USB Gecko is the new Action Replay! (added potential goals)

[DragonBlade]

Do you guys think this(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwz6hx8elNc) would be a good theme song?

 

[ShadowLink84]

shadowlink: The thing you aren't understanding is that not only is this not attempting to replace brawl, that it's only meant as an alternative, and in no way will become the standard form of play, but also that no one cares what sakurai intended.

the reason I am discussing as if it were to become standard play was because I believe a few pages back the Op stated that by using the hacks it could be used as standard paly.
IOZ also mentioned SF2 and WC3 also used hacks in tournament settings to balance the game.

When you buy a baseball, the company that made that baseball expects you to play... baseball with it. However, that doesn't stop you from getting it signed by a pro and just leaving it in a case in your house. Much the same, sakurai made the game, and despite his intentions, once it reaches consumer hands, it's up to them to decide what to do with it. He only has control of the game before it's released. It's up to us to decide how we want to play it, and if we want to mod the game to make it more fun, than so be it. He's not going to stop us. He won't even care.

i am not saying that for anyone to not hack the game. I am saying that we shouldn't put the idea of making it a form of standard play like we did with other games.
As you said Sakurai only can ess with the game as long as it was being developed and once it was out it was out.
Which is why SSB64 and melee became the way it did despite his ideas.
in Brawl he went to the extremes to stop competitive play as he said himself when he mentioned making it so EVERYONE can play.
I do think he does care to a certain extent because why would he remove wave dashing and L canceling?
particularly L canceling which were in SSB64 and melee. there is no way he could ahve not seen it especially with the length of time the game has been around.

Now, in the event that he does care, then I say all the better. I want him to feel like he's failed again, because he resents our entire community and everything we've done to his game. In his eyes, melee was a failure, a mistake, and he rectified that "failure" in brawl, making a game that was a party game, and only a party game. We're still gonna do what we want with his game, whether he likes it or not, and he has no control or power over us to change that. You don't either, so if you don't have something constructive to add to the thread, you really should just leave. You're not going to convince anyone here with your faulty logic, and all you're doing is wasting your and our time.

The thing is im not trying to stop ANYONE from hacking the game.
more power to you if you do hack the game. I make hacks and I WANT people to hack the game.

however I don't believe in enforcing the hacks as a standard of play.
mainly because in order to begin using those hacks in standard play would mean you would need a general agreement on those hacks.
Something that is difficult to obtain considering that the community can be picky at times.
Wobbling for is allowed ni a good amount of turnaments while other tournaments ban it.

All I am saying is before we start saying we could use such hacks as a method of standard play, we should at least ensure that there is a general agreement so as to avoid dissention in the competitive community.
I am in NO WAY saying never use the hacks.
Just don't enforce it in standard play or tournaments unless the community agrees.

I say this because I ran into a whole **** storm when it came to the suggestion of using hacks for tournament play that would remove SFing or make it so that spawn killing wasn't an extremely powerful tactic by increasing the amount of time you were invincible.


I don't care if someone wants to use hacks, more power to them, just don't try to enforce it unless you have a majority agreement from the competitive community.

 

[Taymond]

You want to know what the base idea of designers think when making the game?
here I'll give you an idea.
**** competitive gamers. They don't mean a **** thing when it comes to making money.
Simple, it isn't hard to figure out, especially when Sakurai practically broadcasts it on his the smashbros website.

Yeah, uh.. we know? That's why we're not obsessed with what Sakurai's intentions were when he designed this game. Because he didn't design the game for us. Why should the competitive community be occupied with what the developers intentions were when those intentions didn't include us from the very beginning?

We know how Nintendo and Sakurai feel about the competitive community, and that's a plenty good reason why we shouldn't care what they "intended" Smash to become. If we're the forgotten child, then we'll operate on our own intentions. If we can make something out of Brawl that IS intended for competitive play, instead of being left to struggle with the anti-competitive game the developers made, then awesome for us.


EDIT: TO ABOVE
No one is trying to enforce this as the competitive standard! The OP mentioned it in the opening post, yes, but we shot that down IMMEDIATELY. All of us, even those who want this project to continue! We realize that not only is there no chance of that happening, and that the competitive community has known for AGES that it is stupid to try to force people to play any certain way.

At best this will develop into a small, small, small, small, SMALL!!!!!!! subcommunity. Stop arguing against ghosts!

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

I haven't been able to find a **** thing in the lengthy and meaningless posts here (which are off-topic). Can anyone asnwer me why there is no chance of it becoming a competative standard? What if the only thing removed was tripping? What is so bad about that?

I can tell you all right now that if they don't rectify the tripping problem in competative games, I won't be going to Brawl tournaments.

The problem is that I really, really, like Brawl, and I think it improves on many things in Melee.

Anyways, why would non-tripping Brawl not become a competative standard?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yeah, uh.. we know? That's why we're not obsessed with what Sakurai's intentions were when he designed this game. Because he didn't design the game for us. Why should the competitive community be occupied with what the developers intentions were when those intentions didn't include us from the very beginning?

We know how Nintendo and Sakurai feel about the competitive community, and that's a plenty good reason why we shouldn't care what they "intended" Smash to become. If we're the forgotten child, then we'll operate on our own intentions. If we can make something out of Brawl that IS intended for competitive play, instead of being left to struggle with the anti-competitive game the developers made, then awesome for us.

The reason I mentioned it was because everyone sees to be caught up in how Sakurai failed to appease the competitive community and how we should not stand for it despite the fact we are not mainstream.
I do think its somewhat important that we know the intentions of the game creators because its the reason why craptacular third party games come out.
Otherwise we will continuously feel disappointed when we get a game.
Many were hoping that brawl would have some semblance of melee's gameplay.
I honestly do not believe people expected for the game to be so incredibly defense orientated.

EDIT: TO ABOVE
No one is trying to enforce this as the competitive standard! The OP mentioned it in the opening post, yes, but we shot that down IMMEDIATELY. All of us, even those who want this project to continue! We realize that not only is there no chance of that happening, and that the competitive community has known for AGES that it is stupid to try to force people to play any certain way.

I mentioned why i was on that idea in my post.
I'll repeat, when IOZ mentioned that SF2 did use hacks, I thought the idea of using the codes as a standard for competitive play had still been active.
I had seen earlier when people denied the idea at first but saw someone mention the idea of using it for competitive play.
That is the only thing I am arguing against and that was simply because of what you mentioned, the community would need to agree on it as a whole.

I also stated that if they were agreed to be used that more would have to be done other than increasing hitstun.
As the game stands defensive play is incredibly strong and things really wouldn't change because there is no way for characters to approach.

I've never once stated that hacks should never be used.

I haven't been able to find a **** thing in the lengthy and meaningless posts here. Can anyone asnwer me why there is no chance of it becoming a competative standard? What if the only thing removed was tripping? What is so bad about that?

I can tell you all right now that if they don't rectify the tripping problem in competative games, I won't be going to Brawl tournaments.

The problem is that I really, really, like Brawl, and I think it improves on many things in Melee.

Anyways, why would non-tripping Brawl not become a competitive standard?

It isn't only tripping that would be removed.
hit stun would be increased to allow more punishment and more combo.


The general argument against using it as competitive standard is because you are going outside of the bounds that were established.
people hadn't done this in melee nor SSb64 and rarely do communities as a whole agree on such hacks.

It also wouldn't do much for the game as a whle because the main issue is the defensive game.
hit stun would only serve to make it possible to combo it wouldn't balance out the gameplay.

Most of the cast wouldn't benefit since they can't approach to begin with.


Edit: Anyways I must go for now. if anyone wants to try and chew me out IOZ in particular you'll have to wait til tomorrow.

 

[Toadster5]

I bet making Melee 2.0 would be more fun than playing Brawl.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

It isn't only tripping that would be removed.
hit stun would be increased to allow more punishment and more combo.


The general argument against using it as competitive standard is because you are going outside of the bounds that were established.
people hadn't done this in melee nor SSb64 and rarely do communities as a whole agree on such hacks.

This is rather foolish. Who are you to say what will be added and what won't be for tournaments? I asked what was wrong with removing tripping and you answer with it's "going outside the bounds that were established".

The bounds that were established are stupid. This is what the arguement is about, and you're simply evading it.

