-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread
- Thread starter Juushichi
- Start date
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
huehuehuehuehue
delicious developments guys
from all 10 of us.
i had another FT5 set with carls wario, i lost 2-5. had a cool combo tho. I need to not be so free to shoulder charge, but i figured out some stuff. videos hopefully up soon.
delicious developments guys
from all 10 of us.
i had another FT5 set with carls wario, i lost 2-5. had a cool combo tho. I need to not be so free to shoulder charge, but i figured out some stuff. videos hopefully up soon.
Magus420
Smash Master
I guess I'd have to see it for myself, but I haven't had difficulty with turnips between crouch, crouch powershield, and b-air which is also great against her in general. Her turnip throws go over a crouch if you're between about a roll's distance away and right next to her, also making crouch powershield really easy within that range as well as further out when it's at least partially going over you. They reflect at a crappy angle towards the floor but her smash ground throw can make it back to her from a decent distance.
Oracle
Smash Master
You know youre boned when the only advice is "just powershield everything"
Magus420
Smash Master
That's not at all what I said, lol. The turnips aren't even able to hit you at that range while crouching and threatening b-air, so the powershield is just there for free if you want it while it's passing over you.
leelue
Smash Lord
I do think that the bucket should be absorbing more things, honestly. Keep it to energy, sure, but I don't understand why things like Charizard's side B (or even mario's forward smash) don't count.
Talk about hype right there
Also I agree with magus concerning Bair and Peach. Feels good man.
Oracle
Smash Master
Idk if theyre camping right then its pretty hard to get in that range but whatever. He still needs better tools to deal with camping in general since basically everyone can dd camp him and make his life hard. The fact that he has trouble with bad chars like link just bc he cant deal with a dumb strategy is sad and honestly really weird
Yung Mei
Where all da hot anime moms at
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2009
- Messages
- 5,341
Oracle
Smash Master
link is only easy if they don't camp hard, which is the weird thing. If those characters stop camping even a little bit they get absolutely trashed but when they camp its next to impossible. most link players (or pm players, for that matter) don't like hard camping so it isn't always relevant
leelue
Smash Lord
I was telling my friend this last night. "Dude stop running into my chair and throw **** instead."
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Both Links are hard for basically the same reason but it's highlighted differently in the inherent strengths they have as a character.
TL is fast and now hits hard enough that GnW gets sad, even though he (Watch) struggles to get in and then dies for free off a grab.
Link is not so fast, but hits hard and has superior range that makes GnW sad, even though he (still Watch) still struggles to get in and then dies for free off a grab.
I was telling a friend this, but whether you find one of these to be harder in comparison to the other is going to almost literally be because of personal style. If you can deal with faster characters better with wider zones, then Link is probably going to be harder. If you can deal with breaking through dedicated camping zones and range, then Toon Link is probably going to be harder in that sense.
To be fair, a lot of mediocre to bad characters (see: many mid tier characters and worse) struggle to deal with dash dance camping and zoning. However, Melee (and by an extension, this game) is all about breaking through zones (even DD camping and especially projectile and range camping) just like any other game and if that is the worst that Game and Watch has to deal with given his current tools, then I think we're not off so bad.
That being said, having some better tools to deal with this thing on a wish-list later (hint: we should be thinking these up as the actual current playtesters for the game that hasn't gone "gold" yet) would be nice.
EDIT: As for GnW and Peach... hm, I haven't been able to play since RAIN2 with Hanky but I remember naturally coming to the conclusion that Magus did. I played mostly on platforms, with my back to Peach or crouching when I played vs her and favored larger stages. There was the issue (and this is always an issue with GnW) that I was being baited too far out of my personal control bubble (weak hit of fair) and punished for that, but that's just the growing pains of learning to "space better".
