Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[leelue]

1) Could also pay more attention and not hit them towards your food using high endlag moves,and anticipate following up off of the food instead of being caught by surprise when it happens.

2) That's the way I feel anyway when I save someone and am unable to capitalize on it. For every projectile that you are able to hit them into it in a way to have it backfire, you are also able to hit them into it in ways you can benefit from. In chef's case you have the time it takes them to reach the food from where you hit them (up to 8 added) + 4 hitlag from the food + the hitstun of the food (10/15/19/24 stun at 0/50/100/150 damage) to work with. F-air has 12 landing lag, n-air 8, f-smash has 27 endlag, u-smash 14 (13 in front), d-smash 18, and d-tilt 19. If you're not able to combo directly you're usually at enough advantage to outspeed or outrange their options.


3) KB stack/reset working the way it does benefits a lot more than just the Falco's d-air/shine/u-tilt example. Besides up/down combos like that (opposing Y stacking), attacks that send towards you like Marth's u-tilt, Zelda's f-tilt, and Ganon's d-smash combo better (opposing X stacking),and multihit attacks, especially moving ones like Lucario's u-smash, are able to link much better (within 10 frame hits KB reset).

1- You've given me the alternative which can and will often be at odds with the often-is-the-case selection that is "Whatever move will hit him". The latter being what makes for intuitive and unfrustrating gameplay.

2- So we are talking about somewhere between like 25 and 31 frames. It is doable in some circumstances, but if we are using Fair as an example and the median of those two numbers (so 28 frames) you are giving someone 16 frames to; travel until they hit the ground; calculate what move can hit the opponent from where they got hit; perhaps go into jumpsquat; and then get the move out. All of that to be done as quickly as a human being can go.
Yeah I have seen the opportunity for a follow up ftilt before and gotten it, but it isn't exactly fun to have to do all the time. Sometimes it feels like putting in extra work to compensate for a flaw in the game. Especially so when you have someone like Snake who has to deal with his own cipher threatening to erase a kill on a regular basis.

3) Is there no way for it to be programmed as such that when a move greatly overwhelms the other in kb the stronger one just wins? This would keep things like dins, cipher, bacon, and innumerate errant projectiles in teams matches from doing such odd things to normal gameplay.



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As for GW v Ganon, I kinda like it for Game and watch. Unfortunately I can't really say since eli is still adjusting to my game and watch and my ganon usually does reaaaallly well against his dubs.

 

[Juushichi]

It feels pretty close, Leelue. I almost want to give the edge to Ganon because he a lot more threatening on offense and gets more reward on a hit, but being able to crouch a lot of errant Ganondorf approaches is very good. I almost want to call it even.

 

[Oracle]

what magus said; just be smarter with your bacon. It happens to me too (see here), but 100% of the time its because i'm using bacon unintelligently or not basing my followups around it

 

[leelue]

@ngel, yeah that is the current correct advise for people playing the game. Of course you deal with the hand that you've been dealt.
But since the game is allowed to change when some things are "janky" or "bad design" or "annoying" or whatever buzzword is being thrown around these days, I bring it up. It's something about the game's current state that I don't care for since it has very negative repercussions on what you would expect to happen. The moments where you hit your enemy in teams and they would die but are instead completely saved by an errant falco laser are entertaining, but -for lack of a better word- stupid.

Consider the alternative I gave in my previous post where if a move's KB greatly overwhelms the interrupting hit, it overrides the weaker one. Unless I'm missing something, this would allow all of the things that magus claimed to be important to function as they do while injecting some intuitiveness into the rest of the game.

 

[Oracle]

the current kb stacking system allows for lots of difficult and complicated traps, setups, and team saves using projectiles and only punishes you for using w/e more poorly. It might not be 100% intuitive but it adds a good amount of depth

 

[Artimus]

Yeah, Ganon vs GW is a bad MU for Ganon. Ganon gets caught in all of GW's bull**** it seems, though on the flipside Ganon can kill GW at like.. what? 15%? Lol

 

[Yung Mei]

yeah, he can just counterpick warioware, and jab you once and youre dead (laughs)

 

[Artimus]

It certainly feels that way. On a side note, I LOVE Warioware for GW. So many combos.

