Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Balgorxz]

characters with more than one combo throw?
charizard can dthrow to fair and other moves
charizard can also uthrow buffer jump to flare blitz at some percentages, massive damage might kill but if you screw the buffer you might kill yourself if you are close to the blastzone.

 

[Shaya]

how many times has ESAM met sheik in tournament?

Would help us know about this MU, especially if the games were all close

His region has Raven, solid Sheik. Apparently does well on occasions he's fought them.
Zex 2-0ing ESAM pre-apex (old, I know). Has lost to ZeRo multiple times, it's at least 3-0?
I don't know if Vinnie or Ramin have played ESAM in bracket yet.

Didn't know MUs were easy to figure out.

Then tournament results would just be random. Also one's ability to say "X is top 5" would be based on ... nothing?

I will say that it's possible Pikachu is top 3. I'll never outright deny such things in ambiguous cases.
But this notion of top 3 right now seems to only be a fair statement for consistent results. And honestly, no characters have had results like Sheik, ZSS and Rosa (Rosa being propped up by apparent ability to hold back Ness, Luigi, Pika? etc).
This recent result has given me the following indications:
1. Pika vs ZSS is probably harder than I tout.
2. Pika probably could be put in "top tier" and/or argue for top 5 over the likes of Rosa, Sonic, Fox, Meta Knight and maybe Mario/Luigi.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Gets a little something too.

Rage affects the knockback of both water spouts and fire spouts. The field either turns into an ice rink or a minefield where you can die at 120% in the middle of the stage.

Rage keys and DITCIT cherries -> Inky/Bair are no joke either.

He doesn't get the most, but what he does get out of rage is pretty interesting.

Wow. Didn't know that. There's so many intricacies in Pac-Man's playstyle.

 

[Trifroze]

Pika has the second best matchup spread in the game, including going even with Sheik. Quick attack is the best move in the game. Those things alone make Pika top 3.

How many of Pikachu's matchups have actually been played on a high level enough times to build something you can call a matchup spread? Same goes for any character. Let's face it, most of the stuff we're all doing on character boards is largely theory and placeholder information until we see or learn more, and in the case of many characters most of that "more" will never happen. Moreover we sometimes see individual players give their opinion of their character's matchup spread, and while they have more experience than other players do, the posts rarely come with any specific explanations and should not be taken as anything else than a rough opinion of one person who may or may not have an agenda or two behind it all.

I'd also leave "best move in the game" claims for a time when I have actually experienced the game. No doubt QA is useful for mobility and quick low risk damage but what else does it really do? Despite low risk it's still readable and punishable, and to an extent you can also react to it because of its slow startup. It's also something that will become easier to deal with as time goes on.

Out of interest, what are generally Pikachu's perceived weaknesses? I presume these matchup spreads take poor range, lack of safety on shield, light weight, average mobility (bar QA) and below average killing potential into account. Pikachu has kill setups for sure, just most other top tiers have more reliable ones which is why you see Pikachu flop as often as you see him do really well.

Shulk is a good character but no one knows how to use him
- still optimistic shuk mains, 2014

 

[⑨ball]

Hmm, I think Luigi is probably the most anti-meta character in the game right now. Like Shaya said he beats a lot of the characters that many place in their top 5, but at the same time he has a good number of bad MUs with non-top tiers.

If other good characters like Greninja, Pac-Man, Toon Link and Megaman were more widely used (I think all those beat Luigi?), then he would be a lot less successful, right now Luigi is thriving on the fact that a good number of the characters he loses to aren't present enough to stop him from getting results.

If we did make a tier list based solely on MU spread, then sure, Luigi is a bit underwhelming compared to most other top tiers. When we look at the current meta and the characters that thriving like the five Shaya mentioned though, while at the same time most of Luigi's "counters" show up irregularly for one reason or another, we see that the current meta is just being very kind to Luigi.

