DragonBlade
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2005
- Messages
- 273
Do you guys think this(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwz6hx8elNc) would be a good theme song?
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the reason I am discussing as if it were to become standard play was because I believe a few pages back the Op stated that by using the hacks it could be used as standard paly.shadowlink: The thing you aren't understanding is that not only is this not attempting to replace brawl, that it's only meant as an alternative, and in no way will become the standard form of play, but also that no one cares what sakurai intended.
i am not saying that for anyone to not hack the game. I am saying that we shouldn't put the idea of making it a form of standard play like we did with other games.When you buy a baseball, the company that made that baseball expects you to play... baseball with it. However, that doesn't stop you from getting it signed by a pro and just leaving it in a case in your house. Much the same, sakurai made the game, and despite his intentions, once it reaches consumer hands, it's up to them to decide what to do with it. He only has control of the game before it's released. It's up to us to decide how we want to play it, and if we want to mod the game to make it more fun, than so be it. He's not going to stop us. He won't even care.
The thing is im not trying to stop ANYONE from hacking the game.Now, in the event that he does care, then I say all the better. I want him to feel like he's failed again, because he resents our entire community and everything we've done to his game. In his eyes, melee was a failure, a mistake, and he rectified that "failure" in brawl, making a game that was a party game, and only a party game. We're still gonna do what we want with his game, whether he likes it or not, and he has no control or power over us to change that. You don't either, so if you don't have something constructive to add to the thread, you really should just leave. You're not going to convince anyone here with your faulty logic, and all you're doing is wasting your and our time.
Yeah, uh.. we know? That's why we're not obsessed with what Sakurai's intentions were when he designed this game. Because he didn't design the game for us. Why should the competitive community be occupied with what the developers intentions were when those intentions didn't include us from the very beginning?You want to know what the base idea of designers think when making the game?
here I'll give you an idea.
**** competitive gamers. They don't mean a **** thing when it comes to making money.
Simple, it isn't hard to figure out, especially when Sakurai practically broadcasts it on his the smashbros website.
The reason I mentioned it was because everyone sees to be caught up in how Sakurai failed to appease the competitive community and how we should not stand for it despite the fact we are not mainstream.Yeah, uh.. we know? That's why we're not obsessed with what Sakurai's intentions were when he designed this game. Because he didn't design the game for us. Why should the competitive community be occupied with what the developers intentions were when those intentions didn't include us from the very beginning?
We know how Nintendo and Sakurai feel about the competitive community, and that's a plenty good reason why we shouldn't care what they "intended" Smash to become. If we're the forgotten child, then we'll operate on our own intentions. If we can make something out of Brawl that IS intended for competitive play, instead of being left to struggle with the anti-competitive game the developers made, then awesome for us.
I mentioned why i was on that idea in my post.EDIT: TO ABOVE
No one is trying to enforce this as the competitive standard! The OP mentioned it in the opening post, yes, but we shot that down IMMEDIATELY. All of us, even those who want this project to continue! We realize that not only is there no chance of that happening, and that the competitive community has known for AGES that it is stupid to try to force people to play any certain way.
It isn't only tripping that would be removed.I haven't been able to find a **** thing in the lengthy and meaningless posts here. Can anyone asnwer me why there is no chance of it becoming a competative standard? What if the only thing removed was tripping? What is so bad about that?
I can tell you all right now that if they don't rectify the tripping problem in competative games, I won't be going to Brawl tournaments.
The problem is that I really, really, like Brawl, and I think it improves on many things in Melee.
Anyways, why would non-tripping Brawl not become a competitive standard?
This is rather foolish. Who are you to say what will be added and what won't be for tournaments? I asked what was wrong with removing tripping and you answer with it's "going outside the bounds that were established".It isn't only tripping that would be removed.
hit stun would be increased to allow more punishment and more combo.
The general argument against using it as competitive standard is because you are going outside of the bounds that were established.
people hadn't done this in melee nor SSb64 and rarely do communities as a whole agree on such hacks.
This is rather foolish. Who are you to say what will be added and what won't be for tournaments? I asked what was wrong with removing tripping and you answer with it's "going outside the bounds that were established".[p/quote]
1. I never said what hacks were going to be used the OP did.
2. Concerning tripping that isn't the prime issue. The prome issue is basically adding hit stun and combos which would really do nothing in the name of balance. It would mean altering other things so that the game would be balanced and wouln't be a camp fest. Hence because you have to change several things you going outside the bounds of what was established rather than manipulation via wavedashing/L canceling.
Read my previous posts and tell me how I evade it.The bounds that were established are stupid. This is what the arguement is about, and you're simply evading it.
yes which was mentioned earlier.Calling this a 'hack' is inapropriate, if you ask me. It should just be a simple tournament modification for competative play. Again I present you with the fact that numerous games have been completely overhauled using mods/editors, and those new user-made games are now played competatively.
however to say we should mod these games because the boundaries established was stupid means we should do the same for every other game that is imbalanced.
not the case with the smashbros series. They removed glitches and other unintentional bugs they dind't balance gameplay. Not to the extent necessary.And here's another thing people are overlooking here. Programmers constantly update their games to fix things. You see newer versions of old games coming out with fixes and modifications, sometimes things are completely removed.
um no noone has said that.Now, what you people are saying is, just becasue Nintendo isn't going to do it to Brawl, no one should. Well, that's stupid. Brawl will not be recieving any updates at any point in the future, and I believe it is up to the community to maintain it.
