Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Lavani]

On top of the short distance covered by Rosalina's pp, the way Luma moves tends to make it only useful for a retreating pp jab(/utilt?). Luma ends up behind Rosalina if you pp forward, shorting the range on attacks.

I guess there are some cute gimmicks with Luma movement you can do with it too,

but they aren't really practical.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

If it didn't hurt my thumb to do I'd learn Perfect Pivots all day. Shulk would love that stuff if I could master it.

 

[Trifroze]

I believe this is what you're looking for: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-air-speed-rankings-and-values-now-with-raw-real-values.383217/#post-18656263

That's aerial speed, what I'm looking for is acceleration and deceleration stats i.e. how fast a character can start moving from forward to backward in the air or vice-versa.

 

[Ghostbone]

Perfect pivots are too situational to be of much use. (lol that sheik combo vid that works on no DI fastfallers that are inside of you doesn't count)

One of the only applications that I've noticed is covering a ledge/tech roll a certain way, but it's not like you can't cover ledge roll with a billion other options soooo

 

[Aunt Jemima]

That's aerial speed, what I'm looking for is acceleration and deceleration stats i.e. how fast a character can start moving from forward to backward in the air or vice-versa.

Scroll down? There's a chart detailing everything at the bottom of the page.

 

[Vipermoon]

I never understood the Marth and Lucina differences with Utilt.

Lucina slides with PP Utilt. Marth doesn't. Marth slides by spamming Utilt. Lucina doesn't.

 

[A_Kae]

That's aerial speed, what I'm looking for is acceleration and deceleration stats i.e. how fast a character can start moving from forward to backward in the air or vice-versa.

Accel and deccel are there as well, it's the last post on the first page. My link seems to not point to the correct post. Sorry.

Quoted for simplicity:

Hello.