I've been thinking about the meta and the vacuum-esque effect matchups have on the tier list and am both excited and terrified how good Marth is getting.

It's essentially Marth's absence from the top that's allowed characters like Mario and Ness to flourish where he kept them out in previous games (although grab release shenanigans helped).

We also see players like False putting interest into the Prince which could garner flavor-of-the-week waves.

#marthcounterssheik

 

[FullMoon]

Huh, now that I think about it rage probably must affect Hydro Pump a lot too.

Greninja benefits from rage even more than I thought.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

There were no Luigis in the finals of evo and smash con, results seem to indicate he's struggling for some reason. Either people are learning to deal with it better or the fact that he was just nerfed has made all of his matchups noticeably harder, or both. We'll see how he fares in the future.

Also the double standard is real. Why does Luigi get to be a top tier when he is so easily counterpicked he can't go solo? There was just like two pages of people saying if you can't go solo or deal with sheik you're unviable, full stop. Luigi can do neither of these things.

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit's another character who benefits with rage. His weight is above average, but his recovery is one of the best in the game. Since he's pretty floaty he'll die off the top quicker, but horizontally he lives forever since his gravity is basically an auto DI towards the corners. His biggest problem is getting KOs... Which quickly becomes no problem with rage on his aerials and Fthrow.

Huh, now that I think about it rage probably must affect Hydro Pump a lot too.

Greninja benefits from rage even more than I thought.

That doesn't really make sense though... Rage is a KB multiplier. Unless somebody knows for sure I'm about ready to boot up the Wii U and test.

 

[FullMoon]

That doesn't really make sense though... Rage is a KB multiplier. Unless somebody knows for sure I'm about ready to boot up the Wii U and test.

Hydro Pump does knockback though, what do you think determines how strong is a windbox's push? lol

 

[LancerStaff]

Hydro Pump does knockback though, what do you think determines how strong is a windbox's push? lol

I always thought knockback referred to the distance the opponent travels in hitstun.

Pretty sure a windbox's size and how close to the center you were determined the strength. Or in Pit's case for sure, having multiple windboxes layered on top of each other.

 

[Shaya]

There were no Luigis in the finals of evo and smash con, results seem to indicate he's struggling for some reason. Either people are learning to deal with it better or the fact that he was just nerfed is had made all of his matchups noticeably harder, or both.

Also the double standard is real. Why does Luigi get to be a top tier when he is so easily counterpicked he can't go solo? There was just like two pages of people saying if you can't go solo or deal with sheik you're unviable, full stop. Luigi can do neither of these things.

If he was so easily counterpicked he wouldn't have good local/regional results like he does, no?
And yes, people are learning to deal with him better, at least arguably in a similar way that's happening with Rosalina.

Honestly, Top Tier seems to really only fit the likes of Sheik. Maybe Sonic, Diddy, ZSS (going by varied regional opinions/results).
Otherwise it's just a big fat high tier, or top-tier minor, because there are many characters which can claim high tier "power level" right now [Ike, etc] it's hard to place them on the same level as the one's we know are "high tier".

It's possibly a double standard, but *pick random perceived solo viable character*
Do they lose to Sheik? Bar ZSS, Diddy, Sonic and Fox, no one else can claim they do not right now (imo).
Do they lose to Luigi?
My name is Diddy. So yes.
My name is Fox. So yes.
My name is Pikachu, so yes/yes.
My name is Sonic, so maybe and maybe (leaning yes).
My name is Rosalina, maybe leaning no and no. But my match ups aren't necessarily good everywhere else though
Hi, my name is Luigi, I like long slides on the beach and I'm losing to Sheik just like everyone else is apparently, but destroy a long list of characters.

Luigi's "hard match ups" aren't being seen in tournament frequently. But those characters who could do find themselves getting buffs in the patch cycle though.

