Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[oldkingcroz]

Oops- forgot Trela didn't solo-main Shulk. Wasn't there an other big Shulk out there? Can't recall. Either way, Shulk could be thrown into the theorycraft category or some place in between (not like it's a big deal though). Either way, the rest of the bunch has had a decent amount of success (Duck Hunt to a lesser extent, perhaps).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If thru gave shulk a 2-3 frame reduction in some of his moves start up lag, he wouldn't be OP. Just a lot better, like Ike.

Depends on which moves get such buffs. Two or even three less frames of startup can make a big difference if it's in the right spot. You gotta remember that Monado Arts also kind of serve as a multiplier so it's kinda hard to predict what effect a buff will have in the end.

A lot of our regions, UK and spain included, are being super slept on.

France isn't free dude. Germany, France and Spain are pretty good and probably not worse than some of the more competent regions within the USA.

>_<

 

[HFlash]

It's really not. Falcon is practically as good as he was regardless of whether or not his B-Air deals 1% less damage, and few of the biggest winners in the patches have really flown to significantly greater heights.

That for the most part holds true for the top 15 or so, but for characters who have gotten big time buffs, like Marth or Ike, DK, WFT, etc. these characters have probably gone from low/bottom tier to Mid tier. The top 15 I think are going to be considerably easier to rank than the bottom two thirds of the cast, due to the volatility of the viability of these characters from the bi weekly patches.

 

[Tainic]

tbh in the next patch I can see that whole "Top 15 is easy to rank" thing to disappear, there are a lot of characters that just need that one buff to enter Top 15 imo : Marth, Ike, MK for the few people who don't already believe he isnt Top15, or even Lucas and Greninja.

October patch is going to be a mess, calling it.

 

[PUK]

If thru gave shulk a 2-3 frame reduction in some of his moves start up lag, he wouldn't be OP. Just a lot better, like Ike. And Lucas having a better grab wouldn't make him OP either. Maybe a slight reduction in the lag department, and that's all. It's not like I want Buster to do 70% more damage, or Usmash from Lucas come out on frame 1 or anything. Anyone who actually uses these two characters would agree with me.

But you seem to underestimate what ike treatment means.
this is ike treatment
JAB 3
HITS ON : Frame 9 ⇒ Frame 8
FTILT
ENDING LAG : Reduced
DTILT
HITBOX SIZE : 4/4 ⇒ 3.8/3
DAMAGE : 7% ⇒ 8%
ANGLE : 361 ⇒ 80
BASE KNOCKBACK : 50 ⇒ 70
KNOCKBACK GROWTH : 90 ⇒ 70
POSITIONING : Hitbox positions have been tweaked
FAIR
HITBOX SIZE : 4.5 ⇒ 5
GENERAL : Animation is faster, has much earlier autocancel frames, hitbox positions tweaked slightly
DAIR
HITBOX SIZE : 4.8 ⇒ 6
SPIKE HITBOX SIZE : 4.5/5.3 ⇒ 5.5/6.3
BAIR
DAMAGE : 13% ⇒ 14%
COUNTER
BUGFIX : Fixed a bug where using Counter at certain parts of a walk or run animation would propel Ike forward a short distance

• Forward Tilt
  • Start up: 15 → 12 frames
  • Damage reduced: 14% → 12.5%
• Dash Attack
  • Start up reduced 18 → 15 frames
  • Damage 10%/7%/5% → 14%/11%/9%
• Neutral Air Landing lag reduced 16 → 13 frames
• Forward Air
  • Hitboxes follow sword trail (hitting above and below him better)
  • Landing lag reduced 19 → 18 frames
• Quick Draw (Side-B + customs) Start up reduced 19 → 16 frames
• Jab
  • First hit transitions into Second hit 3 frames faster
  • Third hit hitboxes follow sword trail (hitting above him)
• Up Air Landing lag reduced 18 → 15
• Down Air Landing lag reduced 26 → 23 (? 22)
• (1.06) Counter (Down-B) Knockback growth increased 74 → 100

To me it looks like a 7 years old boy's christmas gift list. Give this to anyone already reasonable in strenght. And cry...
It's not just a better move, it's like take a character and make him BIGGER, FASTER, AND STRONGER TOO.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

tbh in the next patch I can see that whole "Top 15 is easy to rank" thing to disappear, there are a lot of characters that just need that one buff to enter Top 15 imo : Marth, Ike, MK for the few people who don't already believe he isnt Top15, or even Lucas and Greninja.