ID|Char|Air Accel?|Air Deccel?|Airspeed|F23|Gravity?|Fall Speed?|Vert Friction?|Fastfall Speed?
0|Mii Brawler|0.058|0.01|1.2|0.015|0.1|1.7|0.015|2.72
1|Mii Swordfighter|0.04|0.01|0.96|0.0038|0.096|1.6|0.0038|2.56
2|Mii Gunner|0.07|0.01|1.05|0.01|0.08715|1.45|0.015|2.32
3|Mario|0.07|0.01|1.15|0.015|0.08715|1.5|0.015|2.4
4|Donkey Kong|0.05|0.01|1.15|0.015|0.08505|1.63|0.015|2.608
5|Link|0.04|0.01|0.88|0.0038|0.096|1.6|0.0038|3.04
6|Samus|0.05|0.04|0.95|0.0075|0.075|1.25|0.0075|2
7|Yoshi|0.068|0.03|1.28|0.005|0.08|1.29|0.00975|2.064
8|Kirby|0.065|0.03|0.8|0.015|0.06405|1.23|0.015|1.968
9|Fox|0.08|0.01|0.96|0.015|0.19|2.05|0.015|3.28
10|Pikachu|0.09|0.01|0.9118|0.0075|0.095|1.55|0.0075|2.48
11|Luigi|0.075|0|0.73418|0.0075|0.075|1.25|0.0075|2
12|Captain Falcon|0.065|0.01|1.1|0.0075|0.12|1.837|0.0075|2.9392
13|Ness|0.09|0.01|0.9588|0.0225|0.077|1.31|0.0225|2.096
14|Peach|0.1|0.01|0.95|0.01|0.068|1.15|0.01|1.84
15|Bowser|0.04|0.01|0.98|0.0075|0.11|1.39|0.0075|2.224
16|Zelda|0.055|0.01|1.04|0.006|0.071|1.35|0.006|2.16
17|Sheik|0.08|0.01|1.1|0.015|0.15|1.75|0.03|2.8
18|Marth|0.07|0.01|1.02|0.00375|0.075|1.58|0.00375|2.528
19|Mr. Game & Watch|0.03|0.07|1.12|0.012|0.08|1.24|0.012|1.984
20|Ganondorf|0.03|0.01|0.79|0.015|0.10784|1.65|0.015|2.64
21|Falco|0.07|0.01|0.893|0.01|0.13|1.8|0.013|2.88
22|Wario|0.08|0.04|1.21|0.04|0.092|1.61|0.006|2.576
23|Meta Knight|0.065|0.01|0.99|0.012|0.11|1.66|0.015|2.656
24|Pit|0.065|0.01|0.89|0.008|0.081|1.48|0.008|2.368
25|Zero Suit Samus|0.085|0.01|1.2|0.008|0.12|1.7|0.5|2.72
26|Olimar|0.07|0.01|0.82|0.015|0.068|1.35|0.015|2.16
27|Diddy Kong|0.05|0|0.88|0.008|0.105|1.75|0.016|2.8
28|King Dedede|0.04|0.01|0.658|0.006|0.08788|1.95|0.006|3.12
29|Ike|0.04|0.01|1.08|0.009|0.092|1.65|0.009|2.64
30|Lucario|0.07|0|1.01|0.005|0.084|1.56|0.005|2.496
31|R.O.B.|0.045|0.04|1.08|0.015|0.09|1.6|0.02|2.56
32|Toon Link|0.08|0.01|0.94|0.01|0.079|1.28|0.01|2.048
33|Charizard|0.05|0.01|0.87|0.008|0.11|1.4|0.008|2.24
34|Sonic|0.04|0.01|1.15|0.01|0.09|1.45|0.01|2.32
35|Jigglypuff|0.08|0.05|1.269|0.0375|0.05309|0.98|0.0375|1.568
36|Dr. Mario|0.07|0.01|1.15|0.015|0.08715|1.5|0.015|2.4
37|Lucina|0.07|0.01|1.02|0.00375|0.075|1.58|0.00375|2.528
38|Dark Pit|0.065|0.01|0.89|0.008|0.081|1.48|0.008|2.368
39|Rosalina|0.1|0.01|1|0.01|0.062|1.2|0.01|1.92
40|Wii Fit Trainer|0.08|0.01|0.97|0.01|0.09|1.3|0.01|2.08
41|Little Mac|0.028|0.01|1|0.0075|0.08|1.8|0.0075|2.88
42|Villager|0.05|0.01|0.94|0.01|0.078|1.32|0.01|2.112
43|Palutena|0.1|0.01|0.91|0.01|0.105|1.4|0.01|2.24
44|Robin|0.07|0.01|1|0.007|0.089|1.5|0.00375|2.4
45|Duck Hunt|0.07|0.01|1.1|0.015|0.076|1.65|0.015|2.64
46|Bowser Jr.|0.07|0.01|1.08|0.015|0.092|1.65|0.015|2.64
47|Shulk|0.04|0.01|1.06|0.009|0.085|1.5|0.009|2.4
48|Greninja|0.07|0.01|1.18|0.015|0.18|1.85|0.015|2.96
49|Pac-Man|0.07|0.01|1.04|0.015|0.072|1.35|0.015|2.16
50|Mega Man|0.1|0.01|1.1|0.05|0.1071|1.8|0.01|2.88
51|Giga Bowser|0.025|0.02|1.22|0.008|0.198|2.5|0.0075|4
52|Wario-Man|0.3|0.04|1.69|0.08|0.1071|2.2|0.006|3.08
53|Giga Mac|0.04|0.01|1.7|0.015|0.12|2.2|0.0075|3.52
54|Mega Lucario|0.07|0|1.04|0.005|0.084|1.56|0.005|2.496
55|???|0.07|0.01|1.15|0.015|0.09|1.7|0.015|2.72
56|???|0.04|0.01|0.9|0.004|0.096|1.6|0.0038|2.56
57|???|0.07|0.01|1.15|0.015|0.087|1.45|0.015|2.32

I don't know what F23 is, but it's related to horizontal airspeed somehow because it's one of the hooks for Glider/Antiglide equipment.

 

[Trifroze]

Scroll down? There's a chart detailing everything at the bottom of the page.

My bad, I'm used to data always being in the opening post so I didn't even bother checking.

 

[Illuminose]

Perfect pivots are too situational to be of much use. (lol that sheik combo vid that works on no DI fastfallers that are inside of you doesn't count)

No, a lot of that stuff is legit no matter how you DI and those combos work on most characters, except floaties who you have to combo differently regardless.

Perfect pivots are useful to space yourself, for movement out of a foxtrot, to invade your opponent's zone with something like a Fox perfect pivot utilt or perfect pivot smash attack, and to combo. They're not difficult if you practice them -- it's like learning any type of tech skill. Implementing them into play/combos can be difficult and takes time which is why perfect pivot stuff isn't widespread in the metagame.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Okay, last thing. eSAM has a video detailing perfect pivots for Pikachu, go watch it.

https://youtu.be/XXM0O5PXbQ4

Should be noted he uses perfect pivots to invade Sheik's space.