Peach under a platform seemed to be of no more additional hindrance to this as usual, though I mean that takes away some of our more potent anti-CC tools like nair and dair (unless we want to trade), so idk, it seems like we should strive to uproot Peach more with threatening movement like Marth while maybe trying to pepper in a little Chef here and there? But jumping erroneously close to Peach spells doom for many characters. The key is obviously that we want to scare her into removing that positional advantage more than we should be actually trying to hit her there if she gets there. And otherwise personally controlling this space and making sure she gets punished when we get there.
At least, this is how I am seeing it.
I know this sounds vague, but the mindset we should take approaching this MU seems eerily similar to Marth vs Peach. Maybe because they have similar gameplans?
TL is fast and now hits hard enough that GnW gets sad, even though he (Watch) struggles to get in and then dies for free off a grab.
Link is not so fast, but hits hard and has superior range that makes GnW sad, even though he (still Watch) still struggles to get in and then dies for free off a grab.
I was telling a friend this, but whether you find one of these to be harder in comparison to the other is going to almost literally be because of personal style. If you can deal with faster characters better with wider zones, then Link is probably going to be harder. If you can deal with breaking through dedicated camping zones and range, then Toon Link is probably going to be harder in that sense.
To be fair, a lot of mediocre to bad characters (see: many mid tier characters and worse) struggle to deal with dash dance camping and zoning. However, Melee (and by an extension, this game) is all about breaking through zones (even DD camping and especially projectile and range camping) just like any other game and if that is the worst that Game and Watch has to deal with given his current tools, then I think we're not off so bad.
That being said, having some better tools to deal with this thing on a wish-list later (hint: we should be thinking these up as the actual current playtesters for the game that hasn't gone "gold" yet) would be nice.
EDIT: As for GnW and Peach... hm, I haven't been able to play since RAIN2 with Hanky but I remember naturally coming to the conclusion that Magus did. I played mostly on platforms, with my back to Peach or crouching when I played vs her and favored larger stages. There was the issue (and this is always an issue with GnW) that I was being baited too far out of my personal control bubble (weak hit of fair) and punished for that, but that's just the growing pains of learning to "space better".
Peach under a platform seemed to be of no more additional hindrance to this as usual, though I mean that takes away some of our more potent anti-CC tools like nair and dair (unless we want to trade), so idk, it seems like we should strive to uproot Peach more with threatening movement like Marth while maybe trying to pepper in a little Chef here and there? But jumping erroneously close to Peach spells doom for many characters. The key is obviously that we want to scare her into removing that positional advantage more than we should be actually trying to hit her there if she gets there. And otherwise personally controlling this space and making sure she gets punished when we get there.
At least, this is how I am seeing it.
I know this sounds vague, but the mindset we should take approaching this MU seems eerily similar to Marth vs Peach. Maybe because they have similar gameplans?
Oracle
Smash Master
in theory magus approach is good but it doesn't really work in practice. getting into the range where a soft turnip throw will go over game and watch is basically impossible. Once you're there, then its pretty easy, but if they just throw turnips constantly its pretty hard (plus, thats in range of peach's dash attack). Keep in mind in this match i powershielded probably 40% of the turnips and still couldn't do anything about it because there were just too many turnips.
Also keep in mind that when I say that I was 'hard camped', my opponent literally did nothing but stand under a platform and throw turnips, even when he could have approached or taken more advantage or edgeguarded or w/e. Maybe it was just because he pulled five stitchfaces, a bomb, and a beam sword in one match, but it sincerely felt like it was not feasible for me to get in safely without taking a dumb risk.
Also keep in mind that when I say that I was 'hard camped', my opponent literally did nothing but stand under a platform and throw turnips, even when he could have approached or taken more advantage or edgeguarded or w/e. Maybe it was just because he pulled five stitchfaces, a bomb, and a beam sword in one match, but it sincerely felt like it was not feasible for me to get in safely without taking a dumb risk.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
I could go into theory vs practice stuff, but that seems to be pointless atm so I think I'll go with a more productive approach:
You said that you felt GnW had to take a dumb risk to get in and break her out of this pattern. What kind of "dumb risks" do you think you needed to take to do this?
Assuming the RNG deity did not smile upon this particular Peach player.
