Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Spinosaurus]

I'd definitely consider air friction. It's a big reason why Mega Man and Wario have that much control in the air.

 

[Nobie]

I'm not a Palutena expert, but I think I'm starting to see why they buffed up-tilt the way they did.

People talk about it being a mediocre anti-air, but the move has some interesting properties.

1) Palutena sinks low to the ground, making a lot of attacks from above whiff.

2) The buffed hitbox now extends a bit higher

3) The hitbox activates Frame 10, somewhat quick, and lasts a really long time

The result is basically that most characters cannot directly challenge or confront Palutena's up-tilt. It beats Shulk nair. It beats Link dair. Sex kicks are ineffective. Probably only Mega Man can actually do something directly. Of course, trying to attack an opponent from above in general is not a good idea, but the long duration eats airdodges both early and late, and attempts to counterattack are beaten by the buffed size of the hitbox AND Palutena's low profile during the move. I also tested with Level 9 CPUs mainly because of their superhuman reaction time, and it's legitimately difficult for them to overcome up-tilt with their own attacks. What might have outranged it in the past no longer does because of the buff.

Your best choice is to just try to avoid it outright, but depending on the character this is easier said than done because Palutena's walk speed is pretty decent and her pivot is I think the best in the game? Also, when you factor in her OTHER qualities, including top 10 run speed, an invincible dash attack, crazy powerful up-air, nice effective nair, and situational but large-hitbox up smash, having an up-tilt that just beats almost everything seems part of a larger game plan to have a fantastic advantaged state that comes from having the opponent above.

 

[Routa]

Situational? Her Up-Smash is one of the best edgeguarding tools in game. It is one of the few things that are able to catch flying Ike.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

These light Up tilts are ridiculous man...

Makes me want to start playing Ryu more.

 

[K3H]

What are your guys thoughts on Lucas? I can't see him being any lower than B tier. He's got fast moves, 3 kill throws and a set up out if of the throw that doesn't kill, two powerful (albeit one being very situational) smashes, great combos and good recovery - especially since he isn't forced to be a sitting duck when off stage. He can fight no worse than 60-40 against most high tiers. I feel he maybe goes even with some, like Luigi and Fox. His spike is also oddly powerful, and can end stocks on characters with poor recoveries rather quickly. He's got his weaknesses, like small range, and no sex kick Nair, but I feel other than those things, he's a really solid character.

 

[warionumbah2]

Less than 15secs into the game: 65%

why tho

 

[TriTails]

Lucas beats Luigi.

PK Fire + Magnet + Z-air walls Luigi out like a what.

 

[Smog Frog]

is a decent character, but not for the reasons you mention. he's a very potent zoner that sort of invalidates most other zoning because his zoning tools(pk fire, zair) eat through projectiles and replace them with a hitbox that will damage the opponent. he's also capable of holding his own up close because his grounded tilt attacks are fast(his slowest is ftilt at frame 7 but it compensates with a disjoint and a sweetspot that does 11%)

overall i'd say he's viable with a secondary. it really hurts getting bodied by and .

 

[S_B]

You can tech stage spiking when you snap to the ledge. You have to be grind-on-that-hot-chick-at-the-club close for you to not be able to tech it.

Ah, so according to the video, you want to swat Sheik AWAY from the ledge when she's at higher % (as she has more of a window during which to tech) and you want to try to stage spike her when she's at lower % (when the window for her to tech would be smaller).

Also, if Sheik is RIGHT there at the ledge, she'll have less than 8 frames to tech because there's less than 8 frames between her being hit and traveling to the edge of the stage.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that, if a Sheik is under 100% and you have the chance to stage spike during her ledge snap, you have a very good chance of getting the spike.

 

[Emblem Lord]

These light Up tilts are ridiculous man...

Makes me want to start playing Ryu more.

You play a fast faller vs Ryu you deserve to get utilt locked for your audacity

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I remember watching an Emblem Lord video where he did Light U-Tilt on DK across the entire stage and then did D-Air once they were at the ledge to destroy his monkey butt. That was funny.

Is that an infinite on DK?

 

[Minordeth]

Larry's Falco is crisp tho, however the World Warrior trapped that bird, like he's been trapping other fighters since '87.

For reals though, if Mr. R actually switched to Ryu, life would be sweet. That Fair is ridiculous. I think Ryu gets up-ended by Sheik, due to her carry abilities, but Ryu has got the tools to take her down a notch, especially with c-c-c-combo breaker Fair and Nair and that Utilt on her fast-falling self.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I remember watching an Emblem Lord video where he did Light U-Tilt on DK across the entire stage and then did D-Air once they were at the ledge to destroy his monkey butt. That was funny.

Is that an infinite on DK?

Either the Ryu I was fighting the other day wasn't very good, or no because I SdI'd out.