If someone were to make a tier list in the most "logical" fashion right now, it would be hard to put Luigi in a different tier to the characters we're seeing with similar result spreads and perception of "strong match ups".
However, fireball nerf may be enough to really show that he isn't on that pedestal I'm implying. But not enough time has passed in my opinion to know it's certain (his results aren't worse than pre-patch from what I see?).

 

[FullMoon]

I always thought knockback referred to the distance the opponent travels in hitstun.

Pretty sure a windbox's size and how close to the center you were determined the strength. Or in Pit's case for sure, having multiple windboxes layered on top of each other.

That makes sense until you start wondering how did they nerf Hydro Pump in 1.0.4 without changing any of that.

 

[LancerStaff]

That makes sense until you start wondering how did they nerf Hydro Pump in 1.0.4 without changing any of that.

It could just be that it's similar to Pit's where there's multiple windboxes and one was removed, or the ones that are there were moved/shrunk to where they can't be used to their best.

Kurogane doesn't list any KB for Guardian Orbitars either way.

 

[DanGR]

What representation is Palutena getting in the customs off meta? I don't know of anyone aside from Aerolink's custom Palutena that would support her placement in "Borderline."

 

[Vipermoon]

Hydro Pump (first hit)
Frame 1- 2: 2% 65b/100g (KO@ 514%) 58° 2.0-Hitlag Water Push
Max Damage: 2%

Hydro Pump (second hit)
Frame 1- 2: 2% 65b/100g (KO@ 514%) 58° 2.0-Hitlag Water Push
Max Damage: 2%

http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

 

[FullMoon]

It could just be that it's similar to Pit's where there's multiple windboxes and one was removed, or the ones that are there were moved/shrunk to where they can't be used to their best.

Kurogane doesn't list any KB for Guardian Orbitars either way.

It does for FLUUD, Hydrant and Hydro Pump though.

Point is, the windbox power is determined by knockback and so they get benefits from rage. Out of the three water moves above, Pac-Man's hydrant has the highest KBG (135) and Hydro Pump has the highest BKB (65).

Even pre-patch Hydro Pump doesn't have as much KBG as the hydrant's water, it used to be 130, it's 100 now.

Man Hydro Pump was so ridiculous back then.

 

[Shaya]

AeroLink is still maining Palutena in customs off tournaments I believe and is doing alright.
V115, arguably second or third best NA ZSS is somehow finding himself fighting 1111 palutena in grand finals often.
My region had an originally custom-maining Palu switch to 1111 (while they were still legal) with better results otherwise.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

His region has Raven, solid Sheik. Apparently does well on occasions he's fought them.
Zex 2-0ing ESAM pre-apex (old, I know). Has lost to ZeRo multiple times, it's at least 3-0?
I don't know if Vinnie or Ramin have played ESAM in bracket yet.



Then tournament results would just be random. Also one's ability to say "X is top 5" would be based on ... nothing?

I will say that it's possible Pikachu is top 3. I'll never outright deny such things in ambiguous cases.
But this notion of top 3 right now seems to only be a fair statement for consistent results. And honestly, no characters have had results like Sheik, ZSS and Rosa (Rosa being propped up by apparent ability to hold back Ness, Luigi, Pika? etc).
This recent result has given me the following indications:
1. Pika vs ZSS is probably harder than I tout.
2. Pika probably could be put in "top tier" and/or argue for top 5 over the likes of Rosa, Sonic, Fox, Meta Knight and maybe Mario/Luigi.

Rosa doesn't hold back pikachu. Even though a MU is trending in a characters favor hia tourney results doesn't mean the MU is in that characters favor. Pika will probably break through sooner or later.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

If he was so easily counterpicked he wouldn't have good local/regional results like he does, no?
And yes, people are learning to deal with him better, at least arguably in a similar way that's happening with Rosalina.

Honestly, Top Tier seems to really only fit the likes of Sheik. Maybe Sonic, Diddy, ZSS (going by varied regional opinions/results).
Otherwise it's just a big fat high tier, or top-tier minor, because there's a lot of characters can claim high tier "power level" right now [Ike, etc] it's hard to place them on the same level as the one's we know are "high tier".