You said that you felt GnW had to take a dumb risk to get in and break her out of this pattern. What kind of "dumb risks" do you think you needed to take to do this?
Assuming the RNG deity did not smile upon this particular Peach player.
Oracle
Smash Master
basically when peach is in range there's only a small window between clanking with/powershielding the turnip where you're able to approach peach, since if you do nothing you just get smacked with another turnip or dash attacked. This forces you too either attack or run in this very small window. the attack is usually easily punished and/or doesn't lead to anything because peach, and if you run to avoid turnips you're just playing her game, so you've already lost. Once you're in range to attack, peach can buffer a shield to beat sh aerials and cover grab options with the turnip throw oos. There is no safe option in this situation; you have to make a pretty hard read just to get a single hit (and usually not much else besides some positional advantage).
The strange thing about this is that if peach does anything else vs. gw, she'll get bodied. seems like overly defensive play is one of the only things most chars can do to stop game and watch, imo.
The strange thing about this is that if peach does anything else vs. gw, she'll get bodied. seems like overly defensive play is one of the only things most chars can do to stop game and watch, imo.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
I agree. I have run into a lot of this sort of parallel except in the Wario MU. When he decides to erroneously air to air with me or swings first, it's easy to get the hit and positional advantage, but because of GnW's dedicated nature when he does commit to a significant attack and Wario's great poking and ridiculous air mobility, it is adversely really easy to get ****ed up when we are wrong. I think in different weights, this applies to many characters in the game.
But for Peach, threatening and capitalizing on positional advantage repeatedly seems to be the main way we get mileage out of the match up. It makes me smile to reiterate this, because this is exactly what Marth must do to beat Peach (and Samus) and coming from a Melee Marth background, it's kinda refreshing. The real question now is "how?" We've got to think about how we as Game and Watch players can stop her from getting into that zone. Getting a grab and throw is the obvious solution of uprooting her and putting her in situations where we can gain that positional control*, but what do you think we as players should look at in the neutral game to preempt Peach here?
*It should already be established that with nair, fair and landing traps that once we uproot a character, we can force them to take heavy damage trying to get back to neutral or recover to even a disadvantaged position. That's the "glass cannon" design that Watch was supposed to have in mind. We don't get it through comboing vs floaties like we do on FFers or even midweights, obviously.
But for Peach, threatening and capitalizing on positional advantage repeatedly seems to be the main way we get mileage out of the match up. It makes me smile to reiterate this, because this is exactly what Marth must do to beat Peach (and Samus) and coming from a Melee Marth background, it's kinda refreshing. The real question now is "how?" We've got to think about how we as Game and Watch players can stop her from getting into that zone. Getting a grab and throw is the obvious solution of uprooting her and putting her in situations where we can gain that positional control*, but what do you think we as players should look at in the neutral game to preempt Peach here?
*It should already be established that with nair, fair and landing traps that once we uproot a character, we can force them to take heavy damage trying to get back to neutral or recover to even a disadvantaged position. That's the "glass cannon" design that Watch was supposed to have in mind. We don't get it through comboing vs floaties like we do on FFers or even midweights, obviously.
Yung Mei
Where all da hot anime moms at
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2009
- Messages
- 5,341
so i tried getting dash attack->dacus in a real match
ive come to the conclusion that its not recommended at all to do, unless you get one hell of A READ
(fixed lmao)
HOWEVER, one situation where it absolutely destroys in is if the opponent is shielding close to the ledge - do dsah attack->dacus, and their shield will either wither down so that its barely there, OR it will break
one other thing i liked using it for is as a "get away" move - if you feel like you'd be better trying to get away from the opponent, dash attack->dacus pushes you pretty far from the opponent even if you hit theyre shield, i feel like the combo ends quick enough so that they wont be able to punish you very well
ive come to the conclusion that its not recommended at all to do, unless you get one hell of A READ
(fixed lmao)
HOWEVER, one situation where it absolutely destroys in is if the opponent is shielding close to the ledge - do dsah attack->dacus, and their shield will either wither down so that its barely there, OR it will break
one other thing i liked using it for is as a "get away" move - if you feel like you'd be better trying to get away from the opponent, dash attack->dacus pushes you pretty far from the opponent even if you hit theyre shield, i feel like the combo ends quick enough so that they wont be able to punish you very well
leelue
Smash Lord
I usually use dash attack-grab for the last one. But the middle one is hype...
