USB Gecko is the new Action Replay! (added potential goals)

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Quite cool i guess

 

[TheJalapeno]

What a pathetic excuse.

"Let's change the game because it's different from melee lol"

This is a complete *******ization of what Sakurai wanted because a few whiny gamers are to pathetic to play the game for what it is.

My solution? Get better at Brawl.

 

[Cookiez]

Altering Brawl wouldn't make it Melee 2.0. It would make it Brawl 2.0.

Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[NES n00b]

This is a complete *******ization of what Sakurai wanted because a few whiny gamers are to pathetic to play the game for what it is.

Good, so now we can play a game that is hopefully deep then right? Cause you know he didn't want the game to be competitive at all so playing it in such a way is already bad enough so we can change it right?

Why do you care anyways? "You only play Brawl cause you can't play Melee lolz" is the only statement I could think of that fits your logic. Go complain to PC modders that they can't adapt to some kind of hardware or software.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

This is a complete *******ization of what Sakurai wanted because a few whiny gamers are to pathetic to play the game for what it is.

We're playing Brawl competitively, and in tournaments. That's already a complete basterdization of what Sakurai wanted.

 

[ShadowLink84]

ShadowLink, do you even know what you're talking about, as far as mathematics goes? 1+1=2, period. .99999 repeating ~can~ equal one, but only with faulty math. 2+2 doesn't equal 3. If it does, give me the proofs for it.

Stop *****ing about people playing with a game how they want to.

There is a difference between playing the game how you want and then completely altering the game's core mechanics and then saying how it could be used as standard play.
As I said last I saw, we weren't using the AR to mess with melee.

As for *****ng about codes when did I ever do sucha thing?
I hack codes why should I care whether people use them or not.
The point is to not use them as a means of standard play.
Don't assume things , you make an *** of both of us.

As for mathematics. The point of the argument concerns the idea of concepts not the actual math itself.
1+1=2
.999 can equal 1
Don't state something that I've already stated.

What I am speaking of is the concept of mathematics itself. The idea of methematics is a concept that is widely accepted, it is not an absolute truth that 1+1=2 since the concept of 1+1=2 is not a universal truth.
I am not discussing the actual mathematics I am discussing the IDEAS of mathematics, the concept of 1+1=2.
NOT the fact that 1+1=2
This is why I also mentioned why science does not aim to be PROVEN.

Read the entirety of my post before you respond and if you do not understand, ask me to further explain. Or even better, read everything holistically rather than separately. saves me time from having to explain myself again.

 

[DragonBlade]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op1V5eWpTQQ

The Wii homebrew channel is coming along nicely. I would love to make this mod bootable from it, but its going to be a lot of work, so no promises.

 

[leafgreen386]

I just played melee again, and realized... that game is simply PERFECT. Nothing this does will ever make a better game than melee, and it'll take a whole lot more time and effort. The brawl nubs are right. Just play melee, guys. It's cheaper, easier, and in all likelihood more fun to boot.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

You're citing wikipedia as the reference for "advanced level mathematicians". Try using a reputable math website instead.

Although, since you used the article for reference, and claimed all "advanced level mathematicians" accept it as being true, I think I should point out something from the article.

Number systems in which the equality fails can be constructed, but only outside the standard real number system used in elementary mathematics.

Notice how they say that it can be proven wrong, but only if you use a number system outside of basic mathematics?

GG, no rm.

Also, why'd you bring up the "ideas" of math, rather than the solid facts, when arguing with someone who said math is solid facts? Sure, it can be messed with, and there are some oddities and quirks (e^i(pi)+1=0 is pretty neat, non?), but, in general, math is incredibly solid.

I fail to see why it factors into this discussion, anyway. If you're talking about the "ideas" of math, then why are you so closed minded as to "ideas" people are presenting for making Brawl more to their tastes? When you claim .999...=1, you're manipulating the numbers to get what you want. How is changing the coding in Brawl any different? Better yet, how is it different than what people have been doing with Street Fighter II, or WC3, or anything of that sort? Don't patronize those who seem to have a firmer grasp on things than yourself, kiddo. /flame

Jalapeno, I don't think you really have any room telling people to get better at Brawl. Last I checked, Ken was running nigh-undefeated in Cali. Isn't that your state? Go do something about it. Then again, chances are pretty high you can't even take top 10 in a SoCal tournament. Just saying.

I don't even need to point out the irony of you being on SWF, a site that embodies the *******ization of Sakurai's desires for Brawl.

 

[Rampage]

oh my...OH MY

YES...DO IT ***ORT DO IT NAOOO!!!!!!

 

[Maikeru17]

And essentially counter-strike and half-life are the same thing, you are still shooting people, no technique has changed, you dont shoot him in the leg for more damage... so instead of playing brawl on score play it on coins

Are you dumb?
I'm going to assume so, since you're from AZ; half-******** and your brother's your father, correct?

Counter-Strike and Half-Life are VERY, VERY different in terms of core mechanics and BASIC game play, let alone CS has advanced techniques that aren't present in HL.
Get your **** straight before you pretend to know everything.
CS has IMMENSE amount of recoil on guns, bunny hopping works different, not to mention hit boxes are very different as well as receive different damage.

One shot to the head from an AWP will kill. One shot to the chest from an AWP will also kill. One shot to the legs with an AWP will NOT kill.
Certain weapons do very moot damage to legs and chest compared to other weapons as well.

HL? None of this is present.
Also, learn to crouch-hop in CS; it's quite useful, although banned from 98% of all tournaments.

-Nox`

 

[ShadowLink84]

Y


Also, why'd you bring up the "ideas" of math, rather than the solid facts, when arguing with someone who said math is solid facts? Sure, it can be messed with, and there are some oddities and quirks (e^i(pi)+1=0 is pretty neat, non?), but, in general, math is incredibly solid.

The main reason for bringing up the "ideas" of math was in resposne to someone who said that there science and amth are among perfect truths. His was to counter the perfect truth argument not ana rgument about mathematics.
It is why I said look at my post holistically rather than individually.

I fail to see why it factors into this discussion, anyway.

Little though it gives the wrong idea of there being such a thing as perfect truth.

If you're talking about the "ideas" of math, then why are you so closed minded as to "ideas" people are presenting for making Brawl more to their tastes? When you claim .999...=1, you're manipulating the numbers to get what you want. How is changing the coding in Brawl any different? Better yet, how is it different than what people have been doing with Street Fighter II, or WC3, or anything of that sort? Don't patronize those who seem to have a firmer grasp on things than yourself, kiddo. /flame

Wrong totally ****ing wrong. Don't flame if its a **** poor one.
Don't flame someone if you cannot tell the difference between manipulation and change.
Seriously I really hate when people bring up examples and use them poorly.

What people are doing in SF2,WC3, SSB64,SSBM is MANIPULATION.
THey are taking what exists as is and manipulating it accordingly.
Wave dashing is manipulation of the existing physics in the game.
NOTHING is being changed.

What is being discussed are hacks that change the core gameplay.
Basically not manipulating but changing which is completely different.
You're making hitstun last longer, adding L canceling, wavedashing, removing tripping.
THATS change.