It's possibly a double standard, but *pick random perceived solo viable character*
Do they lose to Sheik? Bar ZSS, Diddy, Sonic and Fox, no one else can claim they do not right now (imo).
Do they lose to Luigi?
My name is Diddy. So yes.
My name is Fox. So yes.
My name is Pikachu, so yes/yes.
My name is Luigi, I'm losing to Sheik just like everyone else is apparently, but destroy a long list of characters.

Luigi's "hard match ups" aren't being seen in tournament frequently. But those characters who could do find themselves getting buffs in the patch cycle though.

Obviously i can't speak for everyone but as far as I can tell just looking at my locals, he's struggling on that level as well. As a Diddy main I used to loathe the character. Now I just go with the newly buffed greninja for that matchup and he loses hard. A lot of people are doing this for Luigi. A lot of characters can deal with him, seeing as he just got nerfed and most other characters are getting buffed, and there's this anti Luigi hype going on and everyone's learning up.

I concede that he's probably the best counterpick character in the game for the matchups he does win. I have a pocket Luigi myself. But counterpick characters don't get to be top tier. He doesn't have the near bulletproof spread of a top tier.

Again it's hard to say exactly where he'll end up but theory and results are starting to both go against him being top. Solid high tier is better IMO, at least for right now.

Also I thought locals didn't matter as much for this discussion, because any character can win when theres less competition and all that.

 

[LancerStaff]

It does for FLUUD, Hydrant and Hydro Pump though.

Point is, the windbox power is determined by knockback and so they get benefits from rage. Out of the three water moves above, Pac-Man's hydrant has the highest KBG (135) and Hydro Pump has the highest BKB (65).

Even pre-patch Hydro Pump doesn't have as much KBG as the hydrant's water, it used to be 130, it's 100 now.

Man Hydro Pump was so ridiculous back then.

Didn't know that.

Ugh. Why are GOs so weird...

 

[FullMoon]

On another note, looking at Shaya's Smogon tier list...

Overused

Behold, the only time you're ever going to see Pikachu in OU.

also Greninja is not in Ubers what sorcery is this.

 

[Shaya]

Oh, on that point kinda...
Sheik now has more "representation" than pre-patch Diddy ever did.
Diddy's plummeted really, now sitting in what seems to be a good spot along the other "Ubers".

I suppose Diddy's 3 or so months of being no.1 would be less impactful than Sheik being no.1 for 8 months or so [total] thus far.
Suddenly feel like Season 1 League of Legends; "why the **** hasn't corki (#1 ADC for almost a year) been gutted yet?

I should maybe sit down and have a look to see if these Sheiks are all just new players or are just diddy switch overs, lol.

WHERE ARE THEY NOW?
"after the terrible diddy kong nerf of 20XV, young and hopeful BananaBoat studied to become a Doctor,
he is now popping pills on ******* all across the globe, has a fashion label for capes, coats and dungarees, is an acclaimed artist and formed the most successful charity for endangered animals in the 21st century.

When asked about their past and what spearheaded them into this bountiful future;
I'm not sure Larry, but seeing all those bananas go too ripe and rotten without tripping people and the innumerable amount of monkey's fall from the treeline to their deaths really deeply affected me, I still remember their screams

He's recently started a fresh campaign to have needles taken off the streets due to their high effectiveness at spreading disease among desperate win-junkies"

 

[Djent]

Pika having the second best match up spread in the game is EXTREMELY rich.
Sheik vs Pika results are HEAVILY in Sheik's favour. Actually, honestly, the amount of sets Pikachu has taken off top sheiks? I'm aware of zero, zilch, nil, nada, NONE. So yeah, definitely even with Sheik

results are indicative in one direction as well.

FWIW ESAM is positive against Manny, but otherwise results favor these characters as you've said.

