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VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

MacD

MacD

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N.A.G.A.C.E said:
The other day i was chilling with a friend who plays smash but isnt that good (hes ok), i was showing him my fc as fast i can skillz and then showed him how to do it and gave him the controller. Needless to say he had a lot of trouble pulling any off. Then i asked him if he wanted to try the 1min challange for fun he said no and that quick fc moves were not fun. I couldnt believe he didnt find it fun. Was i biased as a peach main or do most people not find quick fc's and the 1min challange fun?

:phone:
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that is why he didn't find it fun and didn't want to do a challenge. especially when someone else is showing you and can do it well.

VA said:
Don't try to trade his dair with Usmash OoS that sounds awful. His active frames in the animation completely beat yours out. If you're going to try to do that make sure he's way above you and try to umbrella on a read.

Or alteranatively wait it out in your shield. Peach likes to be in shield, they can only grab you and that you can react to.
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wtf are you talking about

peach's usmash beats like 95% of dairs and probably a bunch of fairs/bairs cause the move is that janky

the only dairs that can trade are falcon (and that's reallly hard to do) and ganon (normally trades from my experience), and marth's dair completely beats it as far as i can tell

it can def work OoS, but it is super situational. but people haven't really experimented with it in lots of situations (like ftilt, i think that move is super under appreciated. still situational, but so much better than people give it credit for).
 
Quaz

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Usmash is awesome, we might as well use it more because it has the same amount of total frames dsmash has. (I think its like 30) and its not like we get punished for missing a dsmash everytime.

:phone:
 
ShroudedOne

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I'm certainly not going to challenge MacD's knowledge of her upsmash.

But I definitely thought that it beat Falco's dair. Glad to see I wasn't wrong.
 
N.A.G.A.C.E

N.A.G.A.C.E

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Lol i dont just want compliments (but will take them if u r offering)

@macd, i didnt want to write more then i had but it was not b/c he couldnt do it ne didnt like it. He expressed why he didnt like it and that had nothing to do with it.

Also when timed right up smash oos beats pretty much everything coming down at it b/c its invincible near the top

:phone:
 
MacD

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er, i meant to say people haven't experimented with usmash OoS much

i'm like the number 1 usmash user and i know tons of people have started to follow suit

@wake me and connor had some of the craziest combos planned with double peach, i'm sad we never got to really do them

and not finding the challenge fun isn't weird, it's a peach main thing and even then i don't really care

and no matter what he said, not being able to do something right/well makes it so much less fun
 
EPsilon933

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Up smash is situational but awesome in friendlies. I use it half the time as just a random gimmick. As for useful situational uses, if a fast faller lands on a (short) platform above me, I just guess where he's going to stand up and up smash. It kind of leads into comboes
 
N.A.G.A.C.E

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I dont think not being good at something makes it less fun, sometimes it just adds to the challange. Also u will just have to take my word on him not being good at it not being the reason b/c its something u would know about him only if u know him.

:phone:
 
T

TheSaudiMizer

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Yeah I went into training mode and I guess a weak hitbox upsmash won't combo with good di, but I like how you can get a strong hit even if they're grounded in front of you. Although I'm guessing you can get a combo if they are caught off guard by it. You definitely can't do it too much since people will probably bait with a double jump, although if you don't do it and they waste their jump then hooray for that.

Right now I'm working on edgeguards since I rely on a falling bair way too much (still pretty good though). Hard to do with computers though since they don't really mix up recoveries. How reliable is dair to nair if they are recovering from below? Can't it be SDI'ed? (sorry if I'm using the wrong term here)

Edit: Haha, nice Paju.
 
ShroudedOne

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I haven't been playing nearly as much lately, but upsmash is definitely going onto my experimentation list. I've been wanting to play with ftilt, too, but I never remember. I think it's sort of underrated (though still bad generally).
 
ShroudedOne

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Same, and whenever I try it on purpose, I get punished...perhaps it's only meant to be a good mistake...
 
MacD

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oh man that video always makes me laugh

people underestimate the quick start of ftilt and never will DI it to the fullest extent. if you hit with ftilt it'll combo, and at high level play if you miss like any attack you're gonna get punished so the "high lag" doesn't really matter

and not like i'm saying we should start using the DAFTDS or anything, i just feel it is under appreciated and has it's uses, just not one wants seems to want to try and find them
 
Bing

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Okay so when edge guarding Falcons who are recovering mid-high. I like to jump out, down throw a turnip on there farside to force them toward the stage, then fastfall nair/fair their tumbling body... how terrible an idea is this?
 