Since we've been discussing Math I shall show you.
3+3=6 in base of ten.
The hacks they are discussing of using are equivalent to taking 3+3=6
and making it 3+3=31 while remaining in base ten.
Thats CHANGE not manipulation.
Manipulation is .99999=1 Why?
Simply because you can manipulate it to be 1 without breaking the rules that have been established.
THose hacks break the rules, they change the core gameplay.
BIG difference.

how do I know?
I hack games. I make them do things outside their original given operation.
Those hacks that change the hitstun and add l canceling and wavedashing are the same equivalent of using an infinite health cheat.
They break the original limits of the game they don't manipulate them.

The coding is being CHANGED not manipulated.
The gameplay is being CHANGED not manipulated.
Big difference.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

lmfao, don't try to tell me about SSBM's technicals being a manipulation of the game, and not a change. Chances are incredibly high that I can ace you in SSBM any given day of the week.

When I was talking about SF2 and WC3, I was talking about hacking and rebalancing Street Fighter, and using a third party map program to make DotA. Surely if you hack, you know that 3rd party map programs allow you to do things you otherwise couldn't do, or couldn't do easily. Those are changes, not manipulations.

Woulda been better if you attacked Science instead of Math, since Science is inherently faulty.

 

[doodmahn]

If you put this in multiplayer, you will wreck brawl. Please don't.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Facts are not facts, even in the real world.

****ing lol.


Anyway I have personally not said that turning Brawl into Melee was a good idea. In fact, the only thing I want out is tripping, so far.

 

[Taymond]

Firstly, let me be far from the first to shout a resounding "Screw Sakurai's intentions." It doesn't matter one whit what Sakurai wanted or wants right now. We're consumers. Once the game is in our hands, what we want is the only thing that matters. And if players have the ability to take their game and make something new and possibly better out of it, there's no reason they shouldn't. Gaming communities have been taking charge of their games for years, pulling completely new, ingenious ideas out of the original game that were never "intended," and millions of players across the world enjoy them more than the original game, in many cases.

LavisFiend, it doesn't matter if you think it might be illegal. Legality is not a matter of opinion, it is clearly defined, and no other similar game-modding device is illegal in the slightest. Furthermore, the purchase of Gecko may not even be necessary once at a certain point, as was already posted. And lastly, despite what you may believe, you don't intimidate anyone here, so don't expect threatening implications to do anything for you.

Enough with the philosophical debates. Join the debate hall and participate in any one of their subjectivity of reality threads if you're so inclined, but don't absorb whole pages to the discussion of the validity and reliability of mathematics.


Overall, the main point for detractors to consider is that, what, really, is stopping us physically or morally from choosing to modify Brawl? Absolutely nothing. If you don't share the opinion that it can be improved upon, then fine, the idea isn't for you, you don't have to play it. I'm not modding your copy of Brawl and forcing you to play it, I'd just be modding mine. Your personal views aside, why shouldn't players take it into their own hands to improve a game if they feel it deserves improvement and have the means to do so? Just because a game was delivered to us in a certain dilapidated, broken fashion doesn't mean we have to choose to live with that. If we have the means and the desire to improve it, what possible reason is there not to do so?

The shortsighted intentions of a developer who delivered an incomplete game in the first place? Precedent? No, in fact, precedent is plenty in our favor. There's nothing stopping us.

 

[ShadowLink84]

lmfao, don't try to tell me about SSBM's technicals being a manipulation of the game, and not a change. Chances are incredibly high that I can ace you in SSBM any given day of the week.

And this pertains to the discussion how?
I've never played SSBM competitively so most likely you probably would slaughter me.

When I was talking about SF2 and WC3, I was talking about hacking and rebalancing Street Fighter, and using a third party map program to make DotA. Surely if you hack, you know that 3rd party map programs allow you to do things you otherwise couldn't do, or couldn't do easily. Those are changes, not manipulations.

Dur i know about 3rd party programs including those used to edit whatever is in the game.
When you had mentioned SF and WC2 I thought you had been speaking of manipulation without hacking. mainly because of the argument you presented concerning amthematics in which .99999=1

To my knowledge they don't use any hacks on SF2 and WC3 competitively. If the game is to be rebalanced it is best to leave it to the actual companies mainly because such hacks tend to be borderline legal and you are altering core gameplay that wasn't intended originally.
never played starcraft but I believe paches are released regularly to balance out the game by the makers.
As I said you really cannot go out and say this is how the game should be because after all they weren't the creators of the game.
if the creators of it want to patch SSBB so that its more like SSBM then its no issue but rarely should the consumer start taking things into their own hands.

Woulda been better if you attacked Science instead of Math, since Science is inherently faulty.

Well the reason I mentioned math is because it shows manipulation more clearly than science.

Firstly, let me be far from the first to shout a resounding "Screw Sakurai's intentions." It doesn't matter one whit what Sakurai wanted or wants right now. We're consumers. Once the game is in our hands, what we want is the only thing that matters. And if players have the ability to take their game and make something new and possibly better out of it, there's no reason they shouldn't. Gaming communities have been taking charge of their games for years, pulling completely new, ingenious ideas out of the original game that were never "intended," and millions of players across the world enjoy them more than the original game, in many cases.

Wrong. Once the game is in your hands you have the right to play it not edit the game. You do not own it therefore you cannot do anything to it beyond the bounds of what is given.

SSBM wavedashing Sakurai can't say anything about it because that was within the games originally operation. yes it was unintended and unforeseen but it was a result of how they made the game. It was there to begin with.
In SSBB if we were to add L canceling, Wavedashing and remove tripping then Sakurai's opinion would matter greatly. no longer are you using what was given you are going into the game's coding and changing it to fit your purposes, something that is never intended by the programmers.

Why do you think Microsoft bans modded Xbox 360's? Yeah you can play it all you want but they definitely have a say as to what you can or cannot do.
it may be legal to use the AR and mess with the game

Nintendo v. Datel but that doesn't stop nintendo or any other game company from releasing patches that will freeze your system permanently for making it behave outside its original operations. Which also voids your warranty.

LavisFiend, it doesn't matter if you think it might be illegal. Legality is not a matter of opinion, it is clearly defined, and no other similar game-modding device is illegal in the slightest.

notillegal but again, if they find evidence you have been using a cheating device they can void your warranty.
once you start making the game or system behave outside its original operations your warranty can be voided. Of course its ahrd to show evidence of this unless the system is bricked but you understand my point.
They cannot declare it illegal but they can make it so that they aren't responsible in repairing/replacing it. they can also block the usage of cheat devices without any legal implications whatsoever.

Enough with the philosophical debates. Join the debate hall and participate in any one of their subjectivity of reality threads if you're so inclined, but don't absorb whole pages to the discussion of the validity and reliability of mathematics.

pity I don't care if you dislike the philosophical debates and I am not inclined to go to the debate hall since it would mean having to basically apply for permission to post within it.
The validity and reliability of mathematics pertain to the discussion at hand because they are tied to manipulating and changing of the game.

Why shouldn't players take it into their own hands to improve a game if they feel it deserves improvement and have the means to do so? Just because a game was delivered to us in a certain dilapidated, broken fashion doesn't mean we have to choose to live with that. If we have the means and the desire to improve it, what possible reason is there not to do so?

