Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[migul]

@bc I feel like grninja has Mobutu and combos, but maybe not the same degree as the top. Still great but has to work harder

@Smog? Sonic has a harder time accelerating at close range which is why I think he fits somewhere else

Again I dont necessarily think
(Not ordered)
wont have people between them, but they just fit in the grouping of what's relevant.
-----------------------------
In regards to pika, I personally think he beats sheik and is the best character in the game, but I'm not gonna argue that here bc I'm currently unwilling to release my full reasoning for this. I think it's ok to think pika is in the range of 50:50 or 40:60, but 40:60 is an outer ratio.

As for records, the MU isn't played often. At low level it doesn't seem too bad, a local pika in SoCal was able to take a set from k9 (anecdotal I know). Higher up we mostly have MM info . ESAM went 3-1 in sets vs rain and beat mr R in a set at Evo. He went 1-1 in sets with antis sheik. He did lose to zex, but that was when sheik bair was a kill move ( non-trivial difference for this MU). ESAM did as well as nairo vs zero at CEO, and of course had the closest set zeros ever had at ssc, and apparently his set vs nakat with pika earlier was the second closest. But the one thing we shouldn't all forget is that time nakat used his week old pika and beat mr r, lol. Mr r has also stated since almost the beginning pika is sheiks hardest MU besides per patch diddy

Also pika has better mobility then sheik and a better ground game. His faster run-stop, better initial dash, better/longer/faster tilts and smashes, and very small frame.

Not trying to give a ratio but just giving some stuff in favor of pika

Re sheik dominance she might be more popular then per patch diddy but she's also less successful.


Thats the point of this thread though, excluding the snark.

Pikachu does not have better mobility than Sheik if you don't take QA into account. Her dash is faster, she falls faster, and she has a better air speed. QA shenanigans are QA shenanigans tho

 

[Cassio]

Pikachu has a better initial dash which is more important then max speed. But yeah sheik def seems to have more control in the air.

Edit: I also meant to say ground mobility.

I posted this a few pages back but here's the top rank initial dashes.

Fox -2.4
Little Mac - 2.05
Falco - 1.9
Samus - 1.86
Pikachu - 1.8
Lucario - 1.8
MK - 1.75
1.7-------
C. Falcon
ZSS
Sheik
Diddy Kong
1.6---------
Greninja
Brawler
Donkey Kong
Mario
D Mario
Pacman
Bowser Jr
Gunner
Zelda

 

[bc1910]

You forget that the "sudden" surge of top 3 Pika isn't really news when most of us had him at #4 or 5 before Smash con.

Pika has been in my top 5 for as long as I can remember, usually at #4, but I've taken Sonic out completely hence Pika moves up.

This is more of a long standing thing you disagree with than people suddenly hailing Pikachu as a top tier. Speaking for myself at least.

I can at least agree that the evidence he goes even with Sheik is flimsy, but I find it hard to explain his lack of ESAM-less results. He seems amazing. Without a safe reactive punishment tool (frame 3 lingering Nair) or, hell, Hydro Pump, what can you really do about Quick Attack? Genuinely asking. At the right spacing isn't it p. much safe on powershield?

 

[DunnoBro]

Pika's too fair vs other top tiers to be top 5.

I can't see a character having a 65-35 MU vs a popular, easy character like Luigi as top 5 while also only having... okay MUs against the top 3.

My top 5 is Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Luigi, and Ness. Each character mostly bodies everyone beneath them and only loses hard to higher ranked chars.

Pika loses to or goes even with these chars. He doesn't beat any of them except MAYBE ZSS though not by too much.

 

[TriTails]

Hmm, I think Luigi is probably the most anti-meta character in the game right now. Like Shaya said he beats a lot of the characters that many place in their top 5, but at the same time he has a good number of bad MUs with non-top tiers.

If other good characters like Greninja, Pac-Man, Toon Link and Megaman were more widely used (I think all those beat Luigi?), then he would be a lot less successful, right now Luigi is thriving on the fact that a good number of the characters he loses to aren't present enough to stop him from getting results.

If we did make a tier list based solely on MU spread, then sure, Luigi is a bit underwhelming compared to most other top tiers. When we look at the current meta and the characters that thriving like the five Shaya mentioned though, while at the same time most of Luigi's "counters" show up irregularly for one reason or another, we see that the current meta is just being very kind to Luigi.

IDK. Those MUs are pretty manageable from theory view (And practice for MM and frog. Dunno about Pac).