 

[migul]

On another note, looking at Shaya's Smogon tier list...



Behold, the only time you're ever going to see Pikachu in OU.

also Greninja is not in Ubers what sorcery is this.

Charizard ain't OU either.
Make zard's d special dragon dance.

 

[Illuminose]

How does Sheik beat Pikachu 60:40? You need to back that up because practically every Sheik and good Pikachu main seems to understand that it's an even matchup yet you're claiming that Sheik solidly wins @ Shaya . bs

 

[Minordeth]

Going back to terrible edge-guarding across the meta, I really believe that as we go along, characters with semi-stationary recoveries, or recoveries without hitboxes, are going to drop. I know we can't base a characters viability solely on recovery (Hi, Little Mac), but as people actually gravitate away from frame 1 lottery edge guards, or just standing there, life will be hard for the Ness/Fox/Falco/etc players.

I see games only getting harder for Ness, in particular, as soon as people get to Zero and Nairo levels of edge guard aggression. Why let him get back for free? Jump down there! I swear, I really only see Ganon players (or Falco players, now) go for broke on edge guarding.

 

[Ikes]

someone mind explaining this **** to me?

 

[Teshie U]

Oh, on that point kinda...
Sheik now has more "representation" than pre-patch Diddy ever did.
Diddy's plummeted really, now sitting in what seems to be a good spot along the other "Ubers".

I suppose Diddy's 3 or so months of being no.1 would be less impactful than Sheik being no.1 for 8 months or so [total] thus far.
Suddenly feel like Season 1 League of Legends; "why the **** hasn't corki (#1 ADC for almost a year) been gutted yet?

I should maybe sit down and have a look to see if these Sheiks are all just new players or are just diddy switch overs, lol.

WHERE ARE THEY NOW?
"after the terrible diddy kong nerf of 20XV, young and hopeful BananaBoat studied to become a Doctor,
he is now popping pills on ******* all across the globe, has a fashion label for capes, coats and dungarees, is an acclaimed artist and formed the most successful charity for endangered animals in the 21st century.

When asked about their past and what spearheaded them into this bountiful future;
I'm not sure Larry, but seeing all those bananas go too ripe and rotten without tripping people and the innumerable amount of monkey's fall from the treeline to their deaths really deeply affected me, I still remember their screams

He's recently started a fresh campaign to have needles taken off the streets due to their high effectiveness at spreading disease among desperate win-junkies"

So many fraud Diddy players jumped ship when dthrow upair couldn't carry them through bracket anymore. He is still maybe top2 in the game, definitely top 5 and viable. But it really is astounding how many people stopped using Diddy when he wasn't extremely easy anymore.

I could see the same thing happening if sheik fair stopped linking into itself. If her fair became a kill move instead of a combo move, alot of sheiks would probably vanish overnight.

Same if Falcon's dash grab was actually normal.

edit: rage increases knockback, charging a smash increases knockback taken if you are hit while charging, luma uptilt is stupid high in back knockback for some reason, also looks like no DI or intentionally bad DI

 

[TheReflexWonder]

someone mind explaining this **** to me?

Luma U-Tilt has very high base knockback, and when you're charging a Smash, a multiplier is added to knockback if you're hit.

 

[Spinosaurus]

someone mind explaining this **** to me?

Luma's base KB on Utilt + Rage + charging smash attack making Bowser receive more knockback

EDIT:

 

[Ikes]

does Wario's chomp stop quick attack?

Luma's base KB on Utilt + Rage + charging smash attack making Bowser receive more knockback

EDIT:

that is pretty damn BS if you ask me. no way you should be able to even attack when your shield is broken.