 

[Trifroze]

Tier list time, aerial "weaving in and out" tiers that is:

Everyone not specified has 0.01 deceleration in the air, others are specified and the rest of every score is acceleration. For example having 0.05 acceleration and 0.04 deceleration is better than having 0.08 acceleration and 0.01 deceleration because both are used equally for switching your direction, although I'm not exactly sure of the "optimal ratio" for that. Aerial speed isn't taken into account in any way.

S tier

Jigglypuff: 0.13 (0.05 decel)
Wario: 0.12 (0.04 decel)

A tier

Mr. Game & Watch: 0.1 (0.07 decel)
Yoshi: 0.098 (0.03 decel)
Kirby: 0.095 (0.03 decel)
Samus: 0.09 (0.04 decel)
Mega Man: 0.11
Palutena: 0.11
Peach: 0.11
Rosalina: 0.11

B tier

Ness: 0.1
Pikachu: 0.1
Zero Suit Samus: 0.095
R.O.B.: 0.85 (0.04 decel)
Fox: 0.09
Sheik: 0.09
Toon Link: 0.09
Wii Fit Trainer: 0.09

C tier

Bowser Jr: 0.08
Duck Hunt Duo: 0.08
Falco: 0.08
Greninja: 0.08
Marios: 0.08
Marths: 0.08
Mii Gunner: 0.08
Olimar: 0.08
Pac-Man: 0.08
Robin: 0.08
Captain Falcon: 0.075
Meta Knight: 0.075
Pits: 0.075

D tier

Mii Brawler: 0.068
Luigi: 0.075 (0 decel)
Zelda: 0.65
Lucario: 0.07 (0 decel)
Charizard: 0.06
Donkey Kong: 0.06
Bowser: 0.05
Ike: 0.05
Mii Swordfighter: 0.05
King Dedede: 0.05
Link: 0.05
Shulk: 0.05
Sonic: 0.05

E tier

Diddy kong: 0.05 (0 decel)
Ganondorf: 0.04
Little Mac: 0.038

rip DLC character info, although Ryu is pretty clearly at least F tier

 

[FullMoon]

Huh, Greninja's better than I thought.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Kirby's a lot better than I thought, the heck. Kirby isn't allowed to be in the Top 5 of anything.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

E Tier
Diddy kong: 0.05 (0 decel)

AHA! So THIS was his weakness in 1.0!

 

[Shaya]

It's what constrains his forward air spacing at the very least.
It's kinda noticeable when you play him.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

It's what constrains his forward air spacing at the very least.
Was kinda notable when playing him at least.

Huh. Well I think what really makes up for it is the amazing-ness of his Fair, his good airspeed, and the ability to popgun reverse cancel in the air. He may not be able to weave back and forth but that's okay. He doesn't need to.

 

[Vipermoon]

People say characters like Shulk, DK, and Ike have great air speed but acceleration is more important and they just don't have it.

 

[Nu~]

Geeze sonic's is awful lol. Top 5 in mobility all around huh?
Doesn't really matter when he runs as fast as pacman's key

Pac-Man's is pretty good. I like this.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

People say characters like Shulk, DK, and Ike have great air speed but acceleration is more important and they just don't have it.

Air speed is pretty important as well. You need both aspects ideally. Top acceleration doesn't mean squat if the top speed is laughable.

I'm just impressed Robin isn't in bottom 5 for a mobility category.

 

[Ffamran]

People say characters like Shulk, DK, and Ike have great air speed but acceleration is more important and they just don't have it.

Well, Trifroze's list has Falco in C-tier, but he is slow. It's a combination since having good air speed and air control leads to stuff like Yoshi, Rosalina, Mega Man, and Mr. Game & Watch being able to move freely and quickly in the air. At the same time, having good air speed means if Sonic, Ike, Shulk, DK, and Roy? commit, they're going to shoot towards you like a rocket. Now, having good air control, but bad air speed isn't all that great since you can choose where you want to go, but you're going to be moving there slowly. That's kind of where Kirby and sort of Samus are at. Now, having bad air speed and bad air control... Yeah...

At the same time, characters have ways around it like Diddy's B-reverse everything... Or less insane, Fox's Fox Illusion and Reflector momentum stall.

