Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[dettadeus]

I'd be down for that.

 

[Metmetm3t]

For G&W to beat marth he has to out-play him. Marth's moveset allows him to punish G&W for every miscue. This does leave G&W the opportunity to bait Marth's attacks, but at the same time Marth can often just use low risk arials and be fine. Marth's assaults come in waves and if you stay focused on when he is trying to attack and when he is retreating G&W can sneak in a few combos and then force Marth to make mistakes while playing from behind.

 

[Nahpro]

I agree about Marth. It seems like a really bad matchup and despite all the buffs that G&W got, it hasn't changed much since Melee. Marth's got quicker attacks than you, he has better range (he can just outrange you and be in forward smash tipper range I think), and he's got a better dash dance, grab game, and overall mobility. He can get rid of bacon spam very easily with fairs similar to Ike (although it slows the sword down a bit) and he can dashdance camp better and just wait for you to throw something out and punish it. His combos hurt a lot, can't be up+b'ed out of easily and many of them can end in spikes which you obviously can't meteor cancel and survive. And G&W's horrible tech rolls don't help when you get caught in his grab game.

I really don't know what to tell you, Dapko. You either have to play a lot smarter or play a different character. Feels bad.

-Nap

 

[Juushichi]

Well, I have metroid via Skype and the conversation is up.

My Skype is Juushichi.

Also... can we make this character weigh more... Please?

 

[dettadeus]

pretty sure my skype name is Dettadeus
if that ends up being the wrong one, try dettadrifloon

 

[Nahpro]

Well, late to the party or whatever. For future discussions, my Skype is nahpro.nax

 

[Juushichi]

I got you, detta and metroid so far.

 

[Magus420]

Something I've wanted to get more in the habit of doing is bucket braking after DIing something into the floor at high damage and sliding offstage (usually remember I can when it's a bit too late).

Also wanted to get more used to using double stick DI into the floor after missing something on the ground with him and expecting to get hit/killed (holding down-away on left stick and down on c-stick in this case). I do this in melee already in some especially punishable situations like getting rests punished, whiffed side-b/down-bs/smashes with Ganon/CF, and their up-b landings.

The few times I remember to do it with G&W though I usually tech as well due to habit which is terrible with him, lol... BUT combine those things (DSDI and bucket braking) and you can make G&W live longer than normal on the ground against horizontal attacks. Any character can do this and tech roll instead, but being able to slide a safe distance away before bucketing as needed makes his safer (can only tech in one direction while doing it which can be punished easily with tech rolls being sticky and not sliding).

I did some testing and made a video showing what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VprvPxW4bw0


These lists show how effective it is compared to good DI in the air, and how much better it works as the angle of the attack hitting you gets lower (stuff like Fox/Falco d-smash you can just plain DI down by itself to hit the floor for a very long time). For the lower angles I modified Mario's f-smash so it'd be the same power in all 3 to be able to compare them better.

Spoiler

KO damages before the hit (unstaled), hitting G&W to the left (same locations as video). Also included simply DIing straight down by itself.


Mario F-Smash (361/44 Angle vs Ground)

Damage Location            DI
--------------------------------------------
62     (Flat Ground)       Down
66     WW - Left Side      Normal
80     SV - Left Side      Normal
80     WW - Right Side     Normal
82     FD - Left Side      Normal
83     MC - Left Slope     Normal
85     BF - Left Side      Normal
89     SV - Right Side     Normal
92     BF - Right Side     Normal
92     FD - Right Side     Normal
94     (Flat Ground)       Down-Away; C-Stick Down
95     DL - Left Side      Normal
96     MC - Left Slope     Down
103    DL - Right Side     Normal
148    MC - Left Slope     Down-Away; C-Stick Down

-Most diagonal sending attacks use this angle. Sends at 44 vs ground (unless the KB is extremely weak like Falco's lasers then it has a 0 angle vs ground), and 45 vs air.


Mario F-Smash (modified to have 40 Angle)

Damage Location            DI
--------------------------------------------
59     WW - Left Side      Normal
78     SV - Left Side      Normal
79     (Flat Ground)       Down
79     BF - Left Side      Normal
80     WW - Right Side     Normal
81     FD - Left Side      Normal
83     MC - Left Slope     Normal
87     DL - Left Side      Normal
89     SV - Right Side     Normal
92     BF - Right Side     Normal
92     FD - Right Side     Normal
103    DL - Right Side     Normal
117    (Flat Ground)       Down-Away; C-Stick Down
131    MC - Left Slope     Down
231    MC - Left Slope     Down-Away; C-Stick Down

-ZSS' F-Smash and Sheik's D-Smash (1st hit) use a 40 angle. Peach's D-Smash sends towards her at a 40 angle, but DIing it into the ground you usually have to tech to not get hit multiple times.