Yung Mei
Where all da hot anime moms at
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2009
- Messages
- 5,341
what the ****, i thought i hit edit
anyways, added some more ****, read this response not the last post
Hmmm... I very rarely ever bother with Up-Smash, he just has a lot of good options I consider 'better' usually. I've never even attempted a DACUS with him, I'm actually not even sure that I've ever tried to land an Up-Smash at all. It's like non-existent to me. o.O
Maybe I'm missing something, I'll check it out next time I play, but it just seems unreliable and not nearly as fun as other options. Kind of unnecessary, in a way.
Bair is a good way of dealing with Peach, in terms of things like spacing, popping her up, and playing the platform mobility game. Platforms help for sure, kind of the way you would play a Mario against her. At the same time, things like Utilt/Ftilt/Bair make great offensive tools, being safe and reliable if applied well.
G&W dittos are the most grab-less matches ever.
That is all!
Maybe I'm missing something, I'll check it out next time I play, but it just seems unreliable and not nearly as fun as other options. Kind of unnecessary, in a way.
Bair is a good way of dealing with Peach, in terms of things like spacing, popping her up, and playing the platform mobility game. Platforms help for sure, kind of the way you would play a Mario against her. At the same time, things like Utilt/Ftilt/Bair make great offensive tools, being safe and reliable if applied well.
G&W dittos are the most grab-less matches ever.
That is all!
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
You and I play drastically different Game and Watches my friend.
I grab opposing Game and Watches a fair amount, use a moderate amount of up-smashes. Utilt is a decent anticipatory anti-air and a solid combo linker. Bair is great for the utility it has and ftilt is a pretty good multi-purpose move though.
I grab opposing Game and Watches a fair amount, use a moderate amount of up-smashes. Utilt is a decent anticipatory anti-air and a solid combo linker. Bair is great for the utility it has and ftilt is a pretty good multi-purpose move though.
I have no idea how you can land grabs on him. For the most part, our dittos here have stuffed grabs with Dtilt far too many times to be worth while.
Mid-combo, sure, but DD's or tech chases or anything like that, it's just too difficult/risky. As well, I usually just throw them sideways in some 'tilt' style trajectory anyway.
What's the Turtles (Bair) name? We call him Stewy around here.
Mid-combo, sure, but DD's or tech chases or anything like that, it's just too difficult/risky. As well, I usually just throw them sideways in some 'tilt' style trajectory anyway.
What's the Turtles (Bair) name? We call him Stewy around here.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
I just call him the homie.
Haha, yeah... I've been told my GnW is hella weird. I'm still in the process of solidifying a lot of my stuff, but we'll see. I usually end up grabbing tech for other players. I love that all 10 (haha, that joke has been around since 1.0) of us play differently, it allows for a lot of reflection since a ton of avenues are being addressed at the same time.
By the way, this is part of a FT5 that I had with Carls' Wario two weeks ago. Apparently it's only listed as a Bo5 on the site, so that result was probably 3-1, but the FT5 was 5-2 in Carls' favor.
Haha, yeah... I've been told my GnW is hella weird. I'm still in the process of solidifying a lot of my stuff, but we'll see. I usually end up grabbing tech for other players. I love that all 10 (haha, that joke has been around since 1.0) of us play differently, it allows for a lot of reflection since a ton of avenues are being addressed at the same time.
By the way, this is part of a FT5 that I had with Carls' Wario two weeks ago. Apparently it's only listed as a Bo5 on the site, so that result was probably 3-1, but the FT5 was 5-2 in Carls' favor.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
How? Or are you asking me when I try to Dacus?