 

[Vipermoon]

I mean yeah, obviously, we can see why airspeed is very important. My point was that people should pay equal attention to acceleration.

 

[migul]

Huh. Well I think what really makes up for it is the amazing-ness of his Fair, his good airspeed, and the ability to popgun reverse cancel in the air. He may not be able to weave back and forth but that's okay. He doesn't need to.

His air speed is 42nd, not counting dlc.

 

[Ffamran]

I mean yeah, obviously, we can see why airspeed is very important. My point was that people should pay equal attention to acceleration.

The fatal flaw when people (read: me) think Little Mac has good air speed... This also explains why Rosalina is such a slippery space snake... thing...

 

[FullMoon]

I think everything points out to the characters that have the best mobility overall being ZSS, Greninja, Fox and Sonic. Out of those four, Greninja and ZSS are the ones who are good to amazing at everything.

Greninja has a higher jump and falling speed as well as a faster walk compared to ZSS while she has higher air speed and acceleration as well as a faster run.

 

[Blobface]

This is something that I think will start to mar Sheik as the meta goes on.

Usually going for the 1 frame of ledge vulnerability is a complete crapshoot. Since what exact frame (of 60) they grab the ledge is unpredictable and borderline random, you have almost no chance of hitting. With Sheik however, her teleport will grab the ledge at almost the exact same frame every time. It's duration is long and reactable too (55 frames IIRC), and while the invincibility + distance usually protects it from direct edgeguards, it doesn't guard it against this.

Now to clarify, this isn't going to hurt Sheik a lot. She can still recover high among a host of other issues, and not every character even has an aerial that can do this effectively. I don't even think it'll take her out of the number 1 spot (assuming she's unnerfed), but it will bring her down a bit and might make some of her advantaged matchups a bit harder. It's definitely not going to give her a disadvantaged matchup.

Characters that will benefit from this the most are characters with powerful arcing aerials (that don't stage spike), since the long duration and large area coverage are ideal for hitting that 1 frame. If I were to guess, I'd say Ganon, Ike, Bowser, D3, and DK (bit iffy on this one since his fair is so slow) will benefit the most, with other characters with less powerful arcing aerials (Luigi, Marth, etc.) getting some slight benefits.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Kirby's D-Air is active for 16 frames, so he can use it on the ledge to effortlessly edgeguard Sheik. He can literally just hang on the ledge and use it when Sheik turns invisible to hit her. If he lands it, he can fast fall into a footstool, so it's pretty free.

Along with that, Kirby's D-Smash comes out on f10 and is active for 12 frames, so he can D-Smash the ledge when she grabs on to punish her.

If customs are on, Upper Cutter can easily abuse the vulnerability frame and is impossible to tech, too!

 

[san.]

I believe accel and f23 are also important for aerial mobility. Jigglypuff for instance doesn't feel all that maneuverable to be 1st imo.

 

[Nu~]

This is something that I think will start to mar Sheik as the meta goes on.

Usually going for the 1 frame of ledge vulnerability is a complete crapshoot. Since what exact frame (of 60) they grab the ledge is unpredictable and borderline random, you have almost no chance of hitting. With Sheik however, her teleport will grab the ledge at almost the exact same frame every time. It's duration is long and reactable too (55 frames IIRC), and while the invincibility + distance usually protects it from direct edgeguards, it doesn't guard it against this.

Now to clarify, this isn't going to hurt Sheik a lot. She can still recover high among a host of other issues, and not every character even has an aerial that can do this effectively. I don't even think it'll take her out of the number 1 spot (assuming she's unnerfed), but it will bring her down a bit and might make some of her advantaged matchups a bit harder. It's definitely not going to give her a disadvantaged matchup.

Characters that will benefit from this the most are characters with powerful arcing aerials (that don't stage spike), since the long duration and large area coverage are ideal for hitting that 1 frame. If I were to guess, I'd say Ganon, Ike, Bowser, D3, and DK (bit iffy on this one since his fair is so slow) will benefit the most, with other characters with less powerful arcing aerials (Luigi, Marth, etc.) getting some slight benefits.

Screw your invincible recoveries. I'll throw a melon at the ledge and deny you access to it.

Edit: I think we can also Nair by the ledge as well since it lasts for 19 frames. You want to time it right though since the later hits are weak

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I mean, if you mess up a wavedash in Melee, you're gonna be punished heavily. Perfect Pivot is really muscle memory -- practice it so you DON'T mess up. Use it in friendlies, if you screw up there it isn't a big deal.

