Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[teluoborg]

If you aren't already you need to use an attack button to do the u-smash. The boost grab window (cancel the dash attack into grab) overlaps the boost smash window for 1 frame, so if you use grab to do it on that timing you'll get a grab and using attack you'll get the u-smash. The boost smash window for G&W, Marth, and Wolf is 1 frame which makes it only possible during that overlap. Some change one of the shoulder buttons to attack. I've always used all of the buttons since melee depending on the situation so I just move my finger down from Z and use A to do it.

Speaking of boost grab window, is it normal that GW can cancel the first hit of his dash attack into a grab on hit or is it a bug ?
Because it works on shield and it's hilarious.

 

[Magus420]

It hits on 3 in PM so yeah that's normal.

 

[Yung Mei]

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmgeft74CVBtMrG7aNcGI7QGZfG98Db68&feature=view_all

heres money matches and **** i had at GC

mostly gnw but a charizard match or 2 in there

 

[Metmetm3t]

Your movement was so fresh in some of those sets. But only when you were doing it. Every set started out with you confusing your opponent with the platform movement and then it slowly transitioned into a more reactive playstyle. I think it would have served you better to stay with the movement that was working so well for you.

You got caught a few times just spamming tech skill while your opponent respawned. Just letting them walk up to you and attack has got to be one my biggest pet peeves because it shows that you weren't even looking at them.

You favored hard punishes with high risk/reward. Think about attacking with fair or bacon when your opponent is at a disadvantage. A lot of times just keeping them contained and under pressure is better than going for the kill with an Up Smash read (but keep the up smash read in your arsenal of coarse).

 

[Oracle]

good ****, really like what I see. lots of nasty hard reads, which is something g&w does really well. Grab more I guess? didn't have any problems with how you were playing overall, but grabbing is a really good mixup from your approaches and you were pretty much just sh fairing

 

[Yung Mei]

yeah, i had never ever played a lucario/wolf/pit (good ones anyways)

so i took the magikarp approach and started flailing like an idiot until **** started working

then i started to level up, but no gyarados yet, still level 15 only knowing splash and tackle

 

[trash?]

How does the proper grinding tactic of "lose all splash pp --> hit struggle forever until things die" strategy fall into this metaphor

 

[Yung Mei]

you saw the usmashes that killed?

those weren't intentional, i just like to throw the move out randomly

speaking of which, i just learned how to DACG

and its not as hard or strict timing as ive been hearing, i got it down on the 3rd try :v

 

[Metmetm3t]

I made a little video to show off a kinda nonobvious usage for Chef Cancels

 

[Juushichi]

yeah, i had never ever played a lucario/wolf/pit (good ones anyways)

Lucky for you that all three of those characters are ones that you can play much of your game against. Pit's keepaway is kind of annoying though, less annoying than ZSS (metroid probably knows this), but still annoying.

---

For the GnW vid that m3t posted I hadn't realized until I talked to Ryker (the ZSS I alluded to above and one of my DRB group members) about it over the phone the other day, but Game and Watch gets a pretty okay frametrap coming off of the ledge by using this technology.

I'd hope that most of us have been working on trying to get off of the ledge properly, so I'm going to assume as much, but if you know (or better if you didn't) that uair is completely invulnerable coming off the ledge at the correct height, using the bacon-cancel should allow you the same amount of frame safety that you get from using pan: (let's consult Magus' frame table thing from 2.5 vs 2.1)

"Neutral-B
Landing Lag: 0 (no impact landing. cancels directly into wait)
Shield Stun: 6 Pan, 7 Panless (4 Hitlag + 3 Stun)
Advantage: +6 Pan, +7 Panless"

Assuming that I'm correct here (and I seem to recall being able to replicate this), we basically have a +6/+7 initially invulnerable aerial coming off of the ledge. Mixing this up with other standard or even creative ledge options could mean some pretty decent safety getting out of what is a disadvantaged situation.

In neutral it's not all that smart, but if you can do the same thing and intentionally whiff an uair in front of them, to force them to hit buttons, you get an easily advantageous situation in that sense as well.

Some of this may seem very obvious, but I thought it was interesting to note anyway.

