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Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread
- Thread starter Juushichi
- Start date
Oracle
Smash Master
spoiler alert: 3.0 game and watch has moves that do things
Metmetm3t
Smash Lord
Playlist of me from a small tournament this weekend
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5M8YgzumO-BX-SHOXVewLByvIgFmlGEw
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5M8YgzumO-BX-SHOXVewLByvIgFmlGEw
geno
Smash Apprentice
Here's hoping for a jump cancelable bucket with a hotbox that smacks your opponents mercilessly to the ground. Could you imagine? Double bacon, bucket, wave-bucket, double bacon, wave-bucket, wave-bucket, bucket-spike. And then change his taunt to "Come on!". Welcome to top tier Mr. G&W.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
can i dislike posts
geno
Smash Apprentice
Bacon lasers! Hopefully they'll replace that pesky parachute thing with a kick of some sort too
EDIT: Found a picture of leaked 3.0 G&W
EDIT: Found a picture of leaked 3.0 G&W
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
yes, if you're wrong you do get butt-blasted by Bowser
Metmetm3t
Smash Lord
From playing Majora I think G&W vs. Bowser isn't too bad of a butt-blast. G&W can't ever approach, ever. Dair, Fair both get out ranged and Bair and Dtilt get CC'd until 1000%. But as long as you know Bowser's range and keep throwing Chef, Koopa is kinda stuck on the ground. When you get to the edge of the stage, cover yourself with some greasy breakfast and remember that his aerials require just as much of a commitment as yours so don't be afraid to call him out. Also grab, super armor ain't got **** on grabs.
Oracle
Smash Master
i thought the matchup was pretty easy but that comes from playing random bowsers on wifi and one game vs sethlon, so idk. just grab a lot and bowser has trouble with that
leelue
Smash Lord
I wish bacon and bucket were absorbable
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
To punish opposing GnW's even harder?
We already get hit by damn near all of our own combos for free.
We already get hit by damn near all of our own combos for free.
Metmetm3t
Smash Lord
Fun Fact: Unless they decide to change it. G&W will be able to absorb bacon shot by Kirby.
Dakpo
Smash Lord
me and oracle have a bunch of vids up btw, just youtube our names
Metmetm3t
Smash Lord
Save everyone a little time:
https://www.youtube.com/user/TXKHotSauce
https://www.youtube.com/user/TXKHotSauce
leelue
Smash Lord
For teams
Ness&G&W2013
Metmetm3t
Smash Lord
No need, ZSS+G&W is already OP
leelue
Smash Lord
It would be, if you could absorb bacon and bucket
Also, why would I play with ZSS?
Also, why would I play with ZSS?
leelue
Smash Lord
Also Ness GW would be awesome because bucket = fresh stock
dettadeus
Smash Lord
Wait, can Ness absorb Bucket with PSI Magnet?
Whaaaaaaatttttttttttttttttttt
Whaaaaaaatttttttttttttttttttt
Yung Mei
Where all da hot anime moms at
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2009
- Messages
- 5,341
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VSixMjDVkA
money match against bladewise
i think we should discuss the diddy matchup
money match against bladewise
i think we should discuss the diddy matchup
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
I got 5th at Outrage 2.
Lost to Sago (Snake) 2-1 who is currently sitting in Winners Finals set to play Fizzle (Sheik). I then lost to Lain (Fox, Falcon) 1-2 who goes on to play Carls (Wario) in Loser's Semi-finals. I went Zelda in game three on FD vs his Fox and just narrowly lost.
Won Doubles with Fizzle (GnW/TL + Sheik) coming from a loss vs Zinoto (Mario) + Xatic (Falcon) in Winner's Finals 2-3. Beat Carls (Wario) and Soul Pech (Jigglypuff) 3-2, mostly with my TL helping Fizzle's Sheik. Finished GF1 and GF2 3-1 and 3-0 respectively, playing all Game and Watch.
Lost to Sago (Snake) 2-1 who is currently sitting in Winners Finals set to play Fizzle (Sheik). I then lost to Lain (Fox, Falcon) 1-2 who goes on to play Carls (Wario) in Loser's Semi-finals. I went Zelda in game three on FD vs his Fox and just narrowly lost.
Won Doubles with Fizzle (GnW/TL + Sheik) coming from a loss vs Zinoto (Mario) + Xatic (Falcon) in Winner's Finals 2-3. Beat Carls (Wario) and Soul Pech (Jigglypuff) 3-2, mostly with my TL helping Fizzle's Sheik. Finished GF1 and GF2 3-1 and 3-0 respectively, playing all Game and Watch.