Calling this a 'hack' is inapropriate, if you ask me. It should just be a simple tournament modification for competative play. Again I present you with the fact that numerous games have been completely overhauled using mods/editors, and those new user-made games are now played competatively.

And here's another thing people are overlooking here. Programmers constantly update their games to fix things. You see newer versions of old games coming out with fixes and modifications, sometimes things are completely removed. Now, what you people are saying is, just becasue Nintendop isn't going to do it to Brawl, no one should. Well, that's stupid. Brawl will not be recieving any updates at any point in the future, and I believe it is up to the community to maintain it.

Why couldn't tournaments host versions of Brawl with tripping simply being the only thing removed?

 

[ShadowLink84]

This is rather foolish. Who are you to say what will be added and what won't be for tournaments? I asked what was wrong with removing tripping and you answer with it's "going outside the bounds that were established".[p/quote]
1. I never said what hacks were going to be used the OP did.
2. Concerning tripping that isn't the prime issue. The prome issue is basically adding hit stun and combos which would really do nothing in the name of balance. It would mean altering other things so that the game would be balanced and wouln't be a camp fest. Hence because you have to change several things you going outside the bounds of what was established rather than manipulation via wavedashing/L canceling.

The bounds that were established are stupid. This is what the arguement is about, and you're simply evading it.

Read my previous posts and tell me how I evade it.

Calling this a 'hack' is inapropriate, if you ask me. It should just be a simple tournament modification for competative play. Again I present you with the fact that numerous games have been completely overhauled using mods/editors, and those new user-made games are now played competatively.

yes which was mentioned earlier.
however to say we should mod these games because the boundaries established was stupid means we should do the same for every other game that is imbalanced.

And here's another thing people are overlooking here. Programmers constantly update their games to fix things. You see newer versions of old games coming out with fixes and modifications, sometimes things are completely removed.

not the case with the smashbros series. They removed glitches and other unintentional bugs they dind't balance gameplay. Not to the extent necessary.

Now, what you people are saying is, just becasue Nintendo isn't going to do it to Brawl, no one should. Well, that's stupid. Brawl will not be recieving any updates at any point in the future, and I believe it is up to the community to maintain it.

um no noone has said that.
What I am saying is that before such hacks are used to modify the game the competitive community as a whole should agree with it.
Refer to my last few posts and read them please.

Why couldn't tournaments host versions of Brawl with tripping simply being the only thing removed?

Tripping isn't the issue though.
Read the posts rather than skip them.
The concern is whether on people will agree to modified versions of brawl as a standard for tournaments and competitive play.

in short, read the posts please.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Shadowlink, I refuse to read through your lengthy posts filled with nonsesne. Get to the point, or I'm not going to even bother.

I did try to read through them, but I came upon numerous posts reagrding mathematics (?), and so you've proven how accute your arguments are already.

I don't have time to read essays. I invite you to write a summary in 1, maybe 2 paragraphs.

Being this arrogant feels good.

 

[antimatter]

and it makes you look like a complete tool.
despite my and many others' disappointments with brawl, i still cant believe some people would consider using a hacked copy for competitive play. its gameplay mechanics may not be as well developed as melee's, nor does it have as many easily abused gameplay techniques, but it is still a fighting game, and it wouldn't be normal to hack a game just for tournaments.

to sum up: tourney players and other complainers, simply go back to melee and leave those who accept brawl be.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I was discussing the competitive community NOT mainstream gamers.
Lawl

So was I. 95% of the posters here are *******.

the reason I say this is because increasnig the hitstun and adding combos would not be enough to balance out the game.

And how would you know anything about balancing issues?

i mentioned this earlier did I not?
Saying lets add some more hitstun is really not enough if we are hacking the game in the name of balance.[/quote[

Then I suppose we'd hack it more. We're not increasing hitstun to make it "balanced". We're doing it to make it more competitive. As long as GaW and Snake stay the same, and the ICs grabs allow for infinites, the game will not be balanced.

That would work only against idiots that are spamming their smash attacks and even then that doesn't do anything.
How about concerning approach?
you are a sonic main so you know how important approaching is.
he majority of the cahracters can't even get close to a spamming wolf how the hell would increasing hitstun benefit them?

My Sonic, and a few other Sonics, have lost to dsmash spamming wolf players. Granted, it was my first time playing against Wolf, but I see some major problems, namely, punishment. If you were to increase hitstun on even his uthrow by about 4-5 frames, you could punish with a uthrow uair, which does roughly 20%. Increase the stun on the uair by a little bit more, and hey, uthrow double uair, or uthrow uair fair are suddenly VERY viable punishment options, so you aren't just left with hoping to hit with fair, nair, or the pathetic 4% dash attack.

They weren't already competitive. the competitive community MADE them competitive. Just as Halo genre was made competitive.

The "halo genre" was not made competitive. It's a FPS, it's competitive. That's how they've been since the first ones came out for computer. An FPS has to be TERRIBLE to not merit being competitive. Or single player only.

the developer intended to put the core gameplay as is.
I mentioned that any consequence as thereafter was a result of that intent.
Or did the competitive community really manage to get a word in with sakurai concerning the development of SSBM?

So wait, suddenly you're cool with ignoring developers intents?

Sakurai saw what had become of SSBM and SSB64, he probably disliked it.
As a result he changed the gameplay in order to make it more noob friendly. its as simple as that.

And this is a good thing... how?

I don't see halo competitive gamers saying this when halo 1 was changed drastically.
compared to Halo 2 and 3.
Why should we?

First off, Halo 1 is MUCH better than 2 or 3, as far as actual gameplay mechanics goes. Second, they don't complain because they still have a competitive game. They didn't take away ammo, slow the game down, increase targeting reticles by 150%, make it so you can auto-avoid pincers, and give you health that recharges in one second. Third, you're comparing an FPS to a fighter. Finally, the sheep mentality is a poor mindset for debate.

Not saying we shuold be tolerant but we don't need to go the extra mile where bascially give a **** you to the designer

Playing a game differently from what he intended is hardly a **** you. Ideally, I'd be able to give him a nice big "**** you", though.

yes and the programmers did what Sakurai wanted. It isn't like the programmers get a **** say in anything.

They decide the values. They decide the mechanics. They may have a director for programming, but, in general, they have to figure out how to make things work. Have you ever worked on a project, or do you even know someone who has?

They do as they're told so Sakurai was responsible for brawl as it is now.

He's not responsible for the infinite on Ness/Lucas, or jab-locking, or Falco/D3's CGs. Well, maybe D3's. The programmers and testers are responsible for those oversights.

Wrong we were't there so we do not know what was going on conerning the testing.
you think they tested Brawl and found that ness and Lucas could get infinite grabbed by a large amount of the crew and then decided, hey lets leave that in.
Or Fox's drill shine infinite?
or wobbling?
bull ****

I actually do have an idea as to what was going on for the testing, at least for Brawl. They wrote up Kirby's swallowcide as being too difficult to escape, originally, they wrote up numerous problems with d3, and fixed random bugs involving transformations.

For Melee, they fixed Sheik's CG, changed Marth and Falco's dairs, and various other things. Drill-shining and wobbling weren't really known until after EU release, methinks. And yeah, Melee was created because of their errors and oversights. GGs

So you're telling me that Sakurai just said, hey make this game and the programmers made it and did not even once go back and have him look at it and determine if its what he wanted?

No, but I AM saying that he did not decide the exact percent behind every single attack, and probably didn't decide to incorporate diminishing returns. He can be blamed for tripping, how slow the game is, and, in all likelyhood, the removal of hitstun and l-cancelling. Chances are pretty high he can't even tell you the sending angles for most of the attacks.

Are you also saying that they ent back and balanced melee for the sake of competitive gamers?Hell no they dind't.

Uh, yeah, they did. The EU release has a LOT of changes made to it to better balance it. Do your research before making erroneous claims.

The majority of re-released games is simply to take out bugs or glitches that were unintentional that hadn't been found through testing.
you remember hot coffee?
programmers leave loads of crap on the game and its not uncommon to have several bugs and glitches go by unfound.
you don't honestly believe that they said melee is unbalanced lets go fix it.

