VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Wake]

Marth on ys is easy, just don't let him get away from you. Easy enough when there's nowhere for him to run.

On a similar note, I seriously advocate playing dislikable mu's as peach. She's a high tier because she has all the tools she needs to play literally any matchup and win. Just because said tools don't absolutely neuter the opponent (ic's) doesn't mean you can't outplay your opponent regardless of stage or mu.
I gotta believe in peach more. Preference has had too much of an effect on my character choice in tournament.

I think the same thing. That's why I'm staying Peach against Puff. I think she has all the tools to win. She's such a good character.

I think Marth on YS is doable on the condition that you basically keep him on the ledge the whole game and never give him any space whatsoever. Marth sucks at coming up and needs jank to make it back - if you wind up f-throwing him 8 times to kill him, do it. It's effective. Also, be aware of how good run off / SH off nair (delay it to scout his recovery choice) is vs low Marth recoveries there. It's ultimately a tiny level where Peach's pressure gets super buffed (although random tipper at 50%+ sucks).

PS Fox doesn't seem impossible either. When I did this MU with Raynex in practice many moons ago (friendlies, so take with a grain of salt) it just felt like FD that stuffs his FJs & turnips in some parts (and that nerfs your CG, but the platforms are small so reaction tech chasing with aerials isn't hard either). Transformations are super gay if they're transformation savvy, but most Foxes really aren't. Low ceiling and him landing on a side platform after an u-throw uair at certain percents can be really devastating (super low percent kills) but it doesn't seem totally horrific (just... bad).

In general, if I have the choice between someone's Marth and Fox with Peach, I think take their Marth (if they're good with both). Most Marths seem to struggle really hard in the MU as far as I can tell. Don't know why, don't really see why it matters.

Thanks for the response guys! Yeah just something I've been thinking about lately as I get ready for a tournament in July. I've been leaning towards Marth on YS a bit.

And , you are crazy.

 

[EPsilon933]

Most Marths seem to struggle really hard in the MU as far as I can tell. Don't know why, don't really see why it matters.

Marth's don't even realize they have an up throw

Imma just use KKs quote anytime I want someone to stop posting because its that damn good.

Ok

And , you are crazy.

Ty

 

[ShroudedOne]

Marth gets the same positional that from uthrow that he does from fthrow > dash attack, with more damage. This is told to me by a Marth player.

All the same, Marth CAN'T KILL PEACH. He combos us to 60+, sure, but he can't kill us like we can him. That is significant.

 

[Silly Kyle]

Speaking of Marth...

Winner's Finals from the last tourney I entered. So excited cuz there is a tourney this Saturday and I want to **** on *****es.

Silly Kyle vs. Axe

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFNSJfiZ_To - Axe goes
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qgLesCSquE - Axe goes then

 

[EPsilon933]

Marth gets the same positional that from uthrow that he does from fthrow > dash attack, with more damage. This is told to me by a Marth player.

More escapable. This is done to me by a Marth player

All the same, Marth CAN'T KILL PEACH. He combos us to 60+, sure, but he can't kill us like we can him. That is significant.

Marth can edge guard Peach. He needs to go for hits, not kills

 

[ShroudedOne]

Swatting at her when she's 120+ vs her being able to nair him off stage at 80-90 or so, and put him in the same, if not worse, position...

At the same time, once she's in the air vs him, she's going to take loads of percent. Marth players seem to think that it's a bad thing about the MU for them, that they're always swatting her, but to be honest, she's super vulnerable.

I dunno. I just don't think it's as bad for her as you do, but Marth players (as do most people) suck vs Peach, so you could, in fact, be right.

 

[EPsilon933]

Swatting at her when she's 120+ vs her being able to nair him off stage at 80-90 or so, and put him in the same, if not worse, position...

True, Marth off stage is worse than Peach off stage no false

At the same time, once she's in the air vs him, she's going to take loads of percent. Marth players seem to think that it's a bad thing about the MU for them, that they're always swatting her, but to be honest, she's super vulnerable.