 

[Patriot Duck]

The part of the video that really stood out to me was Falco's 0-death string at 7:13. Seriously, that was clean.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Either the Ryu I was fighting the other day wasn't very good, or no because I SdI'd out.

DK can get out but, Ryu can just walk up to him and do it again.

 

[Ffamran]

Less than 15secs into the game: 65%

why tho

That's actually a common occurrence when you play as Falco... against all MUs. You drop the ball and Falco's going to be up 50% in less than a couple of seconds. 50% for him is like 100% for Link. After that, you question life.

You play a fast faller vs Ryu you deserve to get utilt locked for your audacity

The sad part is Ryu is in my opinion, one of Falco's better MUs and that's not saying much.

 

[Minordeth]

I don't think Falco has truly atrocious MUs, even with his lack of mobility. He can just string things together, and it seems that as his string and combo trees become more common place and his B-reverse game takes a step up, I don't think he ends up in a terrible position.

Sheik, being a fast-faller, gets strung hard, as we saw with Pika, and I don't see it as a totally unwinnable MU. I actually think Falco is on the cusp on viability. But maybe I'm overrating the speed of his buttons.

 

[Emblem Lord]

@ Ffamran Huh? You presume to call a match-up for a character unlike any in this series before and he is only 2 months old?

Thats the kind of thinking that gets you utilt locked my friend.

 

[FullMoon]

I honestly don't know what to think of Lucas. I don't think he's bad, but I don't really feels he's that good either. He just feels so average.

A particular problem I have with Lucas is just that there's not really any MUs I feel like he will do better than Greninja for me. Even Luigi I think is better fought with Greninja just because he falls off cyclone so easily and he can still zone Luigi out very well.

 

[LancerStaff]

@ Ffamran Huh? You presume to call a match-up for a character unlike any in this series before and he is only 2 months old?

Thats the kind of thinking that gets you utilt locked my friend.

Isn't Ryu a lot like Falco, though? Mobility isn't great, fairly rigid projectile, lots of combos at low %, tons of easy KO moves, and being middle-ish in weight but a fast faller.

His tools are different, but I see similarities from where I stand.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm honestly more impressed by Larry's Falco than by Ramin's Ryu. That's probably because I have high expectations of pretty much every character that Ramin uses and I don't actually know what to think of Falco.

But yeah, the set went 2-1 for Larry's Falco and I think that's pretty rad.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Isn't Ryu a lot like Falco, though? Mobility isn't great, fairly rigid projectile, lots of combos at low %, tons of easy KO moves, and being middle-ish in weight but a fast faller.

His tools are different, but I see similarities from where I stand.

Comparing Hadoken to Falco's laser? As a RIGID projectile? Hadoken is one of the most versitile projectiles in the game. Falco can't even press the b button without getting punished.
Hadoken can stall in the air and mix up landings. Falco can... laser lock? So can Hadoken.
What exactly are Falco's "easy" KO moves? Do they even come CLOSE to Ryu's?

 

[LancerStaff]

Comparing Hadoken to Falco's laser? As a RIGID projectile? Hadoken is one of the most versitile projectiles in the game. Falco can't even press the b button without getting punished.
Hadoken can stall in the air and mix up landings. Falco can... laser lock? So can Hadoken.
What exactly are Falco's "easy" KO moves? Do they even come CLOSE to Ryu's?

But Hadoken is painfully slow and doesn't have much range. Maybe it's just because Pit's arrows beat Hadoken so soundly...

Most anything, last I checked. Falco has tons of KBG.

Similar, not the same.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

But Hadoken is painfully slow and doesn't have much range. Maybe it's just because Pit's arrows beat Hadoken so soundly...

Most anything, last I checked. Falco has tons of KBG.

Similar, not the same.

Hadouken's slowness is actually a good thing; it controls space for longer. Plus, the speed can vary, and it's not nearly as punishable.

 

[LancerStaff]

Hadouken's slowness is actually a good thing; it controls space for longer. Plus, the speed can vary, and it's not nearly as punishable.

Did I ever deny that? I know enough about how Ryu works. I'm just saying he isn't a super special snowflake or anything like that.

 

[Thinkaman]

I leave you guys for a week, and suddenly top-player Grand Finals are Ryu vs. Falco.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I know enough about how Ryu works. he isn't a super special snowflake or anything like that.

Pick one.

 

[FimPhym]

This is something that I think will start to mar Sheik as the meta goes on.

Usually going for the 1 frame of ledge vulnerability is a complete crapshoot. Since what exact frame (of 60) they grab the ledge is unpredictable and borderline random, you have almost no chance of hitting. With Sheik however, her teleport will grab the ledge at almost the exact same frame every time. It's duration is long and reactable too (55 frames IIRC), and while the invincibility + distance usually protects it from direct edgeguards, it doesn't guard it against this.