What I am saying is that before such hacks are used to modify the game the competitive community as a whole should agree with it.
Refer to my last few posts and read them please.
Tripping isn't the issue though.Why couldn't tournaments host versions of Brawl with tripping simply being the only thing removed?
Read the posts rather than skip them.
The concern is whether on people will agree to modified versions of brawl as a standard for tournaments and competitive play.
in short, read the posts please.
So was I. 95% of the posters here are *******.I was discussing the competitive community NOT mainstream gamers.
Lawl
And how would you know anything about balancing issues?the reason I say this is because increasnig the hitstun and adding combos would not be enough to balance out the game.
i mentioned this earlier did I not?
Saying lets add some more hitstun is really not enough if we are hacking the game in the name of balance.[/quote[
Then I suppose we'd hack it more. We're not increasing hitstun to make it "balanced". We're doing it to make it more competitive. As long as GaW and Snake stay the same, and the ICs grabs allow for infinites, the game will not be balanced.
My Sonic, and a few other Sonics, have lost to dsmash spamming wolf players. Granted, it was my first time playing against Wolf, but I see some major problems, namely, punishment. If you were to increase hitstun on even his uthrow by about 4-5 frames, you could punish with a uthrow uair, which does roughly 20%. Increase the stun on the uair by a little bit more, and hey, uthrow double uair, or uthrow uair fair are suddenly VERY viable punishment options, so you aren't just left with hoping to hit with fair, nair, or the pathetic 4% dash attack.That would work only against idiots that are spamming their smash attacks and even then that doesn't do anything.
How about concerning approach?
you are a sonic main so you know how important approaching is.
he majority of the cahracters can't even get close to a spamming wolf how the hell would increasing hitstun benefit them?
The "halo genre" was not made competitive. It's a FPS, it's competitive. That's how they've been since the first ones came out for computer. An FPS has to be TERRIBLE to not merit being competitive. Or single player only.They weren't already competitive. the competitive community MADE them competitive. Just as Halo genre was made competitive.
So wait, suddenly you're cool with ignoring developers intents?the developer intended to put the core gameplay as is.
I mentioned that any consequence as thereafter was a result of that intent.
Or did the competitive community really manage to get a word in with sakurai concerning the development of SSBM?
And this is a good thing... how?Sakurai saw what had become of SSBM and SSB64, he probably disliked it.
As a result he changed the gameplay in order to make it more noob friendly. its as simple as that.
First off, Halo 1 is MUCH better than 2 or 3, as far as actual gameplay mechanics goes. Second, they don't complain because they still have a competitive game. They didn't take away ammo, slow the game down, increase targeting reticles by 150%, make it so you can auto-avoid pincers, and give you health that recharges in one second. Third, you're comparing an FPS to a fighter. Finally, the sheep mentality is a poor mindset for debate.I don't see halo competitive gamers saying this when halo 1 was changed drastically.
compared to Halo 2 and 3.
Why should we?
Playing a game differently from what he intended is hardly a **** you. Ideally, I'd be able to give him a nice big "**** you", though.Not saying we shuold be tolerant but we don't need to go the extra mile where bascially give a **** you to the designer
They decide the values. They decide the mechanics. They may have a director for programming, but, in general, they have to figure out how to make things work. Have you ever worked on a project, or do you even know someone who has?yes and the programmers did what Sakurai wanted. It isn't like the programmers get a **** say in anything.
He's not responsible for the infinite on Ness/Lucas, or jab-locking, or Falco/D3's CGs. Well, maybe D3's. The programmers and testers are responsible for those oversights.They do as they're told so Sakurai was responsible for brawl as it is now.
I actually do have an idea as to what was going on for the testing, at least for Brawl. They wrote up Kirby's swallowcide as being too difficult to escape, originally, they wrote up numerous problems with d3, and fixed random bugs involving transformations.Wrong we were't there so we do not know what was going on conerning the testing.
you think they tested Brawl and found that ness and Lucas could get infinite grabbed by a large amount of the crew and then decided, hey lets leave that in.
Or Fox's drill shine infinite?
or wobbling?
bull ****
For Melee, they fixed Sheik's CG, changed Marth and Falco's dairs, and various other things. Drill-shining and wobbling weren't really known until after EU release, methinks. And yeah, Melee was created because of their errors and oversights. GGs
No, but I AM saying that he did not decide the exact percent behind every single attack, and probably didn't decide to incorporate diminishing returns. He can be blamed for tripping, how slow the game is, and, in all likelyhood, the removal of hitstun and l-cancelling. Chances are pretty high he can't even tell you the sending angles for most of the attacks.So you're telling me that Sakurai just said, hey make this game and the programmers made it and did not even once go back and have him look at it and determine if its what he wanted?