There is no reason to do so. however there is a difference between modding your own and then suggesting that the modifications be taken as a standard for play. Or that the modifications that you have done were the "right" way for the game to be made.
The only ones that can say this were those who developed and programmed the game.
we have no business bringing it online or to tournaments or even thinking of suggesting it as the standard for play.
Yes I like the idea of bringing back SSBM gameplay and I would surely do it on my own system, however I know it would be far from wise to suggest it be a standard.

The shortsighted intentions of a developer who delivered an incomplete game in the first place? Precedent? No, in fact, precedent is plenty in our favor. There's nothing stopping us.

incomplete is a subjective idea just so you know so refrain from using such words.
The developers made the game how they made it to be.
We as a competitive community cannot say they were shortsighted for not considering us.
We are the smallest population in the gaming community so we are the last ones to be considered.
The developers aimed to make the game mainstream and that is how it is, it isn't a bad game it just doesn't satisfy the needs of competitive gamers. That is hardly the fault of developers when they have their own ideas on how the game should be.

 

[MarKO X]

It's a battle between the older, "Melee" generation and the newer, "Brawl" generation. I've read this thread, and it's gotten more interesting with each page.

First, modding a game is not illegal as long as you don't say that you came up with the original content, such as characters, established stages, etc.

Second, .9999999999 !=(does not equal) 1 4/4, 5435/5435=1

Third, one guy said that he'd be 20-0 if he was in Melee pool matches but turned out 12-8 in Brawl pool matches. Maybe he shouldn't have made so many mistakes. Mistakes are a punishable offense in Brawl, but not the way they were punishable in Melee.

Finally, leave Brawl alone. if you honestly think that Melee is better than Brawl, then play Melee. You can't own every game. Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo kings aren't all Street Fighter Alpha 3 kings, and they aren't all Marvel vs. Capcom 2 kings, and those guys are all Capcom vs. SNK 2 kings... but all of the games (or at least most) are still played competitively to this day (or at least most, I think comp. Alpha3 isn't so big anymore), so instead of trying to turn Brawl into Melee, keep Melee alive. The new generation will keep Brawl alive. If Brawl isn't as great as you guys say it's not, then Brawl will die and Melee will live on.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

We're not necessarily blaming the developers. Well, we're blaming Sakurai, because he went out of his way to screw us over, and stated as much, but that's beside the point. It's great and all that he released a party game, but we want a competitive fighter. Your overall lack of knowledge when pertaining to competitive gaming makes your arguments nothing more than walls of text. Sure, you can hack and recode, but really, who can't?

For the record DotA WAS made with a third party map program (i.e. a change), and is played competitively in tournaments. The regular WC3 players don't ***** at them for it, and claim they should only play tournaments with their rulesets. They just keep playing broken-*** WC3. Same goes for SFII. That game has been hacked and modded for tournament use SO many times, it's not even funny. Don't debate if you have no clue what you're talking about, srsly.

Just because we're the last to be considered by the developers doesn't mean we should lie down and take it. That's stupid.

Most of us don't care about them voiding our warranty. I know I purchased a Wii only for this game, and it's the biggest waste of $300 I could have imagined. Sure, it's fun and all, but competitive singles is garbage compared to ANY competitive fighter. If I have to spend $50 more, just so I have a game worth playing, then that's fine by me.

EDIT: Punishing mistakes is nowhere NEAR as prominent in Brawl. You can **** up a lot if you're Snake or GaW, and still win VERY handily. Spacing is more important, but if you mess up, you're not going to get punished very heavily. Unless you're fighting an IC player that can infinite every time. Or you're Ness and Lucas, two characters that are now completely unusable in tournament.

 

[-Linko-]

But in mathematics, 0.9999999999 repeated to infinite IS EQUAL TO 1. Check it out:

0.99999999*10 - 0.9999999999 = 9 * 0.99999999999

BUT, in the next step:
9.99999999999-0.999999999999=9
9=(9/10) * 0.99999999999

Take the 9 to the other side
9 / 9 = 0.999999999999
1=0.9999999999999

And this is NOT "faulty math".

 

[InterimOfZeal]

All you're doing for that is assigning a value to infinity. Faulty math.

 

[ShadowLink84]

For the record DotA WAS made with a third party map program (i.e. a change), and is played competitively in tournaments. The regular WC3 players don't ***** at them for it, and claim they should only play tournaments with their rulesets. They just keep playing broken-*** WC3. Same goes for SFII. That game has been hacked and modded for tournament use SO many times, it's not even funny. Don't debate if you have no clue what you're talking about, srsly.

Just because we're the last to be considered by the developers doesn't mean we should lie down and take it. That's stupid.

not saying we should take it but that we are always going to be the last ones considered. It isn't often that a game is made to be competitive. Fighting games like tekken and Street fighter being among the few examples.

As for WC3 and SF2. Seriously? I was grossly misinformed then apologies on that part then.

Most of us don't care about them voiding our warranty. I know I purchased a Wii only for this game, and it's the biggest waste of $300 I could have imagined. Sure, it's fun and all, but competitive singles is garbage compared to ANY competitive fighter. If I have to spend $50 more, just so I have a game worth playing, then that's fine by me.

Hmm? no its just that the idea of saying Sakurai's ideas weren't important is grossly unfair.
Yes our opinions are what matter most and it was the competitive gaming community that amde halo, SF, Tekken and many other games into what it is today.
The game developers usually don;t care because they are out to make money. To be honest its understandable because not often is it that the competitive community shells the most money out for the game.
For the smash brothers series this was eventual considering how extremely popular it is.
granted there are other games just as popular that are competitive but those games weren't intended as party games originally.
I would prefer we waited another year for brawl to have come out while maintaining L canceling, wavedashing and all the other AT's from the original game.
mainly snice I wanted to see Sonic's dashdancing ability (shot)

EDIT: Punishing mistakes is nowhere NEAR as prominent in Brawl. You can **** up a lot if you're Snake or GaW, and still win VERY handily. Spacing is more important, but if you mess up, you're not going to get punished very heavily. Unless you're fighting an IC player that can infinite every time. Or you're Ness and Lucas, two characters that are now completely unusable in tournament.

yeah it makes characters who are slow and close range horrible to play.
if you aren't a character that is adept at spacing and approaching you really have no chance at winning.
Hell you saw the topic where R4ze lost to a freaking n00b Wolf with his Sonic.
Its ridiculous how strong defensive ability has become.

I am not going to be the first one out there saying we should mod this game. I simply am not the type to trample on the game developers ideas. or sy it should be standard.
I hack games (mainly NDS ) but I don't believe that those hacks should be intended to balancing the game, regardless of how unbalanced it may be.
After all we still have melee and the majority of all tournaments will be played in person so it makes no difference in the end.

i do wish I could use Sonic though =(

 

[SiegKnight]

Shadow Links awful at refuting logic, I've experienced this first hand. Just, don't bother.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Shadow Links awful at refuting logic, I've experienced this first hand. Just, don't bother.

If you have nothing other to do than troll then kindly refrain from posting.
The last time we had a debate you feel upon ignoring my statements because they didn't agree with you (which you stated yourself), and using derogatory statements for the rest of your argument.