No, I don't think they said that. I think they said, "since we're going to re-release it in Europe, let's fix some of these things that look to be problematic". See Sheik's dthrow.

As for the testers we already know Sakurai intended for tripping to be in the game. no one ignored you. Sakurai said it himself.

They ignored my posts regarding exactly what controls it.

Testers are just that, testers. they don't get a say, they don't find wavedashing and L canceling and many other tactics found by the competitive community. They test thats it. they don't think about competitive implications.

They did find wavedashing, and, chances are, l-cancelling. See "wave fall special". L-cancelling was something reincorporated from 64, but rebalanced. Testers DO think about competitive implications. They themselves are normally gamers. I know that the guy I've talked to has mentioned numerous things they changed for "competitive" aspects. GG not knowing your stuff.

they think something happened that was unintentional in the process they report it.

Or if it seems to ruin or unbalance gameplay, they report it. See Kirby's swallowcide, and the removal of laserlocking in the US version.

Obviously they did not catch wavedashing since Sakurai removed it this game.

Actually, they did. It was dubbed the "wave fall special", as you can find by looking in debug mode of Melee. Wavedashing isn't in this game because it uses the Havok engine. GGs on failing, yet once again.

obviously Sakurai wanted the game to be different he said it himself.

No way, really?

Yeah the programmers did all the work but thats because they are the grunts that do the work, they don't design the game.
That's why i said Sakurai is responsible for the issue concerning brawl, because the programmers don't often get a say in things.
Hell when Atari was still big the programmers didn't have a **** say in anything and often times were ignored.
hell there was a whole ****storm when their names werne't even given credit for making the game.

You seriously compared Atari, from waaaaaaaay back in the day, to a modern day corporation? Yeah, programmers don't have a say in a large part of the process, but they still have to figure out the values that do and don't work.

just as you have the designer and the seamstress.
Seamstress makes the stuff but the designer calls the shots and is ultimately responsible for everything that happens.

You don't have 1 programmer and 1 designer on a game of this magnitude. Poor analogy.

Ah well thats a pity then. If Sakurai doesn't want us coloring outside the lines and makes it so that outside the lines everything turns white then tahts just his intentions. Can't ge tpissed about that.

On the flipside, if we colour outside the lines after placing masking tape on top of the paper, so that we're able to, what is he going to do about it? Sick you on us?

1st: Pity. If Sakurai made it so that the colors turned white outside the lines then thats just his intente. go ahead and color but you have to stay within the lines. If he says you can only use red, green and blue that doesn't stop you from coloring it wwith only one or two colors.
In melee we basically did that, we never went outside the lines, we never changed the lines.
We were given several colors and made use of them so that we would get something else. We didn't go get a different crayon.

We broke that game, and abused it's engine. Don't act like you know what you're talking about if you didn't even play competitively. Things like the Black Hole Glitch were not "intended" by Sakurai. Hell, I'm fairly sure he had a conniption fit the first time he saw waveshining. We blended colours. Hell, if you want to liken it to a magical colouring book where you can't colour outside the lines, then we took and broke the crayons in half, performed magic on them, and proceeded to draw shapes outside the lines.

Second, of course not he's out to just cash his check and amke a buck nothing new.
Third, irrelevant considering we aren't in any position ot make any demands.
us changing a few values is different because WE never had an opinion on the game's design.
We aren't the ones designing Sakurai was.

We don't need to make demands. We can do what we want. We're not Sakurai's daughter, we're competitive gamers.

Even pros go so far out as to ban the imp.
Why?
Simply because when trace had the imp you might as well put your DS down and let yourself get killed.

Don't believe me go ahead and ask.

I don't need to ask. You just proved my point right there. They took steps to rectify something that ruined the game. We want to keep Brawl from being an infinite heavy campfest. That's not fun to us, so we're changing it.

im not trying to stop you from playing it but im not gonna let someone say this is the standard form of play if the majority of competitive players disagreed.

The majority of you aren't competitive players. You're scrubs that found a game that's really easy to play, and think you know what you're doing. Most of you haven't even placed top 5 in a tournament outside of GameStop and Play N Trade, and probably never will. You can keep attending these tournaments, we won't stop you, but we want an alternative for us.

it is why i said make a poll, if they say yes hack away. but I guarantee that increasing hitstun and removing tripping won't do anything for the metagame.

It will allow for better punishment options, and remove the random **** that can cost you a match. If Wolf dsmash spams, and you run in and grab him in the current version of Brawl, you're not following that grab up. You risk taking 12% minimum every time you try to punish him, and it's a LOT easier for him to spam the dsmash than it is for you to grab. You'll do maaaaaaybe the same amount of damage to him from the grab, but he can go right back to spamming that dsmash. Granted, some characters can run up, shield, and dsmash right back (ala Zelda), but the game is still incredibly defensive and campy. If you were able to do even a 25% combo from punishing him once, it would deter the campy sort of play that is prevalent in Brawl's current metagame.

I've played several games competitively, don't insinuate anything.
Want me to make a list or are you going to just ignore it?

Yeah, list them. Fighting games are the only ones I care about. While you're at it, tell me how many tournaments you've gone to, and how high you've placed. If you can manage it, I'd like to know if you've ever made money off them, as well.

oh and to shoot your stupid idea down.
Sports casters don't need to have played competitively, there are several who never played football competitively and guess what? they can still tell you when a bad play is a bad play.

Now, let's look at people announcing competitive gaming. Go listen to the old MLG announcers for SSBM, and tell me they can tell when a bad action is bad, before the player is punished. You have to intimately know the genre you're looking at to know what's good and what's bad. Sports casters (the good ones) still know what's going on, and, in general, the sport has been around for so long that's it's really really easy to see a good play and a bad one. Stack that on top of the fact that most of them say it's a bad play after the other team has been punished and, voila, the magic is dispelled. Good job using another terrible analogy.

I also lawl at ramblings about how the competitive gamers, the smallest group of gamers in general, should be the ones to dictate how a game should or should not be.
Really let's completely ignore the fact that we do not dictate how the game is designed.

its really amusing.

Competitive gamers such as myself are dictating how WE want to play with each other. We're not saying you can't play 4 player, FFA, with FS on. We're just saying we want to play this way. You're the one trying to tell us how to play. Cute, though, trying to say the minority doesn't matter. I suppose I could drop myself down to your level for a second and insinuate that the Jews didn't matter in Nazi Germany, eh? They were the minority, after all. Who cares what they thought?

then I shall say this as well.
While we do not know the full content of a developers intentions (sakurai has given ideas as to what he intended brawl to be) we should not disregard their intentions nor claim that we know how the game should or should bot be. We did not design the game we only played it. I want wavedashing and L canceling and apparently Sakurai did not.

Why should we blindly accept the developer's intentions? Even if Sakurai came up to me and said, "I do not want Brawl to ever be competitive. It should only be played 4 player, FFA, with items, on Hanenbow" I sure as hell wouldn't listen. Hell, I'd tell him to get on the plane back to his island and never come here again.

It's a pity you do not care because when it comes to the designer, the competitive community doesn't really mean **** in their eyes when it comes to cashing in the check.

Why do you worship someone who doesn't give two ****s about you? I'm really quite baffled as to why you defend him when you KNOW that your opinion doesn't matter to him. I don't respect people that don't respect me. Why should I respect his ideals when he goes out of his way to trounce mine?

You want to know what the base idea of designers think when making the game?
here I'll give you an idea.
**** competitive gamers. They don't mean a **** thing when it comes to making money.

Yeah, that's why GGXX has had 4 iterations, all with previous balancing issues addressed. Competitive gamers are the ones that buy your game 6 years after it came out, because their old copy died. They're the ones that will buy multiple versions of the same game. They're the ones that make you the most money, in the long run. If every developer thought like you did, then we wouldn't have games like GGXXAC, or SFIIHT, or anything like that. Truth is, Sakurai doesn't give a **** about us. Other fighting game developers do, because they know that we make them the most money, in the long run.

Simple, it isn't hard to figure out, especially when Sakurai practically broadcasts it on his the smashbros website.

See above.

I find it kinda sad that you're telling me to go suck Sakurai's teat considering I do agree with you on the point that Sakurai basically screwed over competitive gamers.