 

[Metmetm3t]

U-Air is more than capable of baiting out a bad punish for many reasons. The move doesn't look safe; it is significantly faster than it ever was playing on your opponents unfamiliarity; it mixes up with G&W's other aerials which are just the opposite; not fast falling mixes up with the optimal approach that your opponent will be looking for.

On top of that the approach is very ambiguous because G&W can WD back if he wants or Chef Cancel which can then lead to an instant shield or side step or Up-B or Jab or dtilt. I think SH>UAir is easily the best way to prey on an opponent who goes into wait an punish mode.

It's flaws, though, are that it unsafe to opponents who are looking to attack or dodge or shoot projectiles. In that way it can be nullified in most situations. But, as a tool, it seems to fit into it's place pretty well for me.

 

[geno]

On top of that the approach is very ambiguous because G&W can WD back if he wants or Chef Cancel which can then lead to an instant shield or side step or Up-B or Jab or dtilt. I think SH>UAir is easily the best way to prey on an opponent who goes into wait an punish mode.

I'm definitely going to have to start using that now. I've been neglecting G&W's U-air almost completely just because I couldn't figure out a good place to use it.

Also, how are you guys able to effectively use your bacon? The pan is the best thing since sliced bread, but even with bacon canceling and all the tricks, my bacon always seems to go out of its way to miss my opponent. Pretty sure it even goes behind me sometimes

 

[Metmetm3t]

UAir's best use is still as part of G&W's combo game. If you arn't adding it in to strings you arn't optimizing your combos.

 

[Artimus]

First post, here it goes.
Played against Dakpo in a few friendly dittos and realized my play style was very vanilla and not unorthodox like a good GW should be. Using all of his weird, laggy hitboxes to their full potential. I played way to obvious in most cases, and I had no idea about how bad GW's teching was. Never again.

Linking U-airs together seems to work well, using it like a pseudo-Falcon U-air strategy. Awesome around platforms (BF, YS etc).
Grab>U-throw>U-tilt/U-air>U-air>Up-b on flat stages. Can be used much more around platforms, have gotten as many as 5 in a single string, before Up-b or follow up. I also really like SHDB>SHU-air chases now. Fast fallers get stuck in them like crazy. SHU-air over, and over, and over.

Up-B>Up-Air>Baconbaconbaconbacon.

It's solid, and U-air seems to have a very tiny DI window in my experience and can lead to just about any follow up with low risk, most of the time. That, and the relative 0 knock-back is nice for comboing. I'll have some videos maybe by this weekend and would love critique, though I really only have one other person to practice with who mains Sonic.

Now my question is, how bad is GW's shield game? It seems like I get poked out of it ALL the time when it's full/near full shield. This could just be player mistakes and johns on my part, but I feel like something is missing when I predict an attack, shield, and then just get hit out of it anyway. GW is such a janky character I wouldn't doubt it having something to do with his hurtbox poking out in some way, but I haven't found any solid answers. His tech-roll/tech-in place is obviously more terrible than I had ever thought, but after thinking about it, yeah, it's awful.

 

[Dakpo]

You have to Bacon more... you rarely used it

 

[Metmetm3t]

G&W's shield is pretty average. It would be amazing, but he does stick his arms and legs out to the worst possible positions for his shield animation, so it evens out.

If you are getting shield poked frequently it probably because you are just shielding in situations where it would have been bad for many characters, not just G&W.

The best things to do if you think your opponent is going to go for a shield poke is to either tilt your shield or run away with Up-B, a wavedash or just a straight dash.

 

[trash?]

I really can't wait to see people use chef cancel in practice. On paper, it sounds nuts, seeing that you can Uair whenever, not only with no risk, but with less risk than if you were to just empty-jump. I want to see a top-tier GnW in my lifetime, damnit.

 

[Artimus]

You have to Bacon more... you rarely used it

Been practicing like mad recently after that last tournament. I'm sick of getting bodied by unfamiliar MU's, and the fact I did decent against you and Awestin in friendlies gives me hope for the near future, even though it was just friendlies. It just really bites only having one person to practice against, since we know how each plays so well it's just a stalemate for half the game no matter what character we use. I have to constantly change characters to even enjoy it anymore, since there's no real challenge, it's all Dash camping and throwing out wonky moves for giggles. We just play the MU 95% of the time. Maybe if I hold some Smash Fests people will make the trip out here.

