memphischains
Smash hhkj'
I just play.
-
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Up-10.04 Matching Your Sonic Game to your opponent's play style
- Thread starter darkNES386
- Start date
Hitaku
Smash Journeyman
How informative. =P
nice post hitaku, i think you covered a lot of sonic's good techniques.
another interesting point in a thread like this: "i dont always play the same"
i think i notice changes in my sonic playstyle every time i play. because typically i think about which moves may work, and i try them.. but its easy to forget about things.
how long have u gone in a match and realized that u havent used a hyphen smash or a homing attack in ages? happens to me all the time..
personally, i feel like sonic has TOO MUCH usable tactics at his disposal.. which ***** for mind games, but i need somehting that is just over powered like a zelda fair.
another interesting point in a thread like this: "i dont always play the same"
i think i notice changes in my sonic playstyle every time i play. because typically i think about which moves may work, and i try them.. but its easy to forget about things.
how long have u gone in a match and realized that u havent used a hyphen smash or a homing attack in ages? happens to me all the time..
personally, i feel like sonic has TOO MUCH usable tactics at his disposal.. which ***** for mind games, but i need somehting that is just over powered like a zelda fair.
Napilopez
Smash Lord
I think it would be helpful to this thread if everyone who haad described their playstyle mentioned briefly which characters they have trouble with the most and which of the top/high characters they find easiest. This way perhaps we can learn something from eachoters styles and how they are effective or not against certain chars.
Hitaku
Smash Journeyman
I used to have this issue a lot when I first started playing. I would often realize that I'd stayed on one tactic for too long or I would just completely forgot about a combo/attack. To break myself of it I tried focusing on each approach/attack/combo during friendlies rather than actually trying to win =P. After a good period of time where I used each approach/attack/combo during each match I stopped forgetting as much.
To be honest the only character I really feel helpless against is Metaknight. Other than that I have my hard match-ups, but I would say it's generally just player skill at that point. I'm sure there are some match-ups I'm not thinking of....I'll post more on it tomorrow (5:30 AM for me lol....need sleep). As for easy match-ups, I have a fairly easy time with DDD and Lucario.
Browny
Smash Hater
oh lol easy time vs lucario, dont let the lucario mains see that XD
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Me too.
As for disheartening matchups, for me that would definately be Wario. My friend plays a very aggressive Wario, and I really don't enjoy being put on the defensive all the time. Bite isn't as annoying as it used to be (thanks Tenki), but that f-ing aerial mobility is just screwing with my spacing and punishment.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i dont play good warios
i play good D3s lucario, pika, snake, MK, ROB, Falco,
the MK match is stupid, just because I know how to 3 stock any sonic with MK, so i dont bother playing it,
the ones that trouble me, are snake, pika, and falco somewhat
i play good D3s lucario, pika, snake, MK, ROB, Falco,
the MK match is stupid, just because I know how to 3 stock any sonic with MK, so i dont bother playing it,
the ones that trouble me, are snake, pika, and falco somewhat
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
sometimes i spin dash
Blarfenzo
Smash Journeyman
I play very aggressively.
Lots of pressure.
Few mindgames, but that in itself is a mindgame.
My hardest Match up is Wario, my easiest high-top tier match up is Marth.
He's way too easy.
Edit- Fawk, friends account by accident. >_>
Lots of pressure.
Few mindgames, but that in itself is a mindgame.
My hardest Match up is Wario, my easiest high-top tier match up is Marth.
He's way too easy.
Edit- Fawk, friends account by accident. >_>
LOLI play very aggressively.
Lots of pressure.
Few mindgames, but that in itself is a mindgame.
My hardest Match up is Wario, my easiest high-top tier match up is Marth.
He's way too easy.