I'm not telling you to. I'm claiming that you already do. You seem to worship the man's ideas, regardless of how flawed, simply because he was the "designer".

What do I expect though, people get extremely stupid when they become emotional.

We agree on something, lolololol.

EDIT: After this post, I'm done reading through any super long posts made by you, ShadowLink. It's a chore having to read through your run-on sentences with very little capitalization or punctuation. In conjunction, we're just going in circles. This is like arguing abortion. No one is going to win at this rate, so just drop it. You have your opinions, we have ours. You might notice how you're the only one consistently arguing with mine and OPs posts. Everyone else just said "I don't like this" and moved on.

 

[SiegKnight]

I can't believe you typed all that out for someone who's so stuck on their own subjectivity they can't even begin to sound like an offense let alone put up a good defense in retaliation to a counter of yours, or even concede when all else fails. Why the hell did you bother typing that out for such a loser? He'll realize he's a nutcase in his own time if ever, and he seems way too headstrong about his lack of tact to really be offended. What the hell is wrong with you?

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I'm bored. Getting bored of this, though, so I'm done with the super long debates after this.

 

[127crazie]

I'm sort of liking the idea of making Brawl exactly like Melee in every way.

Can you tell I was being sarcastic? Hopefully it should have been obvious. If Brawl turns into Melee, then what would Brawl be? Melee! Can't people ever play Brawl as it is?

I mean, that's what makes something unique and fun! It's not a question of what people say works best competitively, because what it all boils down to change. What people are used to it tournaments is Melee styled gameplay, and those who can't handle the change into Brawl are trying to pull this sort of thing off.

Playing a video game in itself is about having fun, isn't it? Or did that sort of thing disappear a while ago? I'm sorry, but the idea of squeezing every drop of technical skills out of Brawl and changing it so much just doesn't sound too fun to me.

It would be interesting to use this for fun and comparison or whatever, but I think we should leave Brawl be and let it be its own animal.

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm sort of liking the idea of making Brawl exactly like Melee in every way.

Can you tell I was being sarcastic? Hopefully it should have been obvious. If Brawl turns into Melee, then what would Brawl be? Melee! Can't people ever play Brawl as it is?

I mean, that's what makes something unique and fun! It's not a question of what people say works best competitively, because what it all boils down to change. What people are used to it tournaments is Melee styled gameplay, and those who can't handle the change into Brawl are trying to pull this sort of thing off.

Playing a video game in itself is about having fun, isn't it? Or did that sort of thing disappear a while ago? I'm sorry, but the idea of squeezing every drop of technical skills out of Brawl and changing it so much just doesn't sound too fun to me.

It would be interesting to use this for fun and comparison or whatever, but I think we should leave Brawl be and let it be its own animal.

You're right. Completely and utterly right. Video games are for fun. A lot of people (although by no means the majority) would have more fun playing brawl this way, and that's why this project was started. If you don't wanna play this way, then don't. You've always got regular brawl to go to if you like that more.

 

[Toadster5]

I'm sort of liking the idea of making Brawl exactly like Melee in every way.

Can you tell I was being sarcastic? Hopefully it should have been obvious. If Brawl turns into Melee, then what would Brawl be? Melee! Can't people ever play Brawl as it is?

I mean, that's what makes something unique and fun! It's not a question of what people say works best competitively, because what it all boils down to change. What people are used to it tournaments is Melee styled gameplay, and those who can't handle the change into Brawl are trying to pull this sort of thing off.

Playing a video game in itself is about having fun, isn't it? Or did that sort of thing disappear a while ago? I'm sorry, but the idea of squeezing every drop of technical skills out of Brawl and changing it so much just doesn't sound too fun to me.

It would be interesting to use this for fun and comparison or whatever, but I think we should leave Brawl be and let it be its own animal.

Why are you here?

 

[Unseen_Killa]

Hey, I'd like to offer an opinion you probably didn't expect from a "scrub". I think what you're doing is great. When I'm playing someone I know I'm better then and they beat me because they camped or just got lucky, (I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU TRIPPING!?) I really do not feel the honor I think I deserve for putting my long hours into a game.

I think heavier gravity (and perhaps fixed recoveries for some characters to accompany the new gravity) would make approaches much easier. Add in some hitsun and l-cancelling and we'll get some real combos going. Honestly, why even approach when my friend can just camp and spam Pit's arrows? The camper wins way to often, and I don't want to play a ****ing game of patience.

So to sum it up, basically, I wouldn't mind playing like this. Ofc, I don't know if I'm willing to buck out $50 for USB Gecko, but if you could make it downloadble and transferable by way of Wii's memory card, then I'm all for.

Take in mind, I have BARELY played Melee. Only SSB64 about 6 months before Brawl release. I might not have a "professional" opinion, however I still think it holds some truth. I have watched many Melee videos though, and I love the way it plays. However, I can't drive, and nobody close to me plays Melee, which is why I have not purchased it.

Fyi, I think with a combined community effort, you guys could balance this quite well (minus the people who have no idea what they're talking about) and perhaps come to an agreement with certain stuff as far as attacks and jumps go, etc.

Defilently though, I feel for you pros, and I'd ****ing hate if I tripped in a competition.

 

[crosser43]

I'm sort of liking the idea of making Brawl exactly like Melee in every way.

Can you tell I was being sarcastic? Hopefully it should have been obvious. If Brawl turns into Melee, then what would Brawl be? Melee! Can't people ever play Brawl as it is?

I mean, that's what makes something unique and fun! It's not a question of what people say works best competitively, because what it all boils down to change. What people are used to it tournaments is Melee styled gameplay, and those who can't handle the change into Brawl are trying to pull this sort of thing off.

Playing a video game in itself is about having fun, isn't it? Or did that sort of thing disappear a while ago? I'm sorry, but the idea of squeezing every drop of technical skills out of Brawl and changing it so much just doesn't sound too fun to me.

It would be interesting to use this for fun and comparison or whatever, but I think we should leave Brawl be and let it be its own animal.

Why are you here?

No, that's not the question.
All the guy is doing is giving his opinion on how to play Brawl. Even thoughts some may disagree and think that it should be played another way, you shouldn't criticize how people want to play a game. Sure some people may not like to play one game, but this is Smashboards, and he likes Brawl. And to check up Brawl is Smash.
The question is why are you here? You've been here for 3 years with under 100 posts, real hardcore and productive.

Also, I think that Brawl should be played the way it is. I'm even leaning into not removing tripping. If Sakurai intended to put tripping in the game, then that's how it should be played right? But I wouldn't mind just removing tiny, big tweaks like those. If people a die hard Melee fans who long for the same game with more graphics and characters, let them use their hax and play it their stlye. Let them have their fun. Brawl is a different game, and if you're going to screw around with it to make it into another game, that's pretty wrong. People don't take years out of their lives to make a game, so others can find a hack and turn it into an improved version of the same game they created a few years back.

 

[Chris Lionheart]

I agree that tripping is bad and should be fixed.

Chaingrabbing of all sorts needs to be fixed.

Some hitboxes need a serious tonedown (esp. Snake)

Falcon's Knee should not have been nerfed. (I mean wtf he was mid-tier and rarely won competitions)

Ganondorf really didn't deserve a nerf. (Again...)

I couldn't care less about combos but I could live w/ or w/o them.

But some of the things you intend on doing are bad.

Sakurai was on the right track when he removed Wavedashing, Dash Dancing, L-Canceling, and those other advanced techniques that turned Melee from fun... to competitive.
These advanced techniques were abuses of the physics of the games which were completely unintended and turned the game from being about enjoying the simple pleasure of fighting to having to do rediculous advanced techniques constantly to mess with your opponent. I was glad to here that wavedashing was gone from Brawl... and I hope it stays that way.

 

[ShadowLink84]

So was I. 95% of the posters here are *******.

Oh.

And how would you know anything about balancing issues?

From experience and reading of accounts from reputable sources of course.
Just like anyone else I have to do some research.

Then I suppose we'd hack it more. We're not increasing hitstun to make it "balanced". We're doing it to make it more competitive. As long as GaW and Snake stay the same, and the ICs grabs allow for infinites, the game will not be balanced.