What I meant to say though. Beating top tiers are more important than beating high tiers and below. Simply because top tiers are common picks for tourneys. Say, Greninja, Pac, MM and just pop out of nowhere. I would say it's fine due to those characters MUs don't really go over 40:60 (Maybe not Pac, but IDK). Meanwhile, having an advantage against Fox is HUGE. Advantage on Mario is big. Advantage on Pika and Sonic (?) are huge. Advantage against Diddy is huge.

He gets beaten by Sheik? Sure. But... who doesn't? At best, they go even, but who beats her? Almost every of the cast lose to her save for evenish MUs for some but yeah.

But well, I'm still fidgety on putting him in Top 10, due to his bad MUs are probably will be getting worse if the respective characters kept on getting buffs (Yo Greninja), and he DOES lose to Sheik, ZSS, and Rosa.

It's hard to predict where he ends up. But I'll just act like I main a mid tier character so I can finally stop getting mad at those 'Luigi is overrated' bandwagon.

 

[Cassio]

I don't think pika loses to luigi much less has a 65:35. I mean I get that people think that, I could reasonably see him having a slight losing mu. Personally I think ESAM is unfamiliar with the MU but can anyone explain to me how luigi doesn't get owned by pika in the neutral?

 

[migul]

Pika's too fair vs other top tiers to be top 5.

I can't see a character having a 65-35 MU vs a popular, easy character like Luigi as top 5 while also only having... okay MUs against the top 3.

My top 5 is Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Luigi, and Ness. Each character mostly bodies everyone beneath them and only loses hard to higher ranked chars.

Pika loses to or goes even with these chars. He doesn't beat any of them except MAYBE ZSS though not by too much.

Pika beats Rosa. Dabuz lost to Esam at Ceo, and Xaltis has a losing record against Esam.
@ Cassio because Pika can't abuse Luigi's **** tier traction.

 

[Pyr]

I don't think pika loses to luigi much less has a 65:35. I mean I get that people think that, I could reasonably see him having a slight losing mu. Personally I think ESAM is unfamiliar with the MU but can anyone explain to me how luigi doesn't get owned by pika in the neutral?

Most immediate thought that comes to mind is that every read QA will lead to the 6% hit of Nair, which leads to (low% - utilt) > uair > strong hit of Bair/Fair for up to 39% damage. Approach option becomes a lot more risky. That, and Pika is particularly easy to kill with D-Throw > Up-B/Down-B. The fat mouse dies at, like, 80ish with Up-B out of D-Throw, and the target you want to aim for is easy to hit, making following DI simple.

A patient, wally Pikachu might even the matchup, though. IIRC Auto-Canceled Pika Fair is hard to punish if done retreating, and sends Luigi away a decent amount. That, and Pika edge-guarding Luigi should be trivial, since the angle of his Neutral-B in the air, B-Reversed Down-B, and his aerial kit make it hard for Luigi to come back.

Really, I think people overrate Luigi in this matchup. If it has to be in Luigi's favor, like if the Pikachu decides to be really aggressive, it'd be 60:40 in favor of Luigi.

Main bias ayyyyyyyyy.

Cliff-notes version. It's a fun matchup that goes kinda deep, but I don't have the time to go uber-deep into it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Pika's too fair vs other top tiers to be top 5.

I can't see a character having a 65-35 MU vs a popular, easy character like Luigi as top 5 while also only having... okay MUs against the top 3.

My top 5 is Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Luigi, and Ness. Each character mostly bodies everyone beneath them and only loses hard to higher ranked chars.

Pika loses to or goes even with these chars. He doesn't beat any of them except MAYBE ZSS though not by too much.

Rosalina doesn't beat pikachu it's one of her worst MU alongside sheik and ZSS. Rosa also losed to MK. Then she also has difficult MUs that she may lose like Wario and Marth. The Falcon MU is pretty difficult. Also dabuz thinks she loses to MM. Unfortunately rosalina isn't as gdlk as ppl claim and has serious weaknesses when compared to other top tiers.

Also I don't think Luma's utilt is good. It's probably one of Rosa's least used moves.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Pika's too fair vs other top tiers to be top 5.

I can't see a character having a 65-35 MU vs a popular, easy character like Luigi as top 5 while also only having... okay MUs against the top 3.

My top 5 is Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Luigi, and Ness. Each character mostly bodies everyone beneath them and only loses hard to higher ranked chars.