Every time you used the turtle I was like 'yeah' but yeah, way too much Fair and DThrow for my tastes. I like your style though, the grounded play at least has some flavor similarities to me. I think you could use challenging Wario in the air with Up-B's and Nair/Uair more often. That player has a tendency to DJ way above you, weave to the side and try Bair or Nair on you. If you catch him with a few aggressive Up-B's, half of his game is nullified. Pivot or WD back Ftilt would catch him a lot too. You got him a few times, but didn't seem to actually try attempting it much.
If you play him again sometime soon, try that, as Wario shouldn't be able to do a lot of the things he was doing to you.
Just some thoughts.
You caught him a few times with Uairs and things, but could definitely have used your ground-work to get in Up-B/Uair aggressive positions a lot more, forcing him to either adapt and stop, or try challenging you for it, which opens up more advantageous options for you.
Good job staying grounded, everyone could use more of that, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the 'weirdness' they talk about.
If you play him again sometime soon, try that, as Wario shouldn't be able to do a lot of the things he was doing to you.
Just some thoughts.
You caught him a few times with Uairs and things, but could definitely have used your ground-work to get in Up-B/Uair aggressive positions a lot more, forcing him to either adapt and stop, or try challenging you for it, which opens up more advantageous options for you.
Good job staying grounded, everyone could use more of that, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the 'weirdness' they talk about.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
I guess I could explain that, haha. I always try to use fair to at the very least control the space in front of Wario so he has to guess which avenue he tries to come in on. Not sure why I didn't really vary my throws too much on him this set (he's a local that I play bi-weekly to weekly), but I'm sure I probably thought I could get more control on him so I went with that. Throw game is something I'm really trying to experiement with more vs him because outside of catching him with poor DI on the throw, it doesn't seem like you get much with Wario and this was mirrored all the way back when I played with Reflex at APEX.
Pivots are some things that I do need to work on, but WD ftilt was something that I had always implemented early, but in doing so, Carls really picked on me because while ftilt stays out forever, it also means that you're stuck there forever and a character with the air mobility of Wario really preys upon that. His dtilt is absolutely a problem for WD -> things and sometimes it stuffs Up-B OOS. It is safe on sheild and coupling that with a jab mixup (which jab2 will put you in hard knockdown), means bad things for the GnW player.
You couple that with how absolutely vulnerable GnW is where he is trying to land against a character that not only pokes you out of the air but also has solid hits (fair, kinda nair vs every other aerial) as well as some of the best air mobility in the game and it's a real chore. This is referring to the up-B thing. My ground movement in this MU absolutely facilitates what I do in the air because:
1.) Challenging Wario excessively is a losing game, be that through his air mobility, his OOS options or through his weight which allows for favorable CCs.
2.) GnW is very free to Wario when he's stuck in his sheild.
3.) On average, your hits are weaker than his and your kill options take a while to come out.
4.) You are the safest when you are moving because in general your long dash and WD is faster than his air options short of a shoulder charge read (which I die to a lot, but that's my problem more than Wario vs Watch).
I'll explore pulling back WD back ftilt and pivot ftilt a lot more into my game vs Wario and I'm sure there is even more I can look at once I review some more.
A question that I will pose to the Game and Watches: What are more ways that I should be attempting to come back onstage from the ledge? This has been probably the largest fault (outside of poor spacing) that I think I have at the moment. Especially in the Wario MU, because I feel like he juut traps me at the ledge and then I'm eating a lot of damage. The neutral feels mostly in my favor and getting to the ledge isn't all that bad, but getting off is really hard. Even if it may not look like it from the vids.
Thank you for your feedback guys, if you can give more, it's really appreciated.
Pivots are some things that I do need to work on, but WD ftilt was something that I had always implemented early, but in doing so, Carls really picked on me because while ftilt stays out forever, it also means that you're stuck there forever and a character with the air mobility of Wario really preys upon that. His dtilt is absolutely a problem for WD -> things and sometimes it stuffs Up-B OOS. It is safe on sheild and coupling that with a jab mixup (which jab2 will put you in hard knockdown), means bad things for the GnW player.
