standardtoaster
Tubacabra
Thanks for the critique, Shrouded One. I'll keep that stuff in mind.
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VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)
- Thread starter Cia
- Start date
Fortress | Sveet
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i got accepted into dota2 today :D
@standardtoaster: I think ShroudedOne covered most of stuff I thought of, but just wanted to chime in. I think the speed thing is very important. Your movement is awkward at times and sometimes puts you in bad positions.
http://youtu.be/K8UDQIfKdBo?t=7m39s
The other thing I would say is be aware of your attack choices. When he teleported as Zelda onto the stage you could have got on the stage and killed with a bair or uair (probably nair or fair too). After tossing him around some more you let him get back to the stage at 184% and threw a turnip.
Any aerial would kill at that percent.
I think MacD has really good Sheik edgeguards. I've started bairing through Sheik's teleport explosion for followups a lot more since watching his Apex match against KK. His matches vs. Kira also have some good edgeguarding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzYICkmoLYk
http://youtu.be/K8UDQIfKdBo?t=7m39s
The other thing I would say is be aware of your attack choices. When he teleported as Zelda onto the stage you could have got on the stage and killed with a bair or uair (probably nair or fair too). After tossing him around some more you let him get back to the stage at 184% and threw a turnip.
Any aerial would kill at that percent.I think MacD has really good Sheik edgeguards. I've started bairing through Sheik's teleport explosion for followups a lot more since watching his Apex match against KK. His matches vs. Kira also have some good edgeguarding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzYICkmoLYk
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I will look at your vids, Paju, but I just had to come in here and say (again) that ftilt is so good in the Falcon matchup. That is all.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
A lot of the time when I ftilt I mean to dash attack instead. I have no clue why I have slight troubles with it. lol
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Her dash is weird. It's starts later than a lot of other dashes, I think, so the timing is odd. You think you dashed sooner than you actually did, and then you press A. Only, you haven't dashed yet, so you ftilt.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
Ah. That makes a lot of sense then.
MacD
Banned via Administration
every
single
peach
main
does
this
IT'S SOOOO ANNOYING
but can also lead to funny combos
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
Alright, cool. Good to know it's not just me. haha
thesage
Smash Hero
OMG this lol.
So I've been thinking that in the Falcon and Shiek matchups during neutral situations (idk how else to describe it) it's best to stick close to the ground and be ready to cc their moves and bait them to miss things.
It makes sense I get ***** by them since I like jumping in the air and stuff. That's how I play those matchups with Ness and (at least with the Falcon matchup) I feel like I do just as well with him as I do with my Peach.
Fortress | Sveet
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Yeah i've never had that ftilt problem with other characters, wtf is it about peach that makes you ftilt when you want to dash attack
john!
Smash Hero
because peach is a dirty ****
Composeur
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2007
- Messages
- 518
It's especially bad when you're trying to dash behind you. Maybe Peach's startup animation for a reverse dash is slightly laggier than some other characters'? Either way, it's definitely exacerbated by the fact that her dash attack is such a useful punishment and combo move that she's more likely to try to execute a quick dash attack in the first place.
Fortress | Sveet
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Personally I think its just player error caused by an odd timing on IASA frames. For example, if you try to do a dash then A but you preform it a frame or two early, your dash won't be inputted and instead it will be read as holding left/right. Your A input would then cause the game to make you ftilt. You can solve this problem by being more aware of the situation and correcting for this common mistake.
I don't usually like to allow misinformation to flow around, and while I think many people understand my last paragraph pretty well without me explaining it, I don't want to take the chance that someone will actually take the "peach is magically harder to dash attack with" argument seriously.
I don't usually like to allow misinformation to flow around, and while I think many people understand my last paragraph pretty well without me explaining it, I don't want to take the chance that someone will actually take the "peach is magically harder to dash attack with" argument seriously.
MacD
Banned via Administration
Rosedemon
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2007
- Messages
- 2,760
But if Peach has awkward frames in regards to her dash attack that other characters dont have, doesnt that then make dash attacking peach more difficult then with other characters?
Kinda how people find shorted wavedashes to be harder than longer ones, or strict short hoppers like fox to be harder than others.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
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- 5,493
I swear to you that her dash starts later than, say, Fox's. If you input a dash for both characters, Fox will enter his dash first.
Wake
Smash Master
I was just going to say this.
Riddlebox
Smash Journeyman
Mmmm, I've been trying to figure out ways to get out of Falco pressure; I know that N-airing out is dependable (depending on where he's aiming on your shield and how early/late the aerial is)...but I was wondering what you guys thought about buffered jump out of shield. Granted, the only real opportunity you can use it is when he tries to fall back a bit to reposition himself, but at that moment during a laggy move in his pressure if you buffer jump out of shield, the positional advantage is really nice. By advantage I mean, you can now float at your preferred height again and not worry about dealing with lasers (which you'd have to deal with if you picked another escape option such as roll); hell depending upon his reaction to that you're in your usual and comfortable position to punish pretty hard.
Anyone experiment with this before? Any flaws you came across :o?
Anyone experiment with this before? Any flaws you came across :o?
Fortress | Sveet
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Its not her dash attack that has awkward frames, its the move you are trying to do before the dash attack that is awkward. Haven't you noticed that many times its when you try to do a ground move and then dash attack? That means you are expecting IASA frames slightly too early and you dashing too early. That doesn't make it "hard" it just is. Is it hard to jump after downsmashing? No, you just have to press jump in a valid domain.
thesage
Smash Hero
I am about to get my ar back and I will test this.
thesage
Smash Hero
Peach just really likes lifting her legs high up in the air
❀W.E.M.P.❀
Mote Of Dust
this just means you are part of the family. her ftilt causes so much drama
warm and fluffy
On a serious note, do any of you guys find battlefield hates peaches upB, like i just won't grab the ledge sometimes.