 

[Shaya]

How does Sheik beat Pikachu 60:40? You need to back that up because practically every Sheik and good Pikachu main seems to understand that it's an even matchup yet you're claiming that Sheik solidly wins @ Shaya . bs

I'm pretty sure prior to last weekend I wouldn't have heard a peep out of more than Cassio or ESAM from the prospect of "Sheik beats Pikachu solidly". We've been talking about Pikachu as one of the focal characters here in this thread since the beginning and not a single person here has argued Sheik doesn't beat Pika since the last time (there has been nothing to indicate otherwise either until that ONE set). So when the only top player of a character has no real Sheik wins, and there are no other known Pikachus who aren't losing to all sorts of characters including Sheik, it's really hard to solidly claim the character is actually good at all. ESAM has had better results in Brawl with a character seen as scraping top 10 than he has in a game where people believe he's top 3 and goes even/beats everyone; there were more Pika's with results in Brawl too (from day #1 as well).


Sure he may have some massive skill ceiling to compete. Or we have one of the best Smash players PERIOD playing a character he's mained for over half a decade at top level getting a bracket that avoided all his prior kryptonite. Also bar ZeRo, top placements at tournaments are almost random (excepting Nairo's consistent 2nd or 3rd places).

 

[Teshie U]

But Luma's shield isn't broken.

People did this in Melee/Brawl with ice climbers. You break one shield, the other one flails around until they can fight together again.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

What representation is Palutena getting in the customs off meta? I don't know of anyone aside from Aerolink's custom Palutena that would support her placement in "Borderline."

In addition to what Shaya said, there's also IceNinja. He's from Toronto and he generally does well at locals and nationals.

I believe Big D and Ryo still use her but I'm not sure. They've won local tournaments with her in the past tho.

 

[migul]

I'm pretty sure prior to last weekend I wouldn't have heard a peep out of more than Cassio or ESAM from the prospect of "Sheik beats Pikachu solidly". We've been talking about Pikachu as one of the focal characters here in this thread since the beginning and not a single person here has argued Sheik doesn't beat Pika since the last time (there has been nothing to indicate otherwise either until that ONE set). So when the only top player of a character has no real Sheik wins, and there are no other known Pikachus who aren't losing to all sorts of characters including Sheik, it's really hard to solidly claim the character is actually good at all. ESAM has had better results in Brawl with a character seen as scraping top 10 than he has in a game where people believe he's top 3 and goes even/beats everyone; there were more Pika's with results in Brawl too (from day #1 as well).


Sure he may have some massive skill ceiling to compete. Or we have one of the best Smash players PERIOD playing a character he's mained for over half a decade at top level getting a bracket that avoided all his prior kryptonite. Also bar ZeRo, top placements at tournaments are almost random (with Nairo's consistent 2nd or 3rd places).

I remember an ESAM post saying Sheik was an even matchup. I also remember Master Raven saying it was evenish too, in the old thread. Esam made that post in late April. This opinion is kinda old theory.

 

[Minordeth]

ESAM is one of the best players in Smash in the last 10 years. It's hard to disentangle his results from his character choice. Yeah, it looks like Pikachu can do some crazy things, but we have no point of reference to see how good the character actually is. We can look at Mr. R, Void, and Vinny and use them as a larger sample against Zero to see why the character succeeds across multiple samples/play styles.

Right now we have Esam as the only pro-level Pikachu. Is Pikachu an above average character with superior representation, or is he a superior character? I don't think there is enough evidence outside of ESAM to say Pikachu is one of the top 3. Trela, for instance, can make any character look Pro-level, doesn't mean they are. Juries out.

FTR, I don't think he goes even with Sheik. ESAM just picked up on some of Sheik's (and Zero's) weaknesses in that one set and exploited them. I don't know if those exploits are Pika specific, though, because we have this one set as an example.