Edit- Fawk, friends account by accident. >_>
and the ironic part about the account is... he's a Wario player too
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People tell me that I have a slow Sonic. I'm all about spacing and precision. I just use Sonic's speed to take advantage of certain situations (duh, like punishing lag, avoiding spam via spinshot/shield dash, etc.) I <3 foxtrot to pivot smashing. I use it a lot against Fox or Falco if the do a sloppy over B recovery slightly above the edge. I punish it everytime with a well spaced foxtrot pivot smash or just with anything else really. I toss in side B cancels from time to time, but I prefer ASC and ASC shield cancels. I'm good at pressuring offstage...for the most part...I get really predictable. I do the offstage dair approach too much..it's not even that great, lol.
JayBee
Smash Champion
Darkness, can u do me a fav and post a link to my thread? this thread sound like it'll be very good, and I can't believe I hadn't really focused on this in mine like u plan to.
But many people have told me that I have a very unique style of Sonic. but first let me talk about some of the subgroups that I think Sonic can go under.
Agressive/Defensive
As this is too broad IMO, I broke it down furthur , allowing for types:
Combo type: This kind of Sonic plays very agressively, aiming to get the most out of all of his attacks to extend the combo as much as possbile. because of this they tend to overextend themselves, which can lead to disaster, more so then the other types. Though they can kill faster, the chance of making errors increase, meaning they may be killed just as fast.
Ground type this kind of Sonic player loves tilts, Jabs, Dash A, and Spins. These types tend to be really good with footsies, and have a keen eye for when to dodge, making them more difficult to grab. The only problem is, that this takes lots of skill, since Sonic's close up game is not great due to low priority.
Air type: These Sonic players are very skilled in particular with the Spring Jump, the ASC and its mixups, as well as having an advanced recovery set. it is harder to kill these Sonics than others, due to thier tendancy to Spring jump, or Spin Shot to safety. They use this to close the gap and initiate combos as well, revolving around the aerials. they will mix up with ASC>grab to keep you honest. However, the weakness of this is that predictability must be kept very low, or you may get punished severly once you land. In addition, Sonic is more vulnerable in the air in most cases due to lack of priority and his slow fall speed. though this player knows that and can nullify this to an extent, the issue still remains.
Grappler type: These Sonics use grabs, pummels and throws as thier primary offense, switching to other moves like smashes to mix it up. they understand sonic's speed well, and use it to close the gap quickly to punish on lag. After the throw, they are very solid at techchasing for more grabs, and mixing them up with smashes to keep the opponent honest. The one thing to really worry about, is that if the opponent takes the aerial approach to counter or plays keepaway often, then this sonic player cannot capitiolize as much, and must resort to other tactics. In addition, this type is very stage dependant.
Edge type: Once this Sonic player gets an opponent of the ledge, it become very difficult for the opponent to get back on, despite percentage. Sonic is a good gimper, but this player makes him annoyingly so. He is very solid in all edgegaurding tactics, from instant edgehog to Dair Spike> Homing attack, as well as wall bouncing and teching to prevent getting spiked himself. He goes for grapples near the edge, in hopes of stage spikes often, and is just as knowledgable with recovery as an air type. he is also equally as good getting back after getting knocked off, but in a more defensive manner than the Air type. if the opponent stays in the middle of the stage and is good at keepaway, then this type has issues.
Punish type: This is more of a balanced sonic, that utilizes his speed, and is very good with mindgames to create an opening for himself, rather then waiting for the opponent to make an unforced one. Once this Sonic gets it, he makes the most of it, with all of his moves. This one is very adapatble, defensive one moment, and agressive at any moment. because he uses many of his moves multiple times to punish, like the bair or the Fsmash, this weakens the attacks when its time for the kill. But this type is good at using most if not all methods of KOing to compensate.