Yes but as you said it would mean having to alter the physics of the game itself.
It isn't jsut the fact at the bahvior of certain characters but the behavior of the game overall. Its what make Olimar and Wolf extremely good characters despite the fact that their play is somewhat one dimensional.
While the increased hitstun does allow for better punishment and increases the gap between skilled and unskilled, I don't think it would be enough to make the gameplay competitive.
The game would still be defense oriented.
granted this may change in a few months with some new AT or other technique but as it stands now characters like Ike and Ganandorf wouldn't fair any better than they do now. Mainly since they have little to no means of approaching a character.
It falls down to basically fighting jigglypuff in melee minus the rest.

My Sonic, and a few other Sonics, have lost to dsmash spamming wolf players. Granted, it was my first time playing against Wolf, but I see some major problems, namely, punishment. If you were to increase hitstun on even his uthrow by about 4-5 frames, you could punish with a uthrow uair, which does roughly 20%. Increase the stun on the uair by a little bit more, and hey, uthrow double uair, or uthrow uair fair are suddenly VERY viable punishment options, so you aren't just left with hoping to hit with fair, nair, or the pathetic 4% dash attack.

Same. For sonic the issue is more concerning punishment since he obviously has no problem getting up close to an opponent.
What I mean is that for characters such as ganandorf and Bowser, they have little means to take advantage of increased hitstun. Manily since they have little way to speed up their game.
Character like Sonic and Marth and Mk would be the only ones to truly benefit from it, since they have the means of taking advantage of mistakes and can approach normally difficult opponents.

The "halo genre" was not made competitive. It's a FPS, it's competitive. That's how they've been since the first ones came out for computer. An FPS has to be TERRIBLE to not merit being competitive. Or single player only.
So wait, suddenly you're cool with ignoring developers intents?

And this is a good thing... how?


First off, Halo 1 is MUCH better than 2 or 3, as far as actual gameplay mechanics goes. Second, they don't complain because they still have a competitive game. They didn't take away ammo, slow the game down, increase targeting reticles by 150%, make it so you can auto-avoid pincers, and give you health that recharges in one second. Third, you're comparing an FPS to a fighter. Finally, the sheep mentality is a poor mindset for debate.

Um actually they do.
You can visit many sites and ask them about the transition of Halo 1to Halo2 to Halo 3 and they will have several gripes.
Mainly due to auto assist aim and a few other things that bungie has done to edit the game which did have an impact on the competitive area.
Auto assist aim being the biggest mainly since shots that weren't even hitting on your screen would still kill you. Mind you this was all in person activity so you can imagine how abboyed people were.
In Halo 3 auto assist aim still existed but (I am unsure) was only existent in unzoomed fire.

Playing a game differently from what he intended is hardly a **** you. Ideally, I'd be able to give him a nice big "**** you", though.

They decide the values. They decide the mechanics. They may have a director for programming, but, in general, they have to figure out how to make things work. Have you ever worked on a project, or do you even know someone who has?

Yes actually. Most of the time however we were left entirely by ourself to decide things with the designer having little do with testing and other things.

In this case of Brawl I do beleive Sakurai was more involved than normal because O do beleive that had the programmers and testers been left to their own devices we wouldn't be dealing with silly crap like tripping.

He's not responsible for the infinite on Ness/Lucas, or jab-locking, or Falco/D3's CGs. Well, maybe D3's. The programmers and testers are responsible for those oversights.

I actually do have an idea as to what was going on for the testing, at least for Brawl. They wrote up Kirby's swallowcide as being too difficult to escape, originally, they wrote up numerous problems with d3, and fixed random bugs involving transformations.

For Melee, they fixed Sheik's CG, changed Marth and Falco's dairs, and various other things. Drill-shining and wobbling weren't really known until after EU release, methinks. And yeah, Melee was created because of their errors and oversights. GGs

Yes but those appear lesser compared to wobbling and drill shining.Things that were overlooked during simple testing, I doubt they got the idea that wobbling and dirll shining were possible.
Of course this isn't leaving the possibility of trying to remove broken abilities that some characters were capable.

Many of the errors in melee such as chain grabbing don't often pop up in the casual community.
Mind you a casual who just picked up the game with little to no knowledge of such things.
They appear to work more on the surface rather than get into the actual depth of the game itself. Fixing whats more obvious or more loudly complaint about.


Granted I am not saying they never payed attention to the community but I am quite sure they never thought wobbling or drill shining were possible or if they noticed it, thought it wouldn't affect the general gamer population.

No, but I AM saying that he did not decide the exact percent behind every single attack, and probably didn't decide to incorporate diminishing returns. He can be blamed for tripping, how slow the game is, and, in all likelyhood, the removal of hitstun and l-cancelling. Chances are pretty high he can't even tell you the sending angles for most of the attacks.

Yeah I am not saying he was involved so far as the angles and damage percentage of the attacks, just the overall framework of the gameplay.
He isn't going to be involved in the fac thtta Sonic has no priority but I do believe that because of his design we ended up with something that was defense orientated and removed many things from previous games that he hadn't wanted in the game.

Uh, yeah, they did. The EU release has a LOT of changes made to it to better balance it. Do your research before making erroneous claims.

I don't know all of the changes that were made to the EU version but I don't believe its as balanced as it could have been.
But thats just my opinion on that idea.

No, I don't think they said that. I think they said, "since we're going to re-release it in Europe, let's fix some of these things that look to be problematic". See Sheik's dthrow.

Yes but who were they thinking of when they thought problematic?
Sheiks D throw was more obvious along with some of the changes were made.
I do believe they were thinking more of the mainstream gamer rather than competitive when it came to the game.
Mainly since they didn't see wave drill shining, wobbling which aren't typically done by a casual.

They ignored my posts regarding exactly what controls it.

Ah that's a pity.

They did find wavedashing, and, chances are, l-cancelling. See "wave fall special". L-cancelling was something reincorporated from 64, but rebalanced. Testers DO think about competitive implications. They themselves are normally gamers. I know that the guy I've talked to has mentioned numerous things they changed for "competitive" aspects. GG not knowing your stuff.

Of course they found L canceling it would be near impossible for them to not have found it. Mainly because of SSB64 since they do pay attention to the going ons of gamers for some time. (another reason why I think Sakurai hates competitive aspects)

Not to say they don't think about competitive aspects but I do believe that they do end up having to cater more so towards the mainstream gamers.

Or if it seems to ruin or unbalance gameplay, they report it. See Kirby's swallowcide, and the removal of laserlocking in the US version.

in SSBB or SSBm I kinda got lost on which you're discussing here soz.

Actually, they did. It was dubbed the "wave fall special", as you can find by looking in debug mode of Melee. Wavedashing isn't in this game because it uses the Havok engine. GGs on failing, yet once again.

I know why wavedashing is not in this game lovely way to assume.

This had been known ever since the dojo announced that airdodging was based on momentum. Way to assume.
Furthermore, I apologize that was a typo on my part, I had been typing up a different response and deleted it improperly.
I had meant to say they DID find wavedashing which was why Sakurai removed it.

No way, really?

YAH RLY

You seriously compared Atari, from waaaaaaaay back in the day, to a modern day corporation? Yeah, programmers don't have a say in a large part of the process, but they still have to figure out the values that do and don't work.

Of course they do but the designer is eventually going to see the work has been done and approve or disapprove it. At least whatever he has seen which is why I do think Sakurai did place more attention to the development game than most despite the fact he dislikes working on it.

You don't have 1 programmer and 1 designer on a game of this magnitude. Poor analogy.

Analogies don't have to be exact they only need to be similar and bring out the same idea.
basically the designers call the shots and programmers do the grunt work.
If it isn't as the designers want the programmers have to go back and tweak it.

On the flipside, if we colour outside the lines after placing masking tape on top of the paper, so that we're able to, what is he going to do about it? Sick you on us?

I find it funny that you're assuming I am on his side.
Really read the tl;dr version post that I made a page or two back.

We broke that game, and abused it's engine. Don't act like you know what you're talking about if you didn't even play competitively. Things like the Black Hole Glitch were not "intended" by Sakurai. Hell, I'm fairly sure he had a conniption fit the first time he saw waveshining. We blended colours. Hell, if you want to liken it to a magical colouring book where you can't colour outside the lines, then we took and broke the crayons in half, performed magic on them, and proceeded to draw shapes outside the lines.