Getting some new stuff recorded against players that go even with me or are better than myself, can't wait to get some of yInZ to give me feedback :U
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
yo so i roll to much, this is a problem i am well aware of. so tonight when i was hanging out with friends i decided that every time i did a unsafe roll i would stop playing and let my opponent hit me for it. Oddly enough i didnt roll to much today but i was wondering if anyone else here has tried this and what results they had from it, or if people think this is a good idea and will teach me not to roll.
Silly Kyle
Smash Champion
yay!!!! Axe and I won doubles, beating Taj and Wobbles in Grand Finals :-)
+ = straight up murder
+ = straight up murder
Paju
Smash Journeyman
Anyone? =(
john!
Smash Hero
i'm not that great vs. falcon but generally i treat it like that marth matchup: don't go in the air often and edgeguard aggressively.
Wake
Smash Master
So Kels beat Vanz. Fox/Peach is hard.
Cia
das kwl
^ Ya I got *****. Which is kinda what I expected :D
I really enjoyed my sets with Duck tho. There was soooooooo much spacing and smart play all around. Prolly the highlight of the tournament for me except for this combo i got on Kels in a Fox ditto
I really enjoyed my sets with Duck tho. There was soooooooo much spacing and smart play all around. Prolly the highlight of the tournament for me except for this combo i got on Kels in a Fox ditto
Wake
Smash Master
Kels' Fox seems like the kind of Fox that would be the bane of Peach players.
Fortress | Sveet
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Kels' fox is the bane of all players.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
The two primary objectives that I think one should keep in mind when fighting Falcon are:
1) Don't get grabbed.
2) Don't be above him.
There are many other important things, obviously, but I think these are the two very important ones.
Firstly, I noticed that you were getting knee'd a lot after whiffed downsmashes. Falcon's very long horizontal short hop, in addition to him having the fastest run speed in the game, make stray downsmashes very dangerous. I feel like you think you'll catch him messing up a dash dance or something, so that the downsmash will give you a good punish. But if you're at all uncertain if it will hit or not, don't throw it out. This can also lead to a grab, which is very bad for you.
I noticed (mostly in the first and second game) that you'd sometimes retreat to the tops of platforms, and then get upaired. Falcon's upair destroys anything you can do from above if timed right (unless you happen to trade it with downsmash, I guess). I recommend staying on the main stage most of the time, if not always. Floating in the air is a bit safer, because you can time an FC aerial to stuff an approach if he tries one, but use that sparingly, as well.
If you get grabbed, mix up your DI. Technically, Falcon can follow up on any DI you input from a downthrow with an aerial/grab, so the more you mix up your DI (between in, in+up, down, down+away), the harder it is for him to follow up. Fuzzy was catching your DI away on his downthrows, (I think you DI'd down+away on each one, and he caught almost all of them).
But please don't get grabbed. Stay mobile with aerials/WD movement. In addition to that, staying in shield versus Falcon is fairly bad, because he has weird shield pressure that works on us, especially late knee > gentleman. Plus, at any time during, he can just react to you shielding (say, while he's jabbing in his gentleman), and just grab. WD back > dash attack beats his short hop nair as long as you catch him as he rises, and WD back > CC downsmash can also beat a high short hop nair. WD > dtilt at 30-50ish can set up for good rising uair/FC uair combos. Mix in sparse floats (altering your float heights against him is very important), because baiting him into running into a fair can set up for an early combo at really low percents (FC fair > techchase grab/downsmash > ??? ).
Basically, you want to be constantly moving, and keep yourself at a good position where you can react to how he tries to approach you, and punish that. You were keeping mobile, but sometimes you would overextend your dashdance, and then do that funky thing when characters turn around slowly in their run. Keep your DD short, so that you can stay mobile. Turnips make you immobile for half a second, time you don't need to be standing still. They don't give you that much in this MU, anyways, besides being a good baiting/coaxing tool for camping opponents, and sometimes working during edge guards.
When you get upaired by Falcon, you want to DI down+away. If you don't, you'll get upaired to hell (I personally think that this is his best move against her by far, because it combos so well, and beats her moves). When he nairs you, I believe you want to SDI the hits up and away (someone please check me on that, but that seems to work). There was a brutal combo he got on you on FoD (3:54), and that will happen when you don't DI his combos properly. Because Falcon sends you upward when he combos, you don't want to try to float out of it (you did that at one point during the combo, and got a uair for it). Trying getting back to the ground or nairing out.
Edge guarding Falcon should be a simple process. You seemed to have trouble with it in games 1+2, and kind of learned in game 3. Pulling turnips for his recovery is not optimal, unless they are far enough away to where you think they will try to Falcon kick to gain another jump, and you want to intercept that. Otherwise, you just waste time. Fair/reverse nair are probably the best options against mid/high recoveries. Bair is ok, but it gives them height, and doesn't have the best knockback. For low recoveries, dair > nair works, or even just grabbing the ledge if you get a read on it. You can downsmash too, but don't expect it that often. Dash attack can also work, because Falcon can't sweetspot his upB facing forward, and our dash attack sweeps very low.
Well, I've written too much. I hope this helps at least some, Paju. It's probably one of the hardest ones to learn for her, but it's not quite the worst once you get it down. =)
(If anyone notices anything off that I said, or has something to add, please do. I'm trying to learn, too.)
Paju
Smash Journeyman
Thank you so much ShroudedOne! =)
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Idea.
Fortress | Sveet
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no 
allowed
allowed
Wake
Smash Master
Maaan I don't see how Kels loses to Puff... like literally, I haven't seen those videos haha.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
john!
Smash Hero
my little sister could probably beat kels with puff