October patch is going to be a mess, calling it.

Every patch is a mess dude

 

[Tainic]

So far the Top 15 has remained fairly untouched, with mostly the same Top 11/12 and the same charas going going for the 12-15 spots tbh. (Only exception is MK.)

 

[LiteralGrill]

So guys, I just wanna ask if we could talk more on Palutena (customs off).

She's still pulling out results (far more so than many characters we talk about) yet she is so consistently ranked near the bottom ten of the cast. I'm just curious what people actually think of her right now, and if anyone has videos of Aeorlink's (or any other strong Palutena players) recent play for folks to look at.

 

[Tainic]

I dunno man imo she's salvageable but they first need to fix her ground game being so weak because aside from her Jab and her Grab she's sooo easily punished, like, man what were they thinking, doing a chara with such frame data ? It's such a shame that they only balanced her around her customs, unlike other charas who were balanced around their default moveset.

 

[Woohoo982]

I think you have never visited the Samus forums, we easily rival marth players in dedicated userbase and development <3

Enjoy the low tier.
No,seriously, why do people consider Samus a low tier character?
I know there are a few people who play her, but I can't remember who. She might be mid-low or top of bottom but for me, bottom 5 is an over exaggeration.(My personal bottom 5 are: (1111))

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Stop. Making. Baseless. Samus. Posts.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think you have never visited the Samus forums, we easily rival marth players in dedicated userbase and development <3

(Also sorry for being weird and quoting from so far behind, takes a while to catch up when one has exams)

Sweet.

Further proving my point actually.

Eat rocks anti-tier sheep. They exist.

So suck it.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Enjoy the low tier.
No,seriously, why do people consider Samus a low tier character?
I know there are a few people who play her, but I can't remember who. She might be mid-low or top of bottom but for me, bottom 5 is an over exaggeration.(My personal bottom 5 are: (1111))

IMO bottom five is customs off, and customs on. Most of his moves are either laggy, don't KO or damage that much, rarely ever hit, or just plain suck.

 

[Antonykun]

(My personal bottom 5 are(1111))

IMO bottom five is customs off, and

99% sure those who say any competitive build of 1.0.7 and beyond Swordfighter is bottom 5 hasn't played him/hasn't watched Trela's Swordfighter
also reason number infinity why i hate tier top number discussions are because of "IMO"

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I am proud to say I am no longer sleeping on swordfighter.

 

[Wintermelon43]

quote="Wintermelon43, post: 19909239, member: 294962"]IMO bottom five is customs off, and

99% sure those who say any competitive build of 1.0.7 and beyond Swordfighter is bottom 5 hasn't played him/hasn't watched Trela's Swordfighter
also reason number infinity why i hate tier top number discussions are because of "IMO"[/quote]
Wow, you're right. Mii Swordfighter is my least used-/enjoyed character, and I've never watched Trela (I don't know where his videos are)

 

[-RedX-]

I think Ike is the only character to have every single attack in his moveset altered by patches.
EDIT: Eruption wasn't touched...yet. Neither was Usmash/Fsmash.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I think Ike is the only character to have every single attack in his moveset altered by patches.

Diddy Kong had almost all of his changed... In the complete opposite direction.

Vanilla specials besides peels and back air are still living though I believe.

 

[Routa]

I think Ike is the only character to have every single attack in his moveset altered by patches.
EDIT: Eruption wasn't touched...yet.

What about pummel?

 

[-RedX-]

What about pummel?

UThrow, Bthrow, and Fthrow were untouched as well. Touche.

 

[Kaladin]

All this this talk of who should get the Ike treatment... No talk of if anyone will. Why did they decided to give Ike, of all people, massive buffs? Perhaps he didn't fit their vision for the character, whatever that may be. Or, perhaps, Ike was a sort of test. There's a definite trend of heavies/bad characters being buffed. They obviously want the heavies/bad characters to be good, but were afraid of upsetting or unbalancing the character archetype. Further, the buffs are getting more significant patch by patch. WFT and Bowser recently got considerable buffs, nothing comparable to the first few patches.