Uh, yeah, they did. The EU release has a LOT of changes made to it to better balance it. Do your research before making erroneous claims.Are you also saying that they ent back and balanced melee for the sake of competitive gamers?Hell no they dind't.
No, I don't think they said that. I think they said, "since we're going to re-release it in Europe, let's fix some of these things that look to be problematic". See Sheik's dthrow.The majority of re-released games is simply to take out bugs or glitches that were unintentional that hadn't been found through testing.
you remember hot coffee?
programmers leave loads of crap on the game and its not uncommon to have several bugs and glitches go by unfound.
you don't honestly believe that they said melee is unbalanced lets go fix it.
They ignored my posts regarding exactly what controls it.As for the testers we already know Sakurai intended for tripping to be in the game. no one ignored you. Sakurai said it himself.
They did find wavedashing, and, chances are, l-cancelling. See "wave fall special". L-cancelling was something reincorporated from 64, but rebalanced. Testers DO think about competitive implications. They themselves are normally gamers. I know that the guy I've talked to has mentioned numerous things they changed for "competitive" aspects. GG not knowing your stuff.Testers are just that, testers. they don't get a say, they don't find wavedashing and L canceling and many other tactics found by the competitive community. They test thats it. they don't think about competitive implications.
Or if it seems to ruin or unbalance gameplay, they report it. See Kirby's swallowcide, and the removal of laserlocking in the US version.they think something happened that was unintentional in the process they report it.
Actually, they did. It was dubbed the "wave fall special", as you can find by looking in debug mode of Melee. Wavedashing isn't in this game because it uses the Havok engine. GGs on failing, yet once again.Obviously they did not catch wavedashing since Sakurai removed it this game.
No way, really?obviously Sakurai wanted the game to be different he said it himself.
You seriously compared Atari, from waaaaaaaay back in the day, to a modern day corporation? Yeah, programmers don't have a say in a large part of the process, but they still have to figure out the values that do and don't work.Yeah the programmers did all the work but thats because they are the grunts that do the work, they don't design the game.
That's why i said Sakurai is responsible for the issue concerning brawl, because the programmers don't often get a say in things.
Hell when Atari was still big the programmers didn't have a **** say in anything and often times were ignored.
hell there was a whole ****storm when their names werne't even given credit for making the game.
You don't have 1 programmer and 1 designer on a game of this magnitude. Poor analogy.just as you have the designer and the seamstress.
Seamstress makes the stuff but the designer calls the shots and is ultimately responsible for everything that happens.
On the flipside, if we colour outside the lines after placing masking tape on top of the paper, so that we're able to, what is he going to do about it? Sick you on us?Ah well thats a pity then. If Sakurai doesn't want us coloring outside the lines and makes it so that outside the lines everything turns white then tahts just his intentions. Can't ge tpissed about that.
We broke that game, and abused it's engine. Don't act like you know what you're talking about if you didn't even play competitively. Things like the Black Hole Glitch were not "intended" by Sakurai. Hell, I'm fairly sure he had a conniption fit the first time he saw waveshining. We blended colours. Hell, if you want to liken it to a magical colouring book where you can't colour outside the lines, then we took and broke the crayons in half, performed magic on them, and proceeded to draw shapes outside the lines.1st: Pity. If Sakurai made it so that the colors turned white outside the lines then thats just his intente. go ahead and color but you have to stay within the lines. If he says you can only use red, green and blue that doesn't stop you from coloring it wwith only one or two colors.
In melee we basically did that, we never went outside the lines, we never changed the lines.
We were given several colors and made use of them so that we would get something else. We didn't go get a different crayon.
We don't need to make demands. We can do what we want. We're not Sakurai's daughter, we're competitive gamers.Second, of course not he's out to just cash his check and amke a buck nothing new.
Third, irrelevant considering we aren't in any position ot make any demands.
us changing a few values is different because WE never had an opinion on the game's design.
We aren't the ones designing Sakurai was.
I don't need to ask. You just proved my point right there. They took steps to rectify something that ruined the game. We want to keep Brawl from being an infinite heavy campfest. That's not fun to us, so we're changing it.Even pros go so far out as to ban the imp.
Why?
Simply because when trace had the imp you might as well put your DS down and let yourself get killed.
Don't believe me go ahead and ask.
The majority of you aren't competitive players. You're scrubs that found a game that's really easy to play, and think you know what you're doing. Most of you haven't even placed top 5 in a tournament outside of GameStop and Play N Trade, and probably never will. You can keep attending these tournaments, we won't stop you, but we want an alternative for us.im not trying to stop you from playing it but im not gonna let someone say this is the standard form of play if the majority of competitive players disagreed.