Camper type: This Sonic can be considered the "slowest" of the Sonic types due to its more patient playstyle. It utilizes a lot of bairs, f tilts, and other movements to outmanuver and make the opponent commit unforced errors, which will lead into more subsequent damage from combos, throws, etc. This may not work if the opponent can get Sonic off balance with thier offence well, either by using overwhelming offense (MK) or an annoying projectile game (ROB) But against characters that need to get closer, sonic can use this style to his advantage and dictate the flow of the match and time. you will see many empty jumps, Foxtrorts, and other movements the use sonics dash to play outside of the opponents maximum range, forceing them to advance, or become very campy themselves, allowing the Sonic to slowly pick them apart.
Now what I propose is, based on this info (which can be altered; its not set in stone aka plz comment) is that we send in vids or we look at vids of Sonic players as a whole, and determine from them what thier primary types are, in a 1,2,3 format. meaning, you could be a " Ground/Grapple/Edge" type, which would mean you are very dependant on your ground game, and may need to balance it with your aerial game, or maybe a "Grapple/Punish/Combo" type, which would sorta mean that if you are really good at forcing you opponent into mistakes, and making them pay in almost any situation.
Discuss.
But many people have told me that I have a very unique style of Sonic. but first let me talk about some of the subgroups that I think Sonic can go under.
Agressive/Defensive
As this is too broad IMO, I broke it down furthur , allowing for types:
Combo type: This kind of Sonic plays very agressively, aiming to get the most out of all of his attacks to extend the combo as much as possbile. because of this they tend to overextend themselves, which can lead to disaster, more so then the other types. Though they can kill faster, the chance of making errors increase, meaning they may be killed just as fast.
Ground type this kind of Sonic player loves tilts, Jabs, Dash A, and Spins. These types tend to be really good with footsies, and have a keen eye for when to dodge, making them more difficult to grab. The only problem is, that this takes lots of skill, since Sonic's close up game is not great due to low priority.
Air type: These Sonic players are very skilled in particular with the Spring Jump, the ASC and its mixups, as well as having an advanced recovery set. it is harder to kill these Sonics than others, due to thier tendancy to Spring jump, or Spin Shot to safety. They use this to close the gap and initiate combos as well, revolving around the aerials. they will mix up with ASC>grab to keep you honest. However, the weakness of this is that predictability must be kept very low, or you may get punished severly once you land. In addition, Sonic is more vulnerable in the air in most cases due to lack of priority and his slow fall speed. though this player knows that and can nullify this to an extent, the issue still remains.
Grappler type: These Sonics use grabs, pummels and throws as thier primary offense, switching to other moves like smashes to mix it up. they understand sonic's speed well, and use it to close the gap quickly to punish on lag. After the throw, they are very solid at techchasing for more grabs, and mixing them up with smashes to keep the opponent honest. The one thing to really worry about, is that if the opponent takes the aerial approach to counter or plays keepaway often, then this sonic player cannot capitiolize as much, and must resort to other tactics. In addition, this type is very stage dependant.
Edge type: Once this Sonic player gets an opponent of the ledge, it become very difficult for the opponent to get back on, despite percentage. Sonic is a good gimper, but this player makes him annoyingly so. He is very solid in all edgegaurding tactics, from instant edgehog to Dair Spike> Homing attack, as well as wall bouncing and teching to prevent getting spiked himself. He goes for grapples near the edge, in hopes of stage spikes often, and is just as knowledgable with recovery as an air type. he is also equally as good getting back after getting knocked off, but in a more defensive manner than the Air type. if the opponent stays in the middle of the stage and is good at keepaway, then this type has issues.
Punish type: This is more of a balanced sonic, that utilizes his speed, and is very good with mindgames to create an opening for himself, rather then waiting for the opponent to make an unforced one. Once this Sonic gets it, he makes the most of it, with all of his moves. This one is very adapatble, defensive one moment, and agressive at any moment. because he uses many of his moves multiple times to punish, like the bair or the Fsmash, this weakens the attacks when its time for the kill. But this type is good at using most if not all methods of KOing to compensate.
