VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Silly Kyle]

= -2
= 0
= -2
= -1 (NTSC), +1 (PAL)
= -1
= -2
= +2
= +1
= +1
= +1
= 0
= +1
= +3
= +1
= +1
= +1
= +3
:mewtwo: = +2
= +2
= free
= free
= free
ichu: = free

 

[unknown522]

I don't think that sandardtoaster and idea understand how the ruleset works

 

[idea]

i meant he could have tried ylink vs. probably fox again.

 

[KirbyKaze]

eh as bad as peach puff is i think ylink fox is significantly worse :x

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Fox:38:62
Falco: ether 50/50 or 45/55
Jiggs: 38/62
Sheik: 45/55
Marth: 45/55
Falcon: 40/60
ICs: idk but i hear its like 80/20 (my ic's friend refuses to play this mu against me)
Doc: 55/45
Samus: 60/40
Ganon: 60/40 or 55/45
Pikachu: 60/40
Mario:
Luigi:
DK:
YL: 55/45
Link: 55/45
Zelda:
Roy: 65/35
Mewtwo:
Yoshi: 65/35
GaW:
Kirby:
Ness:
Bowser:
Pichu:

 

[idea]

eh as bad as peach puff is i think ylink fox is significantly worse :x

i know, but still...

oh, whatever

 

[Wake]

Fox: -2
Falco: 0
Jiggs: -1.5
Sheik: -1
Marth: -0.5
Falcon: 0/-.05
ICs: +2
Doc: +1
Samus: +1
Ganon: +2.5
Luigi: +1
DK: +3
YL: ?
Link: ?
Zelda: +1
Roy: +3
Mewtwo: ?
Yoshi: ?
Kirby: +1.5
Ness: ?
Bowser: +3
Pichu: ? (something terrible for Pichu I'm sure)

 

[Bing]

Young Link vs Fox... ewwww....

 

[King5280]

falcon -1 or -2 its gay.

 

[Bing]

I actually dont mind the Falcon MU as Peach... though it is kinda bleh :S

 

[EPsilon933]

's matchup ratios

Fox: 45:55
Sheik: 45:55
Falco: even
Jiggs: 45:55
Marth: He has an up throw, 40:60
Falcon: even
ICs: 60:40[collapse="none of the following matter"]Doc:
Samus:
Ganon:
Pikachu:
Mario:
Luigi:
DK:
YL:
Link:
Zelda:
Roy:
Mewtwo:
Yoshi:
GaW:
Kirby:
Ness:
Bowser:
Pichu:[/collapse]

 

[Wake]

Yay, another Peach who thinks that the Falcon MU can be even!

Marth harder than Fox and Sheik though, you crazy.

 

[Bing]

I agree, I think Fox and especially Peach have the favour over Marth in the vs Peach MU...

 

[ShroudedOne]

Someday, you all will realize that Falcon wins the MU. I'll see to it.

 

[Wake]

I agree, I think Fox and especially Peach have the favour over Marth in the vs Peach MU...

I don't think Peach has the favor over Marth...

Someday, you all will realize that Falcon wins the MU. I'll see to it.

I think if Falcon wins, it's very slightly.

 

[Bing]

err I ****ed up on that post :S

I ment Im pretty sure Fox and defs Sheik win over Peach... More so than Marth.

Sorry, my bad :S

Also, I think that if the Peach plays smart enough, its even... but most dont so its a slight Falcon lead... like 45:55

 

[ShroudedOne]

It doesn't matter how smart someone plays in an MU if there are fundamental characteristics of any character which the other is poorly equipped to deal with. I.E. Falcon's speed, if that makes sense.

 

[Wake]

Well I see what you're saying, but I don't think something like that can simply sway the MU in one's favor. I can just as easily say that Falcon is ill equipped to deal with Peach's edge guarding or something.

 

[Strong Badam]

DK is only really +2 I feel.

 

[ShroudedOne]

But Falcon has to put himself in that position, or get placed in that position. There is no position he has to get into before his speed becomes a factor in the MU.

 

[Wake]

I think Peach's aerial speed is very good at dealing with Falcon's movement speed. Once it becomes close quaters, Peach is faster than Falcon is.

I suppose if Falcon decides to run away on a big stage, Peach wouldn't be able to catch him.

It's possible that I haven't played a Falcon good enough yet though I dunno. I played Orly recently, and I still think it's around even.

 

[Bing]

I was thinking the same thing as Wake, Peach's game is based around trades, combine that with the aerial speed that Peach has in comparison to that of Falcon's, it becomes a pretty even match. Plus Peach has the game-changing downsmash which could change the entire match in seconds. Now I understand that Falcon has many variabilities to swing the matchin his favour, say a missed tech or anything leading into a knee and game = changed. By no means do I think this is in Peach's favour, im saying its still in Falcon's Favour, It just seems like too much credit is being given to Falcon.

 

[EPsilon933]

Why Peach is better than you think (unless it's vs Marth)

Captain Falcon
The biggest problem you're thinking of is his dash dance. It's not that bad. Falcon is so afraid of your dash attack. It will always beat all of his other moves. Use it as a surprise move to stop his dash dance close to you. Somehow Peach's grab works vs Falcon. I can't explain it yet... Like in all matchups, control that square area withing the pyramid platforms. Don't let Falcon stay in it. You'll push him closer to the edges and when you get too close to the edges, you're basically getting edge guarded

Sheik
Sheik's approach game is terrible. Let her approach. She has only like 4 options; dash attack, dash grab, walking ftilt, and fair. All of her moves are so crouch cancelable (aside from ftilt)

Marth
Marth has a sword. Peach has terrible mobility. She can not get passed swords. The correct way for Marth to play this is to have the stubbornest refusal to approach, basically. Turnips won't work as well vs Marth as they do vs other characters. Marth can bat them away so easily. Marth has uthrow. Marth is good at juggling. Peach is bad at descending

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Heart i disagree with u. My current training partner is a marth and in no way do i believe its a 60/40 but i will say he doesnt use up throw at lower dmg so next time we play i will ask him to try it out and see if my opinion changes.