I made that analogy earlier where I said we were still in the lines and while Sakurai did give us a set amount of colors, we colored differently and mixed them to get different colors.
The black hole glitch was a result of how the game was made. I beleive there was an entire discussion on why the black hole existed.
Of course it wasn't intended neither was the competitive aspect but I am saying that it was because of his original intentions that such aspects were found.

Sticking to the coloring book its like he said here, use crayons red, blue and yellow and stay within the lines and we basically mixed red and yellow for orange, red and blue for purple, etc etc though we were still within the lines.
We hadn't done anything that went outside the game's original programming.
Wavedashing and L cancel they were a result of how the game was made.
Wave dashing due to directional airdodging and L canceling for whatever reason.
Wave dashing was the equivalent of taking red and blue to get purple.
We never went into the code of the game and changed things. We didn't go to the crayon box we weren't supposed to touch and pull out the gold crayon or lime green crayon or brick red one did we?

We don't need to make demands. We can do what we want. We're not Sakurai's daughter, we're competitive gamers.

We do need to make demands and we do need to raise our voices. I would much rather have the programmer make the game good and in a way that can appease us rather than mess with coding that isn't meant for the consumer to change.
Simply put we aren't the daughters as you put it, we're the mother ****ing master. Why let him do as he pleases with brawl?

I don't need to ask. You just proved my point right there. They took steps to rectify something that ruined the game. We want to keep Brawl from being an infinite heavy campfest. That's not fun to us, so we're changing it.

The problem being that not only is it absically going to use the usually locked crayon box but it also may not sit well with the others.
Just like wobbling such things should be agreed upon by the majority or should be tried out and seen if it is accepted.

I am not saying you shouldn't use hacks.
I am saying though that the consideration of the competitive community MUST be taken into account and if they deny such changes we really have no business messing with it.

The majority of you aren't competitive players. You're scrubs that found a game that's really easy to play, and think you know what you're doing. Most of you haven't even placed top 5 in a tournament outside of GameStop and Play N Trade, and probably never will. You can keep attending these tournaments, we won't stop you, but we want an alternative for us.

I placed top 4 in my local tournament with Sonic.
in melee I typically placed around 15th with my Link. (during the 5th year of Link).

To be blunt, who the **** are you to designate what I have or not been doing? Or what group I am in or not?
Or even better why you can't use your eyes and read and se ethe fact I 've actually agreed with you on what brawl is and should be. Or the fact I propose more than just increasing the hitstun if Brawl is to be more competitive?

I am not one to go out and tell people to stop being narrow minded but seriously, read my posts before you start harking about such things.
Seriously its freaking annoying,

It will allow for better punishment options, and remove the random **** that can cost you a match. If Wolf dsmash spams, and you run in and grab him in the current version of Brawl, you're not following that grab up. You risk taking 12% minimum every time you try to punish him, and it's a LOT easier for him to spam the dsmash than it is for you to grab. You'll do maaaaaaybe the same amount of damage to him from the grab, but he can go right back to spamming that dsmash. Granted, some characters can run up, shield, and dsmash right back (ala Zelda), but the game is still incredibly defensive and campy. If you were able to do even a 25% combo from punishing him once, it would deter the campy sort of play that is prevalent in Brawl's current metagame.

A good wolf isn't going to Dsmash spam. He's far more likely to laser spam you should know this just as well as I do.

With the current state of brawl punishment isn't going to be enough.

Tell me how many characters can actually approach wolf?
Mayb a handful maybe roughly 1/3rd of the cast.
That's nowhere near compared ot melee where 100% of the cast had the ability to approach a campy player.

Yeah, list them. Fighting games are the only ones I care about. While you're at it, tell me how many tournaments you've gone to, and how high you've placed. If you can manage it, I'd like to know if you've ever made money off them, as well.

The only one (fighting game) that I can say I've had the oppurtunity to actually play often was melee.
That wasn't until the 5th year of melee and I typically placed in 15th place with Link.
He doesn't do too well against Fox, Sheik and Marth.
The other FPS games that I did play competitively Halo and COD4 you don't care for so meh.

Now, let's look at people announcing competitive gaming. Go listen to the old MLG announcers for SSBM, and tell me they can tell when a bad action is bad, before the player is punished. You have to intimately know the genre you're looking at to know what's good and what's bad. Sports casters (the good ones) still know what's going on, and, in general, the sport has been around for so long that's it's really really easy to see a good play and a bad one. Stack that on top of the fact that most of them say it's a bad play after the other team has been punished and, voila, the magic is dispelled. Good job using another terrible analogy.

Oh so I guess that when people saw the infamous dark rain combo they said that Azen's DI was bad BEFORE Rain extended his combo and nailed him with a knee.
Yeah brilliant, I would love to see someone say they made a bad move until AFTER they were punished for it.

Competitive gamers such as myself are dictating how WE want to play with each other. We're not saying you can't play 4 player, FFA, with FS on. We're just saying we want to play this way. You're the one trying to tell us how to play. Cute, though, trying to say the minority doesn't matter. I suppose I could drop myself down to your level for a second and insinuate that the Jews didn't matter in Nazi Germany, eh? They were the minority, after all. Who cares what they thought?

I am not saying that you should play this way or that.
I am not saying you can't use hacks but I am saying you should have either the acceptance of the competitive community.
The minority gaming community IS the competitive community. THAT is what I mentionw hen Is ay Sakurai aimed only for the majority.
The majority being the MAINSTREAM gamers.
We are the minority the Competitive gamers. The mainstream gamers do not affect the competitive community just as the competitive community does NOT affect the mainstream community.
As such we should obtain acceptance from the COMPETITIVE community.
But you're the one thats constantly insinuating that I am dictating how a competitive community should play a game.
So simply do the equivalent of shutting up and READ my posts.
Here let me bold it for you since you apparently are incapable of reading anything completely.

There you go have a good time.

If you are dyslexic I can always record what I said on voice because obviously you keep missing it.

mmk I suppose that currently where a minority of christians are saying homosexuality is immoral or that homosexuality is the result of lust they must be right.
Or the even smaller portion that says homosexuals should be burned for being homosexuals that they surely must be right.

Don't be a hypocrite, if you're going to say Bad analogy refrain from using them yourself.

Why should we blindly accept the developer's intentions? Even if Sakurai came up to me and said, "I do not want Brawl to ever be competitive. It should only be played 4 player, FFA, with items, on Hanenbow" I sure as hell wouldn't listen. Hell, I'd tell him to get on the plane back to his island and never come here again.

Never said we should blindly accept the developers intentions.
However we must take it into CONSIDERATION
Key word.

Why do you worship someone who doesn't give two ****s about you? I'm really quite baffled as to why you defend him when you KNOW that your opinion doesn't matter to him. I don't respect people that don't respect me. Why should I respect his ideals when he goes out of his way to trounce mine?

I am baffled as to the idea why you think I am defending him.
DoI need to go and start bolding several of my posts.

Yeah, that's why GGXX has had 4 iterations, all with previous balancing issues addressed. Competitive gamers are the ones that buy your game 6 years after it came out, because their old copy died. They're the ones that will buy multiple versions of the same game. They're the ones that make you the most money, in the long run. If every developer thought like you did, then we wouldn't have games like GGXXAC, or SFIIHT, or anything like that. Truth is, Sakurai doesn't give a **** about us. Other fighting game developers do, because they know that we make them the most money, in the long run.

Except Smash bros isn't a true fighting game. Its more of a party game. Why the hell do you keep comparing the ideas of a fighting game developer to a party game developer.
That's like saying the Mario Party makers should do what Bungie did with Halo.
The majority of developers DO think about mainstream gamers.
Yes we have GGXXAC or SFIIHT but how often do those games make an actual impact on the market?

How often do you see such games where the competitive community makes up the majority of buyers in that game?

Seriously I've been icnredibly clear and detailed on the idea.
I'll bold again this will perhaps help your eyesight.

The majority of games made appeal to mainstream gamers. If you look back at all the games made you will find that in comparison of casual gamers to competitive gamers, the majority of buyers are casual.
This does NOT say that developers do not aim for the competitive community. Games such as Tekken, StarCraft are made with the competitive community on mind.
Games such as brawl, Mario Party, Kameo, mother ****ing UNO are games where the casual gamer is aimed for most. [/quote]

See above.