 

[Yung Mei]

im more of a fountain of dreams/PS2 man myself

 

[Metmetm3t]

Episode 2 is out. Enjoy:

 

[leelue]

@ngel- literally everything that is added into the game adds depth (unless it centralizes a character too much). But that's not a good reason to include it. Little things that add "bad moments" to the game should have serious merit and I think this fails that test considering how "bad" those moments can feel. As a small aside, the bacon would still have interesting traps associated with it at low damage if you used my system since the KB of a strong attack still wouldn't be big enough to break the bacon. Best of both worlds?

Metroid, why do you say the Uair has the least helpful box? I mean, it probably does, but being able to mix between wavelanding and the second hitbox is pretty sweet.

Oh and I hate FoD, but it's kinda cool to be able to duck under the low platforms.

 

[Yung Mei]

the platforms are amazing for combo'ing, at least in my opinion
otherwise, i ****ing hate fod for everyone else i play as

 

[Juushichi]

I love FoD and Dreamland sometimes.

 

[leelue]

Besides wario ware, I've had a good time on battlefield

 

[Oracle]

bad is subjective. what i'm getting from your posts is 'i think it's dumb so it needs to be changed'. The only repercussion of your system is removing a lot of things you can do at high percent with bacon so that you can spam it a little more often. I still don't see a real reason to change knockback stacking

 

[leelue]

Most arguments about something being changed are essentially "I think this is dumb so it needs to be changed".

My reasons are beyond "it is stupid". It is counter intuitive, hurts random characters, and produces feel-bad moments (especially in teams).

"Bad" is subjective, but there are players who find this to be a negative thing when it interferes with kills. That (the number of players who feel this way) is objective. I am not the only one who thinks this way, I just speak up a lot.

And to your second point, it's "Removing things you can do at high percent that you wouldn't be forced to do since your opponent would be dead. Instead of not dead".

 

[Yung Mei]

Most arguments about something being changed are essentially "I think this is dumb so it needs to be changed".

My reasons are beyond "it is stupid". It is counter intuitive, hurts random characters, and produces feel-bad moments (especially in teams).

"Bad" is subjective, but there are players who find this to be a negative thing when it interferes with kills. That (the number of players who feel this way) is objective. I am not the only one who thinks this way, I just speak up a lot.

And to your second point, it's "Removing things you can do at high percent that you wouldn't be forced to do since your opponent would be dead. Instead of not dead".

this a lot

i lost count of how many times an opponent got knocked into my bacon while i was spacing the other guy when a move my partner hit was supposed to kill them/launch them offstage

 

[leelue]

To just say what I hope can be my last piece on the matter
@ngel, you were saying that I and other players are spamming bacon irresponsibly
But it's only irresponsible because the game punishes this particular projectile (and a couple of other things, but this projectile really hard) for reasons that were instituted Compleeetely unrelated to the projectile. It is collateral damage and my solution would solve this damage.

 

[Artimus]

I like the way KB is set up. Sure if you spam bacon and FS them into it it's going to stop them immediately, so.. just don't spam bacon approaches at 75%+. Use it for spacing and not kills.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Hey guys Chef stops the opponent in place; it has it's good and bad sides. In other news Dair to Up Smash is a guaranteed kill on Luigi at around 60%

 

[Artimus]

Guaranteed kill on most middle weights around 60-70% range. Spent a long time in training playing with that on almost all characters, and if I remember correctly.

Light - 45-60
Middle - 60-75
Heavy - 75-90
(Tests done on FD)

Who else likes DACUS tech chases?


Edit: Actually, those numbers may need to be a little higher. It's been about a month since I did that, I'm probably off by about 5-10 percent on all of those. I know Jiggs dies at like, 12% though. lolol

 

[Juushichi]

I think everyone who really plays GnW should be trying to DACUS in tech chase situations or to wreck poor DDers.