Camper type: This Sonic can be considered the "slowest" of the Sonic types due to its more patient playstyle. It utilizes a lot of bairs, f tilts, and other movements to outmanuver and make the opponent commit unforced errors, which will lead into more subsequent damage from combos, throws, etc. This may not work if the opponent can get Sonic off balance with thier offence well, either by using overwhelming offense (MK) or an annoying projectile game (ROB) But against characters that need to get closer, sonic can use this style to his advantage and dictate the flow of the match and time. you will see many empty jumps, Foxtrorts, and other movements the use sonics dash to play outside of the opponents maximum range, forceing them to advance, or become very campy themselves, allowing the Sonic to slowly pick them apart.
Now what I propose is, based on this info (which can be altered; its not set in stone aka plz comment) is that we send in vids or we look at vids of Sonic players as a whole, and determine from them what thier primary types are, in a 1,2,3 format. meaning, you could be a " Ground/Grapple/Edge" type, which would mean you are very dependant on your ground game, and may need to balance it with your aerial game, or maybe a "Grapple/Punish/Combo" type, which would sorta mean that if you are really good at forcing you opponent into mistakes, and making them pay in almost any situation.
Discuss.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
tilts seem useful once in a while
Boxob
Smash Champion
Sonic players are not Pokemon, JayBee.
Lulz.
Lulz.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
the spring is good for recovery
JayBee
Smash Champion
Sonic players are not Pokemon, JayBee.
Lulz.
I'd expect you to say that, Boxob/Haunter.
But no, i wasn't trying to do all that. But that's How have broken him down over the time I have played him, and seen others play. In this way, I can make it easier to say what style I am, and you can understand it more, than me saying, "I play like this person, or that person but slightly more/less _____"
Btw I'm an Grappler/Air/Punish, (or GraAP) style Sonic.
now u try.
Boxob
Smash Champion
Um, I **** people with Sonic.
I'm a **** style. (****)
now u try.
I'm a **** style. (****)
now u try.
MarKO X
Smash Champion
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When I play Sonic, I fight like a hedgehog.
My style is not that of my own. I have taken what I have learned here and through various videos of the better Sonic mains and applied that knowledge. Sometimes I have flashes of brillance. Sometimes, I fall into the trap of predictability.
Call me average, but better than noob.
My style is not that of my own. I have taken what I have learned here and through various videos of the better Sonic mains and applied that knowledge. Sometimes I have flashes of brillance. Sometimes, I fall into the trap of predictability.
Call me average, but better than noob.
MyNameIsRyan
Smash Journeyman
I stick to my air game most of the time. The faster the character, the beter the air game (Sometimes..) That and standing near the edge and doing my L-throw.
thecatinthehat
Smash Master
You main Falcon. Now please kindly look at the title of this thread, and of this forum.
Now GTFO
Chis
Finally a legend
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
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ALL OF YOU!
thecatinthehat
Smash Master
Chis
Finally a legend
Don't make me say it again!
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
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Ahem.
I'm a grabby defensive Sonic.
Considering I focus less on approaching and aggression and such, I find match-ups like Wario more bearable than many of you who spindash at absolutely every oppurtunity.
I'm a grabby defensive Sonic.
Considering I focus less on approaching and aggression and such, I find match-ups like Wario more bearable than many of you who spindash at absolutely every oppurtunity.
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Mine was actually symbolizing the relation of new people to old time Sonic mains.
See? The manatee is a newbie, and the shark symbolizes the Sonics. Too bad the shark isn't eating a steak, but it does the job nonetheless.
EDIT@MyNameIsRyan: What is an L-Throw??
darkNES386
Smash Lord
First post updated, can someone please bring to the table a specific player that they would like the Sonic Community to help them beat? We can handle multiple players at once, and if you have video footage of matches that would be helpful too. Be sure to provide the following info:
Opponent Name, Opponent Character, description of problem when fighting them. Be as detailed as possible.
We should have no problem handling multiple players at once so don't hesitate to bring another player to the table. I'll do my best to play people and record matches (when wifi related) and I will be bringing some of my own opponents to the table for everyone to help me with.