 

[SiegKnight]

You're trolling a thread by disagreeing with its purpose when they're not really doing anything to harm you and its far from the sort of unproductive spam that actually does warrant a troll/flame attempt.

Of course this will go over your head, because you're fvcking ********.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

We're NOT putting in wavedashing. Right now, we're just talking about increasing hitstun and removing tripping. We don't want Melee 2.0. Well, not right now, anyway.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158790

As I said before, I don't give two ****s about Sakurai's intentions. He's a *****, and can **** off. I'm glad he'll never work on a Smash Bros game again. Maybe we can have a real fighter in a couple years.

 

[SiegKnight]

I really like Sakurai's design skills, he isn't dumb, he intended alot of the crap and esoteric tricks such as Wolf's reflector having an invincible frame. He made a game intended for everyone and whether he succeeded or not, its a nice bit of work. But his intentions don't matter, and its unlikely he knew what level of intensity it took to satisfy people like us.

Since when has a designers intentions ever mattered? Its the game. All the game. His intention to not allow forced wavelanding didn't stop us from using it, such is the nature of a cardinal direction abiding airdodge mechanic; no way to have one and not the other, really. We'd have been fools to refuse to use it for the - drastically overrated by scrubs - spacing applications it can have.

Granted Brawls pretty sluggish and certainly not astounding, though I love doubles and find it far more technical than singles. I think this idea would be amazing; I recall e for all had some consistent hitstun, and lovely play mechanics. I'd like to apply the framework of the beta versions to the final brawl, if we can find it or at least replicate it somehow.

It'd be perfect, and you know it.

 

[Bocom]

As I said before, I don't give two ****s about Sakurai's intentions. He's a *****, and can **** off. I'm glad he'll never work on a Smash Bros game again. Maybe we can have a real fighter in a couple years.

I like him, but yeah, that's your opinion.

But! What happens if it becomes worse?

 

[SiegKnight]

They're returning it to a tried and tested formula as opposed to the 'worse' framework they applied to the final brawl.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You're trolling a thread by disagreeing with its purpose when they're not really doing anything to harm you and its far from the sort of unproductive spam that actually does warrant a troll/flame attempt.

Of course this will go over your head, because you're fvcking ********.

Censor bypass and trolling.
no wonder people leave smashboards.
This post is off topic but I have to say one thing before ignoring you.
I am trolling a thread by disagreeing with the opinion presented?
Holy **** I guess anyone who says that they like brawl or that they believe it can be competitive should be banned for trolling.

Hey I know, let's go to the debate hall and tell them that they are all trolls.
After all they all are disagreeing with each other at one point or another.
if someone puts a thread saying , evolution is unscientifically proven let's NOT disagree with them.
Really our opinions don't mean a **** thing compared to the OP.

Seriously let's go to darkness of the heart and tell him that he was a troll for disagreeing with the many catholics/evangelicals that believe homosexuals are god forsaken individuals that will burn in hell. Or that what he said about homosexual love being right is really wrong and that he is a troll.

Hey let me call up Loki and tell him that anything that he says that disagrees with anyone means he is a troll.

Oh even better let's remove the first amendment. We definitely can't have people disagreeing with each other.
I mean really we should all focus on Christianity being the one truth faith. Surely anyone who disagrees must be wrong right?

No really SiegK you really opened my eyes.
I Should absolutely NOT disagree with someone.
Really its all just spam if someone presents their opinion and tries to logically support it./sarcasm.

Anyways: on topic. I don't believe we should use hacks as a standard of play. Not at least seeing what the majority of people say concerning the subject.
We should make a poll perhaps.

We're NOT putting in wavedashing. Right now, we're just talking about increasing hitstun and removing tripping. We don't want Melee 2.0. Well, not right now, anyway.

Eh im not sure about increasing the hitstun. Tripping is something I can agree upon being removed since its definitely something that doesn't work out.
I don't think you can increase hitstun without adding wavedashing/L canceling.
Mainly since that isn't enough if we are to balance the game out and improve upon its gameplay.

They're returning it to a tried and tested formula as opposed to the 'worse' framework they applied to the final brawl.

So?
I agree that melee is a better formula but that isn't a valid enough reason to change brawl's core gameplay.
We should be concerned as to the developers take on how they intended the game to be, we should be using what they had given us just as we did with melee and SSB64.

We didn't try to hack the game and balance it out did we?
And we surely had the tools as well.

I really like Sakurai's design skills, he isn't dumb, he intended alot of the crap and esoteric tricks such as Wolf's reflector having an invincible frame. He made a game intended for everyone and whether he succeeded or not, its a nice bit of work. But his intentions don't matter, and its unlikely he knew what level of intensity it took to satisfy people like us.

Except we are the minority. We are the competitive community not the mainstream gamers. We don't make up the vast majority of buyers so why should he satisfy us?
granted we can't just sit there and say oh thankyou for screwing us over Sakurai but we can't exactly say **** your opinion and design we'll make it into how we want it.
We never did that in melee and 64.

Its the game. All the game. His intention to not allow forced wavelanding didn't stop us from using it, such is the nature of a cardinal direction abiding airdodge mechanic; no way to have one and not the other, really. We'd have been fools to refuse to use it for the - drastically overrated by scrubs - spacing applications it can have.

Granted Brawls pretty sluggish and certainly not astounding, though I love doubles and find it far more technical than singles. I think this idea would be amazing; I recall e for all had some consistent hitstun, and lovely play mechanics. I'd like to apply the framework of the beta versions to the final brawl, if we can find it or at least replicate it somehow.

It'd be perfect, and you know it.


Since when has a designers intentions ever mattered?

All the time? It is they who designed the core gameplay that we have now.
He did design melee are you saying his opinion didn't matter?
Especially when vets praise melee for its incredible depth?
Credit is due to him whether he intended it or not, we can't just say screw you out of Nowhere just because he gave us raisins instead of nuts.
the results of melee were the results of the work he put in, it does matter.

Let's say Sakurai worked with sculptures.
He makes the first statue people praise it and love it because of its depths and fell.
Secnod statue people like it and say its incredible.
Third comes around and a minority hate it.
tehy promptly take the sculpture and start chiseling until its as they wanted it.
That isn't very fair to the maker is it?

I'll present another situation.
the handheld FPS MP:h.
in that game you get 7 weapons.
7 different characters with different alternate forms and affinity abilities.
trace sticks out on top and grossly overshadows every character.
Why?
Since he gets the sniper rifle on 25 out of 26 levels.
this is also broken to the fact that you can use the weapon up close.
Switching zoom to increase the damage output is incredibly easy to the point you do not even affect your aim.
We could modify the game so that he couldn't get the weapon so often.
We could even modify the rifle so it has no aiming reticule when its unzoomed but did we?
No.
Did we slow down his alternate form because it could literally move faster than any other alt in the game?
Hell even outrun a homing missile?
Nope we didn't.
What was given was given and while we could modify it we didn't modify it and say this is how the game should be. Simply because it wasn't meant for the rifle to not have a reticule when unzoomed or for trace's alt to move slowly.

I can udnerstand hacking the game for personal use I have no problem with that, but not for trying to make it a standard for competitive play.