Metmetm3t
Smash Lord
@leelue ZSS's dsmash is fast and absorbing 2 of them will kill pretty much everyone at 40%. When I play teams with Ryker it's pretty common for me to get 3 or 4 stocks with it. Absorbing Ness's fire is low tier, his Up-B is pretty strong, but not as strong as ZSS Dsmash and definitely not as safe. As for Ness theoretically absorbing bacon, he'd have to chase them down since they go in random directions and they would only heal like 4% at a time.
And you only think you want Down-B to be absorbable until you realize that if Down-B became a projectile then it could be shined X_X
Overall, bad team idea is bad ZSS+G&W for life.
@Calvo Gratz you should learn G&W's glide toss. It's pretty boss. You also respected Diddy's recovery a lot. He can't do much when he is recovering low, so it should be gimp city. You also died a lot from flatline DI.
@Juu Gratz. I came in third at a tournament today. Lost to Ragnarok and Raminator.
And you only think you want Down-B to be absorbable until you realize that if Down-B became a projectile then it could be shined X_X
Overall, bad team idea is bad ZSS+G&W for life.
@Calvo Gratz you should learn G&W's glide toss. It's pretty boss. You also respected Diddy's recovery a lot. He can't do much when he is recovering low, so it should be gimp city. You also died a lot from flatline DI.
@Juu Gratz. I came in third at a tournament today. Lost to Ragnarok and Raminator.
dettadeus
Smash Lord
how to do g&w's glidetoss: a simple guide by a brawl player
step one: shield
step two: back roll
step three: hit either A or the c-stick in some direction you want to throw it in
step four: holy god you are sliding across the stage what is this madness
step five: dacus and/or profit
step one: shield
step two: back roll
step three: hit either A or the c-stick in some direction you want to throw it in
step four: holy god you are sliding across the stage what is this madness
step five: dacus and/or profit
Diddy didn't beat you there, It was your silliness that did, like giving him unnecessary room or aerials from the ledge.
Insanity, doing the same things over and over and expecting different results.
Hopefully you weren't expecting to hit him with Fair from the edge for the 3rd time in a row within the first 20 seconds of the match.
Before a character match-up is worth discussing in technicalities, player vs player has to be discussed WITH those characters. As in, screw banana-play and how to edge-guard him, what are the things Diddy wants to do, what can you do to screw that up. NOT, what can you do to stop him, just screw up the stuff he's trying to do.
I'll link an ancient post here.
Crap like what to watch for after Falcon aerials, whether it's running away, SH aerials again, jabbing, etc.
**** Glide Tossing and Edge-Guarding. That implies you know what you're doing on-stage in the neutral/transition game first.
Which surely (in all kind-heartedness) all the scrubs in the Project M game, even the best of them, 100% don't.
Insanity, doing the same things over and over and expecting different results.
Hopefully you weren't expecting to hit him with Fair from the edge for the 3rd time in a row within the first 20 seconds of the match.
Before a character match-up is worth discussing in technicalities, player vs player has to be discussed WITH those characters. As in, screw banana-play and how to edge-guard him, what are the things Diddy wants to do, what can you do to screw that up. NOT, what can you do to stop him, just screw up the stuff he's trying to do.
I'll link an ancient post here.
That's the only way match-up discussion actually makes sense.
Crap like what to watch for after Falcon aerials, whether it's running away, SH aerials again, jabbing, etc.
**** Glide Tossing and Edge-Guarding. That implies you know what you're doing on-stage in the neutral/transition game first.
Which surely (in all kind-heartedness) all the scrubs in the Project M game, even the best of them, 100% don't.
Metmetm3t
Smash Lord
@Nausicaa: that sure was a whole lot of nothing you said there. Are you asking for some more in-depth analysis of the diddy matchup? The thing is, there is no point in analyzing that video for diddy matchup advice.
With no offence meant to Calvo, that diddy player didn't know **** about playing diddy. He knew diddy's aerials were fast so he just jumped at G&W and pressed a button. How to counter: use G&W's disjointed hitboxes to out-prioritize him.
What a Diddy "wants to do" is hold a banana and stand next to one. That's his strongest position, it makes him very difficult to approach and he can chuck peanuts to make you want to come at him. The best thing you can do is make diddy uncomfortable by positioning yourself on nearby platforms. Then he'll probably move around and try to rely on his fast aerials to push you away. At which point G&W can go back to winning with his disjointedness and superior combo game.
Dodging and grabbing banana is very important. Diddy Kong always reserves the right to blow his load of them and go in. He also has monkey flip which changes his momentum completely, so you should always take it into account when making a read. Also, look out for his fair which is very similar to Mario's bair, so don't get caught off guard by it. Finally, dtilt is kinda ridiculous for edge guards so try to never recover low, but when you have to you have to make a read on whether he is going for dtilt or edgehog and try to sweetspot accordingly.