Couldn't say it any better than myself.

I'm not telling you to. I'm claiming that you already do. You seem to worship the man's ideas, regardless of how flawed, simply because he was the "designer".

Which would be contradictory to the fact where I AGREED with you that Sakurai hates the competitive community.
Where I support the fact that Sakurai screwed the competitive community.
Where have I worshpped his ideas?
Really read my posts. Siegknight ignores my posts are you doing the same?

EDIT: After this post, I'm done reading through any super long posts made by you, ShadowLink. It's a chore having to read through your run-on sentences with very little capitalization or punctuation. In conjunction, we're just going in circles. This is like arguing abortion. No one is going to win at this rate, so just drop it. You have your opinions, we have ours. You might notice how you're the only one consistently arguing with mine and OPs posts. Everyone else just said "I don't like this" and moved on.

You're not on my priority list when it comes to using proper punctuation.
Such a thing is saved for the stories I write, the research papers I write, or those who actually bother reading the entire sentence I have typed.

The reason I consistently argue is because YOU also continue to argue.
Why couldn't you just say I like this and move on as well?
Don't tell me not to argue and then argue.
Even worse is the fact that you're trying to make up my own ideas for me?
Worshipping the developers intentions?Designating how the competitive community should play?
What are you dyslexic?

I don't mind having a debate but apparently you and Siegknight either forget what I posted, or simply choose to ignore it and then come up with ideas on what I think.No forget that Siegknight just sees I disagree and snips the post.

Hell I bet Yuna would be capable of reading what I said and interpret it correctly. Or that DarknessOfTheHeart would be capable of interpreting my views properly.
The fact i have to bold my own opinions so that people don't get the wrong idea is incredibly frustrating.

 

[The Executive]

The majority of you aren't competitive players. You're scrubs that found a game that's really easy to play, and think you know what you're doing. Most of you haven't even placed top 5 in a tournament outside of GameStop and Play N Trade, and probably never will. You can keep attending these tournaments, we won't stop you, but we want an alternative for us.

Way to stick it to people whining about a project that won't affect them in the slightest. Seriously, if all these people think Brawl should be a party game, then why aren't they off partying instead of arguing with a minority group who really just want to play Brawl like it has some semblance of competitiveness? What did the competitive minority ever do to warrant this kind of backlash?

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Yuna's a troll. He'd just attack your character, much like you've been attacking mine.

How many people were at your tournament, and were there any ranked players from your state (talking about the top 4)?

15th in any tournament under 300 attendees is garbage. LoVo placed 2nd and 3rd consistently, and ***** Forward's Fox in NM. Link only has problems with Sheik. Marth is an even match, if not in Link's favor. Fox does decent, but once Link lands a hit, it's GG, Fox.

No johns on the proper punctuation.

Also, Fox's Usmash was nerfed, and I ~believe~, but could be wrong, that Marth's fair had some properties changed. The made a LOT of small changes to the EU SSBM that casual players would never have noticed, and it was most definitely for the competitive community.

Regardless, Imma test and see if we're on the same page:

We're going to work on this. If we actually get it off the ground, we're going to ask players that know what they're talking about for their opinions as to what hitstun goes where, for how long, and all that. We can't fix Ganon. Bowser can approach, much as DK can. He wouldn't have huge combos because, let's face it, Bowser would become ****. Ganon would probably get a little more hitstun on a few things, to allow him to actually combo or something once he finally catches up to that annoying *** Pit, but, in general, we can't fix him.

The game is going to be modified, but we're going to need professional opinions. That's all we're asking SWF. We're not going to wait for their approval, especially given how most people on the boards are even more oblivious to the mechanics of competitive fighters than you. At least you have competitive FPS for reference. Most of these people don't even know that much. Their opinions don't matter, we're doing what we want.

 

[BEES]

I'd wager a guess that 90% of the characters will have infinite chainthrows if you mess with the hitstun. Increasing the gravity will bump that up to 100%.

I'm all for taking out tripping and putting in L-canceling though.

Possibly rebalancing the characters a tidbit if you can. Captain Falcon, Sonic, and the Mother characters need it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yuna's a troll. He'd just attack your character, much like you've been attacking mine.

Those guilty of the same crime should not mention it

How many people were at your tournament, and were there any ranked players from your state (talking about the top 4)?

I cannot remember anything from that long ago.
Memory is shoddy for me,

15th in any tournament under 300 attendees is garbage. LoVo placed 2nd and 3rd consistently, and ***** Forward's Fox in NM. Link only has problems with Sheik. Marth is an even match, if not in Link's favor. Fox does decent, but once Link lands a hit, it's GG, Fox.

Meh as I said I never claimed myself to be the best but that I played competitively.
Nor do I believe you need to be the best to understand what the nature of competition is

No johns on the proper punctuation.

Lawl.

Also, Fox's Usmash was nerfed, and I ~believe~, but could be wrong, that Marth's fair had some properties changed. The made a LOT of small changes to the EU SSBM that casual players would never have noticed, and it was most definitely for the competitive community.

True enough.

Regardless, Imma test and see if we're on the same page:

We're going to work on this. If we actually get it off the ground, we're going to ask players that know what they're talking about for their opinions as to what hitstun goes where, for how long, and all that. We can't fix Ganon. Bowser can approach, much as DK can. He wouldn't have huge combos because, let's face it, Bowser would become ****. Ganon would probably get a little more hitstun on a few things, to allow him to actually combo or something once he finally catches up to that annoying *** Pit, but, in general, we can't fix him.

True but oddly enough I find that they can have issues dealing with characters with projectiles or those that are faster than them.
Not saying they can't approach but saying that the numbe r of viable options for them to approach are limited compared to say MK.
It's why Wolf and Pit are so incredibly annoying because their projectiles are really that good.

The game is going to be modified, but we're going to need professional opinions. That's all we're asking SWF. We're not going to wait for their approval, especially given how most people on the boards are even more oblivious to the mechanics of competitive fighters than you. At least you have competitive FPS for reference. Most of these people don't even know that much. Their opinions don't matter, we're doing what we want.

The main reason I mention the competitive community is because of such cases such as wobbling. Where it was banned in some tournaments but accepted in others where as previously I believe it was completely allowed for a period of time.
This isn't to say at the least that the hacks won't be considered but that because they are hacks they also tend to be viewed upon more negatively than usual.
Mainly because as I said it is viewed as changing the game rather than just manipulating what was given.

IMO I would prefer that some hacks be used so as to improve the gameplay, but I am somewhat disconcerted because the suggestion of hacks in competitive play tends to lead to **** storms.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Wolf's projectile is crap. Learn to perfect shield. Pit's arrows are alright, but unless you're a super slow character, they aren't all that bad. I'm not claiming you have to be the best to understand how a competitive fighter works, but you have to be good, in the least. Big, slow characters will always have problems with fast projectiles, and fast characters/characters with a better pressure game than fatty. Look at potemkin. He has problems with May, simply because of how hard of a time he has getting near her. He would probably have problems with Chipp, if a single combo didn't almost completely kill him. Slower characters will always have the disadvantage on approaching because they net higher rewards every time they hit.

The game has been out in the US for what... two months? I'm willing to wager that the tournament you took 4th at either didn't exist, or was full of nobodies.

The only people that look at the "hacks" negatively are you, and a billion other scrubs. Or perhaps just them, if you've changed your stance.

As an aside, a good Wolf player will abuse his shine, not his laser, much like a good Olimar will abuse his whistle more than any other move.

 

[SiegKnight]

Yuna's a troll. He'd just attack your character, much like you've been attacking mine.

How many people were at your tournament, and were there any ranked players from your state (talking about the top 4)?

15th in any tournament under 300 attendees is garbage. LoVo placed 2nd and 3rd consistently, and ***** Forward's Fox in NM. Link only has problems with Sheik. Marth is an even match, if not in Link's favor. Fox does decent, but once Link lands a hit, it's GG, Fox.

No johns on the proper punctuation.