 

[SiegKnight]

There is a difference between disagreeing logically and saying subjective, unbased bull that doesn't add anything to a topic that, btw, has a goal that won't harm you, and doesn't really need conflictive opinions to fulfill that goal, particularly not of the illogical and skewed kind. If it really bugs you personally and was relevant to disagree with, or they were discussing building a new framework over a mandatory part of your life instead of leaving you alone, then maybe you'd have the right.

You're only proven to be a troll more and more by not even having any objective backing behind your views, just like the other 9000 naysayers who say to go play melee instead. Its different from Yuna who at least isn't always trolling, and often has something of enlightenment and intelligence to grant people. Trolling is when you're not being a help, won't get anywhere, and are disagreeing in a place its not a help; in fact you're being adverse to help. You're being a pain, and clogging up the pages, making it thus harder to find posts about the actual topic.

Need I quote the wiki article of a troll?

 

[Taymond]

pity I don't care if you dislike the philosophical debates and I am not inclined to go to the debate hall since it would mean having to basically apply for permission to post within it.
The validity and reliability of mathematics pertain to the discussion at hand because they are tied to manipulating and changing of the game.

There's not really an application process anymore, you just have to wait as long as it takes for Crimson King to confirm a request. And no, regardless of any peripheral attachment to the main idea, you know as well as I do that this tangent does not belong in this thread. You just don't care. That's fine, just don't lie about it.

There is no reason to do so. however there is a difference between modding your own and then suggesting that the modifications be taken as a standard for play. Or that the modifications that you have done were the "right" way for the game to be made.
The only ones that can say this were those who developed and programmed the game.
we have no business bringing it online or to tournaments or even thinking of suggesting it as the standard for play.
Yes I like the idea of bringing back SSBM gameplay and I would surely do it on my own system, however I know it would be far from wise to suggest it be a standard.

Nobody's suggesting any modified Brawl as the standard for competitive play, so.. stop mistakenly thinking that? There might be some hope it might be a standard for a small, cult group to play in, but never the majority standard. We're not trying to force our opinions or the way we choose to play on anyone. Can the same be said for the opposition?

incomplete is a subjective idea just so you know so refrain from using such words.
The developers made the game how they made it to be.
We as a competitive community cannot say they were shortsighted for not considering us.
We are the smallest population in the gaming community so we are the last ones to be considered.
The developers aimed to make the game mainstream and that is how it is, it isn't a bad game it just doesn't satisfy the needs of competitive gamers. That is hardly the fault of developers when they have their own ideas on how the game should be.

I wasn't claiming Brawl was incomplete. I was speaking in generalities of the situation of being given a game that falls far short of its potential mark. I was not, in any way, speaking about Brawl or this particular situation. I have no qualms with how Brawl was made, it makes absolute perfect sense, you're more than right.

I was speaking in general, if developers give players a crappy game, and the players have the ability to make it less crappy, there's no reason they shouldn't.


Look, nobody's going to go around like this is a witch hunt shutting down modified Brawl tournaments. They're going to be, at best, very small scale events in very small, self-contained communities. They're not going to broach, in the least, upon the main Brawl community. There's a huge precedent for anything we might suggest. Fan communities play altered versions of games they enjoy. It happens, and it will continue happening. If you misrepresent the magnitude of this project, it's easy to overreact to it, yeah.

The main thing you still seem to just refuse to get is that people DO play modified versions of games, often as one of several standards of play. DotA, for example. Now how much these modified versions actually stray from the original game varies, but that's irrelevant. The fact is that there's nothing inherently wrong with choosing to do this. There's nothing inherently wrong with developing a subcommunity to play a game a specific way, if that's how you want to play!

 

[Andydark]

Sorry to fly in, not read everything, and fly out, but I think the issue at hand when compared to DotA is that Gecko costs moneys and DotA is downloadable with no cost?

That's how I feel about the entire thing, I can understand removing tripping as that's an effect that when PRACTICING isn't a big deal, so when tournaments roll around...

Aside from that, the ideas behind this I support, the lack of practical applciation eh... I'll be interested to see how this plays out in the end.

 

[ShadowLink84]

There is a difference between disagreeing logically and saying subjective, unbased bull that doesn't add anything to a topic that, btw, has a goal that won't harm you, and doesn't really need conflictive opinions to fulfill that goal, particularly not of the illogical and skewed kind. If it really bugs you personally and was relevant to disagree with, or they were discussing building a new framework over a mandatory part of your life instead of leaving you alone, then maybe you'd have the right

So trying to enforce the hacks as a standard play doe snot affect me as a gamer?
Right.
Sayingit won't harm me is like saying that you'll change the game as it is now, something that I've grown used to and adjusting it and saying it won't harm me.
I don't see anyone trying to hack melee so that Fox, Sheik and marth aren't so incredibly power do I?

Oh and ignore the other reasonings which i provided which you still have yet to respond to other than saying its bull.
Really when I presented examples of when the community didn't hack the game too balance it, despite having the tools it s surely trolling.
No really my opinions and ideas should not matter because I am NOT for your ideas right?

Again you fall upon simply disregarding my opinion and continuously do not address my arguments and examples.

Need I quote the wiki on hypocrisy?

Coming in and basically calling me a troll without even bothering to respond to my ideas then trying to force your own? Beautiful.

if I must provide a tl;dr version of my reasoning there here it will help since obviously you cannot see it.


Brawl's gameplay was an incredible change from melee. Lack of hitstun, lack of combos, the incredible strength of defensive gameplay.
Now people say we can modify the game so that we can increas e the hitstun and thereby increase the amount of viable combos.
We can also remove tripping and possibly add AT's from the previous game to this one in order to balance out the defensive and offensive gameplay.
Summary of what was presented.

My argument: hile brawl is unbalanced we should not hack the game in the name of balance.
Why/ Simply because this is how the game was intended. While we are unhappy with it and while it is a result of Sakurai's ignorance of us, we cannot hack the game and say this was how it was meant to be.
We are the minority and while we should not be happy with it we are not within the rights to take what was given, change it and then endorse it as the standard.
The reason for this is obvious.
We did not hack melee.
We did not hack SSB64.
We had the tools to hack both games and balance them so that ALL of the characters could compete at a high level of play.
Why didn't we? Simply because the changing of what was given is basically changing the core gameplay. it is not manipulation of what was given it is change.
We did not use the GC AR to reduce the massive advantage Fox, Sheik, Marth and Falco had over the rest of the characters.

Nor did we hack SSB64 so that Link would have the same ability of fighting that pikachu held.

We should also realize what was intended by the developers for their ideas are what created these games. it is Sakurai's work that created melee and resulted in L canceling and wavedashing, Dash Dancing and amny other AT's that were used for competitive play.
Yet we did not attempt to alter what he had given us then and we should not do so now.
To say we should change what was given to us in brawl would be hypocritical of us.
We accepted melee despite the imbalance that was present in Marth, Sheik and Fox.
What makes it so different in Brawl?
Brawl was intended to be different from melee, it was never intended to be similar to melee.
If you look at SSB64 many Z canceling remained in as did much of the core gameplay in the transition to melee. This was obviously intended.
brawl was not intended to mimic either of these games.