That's pretty much the whole matchup from my experience. Diddy doesn't have high damage combos and his smashes are only OK. Just don't try to force yourself into his fortress, bide your time and maximize your opportunities and it shouldn't be too bad.
Is that better Nausicaa?
With no offence meant to Calvo, that diddy player didn't know **** about playing diddy. He knew diddy's aerials were fast so he just jumped at G&W and pressed a button. How to counter: use G&W's disjointed hitboxes to out-prioritize him.
What a Diddy "wants to do" is hold a banana and stand next to one. That's his strongest position, it makes him very difficult to approach and he can chuck peanuts to make you want to come at him. The best thing you can do is make diddy uncomfortable by positioning yourself on nearby platforms. Then he'll probably move around and try to rely on his fast aerials to push you away. At which point G&W can go back to winning with his disjointedness and superior combo game.
Dodging and grabbing banana is very important. Diddy Kong always reserves the right to blow his load of them and go in. He also has monkey flip which changes his momentum completely, so you should always take it into account when making a read. Also, look out for his fair which is very similar to Mario's bair, so don't get caught off guard by it. Finally, dtilt is kinda ridiculous for edge guards so try to never recover low, but when you have to you have to make a read on whether he is going for dtilt or edgehog and try to sweetspot accordingly.
That's pretty much the whole matchup from my experience. Diddy doesn't have high damage combos and his smashes are only OK. Just don't try to force yourself into his fortress, bide your time and maximize your opportunities and it shouldn't be too bad.
Is that better Nausicaa?
Yung Mei
Where all da hot anime moms at
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2009
- Messages
- 5,341
i honestly feel bladewise played hella off, because he actually had to leave. We had to rush our money match. I definitely would have had a harder time playing against him if he wasnt rushed. plus, i barely played pm at all in all of april, i played maybe 3 times? this was my first time playing pm since then. we were both off as ****, and i personally wanna redo the money match because of this.
Kind of but not really.
I'll try and explain this with some better examples.
What are the things Diddy is looking to do in the neutral game/offensive game, and what can you do to screw that up?
He has a DD Grab, Dtilt, SH Aerial mix-up, he'll be looking to pull out a Banana, and shoot a peanut once in a while.
The Banana isn't the thing to worry about, that's coming. It's what he does before/with/after the Banana that matters at ALL. Which is what the PLAYER does with the character, NOT simply what the character is capable of.
When the Diddy does Down-B, and a Banana flies in the air, does he throw it towards you, and if so, does he jump to grab it immediately, wait for it to land and WD over it, shoot a peanut or start DDing waiting for you to try something?
THIS^ is all that's worth watching for. If he jumps for it, keep note of THAT. Maybe you can catch him for it next time, whether it's jumping towards him to aerial, or dash below/past to Utilt/bait out an attack/banana throw at you/make him DJ.
That kind of thing.
More important than 'move around on platforms and out-space him with your aerials' (character specific regardless of player)
Watch what kind of positioning they move to and way/when/why they try using aerials at you (character specific based on player)
The Diddy (PLAYER) aerials a lot and abuses his speed = player specific but with a character.
The 'How to Counter Diddy's aerial + speed tools' is along the lines of what's useful in match-up discussion.
The specifics on how to get around Dtilt edge-guarding isn't, as that's universal, not specific to the match-up (if it's not Diddy's Dtilt, it's Bowser/Wario/Marth's), and the same goes for 'not getting caught by *monkey flip/Fair/whatever. (same applies to Bowser/Wario/Marth too)
Instead, translate that to 'What positions are you/the Diddy (player) in when he tries to Dtilt vs Jump off and aerial vs Banana toss vs whatever, during an edge-guard.'
Counter what he DOES with Diddy's tools/speed/aerials, not what DIDDY does or can do with those tools universally.
Translate the 'not get caught by fast aerials/monkey flip' into 'What positions are you/the Diddy (player) in when he tries to Aerial/Flip/pull out a Banana/throw it'
Counter what he DOES, etc.
Like using G&W's big FAIR from the ledge 3 times. That's countering what CALVO does with G&W, not what G&W does/can do.
Hope that makes sense.
What do you watch for and need to REALLY deal with? The Banana's being thrown at you?
Or the Dash Grab/SH Aerial Diddy attempts after throwing them?
Essentially, less generic 'Diddy can do these so we can do these to deal with it'
And more 'Diddy wants to hit you with these and these are the moments you can hit him for trying'
This also leaves a lot more room for creativity and individual players perspective/take on how to play.
*less cut-and-dry analyzing, theorizing, playing*
Hope that makes sense. haha
I'll try and explain this with some better examples.
What are the things Diddy is looking to do in the neutral game/offensive game, and what can you do to screw that up?
He has a DD Grab, Dtilt, SH Aerial mix-up, he'll be looking to pull out a Banana, and shoot a peanut once in a while.