Mario F-Smash (modified to have 37 Angle)

Damage Location            DI
--------------------------------------------
55     WW - Left Side      Normal
74     SV - Left Side      Normal
74     BF - Left Side      Normal
76     FD - Left Side      Normal
78     MC - Left Slope     Normal
80     WW - Right Side     Normal
81     DL - Left Side      Normal
89     SV - Right Side     Normal
92     BF - Right Side     Normal
92     FD - Right Side     Normal
96     (Flat Ground)       Down
103    DL - Right Side     Normal
142    (Flat Ground)       Down-Away; C-Stick Down
173    MC - Left Slope     Down
324    MC - Left Slope     Down-Away; C-Stick Down

-Wolf's D-Smash uses a 37 angle.


Other Examples
35 - Most of Ike's Tip Hits
32 - CF Knee, Ganon F-Tilt (unangled)
30 - TL D-Smash, Zelda D-Smash (front)
25 - Fox/Falco D-Smash, Zelda D-Smash (back), Sheik F-Air
20 - G&W D-Smash (inside)

Basically on normal angles it's better by at least a little bit at keeping you alive anywhere except on Dreamland, and on any lower angled attacks it's always more effective than taking the hit to the air.

 

[Nahpro]

Thanks for the data! I always forget to bucket brake, especially after crouch cancel DI so it's really helpful to know how effective this can be. I should follow your example and work harder to incorporate this into my game. By the way, how abusable do you think this could be at high levels of play? I got the impression that this really relies on prediction instead of reaction so there might be other better options to choose from in that about to be hit situation. At the same time, there are plenty of technical beasts out there so maybe someday this degree of double stick DI bucket braking will become standard meta? That's kind of a scary thought...

Edit for clarity: As for my comments about being technical, I have no idea how difficult this is to accomplish. I just feel like certain individuals with high technical ability will be able to do this in the future on reaction and perhaps regularly.

 

[Oracle]

You guys are crazy about the marth matchup. Learn better di and it gets much harder for him to do much plus offeslnsively you poop on him

 

[Magus420]

Input and timing wise it's basically the same as normal DI (be holding the direction before the hitlag ends) + also holding a direction on the c-stick, then down-bing after sliding off the stage but before going too far out. The main difficulty I think is just getting used to doing it instead of the usual survival DI reflex at high damage.

 

[Juushichi]

I think everyone understands that if you DI Marth properly that his killing potential is much worse.

Could you explain how we "poop on Marth offensively", though?

 

[Oracle]

if you can hit marth with an up b above like 10%, you can end his stock fairly consistently through dair techchases and whatnot. Dair's landing hitbox into up smash will kill him around 70 or something ridiculous like that. If he ever short hops, you can just fair him; unless you're super late, then it'll beat out his fair. If he full hops then up b or bacon will make it really hard to get down. If he stays on the ground then wd into down tilt is very powerful against him, as well as walk up->chair. plus you duck his grab which is always good

Game 2 and on I go game and watch for both sets. Even though I lose it was mostly to me getting outplayed/not really being into the sets, not marth cheesing g&w

 

[Oracle]

Stupid double posting

 

[Nahpro]

Hey Oracle, thanks for sharing those matches. You're certainly correct about being able to combo Marth pretty effectively when you got the chance but I couldn't help but notice that whenever Sethlon spaced correctly, he managed to shut down almost all your options. You might call it being outplayed but in my opinion, Marth's range, speed of attacks, and mobility allowed Sethlon to out space you rather easily when he wanted to and for absurd profit.

And a lot of your opportunities seem to come from crouch cancels which Marth can negate by using his grab game, which due to G&W's laggy tech rolls are very easy to start and propagate and also camp for a forward smash or d-tilt follow up from Marth.

The game at 7:23 in the first video shows just how nasty Marth can be when he camps outside your effective range and takes advantage of G&W's laggy attacks.

Personally, I sometimes play against metroid's Marth, which was his main in melee, and it just feels painful. He usually avoids hasty judgements on matchups and almost everything in smash but he did say he that this match-up felt "easy." Then again, I am not on an equal level as metroid so that naturally skews it a bit.