 

[Shaya]

Why I think the match up isn't "good" for Pikachu:

Sheik has better range, mobility, frame data and camping/zoning game. Pikachu has up air, up tilt, down tilt, QA as solid moves he can use to keep up with those aforementioned facts.
Pikachu tends to do better against characters which he can exploit their recoveries off stage. Sheik's recovery is fair to say as top 5, maybe even the best. It's still a small factor to the MU but not as large as it is for others.
Pikachu tends to do better in match ups where his size stifles the opponent's options or ease of "out buttoning him". Sheik's ground game hits grounded pikachu reliably, as well as large array of options on crouching Pikachu too. Sheik's rising aerials can hit standing pikachu as well, and her landing aerial options are the best and Pika can struggle to really capitalize on this. I know some theory here to rectify this: crouching means fair can't hit him on the rise, sheik's in the air long enough for his roll to be roughly on parity with it (but in reality, sheik's shff is faster and she can easily land with bair).

QA looked really good.
Then ZeRo started nairing as he jumped, landed, or on reaction otherwise.
Suddenly QA looked kinda worthless in contrast to the pressure it provided in the first set.

The main factor to what evens up the match up between the two is kill power/ability. Pika doesn't have a harder time to kill than Sheik, and heck, it was crazy to see thunder's off the top getting him matches/stocks (something that was what people used to complain about ESAM with in Brawl [including his compatriots] "if he didn't get all those cheap thunder kills as often as he did..."), but it didn't happen much in the second set.

And voila, how I paint the match up poorly for Pika.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

someone mind explaining this **** to me?

Sure. The Bowser player either seriously lacked match-up experience or he intentionally set up the situation to make Rosa look over-powered. I assume the answer is the latter, because nobody would be that stupid. Why would you even bother charging a smash attack when one of the lightest character in the game is so high into KO percents? A simple f-smash would seal the deal.

As for why the attack KO'd, it's a mostly combination of rage and the knockback multiplier from being hit while charging a smash attack. Add the high base knockback on top of that, and you have a KO. The move isn't ridiculous in itself; it's just the circumstances. You shouldn't be allowing Rosa to get max rage, you should be aware that Luma can act during shield breaks, and you shouldn't be recklessly charging smash attacks. There's another video out there where Peach OHKOs someone with her up-b. And more examples with other moves.

that is pretty damn BS if you ask me. no way you should be able to even attack when your shield is broken.

Luma has no shield. You can still attack him when Rosa is shielding.

 

[Cassio]

@bc I feel like greninja has mobility and combos, but maybe not the same degree as the top. Still great but has to work harder

@Smog? Sonic has a harder time accelerating at close range which is why I think he fits somewhere else

Again I dont necessarily think
(Not ordered)
wont have people between them, but they just fit in the grouping of what's relevant.
-----------------------------
In regards to pika, I personally think he beats sheik and is the best character in the game, but I'm not gonna argue that here bc I'm currently unwilling to release my full reasoning for this. I think it's ok to think pika is in the range of 50:50 or 40:60, but 40:60 is an outer ratio.

As for records, the MU isn't played often. At low level it doesn't seem too bad, a local pika in SoCal was able to take a set from k9 (anecdotal I know). Higher up we mostly have MM info . ESAM went 3-1 in sets vs rain and beat mr R in a set at Evo. He went 1-1 in sets with antis sheik. He did lose to zex, but that was when sheik bair was a kill move ( non-trivial difference for this MU). ESAM did as well as nairo vs zero at CEO, and of course had the closest set zeros ever had at ssc, and apparently his set vs nakat with pika earlier was the second closest. But the one thing we shouldn't all forget is that time nakat used his week old pika and beat mr r, lol. Mr r has also stated since almost the beginning pika is sheiks hardest MU besides pre patch diddy

Also pika has better ground mobility then sheik and a better ground game. His faster run-stop, better initial dash, better/longer/faster tilts and smashes, QA, and very small frame.

Not trying to give a ratio but just giving some stuff in favor of pika

Re sheik dominance she might be more popular then per patch diddy but she's also less successful.

Yay lets argue whether unviable trash A is better then unviable trash B

Zelda/Samus are both pretty bad.

Thats the point of this thread though, excluding the snark.

 

[Teshie U]

The way luma uptilt is designed actually is kind of absurd.