Pika loses to or goes even with these chars. He doesn't beat any of them except MAYBE ZSS though not by too much.

That doesn't describe Luigi at all. He loses hard to several characters beneath him, but does well against the top tier in general, except for Sheik. (Positive match-ups against Diddy, Pikachu, Fox, Mario, etc. Negative match-ups against Mega Man, Pac-man, Villager, etc.)

 

[TriTails]

For anyone who finds my post a bit ambiguous, I meant having advantage against X means a lot rather than Luigi having a huge advantage on the MU.

EDIT: And also, I can't think of a MU where Luigi loses 'hard' except for maybe Sheik.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's possibly a double standard, but *pick random perceived solo viable character*
Do they lose to Sheik? Bar ZSS, Diddy, Sonic and Fox, no one else can claim they do not right now (imo).
Do they lose to Luigi?
My name is Diddy. So yes.
My name is Fox. So yes.
My name is Pikachu, so yes/yes.
My name is Sonic, so maybe and maybe (leaning yes).
My name is Rosalina, maybe leaning no and no. But my match ups aren't necessarily good everywhere else though
Hi, my name is Luigi, I like long slides on the beach and I'm losing to Sheik just like everyone else is apparently, but destroy a long list of characters.

Luigi's "hard match ups" aren't being seen in tournament frequently. But those characters who could do find themselves getting buffs in the patch cycle though.

His worst matchup is the most frequent tournament character in high and top level play. I don't know why your post just skips over this fact. Like I already said, if you lose to Sheik -2 or higher then you are not viable. Luigi loses to Sheik -2 or higher and therefore he's not viable. Let's not make it more complicated than it has to be.

DDD at one point in Brawl also had avantages over Snake, Marth and Wario while going close to even with Diddy Kong. He'd also invalidate [yes, I said that] pretty much the entire high to mid tier borderline line-up that consists of ROB, Wolf, Toon Link ... you name it. If you add up all the +3s and +4s this character has you'd have like the 3rd best MU spread after MK and ICs. Character still wasn't viable. He could've gone even with ICs, beat Falco, do well against Olimar and have a chance of beating Pikachu for all I care ... still wouldn't be a viable character and you know the reason why.

I'm surprised that you of all people are falling for this with regards to Luigi.

 

[TriTails]

His worst matchup is the most frequent tournament character in high and top level play. I don't know why your post just skips over this fact. Like I already said, if you lose to Sheik -2 or higher then you are not viable. Luigi loses to Sheik -2 or higher and therefore he's not viable. Let's not make it more complicated than it has to be.

DDD at one point in Brawl also had avantages over Snake, Marth and Wario while going close to even with Diddy Kong. He'd also invalidate [yes, I said that] pretty much the entire high to mid tier borderline line-up that consists of ROB, Wolf, Toon Link ... you name it. If you add up all the +3s and +4s this character has you'd have like the 3rd best MU spread after MK and ICs. Character still wasn't viable. He could've gone even with ICs, beat Falco, do well against Olimar and have a chance of beating Pikachu for all I care ... still wouldn't be a viable character and you know the reason why.

I'm surprised that you of all people are falling for this with regards to Luigi.

Depends on the -2. If it's 60:40 then it's kinda an overexaggeration. If it's 65:35 or higher then maybe.

 

[Cassio]

The case for Mario and luigi rests on
-results outside nationals
-combo's, an already important attribute is even more important then we thought even without strong mobility or spacing tools.

It's a fair argument, and it's easy to understand this perspective esp when you fight luigi. Combo intensive characters are probably among the most demoralizing.

My argument against it is the trend isn't there. Mobile characters are on the rise and slower characters are having to work harder to place higher, or being outright excluded in top results.

I think its especially fair if we focus on the here and now to say that mario and luigi are threatening. But I think it's also fair to say the trend we already see signs of is working against them.

 

[DunnoBro]

Pika beats Rosa. Dabuz lost to Esam at Ceo, and Xaltis has a losing record against Esam.
@ Cassio because Pika can't abuse Luigi's **** tier traction.

It can't just be ESAM is the better player?

Players beating players doesn't mean characters beat characters.

 

[Cassio]

Aside from results it's a pretty common agreement between Rosas and pikas that pika wins the MU. Tl; dr Hard to hit and wall out.

 

[Teshie U]

What exactly does Rosalina do against projectiles that have significantly less lag than Gravitational Pull?