Above all else, please do not turn this into a flame/junk topic and respect the problems that other Sonic players are having. Remember that everyone is not at the same playing level, and if someone wants to improve they have to be open to constructive criticism.
Opponent Name, Opponent Character, description of problem when fighting them. Be as detailed as possible.
We should have no problem handling multiple players at once so don't hesitate to bring another player to the table. I'll do my best to play people and record matches (when wifi related) and I will be bringing some of my own opponents to the table for everyone to help me with.
Above all else, please do not turn this into a flame/junk topic and respect the problems that other Sonic players are having. Remember that everyone is not at the same playing level, and if someone wants to improve they have to be open to constructive criticism.
JMan8891
Halfrican-American
I may have 1... A Tink.. we played 2 matches... he won... last stock both over 100%
I'll see kf he's game DNes
He spaces and traps well... very good up close and faster kill moves w/more power. But i think i'd win next time
I'll see kf he's game DNes
He spaces and traps well... very good up close and faster kill moves w/more power. But i think i'd win next time
Kingace, Metaknight, F/B-air camp; D-smash as punisher/setup for off-stage kill with shuttleloop.
;] okay?
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
we should use sonic's speed
Boxob
Smash Champion
thecatinthehat
Smash Master
For the camping, I'd say dash > shield grab. His aerials aren't that strong, you should still be close enough to grab after his attacks end. It's pretty easy to avoid his shuttle loop. Recover low and you wont have to worry about it.
darkNES386
Smash Lord
@Jman: Give us more information about what you're struggling with against this player you mentioned. Is he Tink from the midwest? The wario main?
I'm going to try and split responses to certain MK attacks in to good / bad ideas when I am more confident.
-Short hop fair/bair camping
This is a tough one, many MK's like to fair or bair, then use another jump to stay in the air to try and bait you to sprint in for a grab/attack. Depending on the specific situation and how your opponent is choosing to DI while using this a dash>shield cancel grab may be a good option. At some point MK does have to land. I'm currently having a similar issue with a Marth I play against who will approach with fair/nair attacks quite well and it's difficult to always shield grab. How does an upward-ftilt work against MK's fair when approaching?
-Shuttleloop for offstage KO
Sonic's amazing vertical recovery puts him at a much larger advantage when avoiding MK's shuttle loop. Avoid being predictable and keep in mind when the invincible frames of the spring occur and MK shouldn't be able to punish you as easily. Avoid predictable spin shots. Generally trying to gimp Sonic is very risky, but Sonic trying to gimp Mk can be even more unwise.
-Meta knight shuttle loops off stage either to recover or when hanging on edge and dropping down briefly.
High Risk:
-Any smash attack while standing in place.
-Attempting to stage spike with a well placed bair while running offstage.
Safer:
-Shield/dash-shield cancel and shield grab once MK attacks out of glide.
-Jump and fair, puffball really likes to do this when he fights meta knights that get predictable with this shuttleloop edge recovery.
-Once MK realizes he has to mix up his onstage recovery, Sonic can pretty much run away from any special recovery Mk uses and when spaced properly can even punish him before he regains control. Some MK's will tornado over your shield and eat it away, make sure you try to run away from these... those who tornado and try to run away from you are yours for the taking.
-When getting hit by the MK downsmash a lot
High Risk:
-Attempting to outsmash MK with a down/forward smash
-Rolling away, MK can chase quite easily
-Dash Attack (dash - A) , if MK is at really low percents he will be able to hit you before you even finish spinning
Safer:
-Short hop into a b-air. MK's hitbox for his down smash will be underneath you and your bair will connect
-If you know he's camping with his downsmash, run past him> he will probably spot-dodge... right into your fsmash (just let off on the joystick and c-stick backwards, towards MK)
Comments anyone?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2-Sc1S8ms4
I'm going to try and split responses to certain MK attacks in to good / bad ideas when I am more confident.