For other examples in whch there were gross examples of imbalance I refer to the DS handheld of MP:H.
you were repsented 7 hunters.
7 weapons.
Each hunter had different alternate forms varying in speed and effectiveness.
They also had different affinities with different levels of affectedness.
in this game trace was easily the best character. Simply because he gained the Sniper rifle 25 out of 26 arenas. While other characters gained it 9 out of 26.
in this game the rifle did 2x the amount of damage when zoomed.
it was a 2HKO unzoomed and OHKO zoomed.
Zooming was easy simply by tapping the r button so one can quickly zoom for the 2x damage then unzoom without adjusting their aim.
This was helped by the fact that the sniper rifle had a targeting reticule when unzoomed.
Trace also could move as fast as a homing missile by lunging off jumppads making it impossible to kill him.
he could health hog, affinity guard, spawn kill you name it he cuold do it and only he could pull it off to such a great degree of success.

We could remove the reticule but we did not.
We could slow his alt down but we did not.
We could adjust the spawning so that one is invincible for some time but we dind't.
We could make spawning points random but we did not.
We could remove his affinity but we did not.
We could give other characters his affinity but we did not.
We could change the way other characters behaved in terms of speed and abilities but we did not.
if MP:H2 came out and still had the same imbalance we still wouldn't change things.
Simply because this imbalance, this difference is what made the game what it was.

if we want SSBB to be similar to SSBM the best thing that should be doe is go back to SSBM.
We wouldn't be altering core gameplay nor would we be trampling on the programmers intentions which do matter.
They created the game their intentions are in the game, if something seen occurs due to their intentions thats all right because it wasn't a result of their work being changed.
If we mess with the game's original behavior we would be doing something similar to altering a sculpture's work simply because we did not believe it was right.

yes other games such as SF2 were hacked for balancing but how often does this occur?
in fact when programmers believed they needed to change the game they did so by patching.

Do you understand my argument now or is it still trolling?


Edit: Another key issue is the actual behavior of such hacks. For MP:H all systems had to be using the hack in order for it to work and even then it was a bit iffy.
Same for the wii and no doubt there will be online tournaments held which would be an issue concerning supply and money.
live tournaments are no issue for the wii but then again you aren't playing brawl as it was intended, you are playing it as the competitive community intended.
While we are consumers and while we do matter we do not have the right to say that the programmers ideas were wrong.
yes they do not appeal to a certain community but that community was not even being appealed for either.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Anyways: on topic. I don't believe we should use hacks as a standard of play. Not at least seeing what the majority of people say concerning the subject.
We should make a poll perhaps.

That sounds WONDERFUL! Hey, while we're at it, let's ask for everyone's approval as to whether we want to play 3rd Strike, or SFII. We can also ask if we should seriously be playing GG:AC, or GG/. If more people vote for one, let's forget the other. The masses ARE, in fact, intelligent.

lawl.

Eh im not sure about increasing the hitstun. Tripping is something I can agree upon being removed since its definitely something that doesn't work out.
I don't think you can increase hitstun without adding wavedashing/L canceling.
Mainly since that isn't enough if we are to balance the game out and improve upon its gameplay.

This doesn't quite make sense. Why would we need to add wavedashing and l cancelling? Surely, as a hacker, you know what adding wavedashing would entail? We'd have to completely bypass the Havok engine, rather than just change a few values. Sounds like pretty hefty work. As you admitted before, you never played SSBM competitively. I don't really see you as knowing what entails "balance".

Hitstun increase is MORE than enough, because then, actual combos can result. You could actually punish someone for playing stupidly, rather than hope you don't get infected by the stupidity in your attempt to punish the dsmash spamming Wolf.

We should be concerned as to the developers take on how they intended the game to be, we should be using what they had given us just as we did with melee and SSB64.

We didn't try to hack the game and balance it out did we?
And we surely had the tools as well.

We never played with "developer's intent" in mind. We always played with the intent of being competitive. If we played with "developer's intent", then I seriously doubt that SWDing, Wobbling, waveshining, or FC pillaring would have been used in competitive play. We didn't need to hack SSB64 or SSBM to make them competitive, they already were. Meanwhile, Brawl is just a really really really shiny version of rock, paper, scissors.

Except we are the minority. We are the competitive community not the mainstream gamers. We don't make up the vast majority of buyers so why should he satisfy us?
granted we can't just sit there and say oh thankyou for screwing us over Sakurai but we can't exactly say **** your opinion and design we'll make it into how we want it.
We never did that in melee and 64.

Just because we didn't say **** you, Sakurai! before, doesn't mean we shouldn't now. Melee and 64 were fine. He tried to make Melee less competitive, and failed miserably. Notsomuch this time.

I will dismiss this portion of your argument by saying this:

Dear Sakurai,

**** your opinion and design. We'll make it into how we want it.

Yours' truly,
IoZ

He did design melee are you saying his opinion didn't matter?

Now you're getting it!

Especially when vets praise melee for its incredible depth?

Incredible unintentional depth.

Credit is due to him whether he intended it or not, we can't just say screw you out of Nowhere just because he gave us raisins instead of nuts.

He directed it. He did not program it. He simply told them the gist of what he wanted. He did NOT give us raisins. He gave us rabbit pellets, and pretended they were raisins.

Again, screw you, Sakurai.

the results of melee were the results of the work he put in, it does matter.

The results of Melee were the results of programmers and testers. All he did was yell at them, and tell them what to do. The testers are the ones that left wavedashing in, not him. Chances are really high that the programmers are the ones that left l-cancelling intact, not him. The programmers are the ones responsible for the rebalanced European version of Melee, not him. Stop pretending he's a hero. He's the reason tripping is in Brawl. One of the testers tried to write it up as a bug, and got a note specifically stating that it was a feature implemented by Sakurai, and what caused it. I've posted this numerous times, only to be ignored.

Let's say Sakurai worked with sculptures.
He makes the first statue people praise it and love it because of its depths and fell.
Secnod statue people like it and say its incredible.
Third comes around and a minority hate it.
tehy promptly take the sculpture and start chiseling until its as they wanted it.
That isn't very fair to the maker is it?

Except that is incredibly contrived. First off, it's more like him mass producing colouring books, and us colouring it how we want to. Some of us actually prefer to colour outside the lines. Second off, Sakurai doesn't have to deal with this game anymore, and probably doesn't give two ****s about it, given his general disdain for working on the Smash series. Third, artists used to be executed if their works didn't meet demands. I hardly think us changing a few values is the equivalent of that.

I'll present another situation.
the handheld FPS MP:h.
in that game you get 7 weapons.
7 different characters with different alternate forms and affinity abilities.
trace sticks out on top and grossly overshadows every character.
Why?
Since he gets the sniper rifle on 25 out of 26 levels.
this is also broken to the fact that you can use the weapon up close.
Switching zoom to increase the damage output is incredibly easy to the point you do not even affect your aim.

Except he's not grossly overshadowing the characters. Samus has bomb traps, combos, and those missles of doom. Noxus (I think?) gets the x-axis freeze glitch, to instant headshot kills. Sylux gets triangle bombing. The list goes on, especially if you play with glitches. Don't try to spout MP:H at me, I know that game pretty well. It's broken to ****.