Anyway, I fully respect both you and Sethlon as very high level and tourney competent players but I do think that Sethlon's Marth is not taking full advantage of some of G&W's inherent weaknesses.

Edit: Also, thanks for the reply, Magus. I guess I was building it up too much in my head. It seems too good to be true to be able to bucket brake a knee in the 200% range in a normal game. I definitely have to look into this.

 

[Oracle]

at 7:23 I don't fast fall some fairs and DI poorly which is why most of that stuff happened. If he DD camps then you can push him to the edge of the stage and wd forward dtilt. If you think he'll shield you can just grab. And grab doesn't beat CC when your crouch ducks his grab.

I don't think you understand why this matchup isn't bad. Because of your amazing oos, run up->shield will beat literally every single one of marth's options from a dash dance minus grab, since you can OOS up b away or, what happens more often, simply sh fair into combos. Of course he can grab if he knows you're gonna shield, but then you can attack and so on and so forth. Basically, since marth can't safely space on your shield like he can vs. most characters, it becomes a simplified situation where the smarter player will come out the victor. If you say marth is a bad matchup it would imply he has some cheesy technique that beats everything g&w does or some safe pressure or some guaranteed zero to death combo or some super easy edgeguards, of which marth has none.

Just so you know, post tournament sethlon dakpo and I played friendlies for a few hours, of which dakpo won nearly all of vs sethlon. I wish I could dacus like him

 

[Oracle]

I did it again. Fak

 

[Nahpro]

It's not that I think Marth has some special technique that screws over G&W in particular. The way I see it, he's just stronger in most of the categories that G&W typically excels at. I feel like a broken record talking about the start up speed of his attacks and range relative to G&W but I do think that's the part that gives me the most trouble at least. I think Marth's d-tilt is longer (although I haven't formally tested it) and even while G&W's d-tilt profit is amazing, Marth's d-tilt seems like an excellent way to stuff running and wave-dash + tilt approaches. Marth's foward tilt and up tilt seem like they can prevent many aerial approaches and bacon spam doesn't do much against short hop fairs, which are quick, can be doubled in a short hop, and are actually not affected by clanking with bacon at all. And going back to his mobility, I feel like when G&W gets in, it is so easy for Marth to just retreat and reset to neutral.

Overall, it seems to me that Marth can rely more on reaction in this match up and G&W needs to predict more. But hey, it seems like we have really different experiences with the match up so maybe I'm exaggerating how bad the match up feels. I'll try abusing the OoS up+b to see if it helps at all.

Edit: Also, any possibility of seeing those Dakpo and Sethlon matches? I'm very interested in seeing some more of Dakpo's play. I saw his match against Sethlon in BR7 but it would be very interesting to see how he adapted with more games and experience.

 

[Oracle]

Everything you just listed gets beaten but run up-> shield. Plus if they're dashdancing they can't really dtilt unless they dash towards, then wd back, then dtilt, which is pretty slow. Marth always seems hard if you don't have experience vs. one

 

[Nahpro]

So I watched your vids again and I couldn't seem to find any cases where you used this option. I see a lot of up+b after laggy attacks and from crouch cancel and hitstun but I don't remember seeing it used out of shield more than once or twice. Is it more of a deterrent option or was this something Dakpo started applying in his friendlies with Sethlon? It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I'm a little confused about exactly when to apply this run up shield followed by OoS up+b tactic and it would help if I could see an in match application.

Also, it's true that I don't have much Marth experience in P:M but I still remember vividly playing this match up in Melee against metroid with an admittedly far inferior G&W and also as a Sheik so I know Marth's spacing game and I'd like to think that I am at least aware of most of his tactics and follow ups but maybe I'm just seeing ghosts of it right now. G&W is a lot better now after all.

 

[Oro?!]

Shield sucks you are fooling yourself Oracle. Only noobs lose to shield and CC. : /

 

[Oracle]

usually if you're running up and shielding you would hit them with a fair rather than an up b unless their spacing is bad. Marth's moves aren't frame safe on block and you match his range so once you shield a move you can pretty much do whatever you want to him. I didn't run up shield a lot vs sethlon because he knows I like to do it so he would have just grabbed me

watch the first match on yoshis. almost all of my hits on seth came from oos options. Usually it was fair not up b

 

[batistabus]

I think GW should have at least the first projectile of his B attack set to one path every time so it can be at least somewhat more reliable and less random.

