• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,564
Anyways serious question peach players. I'm looking up some frame data (this goes with any character, not just peach) do stale moves have any effect on anything else besides the % of damage? Is hit stun reduced? Does it become less powerful? stuff like that.
As an effect of the % becoming less, the damage of the opponent after the hit is lower than if the move were fresh, so the KB is less than it would be if it were fresh. KB never stales to where hitting with the same move twice results in less KB on the second time though.
Hitlag is reduced also, as is shieldstun.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
Thats not entirely true, Strong Bad, Some moves do stale in knockback. I believe samus' strong missile is an example.

God we should start consulting each other before we post or something. Instead we post disproving the other and we both end up looking stupid xD
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
It occurred to me two days ago that I need to relearn/rethink the Falco MU. I don't know how to do this, all I know is float over lasers, fair him, take a stock. Rinse, repeat.
 

Paju

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
255
Location
Lempäälä, Finland
It occurred to me two days ago that I need to relearn/rethink the Falco MU. I don't know how to do this, all I know is float over lasers, fair him, take a stock. Rinse, repeat.
Just figure out how to avoid his dairs and lasers (if he can't land those he can't do anything), space yourself so you can punish those and learn to maximize your combos and you will **** him. And when you're floating over his lasers and going to fc fair him respect his utilt. If he can catch you coming down from float with his utilt you will get in very bad position. You can counter that by just floating little bit longer and baiting the utilt out and then fc fairing/bairing/nairing. Just remember to be unpredictable when floating. You have lots of options and you don't always have to go for instant fc fair.
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,170
Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
Falco is such nice combo food, and our edge guard on him is pretty good. That are his main problems against Peach, which we need to exploit, I guess.
Well, yeah, both are probably mostly practice, so get that practice :D

To get him into the position to be combo'ed you imho have three basic options: fair him in the face (will almost always create a knockdown, so techchase here we go), CC downsmash on weaker moves (his dair can't even be CC'ed at 0%, though other moves like fsmash are surprisingly prone to cc (40-50% iirc) or wd back into whatever.
At low percent your aim is to downsmash him, it will usually hit spacies at least two times due to their weight - fallspeed combination, so dsmash is a tremendous punish, and not CCable in the slightest :D
At medium percents (40ish) you should start going for dash attacks as punishes, they will move him into the air from where you can catch him with a grab / initiate a combo. Try to end combo by getting him offstage, and finish with a edge guard.
At high percents das attack becomes less good (unless you get that push him off the stage angle), since it won't combo anymore, downsmash is also undesirable since he can be thrown towards mid stage (he can always get that if he learns to cc precisely the first hit)... Luckily we don't need either, simple nairs / fairs will suffice in killing / creating a edge guard opportunity.

How to deal with his stupid stuff:
- Lasers: float above them, don't get mad at him (I hate lasers). (I might edit in more, but I have to leave soonish)
- dair: avoid it. Do not attempt to challenge it (at some angles fair should win, but I wouldn't risk it). "Simply" don't be where his dair is going down.
- nair: this thing can beat fair during its startup, and usually trades with our own nair. Easiest solution is usually just to cc downsmash. If you are in float, I recommend trying to make him whiff it by moving back. (some falcos don't really use the move too much, since it is pretty dangerous against Peach)
- utilt: shield it and punish (it looks deceptivly fast but is at -10 or sth on shield). If you are above him, and expect a utilt don't come down there. Bait it, and punish.

Lasers:
GAAAY :D
They are not a good camping tool (luckily), since Falco isn't much faster than us, and will get combo'ed hard if he shoots a bad lasers.
The disruptive effect is pretty bad though; one of our best options is to float over shl height (which is pretty high, take care), since fj lasers are much harder to hit, and ridiculously unsafe (41 frames compared to sh 17, both perfectly fast falled).
From that space you can go for fairs, but be careful. Even though he isn't fox his upsmash / uptilt are no jokes, so if you get predictable with the fairs, you will get punished. So sometimes you should do a slight retreat and just cover that with a fair. You have pretty much achieved your goal by then, which is simply getting in on him. If you are near him, his lasers become very dangerous (to him :D) and you can easily mix up between dash attacks and jumps, so he can't even know at which height he had to shoot. And sometimes you will sorta trade (you get lasered but still hit him), which is advantageous to us of course).
To get to the correct height you can just shield a laser, jump oos and go into float at the desired height.


Shine DI:
yeah, shines, lol. No post on fighting Falco is complete without talking a bit about this thing, I guess.
If you didn't do so already, go into practice mode and realize how shine doesn't throw you straight up, but to the side when not DIed, and remember that DI works best perpendicular (that "T" - thingy :D), which means you should either DI down and away or up and towards. I think up and towards is better when he WDs out of shine, and down and away is better for immediate jumps. Down air is similar and has another interesting thing about it: the spacing is pretty tight here. With SDI you can get away far enough from him not to get hit by a shine / utilt afterwards.
 

Paju

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
255
Location
Lempäälä, Finland
I've been saying this since 2009.

Just power shield everything
I don't think powershielding is that useful with Peach. You can punish lasers better by floating over them or dash attacking under them and generally spacing yourself barely out of your opponents range gets you better punishments than just powershielding. Peach is just too slow to abuse the powershielding like Marth for example. Ofc if you could powershield everything it would be different story but I don't find discussing about super theory bros to be very useful. Being able to powershield constantly is definitely a great tool to have but you often have better options than powershielding.
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,919
Location
NY (LI)
Has anyone tried to get down the timing for the at where u can pull a turnip while running off a ledge? Or did everyone forget about that at like i did, i only remembered it b/c i did it by accident.