 

[Yung Mei]

i tried mixing up gatling combo on my opponents today, and i managed to hit the roll twice, its awesome

also, best way to gatling (when hitting the opponent) is cstick down->cstick up, cstick down to dsh aattack into them, cstick up to cancel into usmash


on the subject of bacon, i use it mostly to build damage - if im fighting Donkey Kong, i sure as **** am not gonna approach him cuz he hits really damn hard and combos hard; especially if we're both at high percents, im gonna try and hit him with a bacon to stun him long enough to go in for the kill. this is my problem with bacon - i use it as a damage builder, and to set up kills against hard hitters, and it ****ing sucks when im able to stun him but then BEHOLD bacon just ruins everything


bacon is the worst double edged sword ever lmao



ALSO, speaking or dAir->uSmash, is that seriously guaranteed? im not questioning it, i love that combo lmao, but is it possible to DI or avoid the uSmash?

 

[Metmetm3t]

You can't DI meteors, And since they are already on the ground there it's not techable. At the right percents they won't even go high enough to land on a platform.

A few things I left out of the video is that SH > UAir > DAir guarantees that only the landing hitbox will come out, and Landing DAir can shield poke. There's almost no reason not to wait and try to force it, because in many ways it's better than trying to rack up damage for a FAir or NAir kill.

 

[Artimus]

Yeah, I use Dair>Upsmash ALOT for early kills.

 

[faderpotater]

I really want to start using game and watch and the first thing I'm trying to master is the DACUS however I'm having an incredible amount of trouble, even with trying to claw it. Any tips that's might prove useful?

 

[Juushichi]

Hm... I would say start with some other characters and work up.

It's a kinda difficult sweetspot. Go something like... Ganon/Falco > Snake/Lucas > Marth or so to Watch. It's all in the timing.

 

[Yung Mei]

im still waiting for you guys >:C
http://smashboards.com/threads/lets-make-a-gnw-video.334986/

 

[Oracle]

set an unused trigger button to attack and practice. thats the only way I got it down

 

[faderpotater]

Hmmm thanks. I got it with Ganon fairly quickly when I tried. Guess I'll just keep trying with more characters. I was thinking of trying to use L trigger for it but I have to see I I really can't it it with claw because I like using L for jump cancels with some of the other characters I play.

 

[Artimus]

Hmmm thanks. I got it with Ganon fairly quickly when I tried. Guess I'll just keep trying with more characters. I was thinking of trying to use L trigger for it but I have to see I I really can't it it with claw because I like using L for jump cancels with some of the other characters I play.

Don't think of Up+A as a separate thing from dash attack. Dask forward, down c-stick and "at the same time" roll the thumbstick up and press A. The timing is strict at one frame, but it's not too difficult once you understand the motion. Think of it all as happening at ONCE and it makes it easier, because human error compensates for the one frame timing.

 

[faderpotater]

I have gotten it a few times after getting used to it on other characters. Just have to start getting it a bit more consistent.

 

[leelue]

Hey guys Chef stops the opponent in place; it has it's good and bad sides. In other news Dair to Up Smash is a guaranteed kill on Luigi at around 60%

Wait really? I can combo the nairmaster?
Also I can't dacus with GW ever

 

[Oracle]

So it turns out that if peach stands under a platform and throws turnips game and watch cant win. Very troubling

 

[Yung Mei]

yeah, i had to play bladewise at sakuracon, and he went peach after i start destroying his diddy


it wasnt fun ;w;

 

[Metmetm3t]

physical projectiles are very tough for G&W to deal with. He can't swat them effectively so he has to try to dodge them, which is exactly what Peach/Link/Tink/Diddy wants. His options are just severely limited.

 

[Oracle]

bucket should absorb all projectiles get ready for stitchface bucket

 

[dettadeus]

In any instance where someone throws an item projectile at you, you can Instant-AGT it back at them. Turnips, bombs (a bit harder), bananas, and even peanuts can be thrown back. Just work on the timing.

 

[Yung Mei]

posted in the wrong thread


dash attack into dacus is now a true combo
ill try and make a video soon, this is awesome

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, you can reverse hit the dash attack if you use it deep enough to land it.