.15. Hmm, now I'm curious about who has the fastest and slowest initial walk speed.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I wasn't referring to any grammatical error. I was referring to the idea that DK, Charizard, and Ganon "need" any changes at all.

Technically speaking, every character "needs" changes to be on par with .

Ur also telling me that ur okay with aerial down b not AC fir DK? In fact it kills him with how much lag it has. Charizard needs changes in terms of increasing the range on nair. Ganon with the insult of inputs on two of his grabs (z and up b) don't need to be addressed? Also, frame 9 jab? Bruh. Maybe frame 5 or 6. He has poor in close game, can't approach and can't stall. Bruh.

 

[LancerStaff]

Problem is that turtling doesn't work.

Um, that's what I was getting at. She doesn't really work.

Every character is a package, and Palutena is somewhat of a unique one.

#1 Invincible bair and dash attack
No one else really has on command invincibility like this, I think? One interesting way to play her is to bait aerials and attacks and just straight up BEAT them. So that's her "thing". But like I said, she's a package that comes with notable things such as:

• free dthrow combos
• fast dash
• the best walk and pivot
• reflector

And also some cons:

• kind of light
• tall
• unimpressive smashes/tilts (slow to start + laggy, and none particularly strong)
• no ground attack faster than frame 8 (imo what kills her)

If you want a very good tall, mobile, character with good grab reward there's Falcon, Zamus, Rosalina... AND all those characters don't have the death sentence of having molasses speed ground attacks.

While complete invincibility isn't common, there's plenty of moves with super armor and transcendence and the like which have much the same effect. It's not a big deal...

 

[san.]

Hmm... Wrong thread, but is there data on initial walk speeds? I know there's data for initial dash speeds, but I never seen ones for walk speeds. There's stuff like minimum and maximum walk speeds. I'm going to guess that Roy's initial walk speed is like 1.5 then moves onto 1.15. Hmm, now I'm curious about who has the fastest and slowest initial walk speed.

Yeah, it's like on the second page of the dash speed thread, too lazy to get it now lol.

 

[Illuminose]

DK is actually fine at this point most likely. He has a solid kit of tools overall with not much to really buff. Unless his nair start-up dropped by like 5-6 frames or something dumb like that, there's nothing I could really see as a significant or truly important buff for DK that makes sense in the context of him as a character right now. He has a relatively fast close quarters option with good range to punish characters in that range (frame 5 jab). His up tilt is a godly anti-air. He can space with bair, which has a ton of range and power AND autocancels. His ftilt is a bit on the slow, but his dtilt is decently fast and has really great range plus can set up for his grab. Edgeguarding game? You've got bair (especially ledge trump bair), dair spike, and a pretty good recovery to get you back. Combos? You have cargo up throw combos including cargo uthrow -> uair which can kill pretty early. Kill throw? DK's back throw is a powerful kill throw. Down B covers the ledge really well and murders shields/punishes rolls. Shield pressure? DK has multiple options that can lead to a broken or severely depleted shield. His recovery isn't bad. He has a poor disadvantaged state and can struggle a bit with effective zoning/projectile users (though some of this can be mitigated by clicking shield). To me though, DK is at the very least a mid tier and more likely a mid high tier character. The recent cargo uthrow buff made his matchups against pretty much the entire cast universally quite a bit better. DKWill sent Mr R's Sheik into losers at Smash Con with Donkey Kong. This is a character with potential and a fantastic set of tools.

 

[Radical Larry]

So how's that Link and Duck Hunt MU going guys? Going good for Duck Hunt?

 

[FullMoon]

I guess harassing chickens wasn't enough for Link.

 

[Nu~]

So how's that Link and Duck Hunt MU going guys? Going good for Duck Hunt?

Whew, just in time!
For a minute there, it felt like this thread was getting too serious

In all seriousness (the irony) though, welcome back dude.

 

[C0rvus]

Well that tears it, Link v Duck Hunt must be 9-1 in Link's favor.

So now we're posting FG matches? Come on.

Real talk, that MU likely isn't very good for Duck Hunt. Link can put out more projectiles and has better disjoint AND has no problem killing. The poor doggie has to... go in? I really don't know. Not a MU I would ever want to play.

 

[PK Gaming]

So how's that Link and Duck Hunt MU going guys? Going good for Duck Hunt?

That's just sad, man

 

[DanGR]

I haven't seen that many down-smashes used successfully in one match since the early days of Brawl Metaknight. Is there a secret AT I don't know about that prevents an opponent from shielding?