Thanks for the tips though, I was aware of the bacon shortage and that has changed. I also figured GW had some weird shield animation, but I tried doing more spot dodges tonight and it seems to work much better than just shield-tilting most of the time. Even got DACUS down, so it was a nice little session for me.

Offensively I know I'm decent, I understand the combo's and reading DI for follow ups, I just really need tips on how to play defensively with him. Shielding is a no-go for the most part, his techs are awful and get me punished 70% of the time and spot-dodge is more effective than anything. D-tilt and F-tilt seem to space really well, and the fact you can interrupt F-tilt is nice. SHDB is good for spacing as well, though it seems I get punished for that too. I suppose that's just learning when and when not to bacon. I'm trying to understand how to play defensively with such a light, punishable character when the pressure is on however. Once I get traction I do really really well, but other than that my defense game is garbage, lol. Also, is GW's hit stun recovery slightly slower as well? Feel likes he hovers in stun at low percents for longer than other characters. Maybe it's just me again, but I feel like I get a nice little chain going and get hit out of it, then I can do nothing to stop it. Like, CC D-tilt only seems to work after I've been pummeled 5-6 times and had 20% racked up. Though I do the same with GW's jab and get smacked out of it second hit with just a jab and then I'm stuck. The shielding gets to me especially, watching the opponent shield a move and punish, though when I shield I immediately get knocked out of it. I really need a few matches to upload so I can have some actual critique, other than trying to guess how I play through text. I really like GW, but I'm having issues figuring all of his janky frames and hurtboxes out, so I know what to expect.

 

[Yung Mei]

idk about the chef cancel thing honestly, i tried using it in gameplay against a computer, didnt seem very effective, especially since you have to jump to do it

imo, the best situations to use it would be if dropping down from a platform, or running off a platform. ill try using it against people tomorrow.

 

[Juushichi]

I'm not really at the point where I am using chef cancel properly myself, actually. It best serves me coming off the ledge and in some spots after a high fair, but overall it's still a new implementation into my game. More than anything, I'm trying to refine my neutral footsies game right now. Game and Watch gets pretty solid rewards off of a hit, so it's really not comboing that I think I need to work on. Luckily in being 2-D (lol), there aren't a whole lot of wrinkles to explore in terms of his moveset... so I treat a shielding GnW like I tried to treat a shielding Marth in Melee --- try not to put yourself in that position too much.

Playing CvS2 and SF4 have helped me in that aspect recently.

 

[Oracle]

why exactly are you cancelling the upair with chef? it already autocancels, and i'd rather just waveland away honestly

 

[Yung Mei]

upair autocancels? what the ****


so if im understanding it, there really isnt a reason to l cancel it or what

 

[dettadeus]

autocancel in that its ending lag is over before the end of a short hop

 

[Juushichi]

why exactly are you cancelling the upair with chef? it already autocancels, and i'd rather just waveland away honestly

see: This.

 

[Oracle]

iirc hitbox doesn't come out after an uair, which makes the frame data irrelevant

 

[Metmetm3t]

Hitbox does come out, it's a tough input though: down>y>up>a>right>b, without accidentally inputting fair or Side-B, in something like 20 frames.

I would say that it is a viable option, but G&W has a lot of good ledge options so it's hard to say if it wouldn't have been better to just forward air or Up-B off the ledge in that situation.

 

[leelue]

"KB stacking mechanics are officially my least favorite thing in the ****ing game.
6 times in 7 matches was a kill stolen from me by my own bacon when using game and watch. Once during my own ****ing pan spike. Another on a 9. Thanks a lot, falco."
- Me, from the general discussion thread.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Yea, I've ******* about that since 2.5 came out. It's infuriating when the move you used to contain your opponent and force them into getting FSmashed saves their life as a result.

Unfortunately I'm not sure if they could even program a good way to fix it. (:_: )

 

[leelue]

idk if there's a kb threshold that could be implemented? Or only apply it to vertical knockback?
OR just ****ing shoot all the ****ing falco players for ****ing up a bunch of characters

 

[Juushichi]

yeah, **** falco

 

[Magus420]

Could also pay more attention and not hit them towards your food using high endlag moves, and anticipate following up off of the food instead of being caught by surprise when it happens. That's the way I feel anyway when I save someone and am unable to capitalize on it. For every projectile that you are able to hit them into it in a way to have it backfire, you are also able to hit them into it in ways you can benefit from. In chef's case you have the time it takes them to reach the food from where you hit them (up to 8 added) + 4 hitlag from the food + the hitstun of the food (10/15/19/24 stun at 0/50/100/150 damage) to work with. F-air has 12 landing lag, n-air 8, f-smash has 27 endlag, u-smash 14 (13 in front), d-smash 18, and d-tilt 19. If you're not able to combo directly you're usually at enough advantage to outspeed or outrange their options.