It will allow for better punishment options, and remove the random **** that can cost you a match. If Wolf dsmash spams, and you run in and grab him in the current version of Brawl, you're not following that grab up. You risk taking 12% minimum every time you try to punish him, and it's a LOT easier for him to spam the dsmash than it is for you to grab. You'll do maaaaaaybe the same amount of damage to him from the grab, but he can go right back to spamming that dsmash. Granted, some characters can run up, shield, and dsmash right back (ala Zelda), but the game is still incredibly defensive and campy. If you were able to do even a 25% combo from punishing him once, it would deter the campy sort of play that is prevalent in Brawl's current metagame.it is why i said make a poll, if they say yes hack away. but I guarantee that increasing hitstun and removing tripping won't do anything for the metagame.
Yeah, list them. Fighting games are the only ones I care about. While you're at it, tell me how many tournaments you've gone to, and how high you've placed. If you can manage it, I'd like to know if you've ever made money off them, as well.I've played several games competitively, don't insinuate anything.
Want me to make a list or are you going to just ignore it?
Now, let's look at people announcing competitive gaming. Go listen to the old MLG announcers for SSBM, and tell me they can tell when a bad action is bad, before the player is punished. You have to intimately know the genre you're looking at to know what's good and what's bad. Sports casters (the good ones) still know what's going on, and, in general, the sport has been around for so long that's it's really really easy to see a good play and a bad one. Stack that on top of the fact that most of them say it's a bad play after the other team has been punished and, voila, the magic is dispelled. Good job using another terrible analogy.oh and to shoot your stupid idea down.
Sports casters don't need to have played competitively, there are several who never played football competitively and guess what? they can still tell you when a bad play is a bad play.
Competitive gamers such as myself are dictating how WE want to play with each other. We're not saying you can't play 4 player, FFA, with FS on. We're just saying we want to play this way. You're the one trying to tell us how to play. Cute, though, trying to say the minority doesn't matter. I suppose I could drop myself down to your level for a second and insinuate that the Jews didn't matter in Nazi Germany, eh? They were the minority, after all. Who cares what they thought?I also lawl at ramblings about how the competitive gamers, the smallest group of gamers in general, should be the ones to dictate how a game should or should not be.
Really let's completely ignore the fact that we do not dictate how the game is designed.
its really amusing.
Why should we blindly accept the developer's intentions? Even if Sakurai came up to me and said, "I do not want Brawl to ever be competitive. It should only be played 4 player, FFA, with items, on Hanenbow" I sure as hell wouldn't listen. Hell, I'd tell him to get on the plane back to his island and never come here again.then I shall say this as well.
While we do not know the full content of a developers intentions (sakurai has given ideas as to what he intended brawl to be) we should not disregard their intentions nor claim that we know how the game should or should bot be. We did not design the game we only played it. I want wavedashing and L canceling and apparently Sakurai did not.
Why do you worship someone who doesn't give two ****s about you? I'm really quite baffled as to why you defend him when you KNOW that your opinion doesn't matter to him. I don't respect people that don't respect me. Why should I respect his ideals when he goes out of his way to trounce mine?It's a pity you do not care because when it comes to the designer, the competitive community doesn't really mean **** in their eyes when it comes to cashing in the check.
Yeah, that's why GGXX has had 4 iterations, all with previous balancing issues addressed. Competitive gamers are the ones that buy your game 6 years after it came out, because their old copy died. They're the ones that will buy multiple versions of the same game. They're the ones that make you the most money, in the long run. If every developer thought like you did, then we wouldn't have games like GGXXAC, or SFIIHT, or anything like that. Truth is, Sakurai doesn't give a **** about us. Other fighting game developers do, because they know that we make them the most money, in the long run.You want to know what the base idea of designers think when making the game?
here I'll give you an idea.
**** competitive gamers. They don't mean a **** thing when it comes to making money.
See above.Simple, it isn't hard to figure out, especially when Sakurai practically broadcasts it on his the smashbros website.
I'm not telling you to. I'm claiming that you already do. You seem to worship the man's ideas, regardless of how flawed, simply because he was the "designer".I find it kinda sad that you're telling me to go suck Sakurai's teat considering I do agree with you on the point that Sakurai basically screwed over competitive gamers.
We agree on something, lolololol.What do I expect though, people get extremely stupid when they become emotional.
EDIT: After this post, I'm done reading through any super long posts made by you, ShadowLink. It's a chore having to read through your run-on sentences with very little capitalization or punctuation. In conjunction, we're just going in circles. This is like arguing abortion. No one is going to win at this rate, so just drop it. You have your opinions, we have ours. You might notice how you're the only one consistently arguing with mine and OPs posts. Everyone else just said "I don't like this" and moved on.
You're right. Completely and utterly right. Video games are for fun. A lot of people (although by no means the majority) would have more fun playing brawl this way, and that's why this project was started. If you don't wanna play this way, then don't. You've always got regular brawl to go to if you like that more.I'm sort of liking the idea of making Brawl exactly like Melee in every way.
Can you tell I was being sarcastic? Hopefully it should have been obvious. If Brawl turns into Melee, then what would Brawl be? Melee! Can't people ever play Brawl as it is?
I mean, that's what makes something unique and fun! It's not a question of what people say works best competitively, because what it all boils down to change. What people are used to it tournaments is Melee styled gameplay, and those who can't handle the change into Brawl are trying to pull this sort of thing off.