It seems to be that her being such a large target and luma being unable to shield would make her lose neutral against anyone that can quickly fling projectiles and punish gravitational on reaction.

This is assuming the projectile actually poses a threat to a healthy luma.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

What exactly does Rosalina do against projectiles that have significantly less lag than Gravitational Pull?

It seems to be that her being such a large target and luma being unable to shield would make her lose neutral against anyone that can quickly fling projectiles and punish gravitational on reaction.

This is assuming the projectile actually poses a threat to a healthy luma.

You can jab or dtilt them...depending on the projectile though.

It can't just be ESAM is the better player?

Players beating players doesn't mean characters beat characters.

How large do you think the gap between dabuz and esam is?

 

[DunnoBro]

You can jab or dtilt them...depending on the projectile though.


How large do you think the gap between dabuz and esam is?

I was fishing for an explanation as to why the MU is bad for Rosa rather than just citing out specific match rundowns.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Depends on the -2. If it's 60:40 then it's kinda an overexaggeration. If it's 65:35 or higher then maybe.

The point is that Luigi cannot be expected to stand a chance to Sheik in high and top level play and that's where his [and many other characters'] viability comes to an end. Whether you translate -2 as "40/60" or "35/65" is of no consequence.

 

[Shaya]

His worst matchup is the most frequent tournament character in high and top level play. I don't know why your post just skips over this fact. Like I already said, if you lose to Sheik -2 or higher then you are not viable. Luigi loses to Sheik -2 or higher and therefore he's not viable. Let's not make it more complicated than it has to be.

DDD at one point in Brawl also had avantages over Snake, Marth and Wario while going close to even with Diddy Kong. He'd also invalidate [yes, I said that] pretty much the entire high to mid tier borderline line-up that consists of ROB, Wolf, Toon Link ... you name it. If you add up all the +3s and +4s this character has you'd have like the 3rd best MU spread after MK and ICs. Character still wasn't viable. He could've gone even with ICs, beat Falco, do well against Olimar and have a chance of beating Pikachu for all I care ... still wouldn't be a viable character and you know the reason why.

I'm surprised that you of all people are falling for this with regards to Luigi.

Most of high tier losing to Sheik solidly seems pretty much a given is the entirety of the point. Luigi having it (although I'm not sure how many of these traveling Luigis have been taken out by sheiks at major tournaments) slightly worse [or more] than them.
What you made bold was in reference to these apparent mid-tiers that he loses to (Greninja, Megaman, etc)

I'm not falling for anything and I explicitly stated (in other posts that you missed??) that it could be similar but also explaining a bit of why Luigi is different.
Dedede started at third and to be quite honest it would've been silly not to put him at a high spot (his tournament results were 2nd/3rd/4th best for many of the early months) considering the points you just made, and he didn't perform at any major either (beyond a secondary?) either.
Mew2King may have been at fault a little as he mained him early on.

The time-old argument of whether a character with such a large impact on half the cast (and this time, those impacted seem to be mostly all the high tiers bar the Super Bash Sisters [Sheik,ZSS,Rosa] triumvirate) should be rated below everyone else.
My position with Dedede was always that he should be the bottom of high tier, as in, he definitively was the gatekeeper character who beat 80% or more of those below him disgustingly hard. The eventual 'top of mid tier in it's own niche' was kinda pushing it but sufficed as a middle-ground I suppose.
I earnestly believe Luigi currently shouldn't be considered "shoe in for d3 2.0" without there being wide-spread confidence he's conquered, and it's way too early/silly to try to speculate how much the meta will revolve away from his strengths like D3 did in brawl (i.e. lightweight characters were 'top tier' more often; there is no specific trait a character has that Luigi loses to).

 

[Ghostbone]

If we're judging character's viabilty solely by their ability to stand up to Sheik then I guess Sheik/ZSS/MK are the only viable characters.

Luigi doesn't actually do any worse than other top tiers vs Sheik and he's advantaged vs them all.

 

[Smog Frog]

i'm skeptical that beats . explain please

@ above: dont forget about . he has one of the best mus among the cast.

 

[Teshie U]

You can jab or dtilt them...depending on the projectile though.



How large do you think the gap between dabuz and esam is?

I might be oversimplifying what it takes to out camp Rosalina, but what characters easily pump out projectiles that have low cool down AND aren't easily beaten by jab/tilts.

I can only think of a handful characters that really fall into this category though. Mewtwo, Mii Gunner and the Links. Maybe Lucas/Ryu?