Perhaps I'm just optimistic, but I predict the majority of the Japanese bottom tiers to get Iked over the next few patches.

(By the way, could anyone link me to the most recent Japanese tier list? Thanks.)

 

[Wintermelon43]

Dedede and Samusshould get the Ike treatment next.

 

[Kaladin]

Dedede and Samusshould get the Ike treatment next.

Does Samus really need the Ike treatment, though? I've heard from Samus mains that her combos are insane once she gets in, and that all she needs for viability is less missile lag and a better grab.

Again, just repeating what Samus mains have told me. Could be wrong!

 

[C0rvus]

I would be cautious of buffing Dedede too much. He's got a very strong kit suited to grabs and frame traps, as well as being able to cover tons of options at the ledge. He also takes forever to kill and loves rage. Just give the man a kill throw and a touch more health for Gordos, and maybe shave a couple frames off of f-tilt and he's a very competent character.

Samus would very much benefit from the Ike treatment. Would love to see her become a threat. I miss Melee Samus so much :'(

 

[Blobface]

The most frustrating thing about Samus is that she's so almost good. Seriously, you could make her mid-tier just by fixing all her stupid hitbox/linking nonsense. U-air fails to link (sheik's is identical and it almost never fails), F-air is just goofy, U-smash still doesn't link, F-smash has a hitbox the size of a pool ball, the list goes on.

Dedede would be a lot better automatically if Gordo's just had more health (6? 7? not sure). As is a lot of characters just blow past the ledge trap game he's practically based on.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The most frustrating thing about Samus is that she's so almost good. Seriously, you could make her mid-tier just by fixing all her stupid hitbox/linking nonsense. U-air fails to link (sheik's is identical and it almost never fails), F-air is just goofy, U-smash still doesn't link, F-smash has a hitbox the size of a pool ball, the list goes on.

Dedede would be a lot better automatically if Gordo's just had more health (6? 7? not sure). As is a lot of characters just blow past the ledge trap game he's practically based on.

Samus uair fails to link? You sure about this one?

 

[PUK]

need ike treatment. By that i mean massive buff or/and complete rethink of some of their move (in their purpose)
need to see their strenght slightly strenghted or some of their weaknesses slightly reduced.
Then the metagame will normally be perturbated and we will see if some nerf on or whatever you think is OP is really needed.

 

[meleebrawler]

Samus uair fails to link? You sure about this one?

It has no autolink angles so it can miss (generally when Samus is falling below her opponent), but due to how quick it is it's not a huge issue.

 

[LightLV]

Samus is just an odd character. Like, what is it that she's supposed to be good at? It feels as if Sakurai balanced her around shooting stuff from the edge of the map, but the KBG and properties of all of her projectiles are garbage just like the hitboxes on her other attacks, not to mention that jab...It's as if 'Charge Shot the Character' was taken literally. I mean, if Charge Shot ate rolls and sidestep, did 95% shield damage and charged 60% faster, i'd understand the need for that caesar salad of a moveset she has...

I love Samus and am very torn by the enlightening idea to make her suitless form the one with all the options and mobility. She definitely needs the Ike treatment. At this point i want them to just reskin ZSS, give her the suit model, and make ZSS a color choice. Or just give it the lucina treatment, i dont care.

I would be cautious of buffing Dedede too much. He's got a very strong kit suited to grabs and frame traps, as well as being able to cover tons of options at the ledge. He also takes forever to kill and loves rage. Just give the man a kill throw and a touch more health for Gordos, and maybe shave a couple frames off of f-tilt and he's a very competent character.

Samus would very much benefit from the Ike treatment. Would love to see her become a threat. I miss Melee Samus so much :'(

Dedede is the type of character i would hate to be top-tier. He's pretty aggravating when he's on point.

So guys, I just wanna ask if we could talk more on Palutena (customs off).