I think they think it's bad because it's not a potential combo like fthrow > stuff is a potential combo. uthrow > stuff leads to like an advantaged spacing game

I dunno. I just don't think it's as bad for her as you do, but Marth players (as do most people) suck vs Peach, so you could, in fact, be right.

Yeah. My Peach is entirely different from everyone else's Peach. To be honest, I think my style for her just happens to work vs Fox and Falcon and fail vs Marth. I'm so approach based

 

[Rosedemon]

I think Peach is just as bad if not worse than Marth off stage.

Its like, you have to go high or he can just beat your face in as you try to sweet spot, and even if you do go high the ***** can still catch you.

Peach without her float is like a Falco with bad ledge options.

 

[Wake]

I don't think Peach has a good way to recover against Marth. I agree with Alan.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Peach is just as bad if not worse than Marth off stage.

Its like, you have to go high or he can just beat your face in as you try to sweet spot, and even if you do go high the ***** can still catch you.

Peach without her float is like a Falco with bad ledge options.

Peach's recovery vs Marth is somewhat of an enigma to me. It feels good sometimes, bad other times. Probably has something to do with most Marths being bad vs Peach (they f-smash despite how bad that can be because it gives height, don't try to force low recoveries where you're most vulnerable, don't go for spikes when they're gimmes, and so forth). So I won't give anything thorough on it because my thoughts are probably scrubby and riddled with bias.

Peach edgeguarding, conversely, I think I have a decent grasp on. I think Peach's edgeguarding is pretty mediocre on Marth relative to what she has on Sheik, Falcon, space animals, ICs, and a bunch of other characters. When Marth is being edgeguarded by most good characters, it's pretty easy to recycle pretty generic ledge stall into ledgehop aerial patterns & algorithms and suddenly Marth is really easy to hit in one way or another. The weakness of this is that Marth kind of gets to 'pick' how he's hit, so he has all the time in the world to ready whatever SDI or such that he thinks is appropriate and therefore these loops can require craftiness until they're at high percent. That said, it's still free damage and you can setup combos this way.

Peach can't do this as effectively as the other good characters, though. She can stall once if you grab the edge with a WD FF (yes, the FF makes a difference) or similar non-float edge grab technique (and, truthfully, the stall is really good sometimes - even vs non-Marth characters!). But the fact that it's a single stall (just float right off the edge and then snap to it when you either hear the sound or see him get into a punishable position) makes it possible for Marth to out-stall you if he's saved his jump or float side-B (although you can drop off the edge and just bair him for the KO if he does this even slightly poorly - side-B is laggier than it looks). I still think float stalling, snapping to the edge at the appropriate time, and then standing into down smash or FC aerial is a pretty good play on him at KO percent if it's guaranteed, though. It's not like hitting a semi-charged down smash is bad in its own right (and if you somehow get it at low percents, free down tilt).

Otherwise, I think you basically just chuck vegetables at him or try to slam into him with a decent aerial (nair or bair, probably... or combo falling dair into d-smash [you drop onto his up+B and time it to hit him just as his hitbox goes away] at KO percent [or just to do like 16% - Marth's tech options aren't as good as spacies & Sheik's either lol] or try to fair his sweetspot, etc). It looks like Armada freestyles a lot of his edgeguards vs Marth (judging from his old matches... especially vs HBK, PPU, etc.) and seems to combo turnips into like... throws and stuff to keep Marth just off the stage itself. Personally, I think that's basically the way to do it. Marth's ledge options are weaker than the typical spacies and Sheik so... he's a lot more susceptible to pressure in that position. Get him to stand or do something similarly punishable and then toss him off. Repeat until dead. Use attacks instead of grabs if appropriate.

 

[Get Low]

So, while watching many videos of Peach players in the course of the year and a half that I've been playing Melee, I've noticed a trend that kind of gets on my nerves. Whenever Peach Dsmashes a relatively heavy character at a low percent, the character will often land either directly in front of or directly behind Peach (given that the other player doesn't tech the landing, which seems to happen in most cases). Now to me, this would be an opportunistic time to Dsmash again, since the opponent's character is in that move's range and it has the potential to do the most damage in that situation. But it seems like most people will try to follow up with a dash in some random direction to try to read a roll, and miss.