Playing a video game in itself is about having fun, isn't it? Or did that sort of thing disappear a while ago? I'm sorry, but the idea of squeezing every drop of technical skills out of Brawl and changing it so much just doesn't sound too fun to me.
It would be interesting to use this for fun and comparison or whatever, but I think we should leave Brawl be and let it be its own animal.
Why are you here?I'm sort of liking the idea of making Brawl exactly like Melee in every way.
Can you tell I was being sarcastic? Hopefully it should have been obvious. If Brawl turns into Melee, then what would Brawl be? Melee! Can't people ever play Brawl as it is?
I mean, that's what makes something unique and fun! It's not a question of what people say works best competitively, because what it all boils down to change. What people are used to it tournaments is Melee styled gameplay, and those who can't handle the change into Brawl are trying to pull this sort of thing off.
Playing a video game in itself is about having fun, isn't it? Or did that sort of thing disappear a while ago? I'm sorry, but the idea of squeezing every drop of technical skills out of Brawl and changing it so much just doesn't sound too fun to me.
It would be interesting to use this for fun and comparison or whatever, but I think we should leave Brawl be and let it be its own animal.
I'm sort of liking the idea of making Brawl exactly like Melee in every way.
Can you tell I was being sarcastic? Hopefully it should have been obvious. If Brawl turns into Melee, then what would Brawl be? Melee! Can't people ever play Brawl as it is?
I mean, that's what makes something unique and fun! It's not a question of what people say works best competitively, because what it all boils down to change. What people are used to it tournaments is Melee styled gameplay, and those who can't handle the change into Brawl are trying to pull this sort of thing off.
Playing a video game in itself is about having fun, isn't it? Or did that sort of thing disappear a while ago? I'm sorry, but the idea of squeezing every drop of technical skills out of Brawl and changing it so much just doesn't sound too fun to me.
It would be interesting to use this for fun and comparison or whatever, but I think we should leave Brawl be and let it be its own animal.
No, that's not the question.Why are you here?
Oh.So was I. 95% of the posters here are *******.
From experience and reading of accounts from reputable sources of course.And how would you know anything about balancing issues?
Yes but as you said it would mean having to alter the physics of the game itself.Then I suppose we'd hack it more. We're not increasing hitstun to make it "balanced". We're doing it to make it more competitive. As long as GaW and Snake stay the same, and the ICs grabs allow for infinites, the game will not be balanced.
Same. For sonic the issue is more concerning punishment since he obviously has no problem getting up close to an opponent.My Sonic, and a few other Sonics, have lost to dsmash spamming wolf players. Granted, it was my first time playing against Wolf, but I see some major problems, namely, punishment. If you were to increase hitstun on even his uthrow by about 4-5 frames, you could punish with a uthrow uair, which does roughly 20%. Increase the stun on the uair by a little bit more, and hey, uthrow double uair, or uthrow uair fair are suddenly VERY viable punishment options, so you aren't just left with hoping to hit with fair, nair, or the pathetic 4% dash attack.
Um actually they do.The "halo genre" was not made competitive. It's a FPS, it's competitive. That's how they've been since the first ones came out for computer. An FPS has to be TERRIBLE to not merit being competitive. Or single player only.
So wait, suddenly you're cool with ignoring developers intents?
And this is a good thing... how?
First off, Halo 1 is MUCH better than 2 or 3, as far as actual gameplay mechanics goes. Second, they don't complain because they still have a competitive game. They didn't take away ammo, slow the game down, increase targeting reticles by 150%, make it so you can auto-avoid pincers, and give you health that recharges in one second. Third, you're comparing an FPS to a fighter. Finally, the sheep mentality is a poor mindset for debate.
Yes actually. Most of the time however we were left entirely by ourself to decide things with the designer having little do with testing and other things.Playing a game differently from what he intended is hardly a **** you. Ideally, I'd be able to give him a nice big "**** you", though.
They decide the values. They decide the mechanics. They may have a director for programming, but, in general, they have to figure out how to make things work. Have you ever worked on a project, or do you even know someone who has?
Yes but those appear lesser compared to wobbling and drill shining.Things that were overlooked during simple testing, I doubt they got the idea that wobbling and dirll shining were possible.He's not responsible for the infinite on Ness/Lucas, or jab-locking, or Falco/D3's CGs. Well, maybe D3's. The programmers and testers are responsible for those oversights.
I actually do have an idea as to what was going on for the testing, at least for Brawl. They wrote up Kirby's swallowcide as being too difficult to escape, originally, they wrote up numerous problems with d3, and fixed random bugs involving transformations.
For Melee, they fixed Sheik's CG, changed Marth and Falco's dairs, and various other things. Drill-shining and wobbling weren't really known until after EU release, methinks. And yeah, Melee was created because of their errors and oversights. GGs
Yeah I am not saying he was involved so far as the angles and damage percentage of the attacks, just the overall framework of the gameplay.Interimofzeal said:No, but I AM saying that he did not decide the exact percent behind every single attack, and probably didn't decide to incorporate diminishing returns. He can be blamed for tripping, how slow the game is, and, in all likelyhood, the removal of hitstun and l-cancelling. Chances are pretty high he can't even tell you the sending angles for most of the attacks.