-Short hop fair/bair camping
This is a tough one, many MK's like to fair or bair, then use another jump to stay in the air to try and bait you to sprint in for a grab/attack. Depending on the specific situation and how your opponent is choosing to DI while using this a dash>shield cancel grab may be a good option. At some point MK does have to land. I'm currently having a similar issue with a Marth I play against who will approach with fair/nair attacks quite well and it's difficult to always shield grab. How does an upward-ftilt work against MK's fair when approaching?
-Shuttleloop for offstage KO
Sonic's amazing vertical recovery puts him at a much larger advantage when avoiding MK's shuttle loop. Avoid being predictable and keep in mind when the invincible frames of the spring occur and MK shouldn't be able to punish you as easily. Avoid predictable spin shots. Generally trying to gimp Sonic is very risky, but Sonic trying to gimp Mk can be even more unwise.
-Meta knight shuttle loops off stage either to recover or when hanging on edge and dropping down briefly.
High Risk:
-Any smash attack while standing in place.
-Attempting to stage spike with a well placed bair while running offstage.
Safer:
-Shield/dash-shield cancel and shield grab once MK attacks out of glide.
-Jump and fair, puffball really likes to do this when he fights meta knights that get predictable with this shuttleloop edge recovery.
-Once MK realizes he has to mix up his onstage recovery, Sonic can pretty much run away from any special recovery Mk uses and when spaced properly can even punish him before he regains control. Some MK's will tornado over your shield and eat it away, make sure you try to run away from these... those who tornado and try to run away from you are yours for the taking.
-When getting hit by the MK downsmash a lot
High Risk:
-Attempting to outsmash MK with a down/forward smash
-Rolling away, MK can chase quite easily
-Dash Attack (dash - A) , if MK is at really low percents he will be able to hit you before you even finish spinning
Safer:
-Short hop into a b-air. MK's hitbox for his down smash will be underneath you and your bair will connect
-If you know he's camping with his downsmash, run past him> he will probably spot-dodge... right into your fsmash (just let off on the joystick and c-stick backwards, towards MK)
Comments anyone?
Umby
Smash Master
The title makes much more sense now :o
Super_Sonic8677
Smash Lord
~Kawaii Bunny~
ICs
Spams ice shots for pressure,and uses the hammers and blizzard where a grab isn't safe. She'll wait for you to come to her. I've beaten her once...maybe....XD
I'd love to see what some better Sonics can do against her. Maybe it'll give me some ideas on what to do myself. Though I don't know if she'll play any of you....she hates the match up and Sonic in general.
ICs
Spams ice shots for pressure,and uses the hammers and blizzard where a grab isn't safe. She'll wait for you to come to her. I've beaten her once...maybe....XD
I'd love to see what some better Sonics can do against her. Maybe it'll give me some ideas on what to do myself. Though I don't know if she'll play any of you....she hates the match up and Sonic in general.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
against king ace, everytime he air camps, tilt camp him back, f-tilt has more range than his forward air, trying to shield grab it will only get you downsmashed.
kawaiibunny, as far as i know, overhead appoaches are good against ICs
get just withing range of HA and when she shoots Ice, do a quick HA, it should hit one or both of them while still in lag from neutral b. will also punish blizzard. do things that you cant get grabbed out of, down b a lot, it should go through the ice, but blizzard kinda ***** sonic. just do whatever you can to get them seperated, and just go to town on the cpu controlled climber. i think falling n-air from directly above will help in this match.
kawaiibunny, as far as i know, overhead appoaches are good against ICs
get just withing range of HA and when she shoots Ice, do a quick HA, it should hit one or both of them while still in lag from neutral b. will also punish blizzard. do things that you cant get grabbed out of, down b a lot, it should go through the ice, but blizzard kinda ***** sonic. just do whatever you can to get them seperated, and just go to town on the cpu controlled climber. i think falling n-air from directly above will help in this match.