Megaman and Villager probably get around needing priority by stacking up projectiles so well.

I actually wonder how Greninja and Robin do in this area with endlag reduces on their projectiles in 1.10.


edit: I too am unconvinced that speedy characters like Sonic and Diddy lose to Luigi if they really lame it out.

 

[Wintermelon43]

If we're judging character's viabilty solely by their ability to stand up to Sheik then I guess Sheik/ZSS/MK are the only viable characters.

Luigi doesn't actually do any worse than other top tiers vs Sheik and he's advantaged vs them all.

Kirby has an even matchup, which is better than MK

 

[Ghostbone]

i'm skeptical that beats . explain please

@ above: dont forget about . he has one of the best mus among the cast.

Fireballs and fair zone sonic pretty hard.

And yea he's pretty good vs Sheik, don't know how I forgot him.

Kirby has an even matchup, which is better than MK

If this was true people would actually play Kirby and Kirby would place well.
The level of theory crafting involved to put Kirby even with Sheik is ridiculous, there's no reason to believe it since there's no evidence.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I was fishing for an explanation as to why the MU is bad for Rosa rather than just citing out specific match rundowns.

Ah I see well pikachu has the advantage because mobility edgeuarding and he wins the neutral vs Rosalina. Tjolt is pretty difficult for Rosalina to deal with Gravitational pull is rather useless in this MU. So you havevto either jab or dtilt them. All of pikachu's aerials present a problem for her. Dair seperates luma and is pretty safe. Fair does the same thing I believe. Uair juggles rosa and I don't luma can interrupt her juggle strings. Bair and nair are good edgeguards vs her. If done correctly all of her aerials auto cancel. Sage pressure a lot of mobility and being edgehuarded really hard is what makes the MU a pain. Kinda like the sheik MU.

 

[K3H]

It's actually been awhile that he plays Greninja, but he used to play PacMan and Falcon in his serious matches. I think he felt like he need to find something against ZSS as she becomes more and more popular in France. But his choices created some other vocation, so we have now 3 greninja (mostly secondaries though) in our scene.
French tier list should look like this now




We don't believe in Fox

Could you provide some matches with Shulk?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Fireballs and fair zone sonic pretty hard.

And yea he's pretty good vs Sheik, don't know how I forgot him.


If this was true people would actually play Kirby and Kirby would place well.
The level of theory crafting involved to put Kirby even with Sheik is ridiculous, there's no reason to believe it since there's no evidence.

So because there's no results in characters, they have worse matchups, which is all theorycraft? no. Almost everyone on these forums believe the matchup is even.

 

[Smog Frog]

i dont believe is even with

and results should only be used to confirm theory. example: i earnestly held the sentiment that was an overrated character that you could beat with solid fundamentals. only 1 main in evo top 32 sorta verified my belief, along with the fact that he was only taking locals. he's a very strong counterpick character, which you could say was verified by larry forcing esam off of with him, so he'll always have a very distinct, very defined niche as a easy to pick up counterpick character.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If we're judging character's viabilty solely by their ability to stand up to Sheik then I guess Sheik/ZSS/MK are the only viable characters.

Like I said earlier - Sheik, ZSS, Fox, Pikachu, Diddy, maybe Ness, maybe Sonic [depending on how Sonic players perform vs ZSS in the future] are the solo-viable aka top tier characters. Everybody else either loses to Sheik by too much or doesn't stand much of a chance to ZSS/Fox/Pikachu.

 

[Ghostbone]

So because there's no results in characters, they have worse matchups, which is all theorycraft? no. Almost everyone on these forums believe the matchup is even.

Everyone on these forums = theorycrafters on the kirby boards?
If you polled this thread I'm pretty sure most would say Kirby loses to MK.
But that doesn't even matter, what the majority thinks doesn't prove whether the matchup is even or not. Fact is that Kirby is a bad character and there's no evidence that he does dis-proportionally well vs Sheik for any reason

Like I said earlier - Sheik, ZSS, Fox, Pikachu, Diddy, maybe Ness, maybe Sonic [depending on how Sonic players perform vs ZSS in the future] are the solo-viable aka top tier characters. Everybody else either loses to Sheik by too much or doesn't stand much of a chance to ZSS/Fox/Pikachu.

I don't think ness does any better vs Sheik than luigi, she's one of the best at carrying him off-stage and abusing his recovery.
Plus Rosa probably prevents him from being viable on her own.