I don't know all of the changes that were made to the EU version but I don't believe its as balanced as it could have been.Interimofzeal said:Uh, yeah, they did. The EU release has a LOT of changes made to it to better balance it. Do your research before making erroneous claims.
Yes but who were they thinking of when they thought problematic?Interimofzeal said:No, I don't think they said that. I think they said, "since we're going to re-release it in Europe, let's fix some of these things that look to be problematic". See Sheik's dthrow.
Ah that's a pity.Interimofzeal said:They ignored my posts regarding exactly what controls it.
Of course they found L canceling it would be near impossible for them to not have found it. Mainly because of SSB64 since they do pay attention to the going ons of gamers for some time. (another reason why I think Sakurai hates competitive aspects)Interimofzeal said:They did find wavedashing, and, chances are, l-cancelling. See "wave fall special". L-cancelling was something reincorporated from 64, but rebalanced. Testers DO think about competitive implications. They themselves are normally gamers. I know that the guy I've talked to has mentioned numerous things they changed for "competitive" aspects. GG not knowing your stuff.
in SSBB or SSBm I kinda got lost on which you're discussing here soz.Interimofzeal said:Or if it seems to ruin or unbalance gameplay, they report it. See Kirby's swallowcide, and the removal of laserlocking in the US version.
I know why wavedashing is not in this game lovely way to assume.Interimofzeal said:Actually, they did. It was dubbed the "wave fall special", as you can find by looking in debug mode of Melee. Wavedashing isn't in this game because it uses the Havok engine. GGs on failing, yet once again.
YAH RLYInterimofzeal said:No way, really?
Of course they do but the designer is eventually going to see the work has been done and approve or disapprove it. At least whatever he has seen which is why I do think Sakurai did place more attention to the development game than most despite the fact he dislikes working on it.Interimofzeal said:You seriously compared Atari, from waaaaaaaay back in the day, to a modern day corporation? Yeah, programmers don't have a say in a large part of the process, but they still have to figure out the values that do and don't work.
Analogies don't have to be exact they only need to be similar and bring out the same idea.Interimofzeal said:You don't have 1 programmer and 1 designer on a game of this magnitude. Poor analogy.
I find it funny that you're assuming I am on his side.Interimofzeal said:On the flipside, if we colour outside the lines after placing masking tape on top of the paper, so that we're able to, what is he going to do about it? Sick you on us?
I made that analogy earlier where I said we were still in the lines and while Sakurai did give us a set amount of colors, we colored differently and mixed them to get different colors.Interimofzeal said:We broke that game, and abused it's engine. Don't act like you know what you're talking about if you didn't even play competitively. Things like the Black Hole Glitch were not "intended" by Sakurai. Hell, I'm fairly sure he had a conniption fit the first time he saw waveshining. We blended colours. Hell, if you want to liken it to a magical colouring book where you can't colour outside the lines, then we took and broke the crayons in half, performed magic on them, and proceeded to draw shapes outside the lines.
We do need to make demands and we do need to raise our voices. I would much rather have the programmer make the game good and in a way that can appease us rather than mess with coding that isn't meant for the consumer to change.Interimofzeal said:We don't need to make demands. We can do what we want. We're not Sakurai's daughter, we're competitive gamers.
The problem being that not only is it absically going to use the usually locked crayon box but it also may not sit well with the others.Interimofzeal said:I don't need to ask. You just proved my point right there. They took steps to rectify something that ruined the game. We want to keep Brawl from being an infinite heavy campfest. That's not fun to us, so we're changing it.
I placed top 4 in my local tournament with Sonic.Interimofzeal said:The majority of you aren't competitive players. You're scrubs that found a game that's really easy to play, and think you know what you're doing. Most of you haven't even placed top 5 in a tournament outside of GameStop and Play N Trade, and probably never will. You can keep attending these tournaments, we won't stop you, but we want an alternative for us.
A good wolf isn't going to Dsmash spam. He's far more likely to laser spam you should know this just as well as I do.Interimofzeal said:It will allow for better punishment options, and remove the random **** that can cost you a match. If Wolf dsmash spams, and you run in and grab him in the current version of Brawl, you're not following that grab up. You risk taking 12% minimum every time you try to punish him, and it's a LOT easier for him to spam the dsmash than it is for you to grab. You'll do maaaaaaybe the same amount of damage to him from the grab, but he can go right back to spamming that dsmash. Granted, some characters can run up, shield, and dsmash right back (ala Zelda), but the game is still incredibly defensive and campy. If you were able to do even a 25% combo from punishing him once, it would deter the campy sort of play that is prevalent in Brawl's current metagame.
The only one (fighting game) that I can say I've had the oppurtunity to actually play often was melee.Interimofzeal said:Yeah, list them. Fighting games are the only ones I care about. While you're at it, tell me how many tournaments you've gone to, and how high you've placed. If you can manage it, I'd like to know if you've ever made money off them, as well.