We could modify the game so that he couldn't get the weapon so often.
We could even modify the rifle so it has no aiming reticule when its unzoomed but did we?
No.
Did we slow down his alternate form because it could literally move faster than any other alt in the game?
Hell even outrun a homing missile?
Nope we didn't.
What was given was given and while we could modify it we didn't modify it and say this is how the game should be. Simply because it wasn't meant for the rifle to not have a reticule when unzoomed or for trace's alt to move slowly.

We didn't do any of this because we didn't have to. Trace is high tier, but not broken. Scrubs think he is, but he's not.

I can udnerstand hacking the game for personal use I have no problem with that, but not for trying to make it a standard for competitive play.

And this is where we differ. From the sound of it, you've never played a game competitively, nor understand what makes a game competitive. As such, your arguments are moot, and your opinions mean little-to-nothing for most of us. If we want to play a modified Brawl comptetively, let us. We're not going to stop you from playing campfest, so don't try and stop us from playing a punishment oriented game.

Also, I lawl@your pseudo-intellectual ramblings. They're really quite cute.

Now, I will say this as clearly as possible:

We do not know what the developer's intentions were. Do not claim you do. Even if the standard version of Brawl ~was~ the developer's idea of a good game, we do not care. We want to play a good, competitive game, with the current list of Brawl characters.

For all intents and purposes, the difference between us is this:

I say **** SAKURAI'S INTENTIONS

While you suck his teat.

Simple as that.

 

[SiegKnight]

Melee's depth was pretty much intentional as he even knew of wavedashing. Not disagreeing with your focal point Zeal, just saying. Melee includes combo counts for training mode, consecutive hit metres that work well along with it, L cancel being intentional and wavelanding was too. He just purposely messed us up. He even knows of pivot well enough to put it on the dojo, and he pays attention to the games framework alot.

He just hated us.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Sakurai didn't know of wavedashing. The people debugging the game did. The depth was unintentional. He did NOT look at the game and go, "Hey, I bet you this game is going to have a lot of punishment and approach options. I think Sheik should be able to CG, Peach should be able to FC pillar, and Fox should be able to **** everyone ever". Brawl has a consequetive hits counter in training mode as well. He intentionally made pivot grabs better in Brawl, as the programmers have seemed to have done with virtually everything involving the shield/grab game.

Melee was an accident. Brawl is the solution.

 

[kamakun]

Sakurai specifically states in a recent NP that he knew about WDing in Melee

 

[ShadowLink84]

That sounds WONDERFUL! Hey, while we're at it, let's ask for everyone's approval as to whether we want to play 3rd Strike, or SFII. We can also ask if we should seriously be playing GG:AC, or GG/. If more people vote for one, let's forget the other. The masses ARE, in fact, intelligent.

lawl.

I was discussing the competitive community NOT mainstream gamers.
Lawl,

This doesn't quite make sense. Why would we need to add wavedashing and l cancelling? Surely, as a hacker, you know what adding wavedashing would entail? We'd have to completely bypass the Havok engine, rather than just change a few values. Sounds like pretty hefty work. As you admitted before, you never played SSBM competitively. I don't really see you as knowing what entails "balance".

the reason I say this is because increasnig the hitstun and adding combos would not be enough to balance out the game.
i mentioned this earlier did I not?
Saying lets add some more hitstun is really not enough if we are hacking the game in the name of balance.

Hitstun increase is MORE than enough, because then, actual combos can result. You could actually punish someone for playing stupidly, rather than hope you don't get infected by the stupidity in your attempt to punish the dsmash spamming Wolf.

That would work only against idiots that are spamming their smash attacks and even then that doesn't do anything.
How about concerning approach?
you are a sonic main so you know how important approaching is.
he majority of the cahracters can't even get close to a spamming wolf how the hell would increasing hitstun benefit them?

We never played with "developer's intent" in mind. We always played with the intent of being competitive. If we played with "developer's intent", then I seriously doubt that SWDing, Wobbling, waveshining, or FC pillaring would have been used in competitive play. We didn't need to hack SSB64 or SSBM to make them competitive, they already were. Meanwhile, Brawl is just a really really really shiny version of rock, paper, scissors.

They weren't already competitive. the competitive community MADE them competitive. Just as Halo genre was made competitive.
the developer intended to put the core gameplay as is.
I mentioned that any consequence as thereafter was a result of that intent.
Or did the competitive community really manage to get a word in with sakurai concerning the development of SSBM?

Sakurai saw what had become of SSBM and SSB64, he probably disliked it.
As a result he changed the gameplay in order to make it more noob friendly. its as simple as that.

Just because we didn't say **** you, Sakurai! before, doesn't mean we shouldn't now. Melee and 64 were fine. He tried to make Melee less competitive, and failed miserably. Notsomuch this time.

I will dismiss this portion of your argument by saying this:

Dear Sakurai,

**** your opinion and design. We'll make it into how we want it.

Yours' truly,
IoZ

I don't see halo competitive gamers saying this when halo 1 was changed drastically.
compared to Halo 2 and 3.
Why should we?
Not saying we shuold be tolerant but we don't need to go the extra mile where bascially give a **** you to the designer/

Now you're getting it!
Incredible unintentional depth.



He directed it. He did not program it. He simply told them the gist of what he wanted. He did NOT give us raisins. He gave us rabbit pellets, and pretended they were raisins.

Again, screw you, Sakurai.

yes and the programmers did what Sakurai wanted. It isn't like the programmers get a **** say in anything.
They do as they're told so Sakurai was responsible for brawl as it is now.

The results of Melee were the results of programmers and testers. All he did was yell at them, and tell them what to do. The testers are the ones that left wavedashing in, not him.

Wrong we were't there so we do not know what was going on conerning the testing.
you think they tested Brawl and found that ness and Lucas could get infinite grabbed by a large amount of the crew and then decided, hey lets leave that in.
Or Fox's drill shine infinite?
or wobbling?
bull ****

Chances are really high that the programmers are the ones that left l-cancelling intact, not him. The programmers are the ones responsible for the rebalanced European version of Melee, not him. Stop pretending he's a hero. He's the reason tripping is in Brawl. One of the testers tried to write it up as a bug, and got a note specifically stating that it was a feature implemented by Sakurai, and what caused it. I've posted this numerous times, only to be ignored.

So you're telling me that Sakurai just said, hey make this game and the programmers made it and did not even once go back and have him look at it and determine if its what he wanted?
Are you also saying that they ent back and balanced melee for the sake of competitive gamers?Hell no they dind't.
The majority of re-released games is simply to take out bugs or glitches that were unintentional that hadn't been found through testing.
you remember hot coffee?
programmers leave loads of crap on the game and its not uncommon to have several bugs and glitches go by unfound.
you don't honestly believe that they said melee is unbalanced lets go fix it.


As for the testers we already know Sakurai intended for tripping to be in the game. no one ignored you. Sakurai said it himself.

Testers are just that, testers. they don't get a say, they don't find wavedashing and L canceling and many other tactics found by the competitive community. They test thats it. they don't think about competitive implications.
they think something happened that was unintentional in the process they report it.

Obviously they did not catch wavedashing since Sakurai removed it this game.
obviously Sakurai wanted the game to be different he said it himself.