She's still pulling out results (far more so than many characters we talk about) yet she is so consistently ranked near the bottom ten of the cast. I'm just curious what people actually think of her right now, and if anyone has videos of Aeorlink's (or any other strong Palutena players) recent play for folks to look at.

At this point, i'm just convinced people don't see too many good ones. The properties on some of her moves are ridiculous and her mobility is pretty crazy. I'd put her near the upper end of mid myself, nowhere below the middle-section.

 

[Mario766]

Ike treatment. The new meme.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

need to see their strenght slightly strenghted or some of their weaknesses slightly reduced.

Legit question, what weaknesses does Link have that need to be reduced at this point? Maybe a very slight buff to his recovery? Seriously, I don't think there's anything wrong with the character at this point that calls for a straight-up buffing.

Ike treatment. The new meme.

... it does sound a bit homosexual, doesn't it?

 

[meleebrawler]

Ike treatment. The new meme.

Samus is bad? Better buff Ike.

 

[LightLV]

better buff Ike.

hueueehuheuheuehuehueheueheuheuhu

 

[Mario766]

Ike needed all those changes. There isn't a character who really needs all these changes compared to the nerfs Ike got from Brawl. Release Ike had no combo starters outside of nair which had more landing lag from Brawl. Down tilt had no spike box and really had no combo potential. Fair had a loudy hitbox, down air lost 10+ frames of hitboxes plus spike box change. Jab lost 5 percent damage and iasa nerf. Dash attack was useless as Ike hsd no grab release combos or f throw combo. These changes are more un-nerfs than buffs besides up air/counter.

 

[warionumbah2]

If your main wears a cape,uses a sword,leader of some group,blue hair/skin the patches will show nothing but love for you.

 

[Blobface]

Ganon really doesn't need any buffs at this point. There's a few luxuries he'd like to have (F6 jab, slightly longer grab range, and the grab on Dark Dive being stronger), but he's in a pretty good position as is. What he really needs is a few top tiers, especially Sheik, to get some changes/nerfs. He's a perfectly functional character with too many bad top tier matchups.

 

[DunnoBro]

Why do they call it dark dive, he's just coming up for a little hug. Has like zero knockback, if you want to be a jerk and hurt his feelings you can just punish him afterward.

 

[adom4]

Why do they call it dark dive, he's just coming up for a little hug. Has like zero knockback, if you want to be a jerk and hurt his feelings you can just punish him afterward.

The only good thing about that move is the uppercut, the grab needs much more knockback (i don't know if melee levels but at least somewhere close).

Spoiler

I'm still amazed they managed to make an Up-B worse than dark dive for him

 

[Blobface]

The only good thing about that move is the uppercut, the grab needs much more knockback (i don't know if melee levels but at least somewhere close).

Spoiler

I'm still amazed they managed to make an Up-B worse than dark dive for him

It did 17% in Melee and it does 11% now. You could probably just tack on 6% to the final hit and it would be perfectly fine.

 

[PUK]

Ganon really doesn't need any buffs at this point. There's a few luxuries he'd like to have (F6 jab, slightly longer grab range, and the grab on Dark Dive being stronger), but he's in a pretty good position as is. What he really needs is a few top tiers, especially Sheik, to get some changes/nerfs. He's a perfectly functional character with too many bad top tier matchups.

No i play multiples match against ganon. I made mistakes, not a lot but more than 3. I didn't die, and i never play heavy character.
He is supposed to hit like if you run into a truck, but the truck seems to be stoped.
He doesn't kill like he's supposed to, and how he's supposed to come back, or punish semi safe move on shield? He's Bair is weak, his ftilt and dtilt are weak, his fair need the hardest read and depending of your stage position you may live, his downB his useless most of the time and his side B doesn't guarented follow up on ton of character.
Same with link, you may be playing the character, but i see him as an opponent. What can you do if i come in your face and never let you space. What the purpose of his bomb, his bommerang, why his tilt are this slow? Why i feel like he has many weaknesses, that his strenghts don't balance.

When you look at ROB you see balance, when you look at Marcina and roy, or megaman you see a form of balance.
When you look at ganondorf and others you have the impression sakurai totally underate their strenghts or the crippleness of their weaknesses.