Now to clarify, this isn't going to hurt Sheik a lot. She can still recover high among a host of other issues, and not every character even has an aerial that can do this effectively. I don't even think it'll take her out of the number 1 spot (assuming she's unnerfed), but it will bring her down a bit and might make some of her advantaged matchups a bit harder. It's definitely not going to give her a disadvantaged matchup.

Characters that will benefit from this the most are characters with powerful arcing aerials (that don't stage spike), since the long duration and large area coverage are ideal for hitting that 1 frame. If I were to guess, I'd say Ganon, Ike, Bowser, D3, and DK (bit iffy on this one since his fair is so slow) will benefit the most, with other characters with less powerful arcing aerials (Luigi, Marth, etc.) getting some slight benefits.

I do this a lot as dedede. Dash attack works for this but has a year of start up so it's difficult against non-sheiks, gotta guess for timing. It's a huge hitbox active for a long time so you get the entire active time to let sheik grab the edge. Dash attack at the edge kills pretty damn early too. Having a gordo bouncing in place on stage also strongly incentivises grabbing the edge.


Bad as dedede is, his edge guarding is fun and strong.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I leave you guys for a week, and suddenly top-player Grand Finals are Ryu vs. Falco.

Ryus journey has just begun and Falco prefers the air.

WHAT'S NOT TO LOVE?!!?!?

 

[Jabejazz]

Bad as dedede is, his edge guarding is fun and strong.

It's arguably TripleD's strongest trait, and yet all I see is people throwing Gordos down the edge, and call it a job well done. Half the cast that he sends off-stage, he can potentially jump in there and make sure they don't even get to grab the ledge. Dedede has the tools to punish people recovering low. It's most definitely his facet of gameplay that isn't fully exploited, or at the very least, grasped on a basic level by its players.

I guess it goes with what @ Ffamran and @ Minordeth said earlier about people not edgeguarding properly. With a few buffs here and there ( Usable jab? Less risky Gordos? Brawl bair [Might be asking too much here]), he'd sit comfortably in a place above characters with easily abusable recoveries.

I leave you guys for a week, and suddenly top-player Grand Finals are Ryu vs. Falco.

No complaints here.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I leave you guys for a week, and suddenly top-player Grand Finals are Ryu vs. Falco.

Surely you're not complaining about this? It's refreshing to see characters other than Sheik et al in GF.

 

[shrooby]

I leave you guys for a week, and suddenly top-player Grand Finals are Ryu vs. Falco.

Yeah Larry, Ramin and Vinnie agreed they'd go the whole tournament without using their mains.
Larry was using ZSS and Falco, Ramin used MK and Ryu and VInnie used ROB and Rosalina once or twice.
it was funny/awesome~

 

[Emblem Lord]

Someone play me dammit.

On topic: Black Falco = Blaco

 

[FullMoon]

I would play you but lol Brazil.

Anyway, a character I don't see people talk much around here is Duck Hunt. What do you guys think of them? They're probably among the rarest characters.

 

[PUK]

For me DHD is really fun and could be really good if someone didn't thought he would be broken with kill move.
His traps are really good, but ultimately you can handle them, and since you can live forever the time you have to adapt is enough. Unlike sheik he can't do his stuff forever, so he's basically screwed

 

[adom4]

I would play you but lol Brazil.

Anyway, a character I don't see people talk much around here is Duck Hunt. What do you guys think of them? They're probably among the rarest characters.

Duck seems good until you realize he has the worst kill options in the game, i think it really holds him back.

 

[thehard]

Hey, if you guys want a rare look at the custom meta post-EVO, there's a tournament with John Numbers, Dabuz, and Mr. E streaming right now. http://www.twitch.tv/game5smash

Duck Hunt is one of those high-effort medium-reward "specialist" characters that, assuming no patch changes, is probably doomed to Game 1 "this was a stupid idea" picks, or Game 3 "I have nothing left in this life" picks.

But he is fun to watch. Maybe I'm just pessimistic because @DunnoBro has all but dropped him and I haven't seen MVD's on stream in a while.

 

[Blobface]

Anyway, a character I don't see people talk much around here is Duck Hunt. What do you guys think of them? They're probably among the rarest characters.

Duck Hunt in 4 seconds:

Spoiler

 

[LiteralGrill]

So remember how I made some comments on customs off Palutena? Ice Ninja is putting in some good work aty summit too. I gotta wonder if we're undervaluing her a bit, especially on stages with good platforms and warp shenanigans. I don't think she's probably scraping the top tiers or anything but these have been good matches to show.

 

[outfoxd]

For me DHD is really fun and could be really good if someone didn't thought he would be broken with kill move.
His traps are really good, but ultimately you can handle them, and since you can live forever the time you have to adapt is enough. Unlike sheik he can't do his stuff forever, so he's basically screwed

It makes you wonder why we haven't gotten a real boon in patches.

Anyone think they might be afraid of over buffing DH because of his kit?