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Upstate New York Tournament Thread

altairian

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 13, 2009
Messages
1,594
Location
Ballston Spa, NY
Well i don't think he's far off. Seems about right to me.
Being geared toward "hardcore" doesn't necessarily make it geared toward "competitive". There's very little balance between the characters in melee, or any smash game for that matter. The metagame is dominated by a small subset of the cast, which imo is not how a game is designed to be competitive. Yes, no matter how hard you try there's always going to be tiers in a game with this many unique characters, but creating only a few viable ones makes me believe that competitive balance was not part of the design plan.

For example, didn't they balance SSF4 a lot better than they did the original SF4? That's designing for competitive play.
 

BetaBahamut

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
294
Location
Syracuse, NY
There's very little balance between the characters in melee, or any smash game for that matter. The metagame is dominated by a small subset of the cast, which imo is not how a game is designed to be competitive. Yes, no matter how hard you try there's always going to be tiers in a game with this many unique characters, but creating only a few viable ones makes me believe that competitive balance was not part of the design plan.
I gotta disagree with you a little here alt. I feel the way melee was made kinda lessens this factor. Yes Top tier is way better then Low tier. Yet the thing that I think sets melee apart(at least from brawl) is its mechanics which allow skill to overcome character disadvantage.

Edegaurding is one of those mechanics. for only a few good reads you can take your opponents whole stock.
 

altairian

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 13, 2009
Messages
1,594
Location
Ballston Spa, NY
I gotta disagree with you a little here alt. I feel the way melee was made kinda lessens this factor. Yes Top tier is way better then Low tier. Yet the thing that I think sets melee apart(at least from brawl) is its mechanics which allow skill to overcome character disadvantage.

Edegaurding is one of those mechanics. for only a few good reads you can take your opponents whole stock.
Meh I don't really want to get in to a "this game requires more skill" debate. That's not the point I'm trying to make anyway, simply that when melee was being designed, competitive play was not one of the things they designed the game for. That's all I'm saying lol, obviously I don't think that it shouldn't be played competitively or anything, or else I wouldn't be here :p


The players of a game (competition) determine whether or not it is competitive.
Was it really that difficult? :130:
oh I missed this. Again not the point I'm trying to make. The point is what they DESIGNED the game for. Since someone made a comment about brawl not being DESIGNED for competitive play. I think it's sort of silly to make that distinction only with brawl, as they were all designed to be party games above all else. We created the competitive aspect, not sakurai.
 

Minic

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 15, 2010
Messages
91
Location
Rochester
Being geared toward "hardcore" doesn't necessarily make it geared toward "competitive". There's very little balance between the characters in melee, or any smash game for that matter. The metagame is dominated by a small subset of the cast, which imo is not how a game is designed to be competitive. Yes, no matter how hard you try there's always going to be tiers in a game with this many unique characters, but creating only a few viable ones makes me believe that competitive balance was not part of the design plan.

For example, didn't they balance SSF4 a lot better than they did the original SF4? That's designing for competitive play.

We created the competitive aspect, not sakurai.
Tiers are going to exist no matter what, but I don't think the it means the lower tier characters aren't viable (at least not for smash), which in the end is what leads me to using these low tier characters. RTF's comment i think is true for the most part cuz i see mango ****** ppl with mario these days, but as for the competitive aspect, last part is definitely spot on.
 

RTF

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 19, 2007
Messages
1,037
Location
No Longer Bumping With Content, Smörgåsbords
So what? Aside from the game disc, the only other rules are set by the players. In terms of character diversity both games fare pretty well. There is even counter-picking and legal stages to help balance the characters. In Brawl there's the balanced/+/- and general updated versions... Part of being a good competitor is making an informed decision at the character selection screen.

Blunt TL;DR:
Don't like your ****ty main/game? Get a new one. No one is stopping you.
 

BetaBahamut

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
294
Location
Syracuse, NY
Meh I don't really want to get in to a "this game requires more skill" debate..
I didnt want that either My bad. Im just saying even though a game may not be designed to be competitive doesnt auto make it uncompetitive ( which i know you werent arguing that either >.<)
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
*Sees the thread title* I miss Dr. Grandpa :[ lol

go to pound, you should be able to chill with him there.

The players of a game (competition) determine whether or not it is competitive.
Was it really that difficult? :130:
I love you sometimes. always making things super simple.
I gotta disagree with you a little here alt. I feel the way melee was made kinda lessens this factor. Yes Top tier is way better then Low tier. Yet the thing that I think sets melee apart(at least from brawl) is its mechanics which allow skill to overcome character disadvantage.