But falcon's combos, stage control, and punish game is so good. Plus for some reason it seems like falcon's aerials beat out peach's or maybe if timed perfectly trade. Falcon is kinda a ***** and definitely harder then marth imo

 

[ShroudedOne]

While I don't think that dash attacking his DD is as reliable strat as you make it out to be, Zant, I do have to concede that our best defense against his movement speed is our aerial speed. His aerials do normally beat ours, but we can dash attack those.

I guess 55:45 his favor is what I'll concede to.

 

[thesage]

When marth is batting those turnips away, you are making him commit to something. Also sidestep is good in the matchup.

 

[Quaz]

alright... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGbwVngdDEQ

This is from the same tourney as the one with me against Little England's sheik, which was almost 2 months ago, but I doubt I play any differently.

Go ahead.. tear me apart.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

The other day i was chilling with a friend who plays smash but isnt that good (hes ok), i was showing him my fc as fast i can skillz and then showed him how to do it and gave him the controller. Needless to say he had a lot of trouble pulling any off. Then i asked him if he wanted to try the 1min challange for fun he said no and that quick fc moves were not fun. I couldnt believe he didnt find it fun. Was i biased as a peach main or do most people not find quick fc's and the 1min challange fun?

 

[EPsilon933]

I don't find tech skilling fun

 

[King5280]

thats not fun.

 

[!Peligro!]

@Quaz: edgeguarding is the biggest thing I noticed. You were doing pretty well overall, but dropped several edgeguards. He pulled the Falcon trick of looking like he was UpBing onto the stage but then pulling back to grab the ledge. If you can make him commit to landing on stage it's very easy to punish his lag.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Maybe i am just having fun with it b/c 1:its a challange to see how many apm i can get and 2: b/c since i started working on my quick fc i have started to play better and more consistent, while feeling much more in control of peach.

(Its always fun when u can notice improvement )

 

[VA]

Falcon ***** Peach because of cheatingly good grab punishes on her which pretty much no one else has and his uair ****** her face off.

 

[ShroudedOne]

alright... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGbwVngdDEQ

This is from the same tourney as the one with me against Little England's sheik, which was almost 2 months ago, but I doubt I play any differently.

Go ahead.. tear me apart.

OMG YOU'RE SO BAD! PEACH NOOB, GOSH, WHY ARE YOU SO TERRIBLE AT THIS GAME OMG CAN'T EVEN BEAT DUMB FALCON HE'S SO BAD OMG LEARN HOW TO MELEE SCRUB

<3

Now that I got the tearing apart out of the way..

You've got to stop shielding so much vs Falcon. Our OoS game isn't as good vs him, cause he pressures shields surprisingly well, and if he sees you shielding, he can just grab you and get free damage. This tendency to shield also leaves you quite immobile, which also costs you the set. Against Falcon, you can't stay in one spot. Otherwise, he's just going to run all over you and not let you do anything. Try reacting to his movement with movement/aerial placement of your own. You can control the pace vs Falcon, but don't let him do it first.

You've also got to DI those uairs. You weren't getting super comboed (something that ends in knee), but you weren't DI'ing them well enough (you should really only get it twice at the most). Down and away. When he nairs, mash up to SDI out, and mash nair to stop him.

Be a bit safer on his shield. What I mean is, that we shield pressure him very well, but it has to be tight. Dash attacking his shield will just get you grabbed. Stick to good things like nair > downsmash, fair > grab, fair > downsmash. If you notice him just shielding, grab. We get good profit off of our grabs, so do it often.

Never recover high vs Falcon. Well...I guess once in a while, but as a general rule of thumb, don't recover high. His uair is stupid.

You just need to work on making yourself more suited to constantly reacting to Falcon, and being acutely aware of his positioning. And stay mobile, so that you can be in a position to follow up on your reactions.

I hope this helps.

 

[TheSaudiMizer]

So does anyone ever upsmash OOS? Seems like it would have its uses but I never really see it used.

 

[ShroudedOne]

When Puff dash attacks our shield, we get the strongest hit of our upsmash if we upsmash OoS. Other than that, it's generally an option that is too slow.

 

[VA]

Nair OoS > Usmash in almost every situation.

 

[TheSaudiMizer]

I was thinking that but can't you get a better hitbox if someone is coming from above you since you hit above you rather than rising with a horizontal hitbox? Like if you're in shield and a falco is coming above to dair you, it's not really safe to go for a nair right? Even if you can only get a weak hit with the upsmash, you can usually combo out of it.

 

[VA]

I was thinking that but can't you get a better hitbox if someone is coming from above you since you hit above you rather than rising with a horizontal hitbox? Like if you're in shield and a falco is coming above to dair you, it's not really safe to go for a nair right? Even if you can only get a weak hit with the upsmash, you can usually combo out of it.

Don't try to trade his dair with Usmash OoS that sounds awful. His active frames in the animation completely beat yours out. If you're going to try to do that make sure he's way above you and try to umbrella on a read.

Or alteranatively wait it out in your shield. Peach likes to be in shield, they can only grab you and that you can react to.

 

[TheSaudiMizer]

Can't beat it at all eh? Well that's why I was asking about it. Is there almost no range above her hand? I still want to say there are probably situations where it's a safer option (lag aside) than OOS nair, but don't really know. Does the weak hitbox actually give combos on fast fallers or can they escape with good DI? Although I'd imagine most people aren't ready to DI an upsmash.