:phone:
 

VA

Smash Hero
Joined
May 18, 2006
Messages
5,003
Location
Brighton, UK
Has anyone tried to get down the timing for the at where u can pull a turnip while running off a ledge? Or did everyone forget about that at like i did, i only remembered it b/c i did it by accident.

:phone:
Yeah I can do this, it's pretty worthless.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
Has anyone tried to get down the timing for the at where u can pull a turnip while running off a ledge? Or did everyone forget about that at like i did, i only remembered it b/c i did it by accident.

:phone:
i got pretty consistent with it, but its pretty useless. You still go thru the full picking animation.
 

Rosedemon

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
2,760
I don't think powershielding is that useful with Peach. You can punish lasers better by floating over them or dash attacking under them and generally spacing yourself barely out of your opponents range gets you better punishments than just powershielding. Peach is just too slow to abuse the powershielding like Marth for example. Ofc if you could powershield everything it would be different story but I don't find discussing about super theory bros to be very useful. Being able to powershield constantly is definitely a great tool to have but you often have better options than powershielding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4COWe9ILFog

 

N.A.G.A.C.E

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,919
Location
NY (LI)
i got pretty consistent with it, but its pretty useless. You still go thru the full picking animation.
I figured it was ether really hard or kinda useless since no one uses the tech, but even though u go through the whole pulling animation, cant it be kinda useful if u need to create some space to pull a turnip?

:phone:
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
the thing is, in order to start a down b you must have left your initial dash animation. This means you must be on the platform, run for a decent amount of distance, and then time it perfectly. Even after you do it, you gain no advantage beyond pulling the turnip as you fall to the ground. If you do this towards the middle of the stage, you will get hit. If you do it to the outside of the stage, you will get hit and be off the stage.


Its not very usefull
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,919
Location
NY (LI)
Man she pulls turnips, keeps a toad, and its my belief she can float b/c she opens up her legs (its like a vacuum where air rushes in to fill it up pushing her up letting her float), she takes whatever bowser is packing, and dsmash (there has to be some reason its so strong).

Man its like the inside of the Tardis up in there, just so much bigger on the inside

:phone:
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
Thanks for the Falco advice, guys. It makes tons of sense, I just have to implement it. :)

I've no comment on Peach's nether region.
 

Wake

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
3,191
Location
Thank you Based Mimi.
Man she pulls turnips, keeps a toad, and its my belief she can float b/c she opens up her legs (its like a vacuum where air rushes in to fill it up pushing her up letting her float), she takes whatever bowser is packing, and dsmash (there has to be some reason its so strong).

Man its like the inside of the Tardis up in there, just so much bigger on the inside

:phone:
Toad is just a yeast infection.
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,170
Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
I still want to see a combo where Peach hits some spacie offstage, does the turnip platform cancel thingy while running off the stage and does turnip -> nair on the spacie up b charge.
That would be so epic.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,564
Thats not entirely true, Strong Bad, Some moves do stale in knockback. I believe samus' strong missile is an example.

God we should start consulting each other before we post or something. Instead we post disproving the other and we both end up looking stupid xD
yes, projectiles stale in KB. i was speaking in general (because projectile KB only really applies to samus, really. poor samus)
 

The Irish Mafia

Banned via Administration
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
4,487
Location
cping you to Mute at a MDZ tourney
I hit like 20 runoff pulls on Saturday. Really not too useful. I got a whole bunch of stuff recorded though, tons of ****.
How y'all doin peach boards :3
I also feel it's worth mentioning that power shield dsmash literally changed the falco mu for me. Peaches should take advantage of the fact that they have the best power shield in the game.
:phone:
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
6,202
Location
pikachu
Think of the powershield as a button input (similar to jumping). If you hold the button too long the shield will remain. Press the R button then press C down.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
I like to think of it as the same motion as spotdodging. In fact, I accidentally powershield->fsmashed with fox yest by attempting to roll immediately after a powershield. It was great :D
 

TheSaudiMizer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 31, 2010
Messages
299
Location
High Point
So I think that if you are approaching with Peach and they are playing defensively, I think float -> waveland back is a good way to bait reactions (like if they are under a platform near the edge for example.) As a mixup it seems pretty safe and pressuring might be easier overall if they aren't too sure if you're actually approaching.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
Sigh... How often do we talk about how powershielding works?

It gives literally no frame advantage over normal shielding. It only lets you do normal ground moves. The only difference between powershield grab and shield grab is how far you slide and your shield doesn't take damage. It is not faster in any way. Same thing holds true for jumping.
 

DoH

meleeitonme.tumblr.com
Joined
Jul 1, 2004
Messages
7,618
Location
Washington, DC
The point is not just to reflect lasers. It's a mental attack too. Most Falco players aren't that creative to begin with, they have their standard laser to **** stuff that once you force to them to adapt they get seriously off their game. If you make a Falco's laser functionally powerless - or at best a decreased functionality or useless as a zoning tool - then you have created a paradigm shift in the match up. Falcos on defense are generally awful, and then you can rush them over with offensive fair to **** combos.

It has never been about playing like a TAS Peach. It's always been about making your opponent feel like their weapons are useless. Lasers and dair can't be spammed, making the matchup fair.
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,170
Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
Sigh... How often do we talk about how powershielding works?

It gives literally no frame advantage over normal shielding. It only lets you do normal ground moves. The only difference between powershield grab and shield grab is how far you slide and your shield doesn't take damage. It is not faster in any way. Same thing holds true for jumping.
Oh, I guess, I'll never stop learning new stuff about melee <3
 
Top Bottom