 

[Teshie U]

Why isn't Kirby high tier? I've only ever heard that he is slow, but it doesnt seem to be stopping luigi. He has powerful KO moves, is annoying small, has alot of quick moves and his combos are just crazy at times.

 

[Smog Frog]

he doesnt have fireballs, that simple

 

[PUK]

And his recovery is awful, like anyone with a standard aerial can just gimp him or kill him. He is as free as LM offstage.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think Kirby is a bad character at all anymore, specially after the buffs he received in the last patch. His matchup against Sheik, while surely disadvantaged, is most likely a manageable one. How does Kirby deal with ZSS, Yoshi and Sonic though? Those matchups look awful.

I don't think ness does any better vs Sheik than luigi, she's one of the best at carrying him off-stage and abusing his recovery.
Plus Rosa probably prevents him from being viable on her own.

I dunno, dabuz is adamant on Ness vs Rosie not being actually that bad. I'm not entirely sure where he's coming from because I don't know a whole lot about the matchup but he's always been pretty level-headed about his character and he has a lot of experience in the matchup, having played Nakat, Shaky and Fow. So I'm more inclined to trust him when he says the matchup is 6/4 for Rosie than when some random theorycrafter claims it's a hard counter.

Also, Ness having as hard a time against Sheik as Luigi does? You sure? I don't think any Luigi has ever beaten a good Sheik or even come close to it. Ness does have a couple of wins that are worth noticing though. I can't be that bad.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Everyone on these forums = theorycrafters on the kirby boards?
If you polled this thread I'm pretty sure most would say Kirby loses to MK.
But that doesn't even matter, what the majority thinks doesn't prove whether the matchup is even or not. Fact is that Kirby is a bad character and there's no evidence that he does dis-proportionally well vs Sheik for any reason


I don't think ness does any better vs Sheik than luigi, she's one of the best at carrying him off-stage and abusing his recovery.
Plus Rosa probably prevents him from being viable on her own.

I mean the Sheik matchup's even, I know Kirby loses to Meta Knight

(Most of the people on the Kirby forums says it's in Kirby's favor, really, but I say it's in Meta Knight's)

I don't think Kirby is a bad character at all anymore, specially after the buffs he received in the last patch. His matchup against Sheik, while surely disadvantaged, is most likely a manageable one. How does Kirby deal with ZSS, Yoshi and Sonic though? Those matchups look awful.



I dunno, dabuz is adamant on Ness vs Rosie not being actually that bad. I'm not entirely sure where he's coming from because I don't know a whole lot about the matchup but he's always been pretty level-headed about his character and he has a lot of experience in the matchup, having played Nakat, Shaky and Fow. So I'm more inclined to trust him when he says the matchup is 6/4 for Rosie than when some random theorycrafter claims it's a hard counter.

Also, Ness having as hard a time against Sheik as Luigi does? You sure? I don't think any Luigi has ever beaten a good Sheik or even come close to it. Ness does have a couple of wins that are worth noticing though. I can't be that bad.

We can crouch under a lot of ZSS's moveset. Yoshi is really bad, and Sonic is 40:60 (Although it's more of a hard matchup than a bad matchup)

Edit:Accidentatly posted

 

[TriTails]

Also, Ness having as hard a time against Sheik as Luigi does? You sure? I don't think any Luigi has ever beaten a good Sheik or even come close to it. Ness does have a couple of wins that are worth noticing though. I can't be that bad.

Hi J. Miller vs cyve.
Hi Mr. CC vs ZeRo by taking ZeRo's first stock while his own was like 60% (Seriously now).

And those were pre-patch.

i'm skeptical that beats . explain please

@ above: dont forget about . he has one of the best mus among the cast.

Fireballs stop Spin Dash. Even then, it messes with Sonic's mobility.
We hit harder and faster than you.
We can kinda gimp you with JC + D-air.
We kill you earlier.
We have more % gained everytime we get in. All Luigis need to watch is just that Spring Jump can get out of double chop.

 

[Teshie U]

Hitting harder than Sonic and having a move beat spindash is hardly unique to luigi. Almost everyone does that stuff. Sonic just runs around until you did the right thing at the wrong time and picks away at you.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So the best examples you can come up with are two non-top level players from Europe having had a close set more than half a year ago [which may have included cyve using Diddy as well?] and CC doing well during one stock against Zero?

Color me unconvinced, entirely.