Edegaurding is one of those mechanics. for only a few good reads you can take your opponents whole stock.
this is why I like brawl so much more than melee. In melee, all you need to win is a few good reads and proper knowledge of followups. where as brawl requires you to be smarter than your opponent on a long term scale. almost every time you hit your opponent, it puts them in a position where even tho you have the advantage, they can still out smart you, avoid your follow up and counterattack and put you in the same bad situation you were just pressing against them. some people get salty or w/e because they think 'oh well you can just airdodge/powershield everything.' but once you realise how easy it can be to take advantage of those options when they become predictable, the game gets much deeper and becomes more focused on, who can read and out smart their opponent better and more effieciently over a long period of time. as opposed to who can waveshine/pillar better.

Only reason Im worth anything in that game (if I am) is just because Im constantly tossing out hard read moves and if you get touched once, i pretty much get half your stock or more for free.


Tiers are going to exist no matter what, but I don't think the it means the lower tier characters aren't viable (at least not for smash), which in the end is what leads me to using these low tier characters. RTF's comment i think is true for the most part cuz i see mango ****** ppl with mario these days, but as for the competitive aspect, last part is definitely spot on.
oh god. when you look at all 26 characters, melee is probably one of the least balenced games this side of mvc2. 20 out of the 26 characters are completely useless outside of lolz matches.

You make it seem like the fact that its smash is correlated to why you play low tiers. when its actually:
1. Because you usually just play who you like regardless of how good they are.
2. because you are spammy and campy and super defensive, and will most likely play that type of character anyway.
3. You play low tiers in almost every game explicitly because theyre low tier.

You see mango doing well with mario, but he hasnt WON anything or even placed anywhere near the money, with the exception of doubles since he started playing mario, because mario is terrible.

I didnt want that either My bad. Im just saying even though a game may not be designed to be competitive doesnt auto make it uncompetitive ( which i know you werent arguing that either >.<)
part of what makes this fun is that you can see view points other than your own, people need to stop trying to be so PC and just have and opinion and stick to it and discuss it. Dont be obstinate, but at the same time, dont *****foot around people.

its fun to have disagreements sometimes, it gives us somethign to talk about. and hell, you might learn something you didnt know before.
 

huMps

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
708
Location
On the fence
goggles way more than 20 out of the 26 charecters are viable for tourney. I don't know why you are always making references to national tournaments to prove your points. First off even if you do main fox or puff you probably won't win. Just the way it is when your at a tourney with 300 entrants. And just for some examples hugs axe germ cosmo place in the money every once and a while. Is money really the reason you play though?

had to rush this post
 

Foy

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Messages
2,042
Location
Modesto at &lt;3
In melee, all you need to win is a few good reads and proper knowledge of followups. where as brawl requires you to be smarter than your opponent on a long term scale. almost every time you hit your opponent, it puts them in a position where even tho you have the advantage, they can still out smart you, avoid your follow up and counterattack and put you in the same bad situation you were just pressing against them. some people get salty or w/e because they think 'oh well you can just airdodge/powershield everything.' but once you realise how easy it can be to take advantage of those options when they become predictable, the game gets much deeper and becomes more focused on, who can read and out smart their opponent better and more effieciently over a long period of time. as opposed to who can waveshine/pillar better.

Only reason Im worth anything in that game (if I am) is just because Im constantly tossing out hard read moves and if you get touched once, i pretty much get half your stock or more for free.


Melee requires so much knowledge just to get the first hit though. You have to make safe correct approaches, especially if you're playing space animals because everyone ***** you so hard for one mistake. In brawl you have the luxury of the game not being nearly as punishing in most cases, so you can play less safe to get an approach, which in the end, only really leads to one or two more hits (outside of chain grabbing).

And follow ups in melee are incredibly hard. The timing is tighter, there are more inputs, and everything happens much faster. And most of the ridiculous follow-ups aren't super easy and have escape options (like up throw up air with fox). In brawl the dumbest follow-ups (chain grabs and grab releases in my opinion) are character specific guaranteed, and only require you to follow a tight timing that doesn't ever really have to be adjusted in accordance with your opponents di.

You always make melee seem to be solely about tech skill. There are days where I am technically perfect, and I could still not have my head in it. If the game were all about wave shining and pillars then it would seem those options are the best, when really those have holes in them as well. They are good options, but if your opponent is any sort of intelligent, then they can be gotten out of, or at least made more difficult to execute, increasing a potential chance to escape. Melee not only rewards you for being technical, it rewards you much more to be able to appropriately apply your tech skill in the most productive ways.

oh god. when you look at all 26 characters, melee is probably one of the least balenced games this side of mvc2. 20 out of the 26 characters are completely useless outside of lolz matches.

You make it seem like the fact that its smash is correlated to why you play low tiers. when its actually:
1. Because you usually just play who you like regardless of how good they are.
2. because you are spammy and campy and super defensive, and will most likely play that type of character anyway.
3. You play low tiers in almost every game explicitly because theyre low tier.

You see mango doing well with mario, but he hasnt WON anything or even placed anywhere near the money, with the exception of doubles since he started playing mario, because mario is terrible.