You couple that with how absolutely vulnerable GnW is where he is trying to land against a character that not only pokes you out of the air but also has solid hits (fair, kinda nair vs every other aerial) as well as some of the best air mobility in the game and it's a real chore. This is referring to the up-B thing. My ground movement in this MU absolutely facilitates what I do in the air because:
1.) Challenging Wario excessively is a losing game, be that through his air mobility, his OOS options or through his weight which allows for favorable CCs.
2.) GnW is very free to Wario when he's stuck in his sheild.
3.) On average, your hits are weaker than his and your kill options take a while to come out.
4.) You are the safest when you are moving because in general your long dash and WD is faster than his air options short of a shoulder charge read (which I die to a lot, but that's my problem more than Wario vs Watch).
I'll explore pulling back WD back ftilt and pivot ftilt a lot more into my game vs Wario and I'm sure there is even more I can look at once I review some more.
A question that I will pose to the Game and Watches: What are more ways that I should be attempting to come back onstage from the ledge? This has been probably the largest fault (outside of poor spacing) that I think I have at the moment. Especially in the Wario MU, because I feel like he juut traps me at the ledge and then I'm eating a lot of damage. The neutral feels mostly in my favor and getting to the ledge isn't all that bad, but getting off is really hard. Even if it may not look like it from the vids.
Thank you for your feedback guys, if you can give more, it's really appreciated.
dettadeus
Smash Lord
Juu might beat me more overall in the ditto but I get sexier combos.
And 9 hammers.
And 9 hammers.
Calvo... for real? o.O
Against Wario, I'd still consider getting him in the air/towards an edge as limiting him more than grounding him and hoping to get a read. It has its moments, but more as an 'extra' rather than a staple option. It always probably doesn't feel NEARLY as rewarding, considering you might just be tossing them into the air somewhere, but in the end, it's more beneficial overall.
He played the match-up decently well based on the way you played, but he left a lot of room for you to abuse him by doing that. Those videos definitely present a player vs player style showcase, rather than character vs character, as you both had distinct 'ideas' or ways of going about it.
It was all good, but those things (WD > Up-B/Ftilt or whatever when he's DJ FF Bair/Side-B > DJing, etc) are those offensive tools you could apply to catch him early in his aerial movements (to establish you 'can' do that, which would result in him adapting to using aerials earlier to try anticipating you [meaning leaving openings for you]) or catching him later (given his fairly consistent spacing off of Dash > Turn around > DJ Bairs, which, even with Wario's mobility, still doesn't match G&W ground speed + range)
Those are just ideas to try implementing. I'm not implying an overhaul of style/priorities against him/Wario, but these are just some of the things that could easily have turned the tides in those matches fairly clearly. Or, at the very least, forwarded the meta-game between the 2 of you in a way that he would have to learn/adapt to it, and start a chain of development that way.
You probably understood that though, just making sure it's clear.
Wario and G&W have sexy Dtilts.
It shouldn't be too difficult to insure that you'll connect with Up-B, the move is FAST. As well, landing if you have your DJ or the range of your aerials (Bacon upon landing even, like the way Samus can land and shoot an uncharged Blast to mess up someone thinking they can punish a no missile/no aerial/no waveland landing from her. Though this might not be common/popular/applied by many, I don't know if it is, but hopefully that makes sense. It's basically like a Bowser flame-cancel but not a fancy name for it and with other B moves.)
Waveland from the ledge. It's the best.
Probably kind of obvious and doesn't need to be said, but that's all I can share unless more specifics on what 'makes' it difficult are given.
That 'not getting much out of throws' thing is very reasonable, but I personally still love gaining-ground rather than simply getting a potential chance to 'hit' an opponent again. It's the same reason I mostly avoid Zard Dthrows and stuff too, I just find 'guaranteed room' to be more valuable of a positional advantage than 'forced techs' and things like that.