Oh so I guess that when people saw the infamous dark rain combo they said that Azen's DI was bad BEFORE Rain extended his combo and nailed him with a knee.Interimofzeal said:Now, let's look at people announcing competitive gaming. Go listen to the old MLG announcers for SSBM, and tell me they can tell when a bad action is bad, before the player is punished. You have to intimately know the genre you're looking at to know what's good and what's bad. Sports casters (the good ones) still know what's going on, and, in general, the sport has been around for so long that's it's really really easy to see a good play and a bad one. Stack that on top of the fact that most of them say it's a bad play after the other team has been punished and, voila, the magic is dispelled. Good job using another terrible analogy.
I am not saying that you should play this way or that.Interimofzeal said:Competitive gamers such as myself are dictating how WE want to play with each other. We're not saying you can't play 4 player, FFA, with FS on. We're just saying we want to play this way. You're the one trying to tell us how to play. Cute, though, trying to say the minority doesn't matter. I suppose I could drop myself down to your level for a second and insinuate that the Jews didn't matter in Nazi Germany, eh? They were the minority, after all. Who cares what they thought?
Never said we should blindly accept the developers intentions.Interimofzeal said:Why should we blindly accept the developer's intentions? Even if Sakurai came up to me and said, "I do not want Brawl to ever be competitive. It should only be played 4 player, FFA, with items, on Hanenbow" I sure as hell wouldn't listen. Hell, I'd tell him to get on the plane back to his island and never come here again.
I am baffled as to the idea why you think I am defending him.Interimofzeal said:Why do you worship someone who doesn't give two ****s about you? I'm really quite baffled as to why you defend him when you KNOW that your opinion doesn't matter to him. I don't respect people that don't respect me. Why should I respect his ideals when he goes out of his way to trounce mine?
Except Smash bros isn't a true fighting game. Its more of a party game. Why the hell do you keep comparing the ideas of a fighting game developer to a party game developer.Interimofzeal said:Yeah, that's why GGXX has had 4 iterations, all with previous balancing issues addressed. Competitive gamers are the ones that buy your game 6 years after it came out, because their old copy died. They're the ones that will buy multiple versions of the same game. They're the ones that make you the most money, in the long run. If every developer thought like you did, then we wouldn't have games like GGXXAC, or SFIIHT, or anything like that. Truth is, Sakurai doesn't give a **** about us. Other fighting game developers do, because they know that we make them the most money, in the long run.
Couldn't say it any better than myself.Interimofzeal said:See above.
Which would be contradictory to the fact where I AGREED with you that Sakurai hates the competitive community.Interimofzeal said:I'm not telling you to. I'm claiming that you already do. You seem to worship the man's ideas, regardless of how flawed, simply because he was the "designer".
You're not on my priority list when it comes to using proper punctuation.Interimofzeal said:EDIT: After this post, I'm done reading through any super long posts made by you, ShadowLink. It's a chore having to read through your run-on sentences with very little capitalization or punctuation. In conjunction, we're just going in circles. This is like arguing abortion. No one is going to win at this rate, so just drop it. You have your opinions, we have ours. You might notice how you're the only one consistently arguing with mine and OPs posts. Everyone else just said "I don't like this" and moved on.
Way to stick it to people whining about a project that won't affect them in the slightest. Seriously, if all these people think Brawl should be a party game, then why aren't they off partying instead of arguing with a minority group who really just want to play Brawl like it has some semblance of competitiveness? What did the competitive minority ever do to warrant this kind of backlash?InterimOfZeal said:The majority of you aren't competitive players. You're scrubs that found a game that's really easy to play, and think you know what you're doing. Most of you haven't even placed top 5 in a tournament outside of GameStop and Play N Trade, and probably never will. You can keep attending these tournaments, we won't stop you, but we want an alternative for us.
Those guilty of the same crime should not mention itYuna's a troll. He'd just attack your character, much like you've been attacking mine.
I cannot remember anything from that long ago.How many people were at your tournament, and were there any ranked players from your state (talking about the top 4)?
Meh as I said I never claimed myself to be the best but that I played competitively.15th in any tournament under 300 attendees is garbage. LoVo placed 2nd and 3rd consistently, and ***** Forward's Fox in NM. Link only has problems with Sheik. Marth is an even match, if not in Link's favor. Fox does decent, but once Link lands a hit, it's GG, Fox.
Lawl.No johns on the proper punctuation.
True enough.Also, Fox's Usmash was nerfed, and I ~believe~, but could be wrong, that Marth's fair had some properties changed. The made a LOT of small changes to the EU SSBM that casual players would never have noticed, and it was most definitely for the competitive community.
True but oddly enough I find that they can have issues dealing with characters with projectiles or those that are faster than them.Regardless, Imma test and see if we're on the same page:
We're going to work on this. If we actually get it off the ground, we're going to ask players that know what they're talking about for their opinions as to what hitstun goes where, for how long, and all that. We can't fix Ganon. Bowser can approach, much as DK can. He wouldn't have huge combos because, let's face it, Bowser would become ****. Ganon would probably get a little more hitstun on a few things, to allow him to actually combo or something once he finally catches up to that annoying *** Pit, but, in general, we can't fix him.