The Banana isn't the thing to worry about, that's coming. It's what he does before/with/after the Banana that matters at ALL. Which is what the PLAYER does with the character, NOT simply what the character is capable of.
When the Diddy does Down-B, and a Banana flies in the air, does he throw it towards you, and if so, does he jump to grab it immediately, wait for it to land and WD over it, shoot a peanut or start DDing waiting for you to try something?
THIS^ is all that's worth watching for. If he jumps for it, keep note of THAT. Maybe you can catch him for it next time, whether it's jumping towards him to aerial, or dash below/past to Utilt/bait out an attack/banana throw at you/make him DJ.
That kind of thing.
More important than 'move around on platforms and out-space him with your aerials' (character specific regardless of player)
Watch what kind of positioning they move to and way/when/why they try using aerials at you (character specific based on player)
The Diddy (PLAYER) aerials a lot and abuses his speed = player specific but with a character.
The 'How to Counter Diddy's aerial + speed tools' is along the lines of what's useful in match-up discussion.
The specifics on how to get around Dtilt edge-guarding isn't, as that's universal, not specific to the match-up (if it's not Diddy's Dtilt, it's Bowser/Wario/Marth's), and the same goes for 'not getting caught by *monkey flip/Fair/whatever. (same applies to Bowser/Wario/Marth too)
Instead, translate that to 'What positions are you/the Diddy (player) in when he tries to Dtilt vs Jump off and aerial vs Banana toss vs whatever, during an edge-guard.'
Counter what he DOES with Diddy's tools/speed/aerials, not what DIDDY does or can do with those tools universally.
Translate the 'not get caught by fast aerials/monkey flip' into 'What positions are you/the Diddy (player) in when he tries to Aerial/Flip/pull out a Banana/throw it'
Counter what he DOES, etc.
Like using G&W's big FAIR from the ledge 3 times. That's countering what CALVO does with G&W, not what G&W does/can do.
Hope that makes sense.
What do you watch for and need to REALLY deal with? The Banana's being thrown at you?
Or the Dash Grab/SH Aerial Diddy attempts after throwing them?
Essentially, less generic 'Diddy can do these so we can do these to deal with it'
And more 'Diddy wants to hit you with these and these are the moments you can hit him for trying'
This also leaves a lot more room for creativity and individual players perspective/take on how to play.
*less cut-and-dry analyzing, theorizing, playing*
Hope that makes sense. haha
Tested, incorrect. It just breaks through for a kill.
Metmetm3t
Smash Lord
You're thinking about it too hard Nausicaa. All that **** just comes natural; besides the fact, you kinda answered all of your own questions.
Yes they are going to do Diddy things, but most of it you can just ignore and to G&W things back. Sure you can analyze all of Diddy's options out of banana pull, but all that really matters is that it's pretty safe. So keep a distance where you can react. No amount of explaining is going to do as much for your matchup experience as 2 minutes in the ring.
Also spidermad you're right, diddy's got a lot of silly edge guards, be scared.
Yes they are going to do Diddy things, but most of it you can just ignore and to G&W things back. Sure you can analyze all of Diddy's options out of banana pull, but all that really matters is that it's pretty safe. So keep a distance where you can react. No amount of explaining is going to do as much for your matchup experience as 2 minutes in the ring.
Also spidermad you're right, diddy's got a lot of silly edge guards, be scared.
It comes natural, and it's the stuff that matters, so might as well give direct attention to it just a LITTLE big, wouldn't you think so too?
Things like that are 'safe and you can try to react to them'
Or they're 'safe because you're not acting accordingly to make it dangerous'
There's no reason Diddy should ever freely do anything. Or any character free to do anything for that matter.
Yes, this is natural, but it makes all the difference, it's the ONLY thing that makes all the difference. All I ask is that people give attention to this more than 'Bananas are scary, Fair is fast and rangy, Monkey Flip and Dtilt are good'
The answers aren't really what matter, that's the natural part. The 'match-up' thing is 100% the question.
When/How can you make Diddy's life hell among the stuff 'Diddy' will do, using what 'G&W' can do? Bypass the 'what' and into the 'how' haha.
That stuff alone is what wins/loses games.
Welcome back to smash? haha
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
I'm not sure what other characters should do exactly with Bananas, sometimes they throw them off screen like Hbox does with Peach's turnips but that's probably dumb lol. If your character has a good glide toss I would certainly use that, but there may be the concept that Diddy can too easily capture and use that banana again depending on how much of a difference your character's overall ability to grab/wavedash the banana and throw it compared to Diddy's basically perfect attributes for bananas. So maybe some characters should predominately not do anything with the bananas besides avoid them, with the rare mix-up of actually doing something with'em.