Although... Rosalina has a terrible perfect pivot distance, so there's not much use for it. The only good thing about it is that Perfect Pivot D-Tilt has Rosalina and Luma attack in opposite directions.

I like this philosophy, although it admittedly is much harder than the wd IMO.

PP Up-Tilt with Greninja is the truth.

I just don't have the dexterity to do it consistently ;-;

Exactly. Who says Greninja's up tilt has a bad hitbox? Not people who can pp consistently.

 

[Trifroze]

I think everything points out to the characters that have the best mobility overall being ZSS, Greninja, Fox and Sonic. Out of those four, Greninja and ZSS are the ones who are good to amazing at everything.

Greninja has a higher jump and falling speed as well as a faster walk compared to ZSS while she has higher air speed and acceleration as well as a faster run.

I'd put Sheik and Pikachu there as well, Sheik having great stats at everything combined with bouncing fish and Pikachu having QA as well as good or decent stats at everything bar aerial speed. I'd put Falcon up there too but he lacks some aerial movement options aside from jumping up and down faster than almost anyone else, and doesn't really have anything to do b reverses or wavebounces with. His extended dash dance beats everyone else on the ground though.

 

[FullMoon]

I'd put Sheik and Pikachu there as well, Sheik having great stats at everything combined with bouncing fish and Pikachu having QA as well as good or decent stats at everything bar aerial speed. I'd put Falcon up there too but he lacks some aerial movement options aside from jumping up and down faster than almost anyone else, and doesn't really have anything to do b reverses or wavebounces with. His extended dash dance beats everyone else on the ground though.

I would place Sheik there but outside of Aerial Acceleration she's worse than Greninja at everything mobility-wise.

 

[Blobface]

I would place Sheik there but outside of Aerial Acceleration she's worse than Greninja at everything mobility-wise.

But Sheik is just a better Greninja.

Also, know that I think about it, Kirby's D-air is definitely one of the better moves for hitting Sheik on the ledge.

 

[S_B]

This is something that I think will start to mar Sheik as the meta goes on.

Bowser's Bair is amazing for catching Sheik like this, but it's also basically the only thing he has that's good against Sheik.

Did this a while back:

Also, since we now know that stage spiking can't be teched when the player is touching the stage, doesn't that make spiking the better option?

 

[Jams.]

Can she just react to the edgeguard attempt and purposefully not ledgesnap? She wouldn't want to trade with Bowser bair or Ganon fair, but she could probably afford to trade with something like Kirby dair. Come to think of it, can Sheik's upb reappearance even trade, or is she still invincible when the hitbox comes out?

 

[DanGR]

Also, since we now know that stage spiking can't be teched when the player is touching the stage, doesn't that make spiking the better option?

You can tech stage spiking when you snap to the ledge. You have to be grind-on-that-hot-chick-at-the-club close for you to not be able to tech it.

 

[Blobface]

@ S_B I'm not quite sure. Characters are a decent distance away from the stage when they ledgesnap, and I'm not sure whether it's techable or not. It's worth testing at some point.

@ Jams. It won't trade. Invincibility ends frame 53 and the second hitbox ends frame 55.

 

[⑨ball]

You can tech stage spiking when you snap to the ledge. You have to be grind-on-that-hot-chick-at-the-club close for you to not be able to tech it.

iirc there was also a mention of hitlag(where you can not tech) over lapping or sychronizing with recoil so if the move has enough hitlag during ledge vulnerability punishes it should still be untechable.



edit:Nacho is the bae

 

[NachoOfCheese]

iirc there was also a mention of hitstun(where you can not tech) over lapping or sychronizing with recoil so if the move has enough hitstun during ledge vulnerability punishes it should still be untechable.

*hitlag
It's really noticeable (and exceptionally useful) with Doc's Up B.

 

[webbedspace]

There's some confusion about "hitstun" and "hitlag". "Hitlag" refers to the freeze that both the attacker and victim receive when an attack connects.. "Hitstun" refers to the inability to attack or move (apart from teching and DI) during knockback. You can tech during the latter, but not the former.

 

[Nobie]

The f23 stat is horizontal friction, how quickly a character's speed drops to zero if you let go of the control stick. This also affects a character's ability to weave.