Yeah the programmers did all the work but thats because they are the grunts that do the work, they don't design the game.
That's why i said Sakurai is responsible for the issue concerning brawl, because the programmers don't often get a say in things.
Hell when Atari was still big the programmers didn't have a **** say in anything and often times were ignored.
hell there was a whole ****storm when their names werne't even given credit for making the game.
programmers do all the work but its the designers who say what they want or do not want in the game.
programmers don't get to do anything other than make the game.

just as you have the designer and the seamstress.
Seamstress makes the stuff but the designer calls the shots and is ultimately responsible for everything that happens.

Except that is incredibly contrived. First off, it's more like him mass producing colouring books, and us colouring it how we want to. Some of us actually prefer to colour outside the lines. Second off, Sakurai doesn't have to deal with this game anymore, and probably doesn't give two ****s about it, given his general disdain for working on the Smash series. Third, artists used to be executed if their works didn't meet demands. I hardly think us changing a few values is the equivalent of that.

Ah well thats a pity then. If Sakurai doesn't want us coloring outside the lines and makes it so that outside the lines everything turns white then tahts just his intentions. Can't ge tpissed about that.

1st: Pity. If Sakurai made it so that the colors turned white outside the lines then thats just his intente. go ahead and color but you have to stay within the lines. If he says you can only use red, green and blue that doesn't stop you from coloring it wwith only one or two colors.
In melee we basically did that, we never went outside the lines, we never changed the lines.
We were given several colors and made use of them so that we would get something else. We didn't go get a different crayon.
Second, of course not he's out to just cash his check and amke a buck nothing new.
Third, irrelevant considering we aren't in any position ot make any demands.
us changing a few values is different because WE never had an opinion on the game's design.
We aren't the ones designing Sakurai was.

Except he's not grossly overshadowing the characters. Samus has bomb traps, combos, and those missles of doom. Noxus (I think?) gets the x-axis freeze glitch, to instant headshot kills. Sylux gets triangle bombing. The list goes on, especially if you play with glitches. Don't try to spout MP:H at me, I know that game pretty well. It's broken to ****.
We didn't do any of this because we didn't have to. Trace is high tier, but not broken. Scrubs think he is, but he's not.

I am a veteran of the game I've had it since launch and I still play it.
he heavily overshadows the other characters.
Samus bomb traps don't mean a **** thing unless you are alt spamming and even then you can easily escape from then when you are Trace.
noxus gets the SF GLITCH. key word being glitch. not a physical exploit, nothing of the kind.
Even then it got ***** by Trace's Imp because the SF required a VD or Imp to be an actual potential killer.
Any other weapon didn't do anything.
Trace ***** noxus with his imp. ***** him hard.

Sylux triangle bombing does 180 damage and is easily avoided by not standing still.
Don't spout MP:h when obviously you never even played the thing beyond a couple of weeks.
Anyone will tell you.
Imp>ll
because Trace ALWAYS gets the imp and because has among the most powerful alts
Trace>All the hunters.
Weavel can't do a thing.
Spire can't do a thing.
Samus can't do a thing.
Sylux can't.

Go ask them.
and ask this.

If h0vey at his prime faced jahordon in his prime who would win?
h0vey each and everytime.
Why?
he was the closest to ahing the perfect Trace.
Jahordon had arguably the best one and h0vey would almost always come out on top.
Don't spout about sylux's triangle bombs or Samus bombs or noxus' SF glitch.

Trace overshadows the hunters extremely.
Only time he didn't was when lag was involved and he didn't have the imp, something he was practically guaranteed to obtain.

Even pros go so far out as to ban the imp.
Why?
Simply because when trace had the imp you might as well put your DS down and let yourself get killed.

Don't believe me go ahead and ask.

Even better, i'll show you first hand and give you my FC.
I may be ruusty but you'll definitely see what I mean.

And this is where we differ. From the sound of it, you've never played a game competitively, nor understand what makes a game competitive. As such, your arguments are moot, and your opinions mean little-to-nothing for most of us. If we want to play a modified Brawl comptetively, let us. We're not going to stop you from playing campfest, so don't try and stop us from playing a punishment oriented game.

im not trying to stop you from playing it but im not gonna let someone say this is the standard form of play if the majority of competitive players disagreed.
it is why i said make a poll, if they say yes hack away. but I guarantee that increasing hitstun and removing tripping won't do anything for the metagame.
I've played several games competitively, don't insinuate anything.
Want me to make a list or are you going to just ignore it?

oh and to shoot your stupid idea down.
Sports casters don't need to have played competitively, there are several who never played football competitively and guess what? they can still tell you when a bad play is a bad play.

Also, I lawl@your pseudo-intellectual ramblings. They're really quite cute.

I also lawl at ramblings about how the competitive gamers, the smallest group of gamers in general, should be the ones to dictate how a game should or should not be.
Really let's completely ignore the fact that we do not dictate how the game is designed.

its really amusing.

Now, I will say this as clearly as possible:
We do not know what the developer's intentions were. Do not claim you do. Even if the standard version of Brawl ~was~ the developer's idea of a good game, we do not care. We want to play a good, competitive game, with the current list of Brawl characters.
For all intents and purposes, the difference between us is this:
I say **** SAKURAI'S INTENTIONS
While you suck his teat.

Simple as that.

then I shall say this as well.
While we do not know the full content of a developers intentions (sakurai has given ideas as to what he intended brawl to be) we should not disregard their intentions nor claim that we know how the game should or should bot be. We did not design the game we only played it. I want wavedashing and L canceling and apparently Sakurai did not.
It's a pity you do not care because when it comes to the designer, the competitive community doesn't really mean **** in their eyes when it comes to cashing in the check.

You want to know what the base idea of designers think when making the game?
here I'll give you an idea.
**** competitive gamers. They don't mean a **** thing when it comes to making money.
Simple, it isn't hard to figure out, especially when Sakurai practically broadcasts it on his the smashbros website.


I find it kinda sad that you're telling me to go suck Sakurai's teat considering I do agree with you on the point that Sakurai basically screwed over competitive gamers.

What do I expect though, people get extremely stupid when they become emotional.

 

[leafgreen386]

shadowlink: The thing you aren't understanding is that not only is this not attempting to replace brawl, that it's only meant as an alternative, and in no way will become the standard form of play, but also that no one cares what sakurai intended.

When you buy a baseball, the company that made that baseball expects you to play... baseball with it. However, that doesn't stop you from getting it signed by a pro and just leaving it in a case in your house. Much the same, sakurai made the game, and despite his intentions, once it reaches consumer hands, it's up to them to decide what to do with it. He only has control of the game before it's released. It's up to us to decide how we want to play it, and if we want to mod the game to make it more fun, than so be it. He's not going to stop us. He won't even care.

Now, in the event that he does care, then I say all the better. I want him to feel like he's failed again, because he resents our entire community and everything we've done to his game. In his eyes, melee was a failure, a mistake, and he rectified that "failure" in brawl, making a game that was a party game, and only a party game. We're still gonna do what we want with his game, whether he likes it or not, and he has no control or power over us to change that. You don't either, so if you don't have something constructive to add to the thread, you really should just leave. You're not going to convince anyone here with your faulty logic, and all you're doing is wasting your and our time.