Also, Fox's Usmash was nerfed, and I ~believe~, but could be wrong, that Marth's fair had some properties changed. The made a LOT of small changes to the EU SSBM that casual players would never have noticed, and it was most definitely for the competitive community.

Regardless, Imma test and see if we're on the same page:

We're going to work on this. If we actually get it off the ground, we're going to ask players that know what they're talking about for their opinions as to what hitstun goes where, for how long, and all that. We can't fix Ganon. Bowser can approach, much as DK can. He wouldn't have huge combos because, let's face it, Bowser would become ****. Ganon would probably get a little more hitstun on a few things, to allow him to actually combo or something once he finally catches up to that annoying *** Pit, but, in general, we can't fix him.

The game is going to be modified, but we're going to need professional opinions. That's all we're asking SWF. We're not going to wait for their approval, especially given how most people on the boards are even more oblivious to the mechanics of competitive fighters than you. At least you have competitive FPS for reference. Most of these people don't even know that much. Their opinions don't matter, we're doing what we want.

This entire post is full of win in its entirety

also, a game full of broken but fun stuff to learn is far better than a game full of balanced crap but with almost no complicated tools for each character to become good at

if it ain't broke, it ain't fun. Almost.

I'd be happy if everyone had an infinite chaingrab, at least it'd even out and mean that not any one character is unusable.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Wolf's projectile is crap. Learn to perfect shield. Pit's arrows are alright, but unless you're a super slow character, they aren't all that bad. I'm not claiming you have to be the best to understand how a competitive fighter works, but you have to be good, in the least. Big, slow characters will always have problems with fast projectiles, and fast characters/characters with a better pressure game than fatty. Look at potemkin. He has problems with May, simply because of how hard of a time he has getting near her. He would probably have problems with Chipp, if a single combo didn't almost completely kill him. Slower characters will always have the disadvantage on approaching because they net higher rewards every time they hit.

Hmm true enough.
The main reason I mention WOlf's projectile is not becausese its a good projectile, overall its on par with Lucarios but that it helps in pressuring your opponent and frustrating them.
I don't have problems dealing with Wolf as Sonic or Link.
Sonic's speed is more than enough to get close and Link's projectile game can overwhelm wolf's.

it becomes more of an Issue when I use Ike whose not overly slowl but his ability to approach safely is somewhat poor.

The game has been out in the US for what... two months? I'm willing to wager that the tournament you took 4th at either didn't exist, or was full of nobodies.

I know which is why I was hesitant somewhat to mention it,

The only people that look at the "hacks" negatively are you, and a billion other scrubs. Or perhaps just them, if you've changed your stance.

I make hacks for the DS and I receive tons of negative views from people regardless of how beneficial the hack is for the game.
Simply because someone dislikes hacks doesn't make them a scrub. You can ask any veteran of any game.
Nor has my stance changed.
I did bold parts of my posts remember?

Do a poll and you'll find more than enough will usually say no.

As an aside, a good Wolf player will abuse his shine, not his laser, much like a good Olimar will abuse his whistle more than any other move.

Really?
I thought his game relied mostly on camping and making use of the laser to bait the enemy and then shine or grab the enemy. Mainly since his throws are pretty decent.

 

[ph00tbag]

it wouldn't be normal to hack a game just for tournaments.

The SFII competitive community says hi.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The SFII competitive community says hi.

The majority of tournaments concerning competitive games usually don't use hacks.
That's what he had meant.

 

[SiegKnight]

thanks for putting that quote in your sig. Your insanity degrades it and makes it useless for the people I don't like around here who put it there.

Its the best thing you've ever done I'm sure

 

[ShadowLink84]

thanks for putting that quote in your sig. Your insanity degrades it and makes it useless for the people I don't like around here who put it there.

Its the best thing you've ever done I'm sure

Bolded part=Act your age not your shoe size siegknight.
No one cares who you like or do not like, just refrain from having the majority of your posts being flames.

 

[SiegKnight]

I don't know. Its a quote from a former semi-troll although its not particularly a trollish quote in its contents. *shrug*

2008?!! I THINK THAT YEAR MIGHT BE SOMETIME AROUND HERE.

HISTORIES SON

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't know. Its a quote from a former semi-troll although its not particularly a trollish quote in its contents. *shrug*

What matters is the content not the person.

2008?!! I THINK THAT YEAR MIGHT BE SOMETIME AROUND HERE.

HISTORIES SON

This pertains to what exactly?

 

[Sai Winner of Games]

I am helping out DB with this project now, and though it seems it may be difficult to keep everything balanced and obtain a consensus in the competitive community regarding the changes, I think it can be done. There are several competitive players that I usually play with here in Texas (fast like tree, xelic, chang-sta, etc.) who probably will not mind helping with testing and providing feedback.

If this project does not work it will likely be because of technical issues rather than balance and consensus issues that people are worrying about. If there are changes that we are not sure about regarding balance, we will just release a beta version that people can test but tournaments could still use the last stable version. The first version will probably only have tripping removed. I do not see a problem with that being used at every major tournament, if it does indeed work without the gecko. The next version will probably be in beta until its proven to be balanced and most people are happy with it.

 

[SiegKnight]

my insane sense of humor and how he added 2008 as the date of the quote to sound all eloquent. But it came off as kind of hysterical to me

 

[ShadowLink84]

my insane sense of humor and how he added 2008 as the date of the quote to sound all eloquent. But it came off as kind of hysterical to me

Mmk makes sense.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Sai, Colorado would be happy to run large-scale tournaments using modified Brawl. Do you guys actually have a thread/when do you discuss all this? You've got our full support, and we'll do what we can to help.

If I did a poll, it would be posted in the backroom. That's not to say that I think the backroom isn't full of idiots, it's just that the concentration is a little lower. Dun care what the boards think, yadda yadda.

Also, you've obviously never played a good Wolf. His projectile lags too much for him to do anything after it if it's perfect shielded. Lucario's is a much better projectile, for numerous reasons.

 

[NES n00b]

Who said Fox matchup was sort of even with Link and Sheik was the only one to give Link trouble? If this was true, Link would have been used more often wouldn't he? Why don't you try playing as Link in Melee? See how it feels to try to play against Space Animals, Sheik, and CF without going insane from the lopsided matchups. When your character is only going even with characters like Pikachu and has slight disadvantages against characters like Mario and Ganon while also having almost all the high tiers being super lopsided (besides Marth and Peach and they still have the advantage =( ), you know there is something wrong with that character.

Also, it is pretty obvious this game is not that much in terms of depth. Maybe it can actually be better with somethings changed. Seriously, changing some values like the sheild release time, hitstun, sheildstun, and certain throw knockbacks would do wonders for the game. Then, also imagine having some more freedom with your movement like allowing Dash Dancing back in. Unfortunately, how we would we agree what to stay what to leave alone and how to balance, blah blah blah. Maybe, we should follow Capcom's philosophy (and what Melee SEEMED to do), give somethings that are broken to each character and try to somewhat balance around that. And for general game mechanics, make some kind of arbitrary (with some common sense) blanket changes for them, then change on a case by case basis by play testing which I hope we would be better at than Nintendo's.

 

[ShadowLink84]

If I did a poll, it would be posted in the backroom. That's not to say that I think the backroom isn't full of idiots, it's just that the concentration is a little lower. Dun care what the boards think, yadda yadda.[/qute]
True. It makes you feel al ittle alienated somewhat >.<

Also, you've obviously never played a good Wolf. His projectile lags too much for him to do anything after it if it's perfect shielded. Lucario's is a much better projectile, for numerous reasons.

What about if Wolf is at a distance.
usually when I face a wolf with Ike I find that typically they usually attack from a distance so that they can lessen the risks of getting punished after being perfect shielded.

I have no issue since with Sonic I can usually close the distance after perfect shielding very easily but find it more difficult for Ike.
Granted the sword offers good range but it can be frustrating if the wolf keeps playing keep away.

 

[Sai Winner of Games]

Sai, Colorado would be happy to run large-scale tournaments using modified Brawl. Do you guys actually have a thread/when do you discuss all this? You've got our full support, and we'll do what we can to help.

We just discussed this over IM briefly. Just PM one of us your screen name if you want to talk or help now, I guess. DB wanted to get a website with forums up and running after finals were over. I think he is still looking for a place to host it.