 

[Man Li Gi]

DK is actually fine at this point most likely. He has a solid kit of tools overall with not much to really buff. Unless his nair start-up dropped by like 5-6 frames or something dumb like that, there's nothing I could really see as a significant or truly important buff for DK that makes sense in the context of him as a character right now. He has a relatively fast close quarters option with good range to punish characters in that range (frame 5 jab). His up tilt is a godly anti-air. He can space with bair, which has a ton of range and power AND autocancels. His ftilt is a bit on the slow, but his dtilt is decently fast and has really great range plus can set up for his grab. Edgeguarding game? You've got bair (especially ledge trump bair), dair spike, and a pretty good recovery to get you back. Combos? You have cargo up throw combos including cargo uthrow -> uair which can kill pretty early. Kill throw? DK's back throw is a powerful kill throw. Down B covers the ledge really well and murders shields/punishes rolls. Shield pressure? DK has multiple options that can lead to a broken or severely depleted shield. His recovery isn't bad. He has a poor disadvantaged state and can struggle a bit with effective zoning/projectile users (though some of this can be mitigated by clicking shield). To me though, DK is at the very least a mid tier and more likely a mid high tier character. The recent cargo uthrow buff made his matchups against pretty much the entire cast universally quite a bit better. DKWill sent Mr R's Sheik into losers at Smash Con with Donkey Kong. This is a character with potential and a fantastic set of tools.

DK will admitted that Mr. R was playing off his game. I admit that those moves bar dair, are really good and don't have to be touched.....I guess. With the extra lag given to down b, it's almost never safe hit and since it's a quake box hitting a character like Sheik isn't realistic. To me DK is way better at racking percents than any other heavy by a long shot. His problem is killing. Utilt, bair, uair, and b throw are the reliable ones. The thing is, bair is usually stale, uair is stale by cargo chains and has a smaller hitbox, b throw is telegraphed/predictable, and utilt is finicky with its sweetspot killing 35+% before the main hit box. The main hit box is what's usually hit, so.... but yeah. DK is by far great at dealing damage, but not at killing. This the prime reason I go Ganondorf for lucario and Sonic fights. DK doesn't really need a buff outside of reduced lag on things like soft landed up b, and aerial down b. If nair had it landing lag reduced, same with bair, and uair.......oh boy. The startup on nair isn't so bad, but the fact it has just an awful hitbox size.

 

[-RedX-]

I haven't seen that many down-smashes used successfully in one match since the early days of Brawl Metaknight. Is there a secret AT I don't know about that prevents an opponent from shielding?

The classic and only valid excuse on wifi: Lag.
Needless to say, that wasn't a very good Duck Hunt...

 

[Radical Larry]

Okay, let me say this to clear things up:

1) That Duck Hunt player was far better in later and prior matches, and even almost (keyword ALMOST) beat me with Robin many times. Despite it being online, there was almost no lag between either party, and the guy was good with Duck Hunt...so... @ -RedX-

2) D-Smashes are actually quintessential for my Link play due to them being relatively safe on shield, able to give a nice shield poking and even hit opponents in shield. It's not a bad move if you utilize it right. @ DanGR

3) I was barely even trying. @ PK Gaming

4) The video was made for (mostly) comic relief, and yet I believe by certainty that Link still beats Duck Hunt 65:35. Link doesn't have a 90:10 MU against Duck Hunt, because Duck Hunt still has solid KO confirm options on Link, but Link's aerial and ground game, as well as projectile game, surpass that of Duck Hunt's. Again, though, the video was for comic relief. @ C0rvus

5) Speaking of, I actually almost blew a gasket when I saw he was playing Duck Hunt so there was that.

 

[C0rvus]

What KO confirms does Duck Hunt have? Not even just against Link, like, at all? Obviously I don't think it's a 9-1 lol, but it is bad.

 

[Radical Larry]

What KO confirms does Duck Hunt have? Not even just against Link, like, at all? Obviously I don't think it's a 9-1 lol, but it is bad.

F-Smash is definitely something that may get Link, and even F-Air will get him.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Yeah, it'll get Link at 600% after failing twenty times in a row.

 

[DanGR]

2) D-Smashes are actually quintessential for my Link play due to them being relatively safe on shield, able to give a nice shield poking and even hit opponents in shield. It's not a bad move if you utilize it right. @ DanGR

Relatively safe on shield. Relative to what? Warlock Punch?

 

[Man Li Gi]

Dang it @ Radical Larry . I give you a shout out couple pages back and you do this to me? Dude.