Against Wario, I'd still consider getting him in the air/towards an edge as limiting him more than grounding him and hoping to get a read. It has its moments, but more as an 'extra' rather than a staple option. It always probably doesn't feel NEARLY as rewarding, considering you might just be tossing them into the air somewhere, but in the end, it's more beneficial overall.
He played the match-up decently well based on the way you played, but he left a lot of room for you to abuse him by doing that. Those videos definitely present a player vs player style showcase, rather than character vs character, as you both had distinct 'ideas' or ways of going about it.
It was all good, but those things (WD > Up-B/Ftilt or whatever when he's DJ FF Bair/Side-B > DJing, etc) are those offensive tools you could apply to catch him early in his aerial movements (to establish you 'can' do that, which would result in him adapting to using aerials earlier to try anticipating you [meaning leaving openings for you]) or catching him later (given his fairly consistent spacing off of Dash > Turn around > DJ Bairs, which, even with Wario's mobility, still doesn't match G&W ground speed + range)
Those are just ideas to try implementing. I'm not implying an overhaul of style/priorities against him/Wario, but these are just some of the things that could easily have turned the tides in those matches fairly clearly. Or, at the very least, forwarded the meta-game between the 2 of you in a way that he would have to learn/adapt to it, and start a chain of development that way.
You probably understood that though, just making sure it's clear.
Wario and G&W have sexy Dtilts.
It shouldn't be too difficult to insure that you'll connect with Up-B, the move is FAST. As well, landing if you have your DJ or the range of your aerials (Bacon upon landing even, like the way Samus can land and shoot an uncharged Blast to mess up someone thinking they can punish a no missile/no aerial/no waveland landing from her. Though this might not be common/popular/applied by many, I don't know if it is, but hopefully that makes sense. It's basically like a Bowser flame-cancel but not a fancy name for it and with other B moves.)
Waveland from the ledge. It's the best.
Probably kind of obvious and doesn't need to be said, but that's all I can share unless more specifics on what 'makes' it difficult are given.
Metmetm3t
Smash Lord
Juu, You need to Up-B off the ledge more. Recovering high is a really safe option, and you can choose to save your jump or not. You shouldn't be down throwing Wario when he is clearly in up throw> UAir percents. UAir leads into Up-B which leads to Nair which is 30%. I like that you are trying the DACUS, but none of them actually worked and don't act like no one saw the dash attacks that were failed DACUSs (DACUSi?). I'll watch it again later and write more.
Is the guy in that picture... crying?
Challenging people in the air with quick WD > SH Uair's and stuff are fun. Even just Dash SH Nair PASSED a DJumping Wario is rewarding and makes him think twice about doing any aerial stuff near you. Too much range for a paper-thingy.
Challenging people in the air with quick WD > SH Uair's and stuff are fun. Even just Dash SH Nair PASSED a DJumping Wario is rewarding and makes him think twice about doing any aerial stuff near you. Too much range for a paper-thingy.
Oracle
Smash Master
lost a game to a campy zss this weekend. maintining my position that gnw doesn't have the right tools to deal with camping
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
I think even if ZSS doesn't camp hard, her zoning is still too much for GnW to deal with. She's too fast and her limbs are too long.
I played a few seriouslies against Oro's ZSS this weekend and although he won most of them the match-up itself seemed pretty manageable. But at the same time, he plays semi-aggressively most of the time so maybe its different when the ZSS is camping hard. As far as zoning goes in the neutral game, bacon spam seemed pretty effective (except watch out for her run speed!) and up-b out of shield and in the air worked pretty well at escaping her combo pressure. I feel like Oro had to work a lot harder than he should have trying to kill me considering G&W's weight and floatiness because of how amazing up-b is.
I think the match-up advantage is influenced by stage choice more than anything else but overall, it seemed decently fair to me.
-Nap
I think the match-up advantage is influenced by stage choice more than anything else but overall, it seemed decently fair to me.
-Nap