Like, if you notice that you're playing against someone that can consistently tech roll away from Peach in this situation, then trying to follow up with a dash attack or perhaps an Fsmash to the left or right is a good idea. But in most videos I've seen and in my own personal experience, they usually just end up laying there after missing a tech, just waiting to be punished again.

So I'll ask the question, what do you Peach players generally do in this situation?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Dash attack will start a combo if you hit it and it is possible to make that link (if they miss the tech). The only hard part is spotting their landing out of the down smash and getting the positioning right with the dash dance.

People used to down smash again, but the dash attack is worth more and not terribly difficult to hit either (although it can be awkward). I do think in some situations the second down smash is the better option though.

Also, everyone's copying Armada's moves. So, yeah. Dash attack fetishes all around.

 

[baka4moé]

Basically, as long as you're below kill percent from the misfire, jumping offstage with fair or bair covers a ludicrous amount of options for a fairly low risk. In a lot of situations, even if you get hit with the side-B you will kill Luigi by going offstage to intercept him simply because getting hit by it robs him of all his horizontal momentum. If they start saving their jump to try and counter this, it's still not hard to hit him. Depending on how early you catch this, you can abort mission and go for the edge (this is a MU where being able to grab the edge with your WD is really good IMO because the float stall lets you wait out a lot of his recovery stalls and then snap to the edge when appropriate, which is awesome). Edgehogging, on a related note, was another issue. You didn't hog him in a lot of situations that you could have hogged him in and it cost you a lot in terms of efficiency.

Another general tip vs Luigi (non-edgeguarding) is to stop trying to hit him with panic attacks. It's seriously the worst thing you can possibly do in a lot of situations because they're basically trying to bait you into doing those so they can get efficient up smash KOs (and your moves will rarely if ever beat his invincible up smash).

Thanks for this, it really does help. Never thought about intercepting luigi in that sense before. By panic attacks, do u mean like dash attacks? I feel like a lot of the times I got upsmashed it was i mispaced a float, not doing a move. As for hogging, I guess im scared of accidentally air dodging as im trying to roll, since luigis up-b is pretty fast and ive died trying to do that. Is there perhaps a way to counter this? Maybe I'm not reacting fast enough... thanks though!

 

[MacD]

i've been doing the DADS before armada was even born

 

[DoH]

The problem is that after a down smash, another downsmash is not most optimal. Sure you can get the most damager out of one hit, but the dash attack allows for followups that give more damage than another downsmash will, or even a good death combo.


Xelic does downsmash > downsmash a lot. I do it vs spacies sometimes.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Thanks for this, it really does help. Never thought about intercepting luigi in that sense before.

Yeah it feels really dangerous but as long as the percent is right there's really not much risk at all and the reward is huge.

By panic attacks, do u mean like dash attacks? I feel like a lot of the times I got upsmashed it was i mispaced a float, not doing a move.

I felt the bulk of his up smashes (or a good chunk of the ones that killed you) were from him comboing you for a bit and then you coming down with some aerial to try and shake him and then he'd beat it with up smash. Which is basically what he wants you to do and he's gonna try to fish for it to get efficient stocks.

Panic dash attack is bad in general. It won't combo into much vs Luigi (although it has okay returns vs some of his aerials) and doing it vs him when he's grounded is super duper risky (Up+B OOS kills you at like 60 or something ridiculous).

As for hogging, I guess im scared of accidentally air dodging as im trying to roll, since luigis up-b is pretty fast and ive died trying to do that. Is there perhaps a way to counter this? Maybe I'm not reacting fast enough... thanks though!

I suggest you learn some edgehogs that don't forgo your float so you can do the edgestall I was talking about in my giant wall of text on edgeguarding Marth (WD FF edgehog is good for its own reasons anyway). It's a really good move vs characters like Luigi with such obvious, limited recovery options... it allows you to counter stall vs his down+B and such without committing to much.