 

[Oracle]

more projectiles=less randomness. plus the paths aren't significantly different enough to matter

 

[Metmetm3t]

more projectiles=less randomness. plus the paths aren't significantly different enough to matter

No, There is a potential 30° degree difference, which is more than significant. I just watched Nap throw out four bacon on flat terrain and Ike still just side-B through it. Each one of those shots had a 1/6 chance of going low and stopping him, which equates to a 52% chance. You can't really expect to throw more bacon than that in a Melee match without getting destroyed. Chef is a powerful move and the reward is sweet, but you can't expect The Cloud to be there every time. You just have to space well, hope for the best and react fast.

 

[Oracle]

bacon is to control air space, so most of the time the side b is gonna be a good answer. However, it has very little lag so you should be able to do something when you land if you see it coming. Good ground dashes like that are really good against bacon since its essentially an anti air, so nap shouldn't have been spamming it against ike

 

[Metmetm3t]

My point wasn't whether or not Nap should have used Chef in that situation. It was about how the randomness affects the move. The fact that neither player can predict where the bacon are going until they've progressed enough in their arc leads to a lot of guessing. Anyone who has ever spammed bacon can remember times when the opponent made a guess, found a whole in the cloud and punished them unexpectedly.

 

[Oracle]

Well obviously the randomness is going to slightly affect the move, but if you position yourself well then it isn't an issue. Nap put himself in a position where a random out was his only chance of not getting hit, so thats on him, not the hammer.

Plus, your odds are off. A low bacon off of the higher pan from the SHDB would still go above ike's head, meaning game and watch only had a 31% chance of hitting a low bacon off the low sh

 

[NME-TempesT]

I still just want to know how to DACUS with G&W...I've got it down with Ganon, Lucas, Snake, Link...pretty much everyone except for G&W.

 

[Magus420]

If you aren't already you need to use an attack button to do the u-smash. The boost grab window (cancel the dash attack into grab) overlaps the boost smash window for 1 frame, so if you use grab to do it on that timing you'll get a grab and using attack you'll get the u-smash. The boost smash window for G&W, Marth, and Wolf is 1 frame which makes it only possible during that overlap. Some change one of the shoulder buttons to attack. I've always used all of the buttons since melee depending on the situation so I just move my finger down from Z and use A to do it.

 

[Juushichi]

 

[Oracle]

This is hilariously bad. Rob losing to falco? Ganon losing 90-10 to fox? Mario 60-40 over falco? lolwut

I don't really agree with any of the matchups for game and watch, especially not the marth one (as you guys know). I have so many questions. Why does shiek beat him 75 to 25? It was barely even that bad in MELEE for christ sake. How is the matchup in mario's favor when we can bucket his main approaching tool? Diddy kong mu might be bad, but its hardly 80-20

 

[dettadeus]

juu, april fool's day is next week

 

[Oro?!]

Oracle don't worry about it man. GnW has 2 winning matchups against Sonic and Peach. ; )

 

[Juushichi]

juu, april fool's day is next week

That's what I was saying in that thread, lol.

I don't think Sheik is all that bad, like Oracle thinks.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Who's list is that? And why is vs Wolf worse than vs Falco worse than vs Fox? Wild Stuff.

 

[Juushichi]

It's the list from the Matchup Chart v1 thread, lol.

Personally, I wouldn't even have the audacity to list all of GnW's MU's, let alone every character in the games'. I don't pretend to know that much about this game.

I felt that Wolf was close to even last time I played it, but I haven't played it in a while.

 

[Metmetm3t]

I see, well as a spring board for matchup discussions I guess it has it's merits. Like I actually do thing vs. Link, Tink and Diddy are pretty bad matchups, though to what degree I'm not certain. Running away and throwing projectiles is very effective against G&W. He has no arial that can swat them away without also putting himself in a lot of lag.

 

[Juushichi]

I can't say I had a lot of experience with Diddy, but when P-1 came up to Columbus, I thought it was pretty close. I got destroyed for the first two-three games and then won more than I lost at the end.

Then again, I am not sure if P-1 has exhausted much of DDK yet. The Links are really bad for us, though.

 

[Metmetm3t]

On Dreamland and Skyworld G&W can not full hop onto the platforms, but if he does an Uair or Dair his hitbox will move and he will land on them.