The main reason I mention the competitive community is because of such cases such as wobbling. Where it was banned in some tournaments but accepted in others where as previously I believe it was completely allowed for a period of time.The game is going to be modified, but we're going to need professional opinions. That's all we're asking SWF. We're not going to wait for their approval, especially given how most people on the boards are even more oblivious to the mechanics of competitive fighters than you. At least you have competitive FPS for reference. Most of these people don't even know that much. Their opinions don't matter, we're doing what we want.
This entire post is full of win in its entiretyYuna's a troll. He'd just attack your character, much like you've been attacking mine.
How many people were at your tournament, and were there any ranked players from your state (talking about the top 4)?
15th in any tournament under 300 attendees is garbage. LoVo placed 2nd and 3rd consistently, and ***** Forward's Fox in NM. Link only has problems with Sheik. Marth is an even match, if not in Link's favor. Fox does decent, but once Link lands a hit, it's GG, Fox.
No johns on the proper punctuation.
Also, Fox's Usmash was nerfed, and I ~believe~, but could be wrong, that Marth's fair had some properties changed. The made a LOT of small changes to the EU SSBM that casual players would never have noticed, and it was most definitely for the competitive community.
Regardless, Imma test and see if we're on the same page:
We're going to work on this. If we actually get it off the ground, we're going to ask players that know what they're talking about for their opinions as to what hitstun goes where, for how long, and all that. We can't fix Ganon. Bowser can approach, much as DK can. He wouldn't have huge combos because, let's face it, Bowser would become ****. Ganon would probably get a little more hitstun on a few things, to allow him to actually combo or something once he finally catches up to that annoying *** Pit, but, in general, we can't fix him.
The game is going to be modified, but we're going to need professional opinions. That's all we're asking SWF. We're not going to wait for their approval, especially given how most people on the boards are even more oblivious to the mechanics of competitive fighters than you. At least you have competitive FPS for reference. Most of these people don't even know that much. Their opinions don't matter, we're doing what we want.
Hmm true enough.Wolf's projectile is crap. Learn to perfect shield. Pit's arrows are alright, but unless you're a super slow character, they aren't all that bad. I'm not claiming you have to be the best to understand how a competitive fighter works, but you have to be good, in the least. Big, slow characters will always have problems with fast projectiles, and fast characters/characters with a better pressure game than fatty. Look at potemkin. He has problems with May, simply because of how hard of a time he has getting near her. He would probably have problems with Chipp, if a single combo didn't almost completely kill him. Slower characters will always have the disadvantage on approaching because they net higher rewards every time they hit.
I know which is why I was hesitant somewhat to mention it,The game has been out in the US for what... two months? I'm willing to wager that the tournament you took 4th at either didn't exist, or was full of nobodies.
I make hacks for the DS and I receive tons of negative views from people regardless of how beneficial the hack is for the game.The only people that look at the "hacks" negatively are you, and a billion other scrubs. Or perhaps just them, if you've changed your stance.
Really?As an aside, a good Wolf player will abuse his shine, not his laser, much like a good Olimar will abuse his whistle more than any other move.
The SFII competitive community says hi.it wouldn't be normal to hack a game just for tournaments.
The majority of tournaments concerning competitive games usually don't use hacks.The SFII competitive community says hi.
Bolded part=Act your age not your shoe size siegknight.thanks for putting that quote in your sig. Your insanity degrades it and makes it useless for the people I don't like around here who put it there.
Its the best thing you've ever done I'm sure
What matters is the content not the person.I don't know. Its a quote from a former semi-troll although its not particularly a trollish quote in its contents. *shrug*
This pertains to what exactly?2008?!! I THINK THAT YEAR MIGHT BE SOMETIME AROUND HERE.
HISTORIES SON
Mmk makes sense.my insane sense of humor and how he added 2008 as the date of the quote to sound all eloquent. But it came off as kind of hysterical to me
If I did a poll, it would be posted in the backroom. That's not to say that I think the backroom isn't full of idiots, it's just that the concentration is a little lower. Dun care what the boards think, yadda yadda.[/qute]
True. It makes you feel al ittle alienated somewhat >.<
What about if Wolf is at a distance.Also, you've obviously never played a good Wolf. His projectile lags too much for him to do anything after it if it's perfect shielded. Lucario's is a much better projectile, for numerous reasons.
usually when I face a wolf with Ike I find that typically they usually attack from a distance so that they can lessen the risks of getting punished after being perfect shielded.
I have no issue since with Sonic I can usually close the distance after perfect shielding very easily but find it more difficult for Ike.
Granted the sword offers good range but it can be frustrating if the wolf keeps playing keep away.
We just discussed this over IM briefly. Just PM one of us your screen name if you want to talk or help now, I guess. DB wanted to get a website with forums up and running after finals were over. I think he is still looking for a place to host it.Sai, Colorado would be happy to run large-scale tournaments using modified Brawl. Do you guys actually have a thread/when do you discuss all this? You've got our full support, and we'll do what we can to help.