On a similar note, I seriously advocate playing dislikable mu's as peach. She's a high tier because she has all the tools she needs to play literally any matchup and win. Just because said tools don't absolutely neuter the opponent (ic's) doesn't mean you can't outplay your opponent regardless of stage or mu.

This game rewards perseverance in my experience.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I dsmash to dsmash for multiple reasons, i like it b/c i feel that dsmash can demorilizes some people, also sometimes it sets up edge guards, plus sometimes people dont see it coming or maybe they just mess up teching but i have had people tech back into me for a 3rd dsmash.

Now maybe something like dash attack might lead to more dmg with combo's, but i dont really expect for my opponents to miss a tech so i am surprised when they do so i dsmash b/c i dont want to miss a punish, plus free guaranteed dmg.

Sorry this is sloppy but i am rushing at work so no time to mess around, got to finish and get home so i can go to zenith

 

[kalamazhu]

I dunno. In a metagame where his lasers seem to be the dominant factor concerning him, being able to just float over them and death combo him seems really strong. But I'm not 100% sure, and I only think she might be a soft counter to him (similar to Puff).

lol puff doesnt counter falco either..
u need to play better falcos

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Puff Falco and Peach Falco are about even.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Those were my opinions on the MUs before. Perhaps I just need to spend a weekend with Mr. Kevin Nanney. But again, I'm not saying it's like a super duper counter or anything, but that their character designs, at the very least in theory, work against him somewhat well.

I honestly don't know who has the advantage as far as stages go.

 

[DoH]

A weekend with PP is the worst he won't teach you anything.

Now a weekend with Cactuar? That's profitable.

 

[EPsilon933]

I honestly don't know who has the advantage as far as stages go.

Imo, it's

Peach favor
FD - chain throws hurt him. Then there's finishing it with uthrow > nair. Kills Falcoes that don't know about it
YS - GIMPS!

Even
FoD - Falco does well here. I can't understand it
BF

Falco favor
PS
DL - So much room for Falco

 

[Get Low]

On a completely unrelated note, I met and played a few friendlies against ShroudedOne today.
He's black, which is the last thing I would've ever expected, lol.
But I'm happy that I finally know the man that hides behind that adorable avatar.

 

[Wake]

Everyone seems surprised that he's black, even though it's been stated multiple times haha.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm apparently supposed to be some scrawny, blonde, nerdy kid or something like that. Blonde hair might be nice to have, however.

I'm never doing Marth vs Peach again (as Marth). It's so hard.

 

[Wake]

ShroudedOne is black, Alan is black, Mike G is black, and I'm half black.

 

[EPsilon933]

I'm never doing Marth vs Peach again (as Marth). It's so hard.

You believe me? SUCCESS!!

****!

 

[Rosedemon]

Marth vs Peach is easy as Marth unless you're playing Mccain.

Only Peach to beat my Marf in tourny.

Edit: You're half black Wake wtf?

****ing Peach players being things people dont expect. Next thing you know theres going to be an actual straight Peach main.

 

[Wake]

Haha yeah I'm half.

An actual straight Peach main? Don't get crazy.

 

[Jethrotex]

But... I'm straight... I think...

I'll get back to you in a few years.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm straight...

 

[Rosedemon]

You're not, but thanks for playing.

 

[Get Low]

Also, are Rosedemon and Alan the same person? I think I saw a post eluding to that once, but I wasn't sure if I misinterpreted it or not.

 

[Rosedemon]

Yes im Alan

 

[ShroudedOne]

I am straight! Stop laughing!

 

[KirbyKaze]

No, I am Alan.

Don't listen to Rosedemon.

 

[~Twitch~]

don't listen to this imposter!

I am really Alan!

 

[john!]

we are all alan in our own way

 

[KirbyKaze]

John is clearly not Alan. He is John.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I don't see why there's so much confusion, guys. I'm clearly Alan. Don't be ridiculous.