I count:
Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs, Peach, Falcon, Ganon, Doc, Samus, Ice Climbers. Eleven characters, with Pika, Luigi, DK, and Link pushing close to playable. Can you stop being such a monster pessimist and make melee out to be a horribly imbalanced game. Look at how horrible Mewtwo is. Look how when really explored, in this case by Taj, you find a player can actually overcome some hurdles and execute some broken ****. I'm not saying Mewtwo is good, I'm just saying as you get better and better, it becomes less about match ups, and more about player on player. The tiers sort of squeeze closer together, still exist, but mean less.

And I don't know why Minh plays low tiers. He enjoys them more than other characters, or he does it out of a sense of over accomplishing fulfillment would be the likely answers. But regardless he is a talented player, and enriches the community by not only his playing, but playing a character that would not otherwise exist in our community.

Not to John for Mango, but there seems to be a clear distinction of when he tries, and when he could care less. You COULD be a talentless scrub and just be like he lost, Mango is terrible, or you could really play the game and see yea Mango lost, but let's see how far he actually took Mario in a nat, and the named players he beat in Mario's apparent awful match ups. Minh does the same ****. And don't come in and be like, oh local kids are bad. By my count there are actually a lot of solid players around here, and they are only all getting better. Even you are still getting better, albeit slower given that you care only to play to maintain your skill.
This is Vicious, responses in white.

By the way, I've been giving it tons of thought lately. I think this would be our current melee PR, dudutsai, goggles, and rtf removed as per request.

1. JesiahTEG (Falco)
2. Vicious (Fox)
3. PikaPika (Sheik)
3. TML (Falcon/Fox)
5. Minh (Link/Marth)
6. Trademark (Peach/Fox)
7. Foy
8. Beta
9. Cura
10. Nightro/Spamus?
 

TheManaLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
6,283
Location
Upstate NY
i can't necessarily disagree with your hearsay on the pr. but i think in all honesty those serious about being on it need to all get together and do a round robin, everyone plays everyone.

and im more falcon/zelda/fox
 

Sheth

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Messages
471
Location
Baltimore, MD
NNID
Shethblade
3DS FC
4639-8959-1952
As a brawl, main, I think I'mma just say;

-I think melee has more viable character options at anything but the most srs of srs business play. Though it depends, too, because I feel that the lower characters suffer a lot more from having to go on the offense in melee. Still, opinion stands.

So how's this car down here for pound looking, anywho?
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
looking like me, san, sharky, neil, and either jason or vibe. Probably leaning towards jason since its way easier for us, all things included.
 

Sheth

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Messages
471
Location
Baltimore, MD
NNID
Shethblade
3DS FC
4639-8959-1952
Easycap is pretty legit. Drivers are balls, but they work. I have some pinnacle something or other now too that I got for xmas, so I just use that now anyway.
 

VibeSlyph

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
995
Location
Albany/Troy NY
I think the brawl vs. melee discussion is pretty hilarious

I mean, brawl has a PRed Yoshi, just like melee has a PRed Link. Get over your hard-ons for your preferred games are realize that both games have a competitive scene for a reason.
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
not really.

if you have a region with 10 good players, and you make a ten man pr, then those ten people are going to be on the pr, regardless of who they play.

if you have a region with 30 good players, and you make a 10 man pr, then its going to be a bigger process as to who gets on it. and usually natural selection will result in the high tier players being on it more often since over a long period of time, the people playing good characters will out perform the lesser characters.

there will always be a few execeptions but if you have 2 people that are around the same level but one plays the best character and one plays a weak character, the best character is going to win more often in situations where the weak character wont.

ex: I could be justin wong, or sanford kelly, but im not going to beat clockwork with shuma gorath, ryu, and roll.

@vibe, i could probably get on our brawl pr with ganon only. it really doesnt matter with a scene as small as ours. and last I checked NCs scene is just as small as ours, maybe even smaller.
 

VibeSlyph

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
995
Location
Albany/Troy NY
I could show you a brawl/melee PR for a state where both PRs only have higher tier characters. My point isn't scene based, my point is game based.
 

PieDisliker

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
1,579
Location
Utica, NY
NNID
PieDisliker
Just started playing Ness again.

I don't know if I'm going to take Ness seriously, but I found the Diddy matchup easier as Ness than Wario. The Diddy matchup is also really really really fun as Ness.
 

PoofyHair

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
274
Location
Rochester
I really love my fightstick it's just that I lack a PS3 to play on at the moment...

Rob want to play some meree tomorrow? I don't have a disk I gave it to the apartment seeing that I lack time to play lately but I feel like taking a break from work for a bit tomorrow.
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
4,126
Location
Rochester, NY
Yo to all Melee players especially Steffon...if you want to see the best commentator ever, watch the fuzzyness vs armada money match...SO FUNNNNNY
 
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