KB stack/reset working the way it does benefits a lot more than just the Falco's d-air/shine/u-tilt example. Besides up/down combos like that (opposing Y stacking), attacks that send towards you like Marth's u-tilt, Zelda's f-tilt, and Ganon's d-smash combo better (opposing X stacking), and multihit attacks, especially moving ones like Lucario's u-smash, are able to link much better (within 10 frame hits KB reset).

 

[Artimus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI6_VT1xHVM

 

[Metmetm3t]

Your frame data is great and all, but in practice there is no advantage for G&W. He is forced to back off and try to find some positional advantage.

KB stacking is great in most situations, but you're just grabbing straws trying to rationalize this one.

 

[Nahpro]

I think it's fine the way it is, personally. It does suck when a hit that would normally kill is stopped dead by a bacon but I usually think of it as then punishment for blind or excessive bacon spam. The kb stopping properties are pretty cool before normal kill ranges because you can follow up with an easy fair or nair. Even in the situation where bacon stops the opponents momentum immediately, you should be able to predict this outcome more than your opponent and be able to follow up on a mistake. The situation that where this effects me the most is bacon spam ->dtilt->stray bacon-> follow up fair.

Anyway, I think this is a perfectly suitable downside for a move that is as spamable and versatile as chef. I'd rather it keep the cool kb-killing properties it has right now over some tweak to resolve this small issue.
Just my two cents.

 

[Metmetm3t]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI6_VT1xHVM

Good matches, I think the thing that would benefit you most is just watching the match and paying close attention to how the sonic was approaching and comboing you, because it seemed like he did all of his damage from illegitimate stuff.

And just a clarification on the Chef thing, I don't think the move should be changed. It just sucks when that happens; FSmash reads deserve to kill somebody.

 

[Artimus]

Good matches, I think the thing that would benefit you most is just watching the match and paying close attention to how the sonic was approaching and comboing you, because it seemed like he did all of his damage from illegitimate stuff.

And just a clarification on the Chef thing, I don't think the move should be changed. It just sucks when that happens; FSmash reads deserve to kill somebody.

Can you clarify on illegitimate for me?

I still am not sure on how to deal with Sonic's crazy pressure, even though I've played the MU about a million times. Lol

 

[Magus420]

If the food is landing on them at the same time your attack connects (food would have hit them anyway) yeah that can leave it around neutral because it cancels your attack's hitlag on them while you're still in it, but if you're knocking them into the food (they would have avoided it) or it lands on them at the end of hitlag on most attacks (as in not his laggiest moves like f-smash and judge) you can usually f-air them, go for a DJ read with n-air, or grab/f-smash/u-tilt/d-tilt for close range depending on where they hit the food and their damage. Believe what you want though.

 

[geno]

I actually don't mind the kb stacking with G&W's bacon that much. It feels really good to get your opponent overwhelmed in a flurry of bacon, smashes and hammers. If it looks like it's going to happen I just get a Dtilt ready. Seems most reliable for me

 

[Yung Mei]

im absolutely certain that gnw ***** ganon

ive played various ganons (one of them is bad, so im excluding him, all he does is ftilt thinking that its gonna make him win, spoiler alert, it doesnt)

and 2 at GC last i went, and ive 4stocked them both once or twice

i played another guy at the sakuracon tourney, and i four stocked him too, but then he managed to 4 stock my falcon in return

dtilt->uair->upB->dair to platform for 2 hits = beautiful

 

[Juushichi]

I don't think that GnW ***** Ganon per se, but I could see Game and Watch winning the MU. We can crouch most of his moves and that's very significant, but Ganondorfs movement and range is still something we have to watch out for. Both characters edgeguard the other pretty well.

Maybe 55-45 Game and Watch? I don't think it's super advantageous.