T

TheSaudiMizer

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What's mid-high? Like the same height as if you were standing on the stage? I think CF's recovery is easy enough you don't even need to bother with turnips a lot. If he's too far out to land on a platform, I think sitting over the edge so you can nair on a low float is an easy way to keep him off the stage (fair has better knockback but is more likely to miss so eh). If he's too low, then falling bair if you can or grab the ledge, getup and downsmash or something. If he recovers from high it's the hardest but you just want to focus on hitting whatever to get him back off so you can repeat the process.
 
Bing

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I know I have these options, Just for some reason I got used to trying to turnip spike Spacies,and then I started doing this and Im basically asking how terrible a habit this is :S

But yes I mean about standing level.


Also last night I was playing on Yoshi's and I was Floating right above randall and then I stopped and just touched Randall and started Floating right threw the middle of Yoshi's (like I was chest down IN the stage) I was trippin out
 
T

TheSaudiMizer

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Yeah turnips are still good, but you want to throw them as early as possible into his recovery I think. Early turnip will usually be an easy ledge grab edgeguard, and you still have plenty of time to do the above if you miss.

Edit: I would respond to your specific situation but I'm just having a hard time understanding exactly what you're talking about.
 
Bing

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Okay, I've been doing a lot of work against spacies, now something that I've seen Armada do a lot is when a Fox/Falco is recovering from bellow, yet close to the stage, he jumps out and throw a turnip down to knock them down/out. I am working on getting better at this and for some reason its making me get this bad habit of throw a turnip at Falcon's recovering high to fastfall back towards the stage and nair... I honestly dont know why I do it...
 
VA

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The timing of beating out a dair on shield with an usmash OoS is just incomprehensible. When would this ever be useful? I can't see it. It's almost as bad as Falcon usmash oos.
 
T

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I wouldn't say the timing is incomprehensible... and it's hard to get a feel for when a move would be useful if it's never used. It could be a better % punish if you get a badly spaced aerial on your shield compared to just 1 nair, especially since a weak hit can combo, but I agree that the move isn't really needed at all. I've seen armada combo a weak up smash to a strong one before (and Paju, just last page), so I was just wondering if anyone has messed around with it very much.

Anyway I never got an answer about dair edgeguards (catching them recovering from below right at the edge). Does it reliably lead to nair? Work better on certain characters? One of the computers I played managed to make it through the dair onto the stage before the nair came out, and I don't know if you can SDI down to get out of it or if it's character/percentage dependent.

@Bing: It could work I guess but it seems like you leave a greater risk of flubbing the edgeguard. Sounds like even if they get hit by the turnip they'll just up-b again and be ok. You don't need to be as aggressive to successfully edgeguard CF as opposed to fox/falco where you have a smaller window and more options to cover. I think the most important thing is to be patient with CF. Respect the options he has and just figure out what will send him back off or if you see a window to finish him go for it.
 
VA

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By no means do I not use usmash, I never implied that. I said usmash oos is not good for beating/trading in more than 1-2% of situations in my mind. That's my opinion. I would prefer nair (after the hit) or umbrella OoS or to not try to beat out someone's dair with an usmash. Just me.
 
T

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Well I asked because I thought it could be a bit more reliable than that, but haven't had the chance to test it myself really. I am technically a noob I guess so I'm prone to throwing out dumb questions or scenarios.
 
VA

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Regarding dair edgeguards, they're not free into nair unless they don't know how to DI it, nor is it a particularly reliable edgeguard against characters with good sweet spots. Majority of people I play against will escape it with SDI down, though the hit stun means by the time your animation ends and the character has started their recovery again you can either do it again or nair anyway and they'll go into it, though the nair is an easy set up for an edge tech for them.


Regular situations useful: Falcon, Ganon
Some situations useful: Fox, Falco
Rarely useful: Sheik
Almost never: Marth
Never: Peach

It's ok for getting particular angles of Up B from Fox and Falco and pretty inescapable as Falcon in terms of going in if they come from low and you space it right. Though vs Peach as Falcon I use away DI and this means that I can get close enough to get the grab animation of my Up B out before she can start doing another dair or a nair.
 
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