Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[dettadeus]

all those were either platform interruptions, used at too low a percent (for Ike, at least) or a delayed/badly made input (waiting until near the peak of the SH, wavebouncing it, etc)
;P

without platforms to interrupt, you typically have to use hammer almost immediately after the Uthrow (some characters require a SH even at lower percents, many characters can still be hit by standing hammer even into higher percents like Falcon)
i've tested it and it is a guaranteed combo if:
a. you are at the right percent range for the character
b. you read the DI properly
c. you space it properly
d. you hammer immediately after the throw

missing any one of these components will likely force a whiff and how hard you get punished for it depends on which one you are missing

 

[Metmetm3t]

If they are at percents to get hit they are at percents to tech. You should expect any aware opponent to always take the safe tech all the time. Throw to Judgement is viable, but because DI exists it's not free. You have to keep a high awareness of where you are on the stage.

 

[G13_Flux]

i like up b in combo with judgement better. gives you much more of an advantage over the opponent to hit them. uthrow also leads directly into up b, which is another reason to use judgement after up b. after uthrow, i rarely use judegment unless its a fast faller. i usually use uair or up b. utilt can work too.

also at this time, i would just like to anounce that i have gained a monopoly on the GW character thread entirely. My name currently consists of all of the last posts under each thread plus 9 for me

 

[Juushichi]

Uthrow leads directly to a lot of things and honestly I think it depends on flavor/character weight what you do.

I love uthrow-uair/Up-B on light characters, but not really on mid-to-heavies... as DM knows.

 

[G13_Flux]

well its more about fall speed. throws arent affected by weight.

 

[Juushichi]

Okay, so I've decided to do in P:M basically what I was/am doing in Yomi... which is basically playing First-to-Fives (FT5) with some of the locals/anyone I think I can get some good experience with.

So far tonight, I'm 0-2 in my FT5's. Some will have vids, some won't since I borrow my friend's laptop for recording. I'll recap some of them as I get to them, too.

[01/30/12]
Set 1 vs Carls (Wario) [L 0-5]
Holy moly, this was absolutely disgusting. My matches always started off very well, I'd get the lead... maybe get a cool dacus kill or something, but as the matches drew on, I wasn't able to convert. My getup options were probably pretty transparent, because I kept getting killed by bair and waft after he baited something of mine coming off of the ledge. Outside of that, in neutral I died to shoulder bash a lot more than I probably had business dealing with. In this set he also daired the top of my shield and I tried to punish OOS... but Wario's air mobility is a bit too good for me to do something like that. Got bodied, exposed, etc. Wasn't fun.

Set 2 vs Carls (Wario) [L 4-5]
Much, much closer. I felt like I was still dying to some of the same stuff (baits from bair/waft/shoulder charge) but loads and loads less. I missed on a lot of conversions, but found that FH Fair was a pretty okay option to a lot of his feints if I delayed it a tad. When I knocked him off stage, I was a bit more aggressive with my edge guards and it paid off a lot more. I think I need to DI/choose some options better, because I was constantly getting jabbed/grabbed before I could Up-B OOS or jump out. I started rolling a little and that helped... but then shoulder charge. I've also got to get a bit more creative off the ledge.

Stages that worked for me: Dreamland, Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium 1, Fountain of Dreams
Stages that didn't work: Wario Ware, Final Destination, Pokemon Stadium 2.

Set 1 vs Quivo (Marth) [L 1-5]
Holy crap. I knew that this matchup felt like *** and I was completely correct. It just doesn't feel like anything I could do was anything substantial. Once I could get in or get a grab or something, I could do a lot of things. I was just not able to do anything for about 75% of this MU. I don't know how I won the match I did on Yoshi's Story, but I managed to. I feel like there's not much more for me to say about it, lol.

Stages that worked: Fountain of Dreams, Dreamland
Staged that didn't: Battlefield, Yoshi's Story

More to come, I guess.

 

[G13_Flux]

in all honesty you played two very hard MUs for GW. my worst MUs for GW would be like this: marth, ike, link, tink, jiggs, and wario. thats not in any particular order, but those characters i have found to be the hardest for our 2D friend. but at least u came back very well on set 2 vs wario, the improvement there shows u probably started to pick up well on the MU. the math MUs a given, but definitely try to post some videos at least of the wario one, particularly that 4-5 game set. with a lot of eyes looking at it, we can definitely break down the gameplay and look in detail at the MU and help you forward from there

 

[Oracle]

I don't really see why you're having trouble with marths. Dtilt a lot is pretty good vs him

 

[YellaFeva]

I don't really see why you're having trouble with marths. Dtilt a lot is pretty good vs him

If you are facing a bad Marth any move will destroy him lol. But I think we are talking about respectable Marth's that can space very well without getting shield grabbed, knows his chain grab, and takes full advantage of the tipper, while having good movement around the stage. SH double fair goes right over Dtilt

 

[Oracle]

The marth I was playing knew all of that. You can cc dtilt like everything that marth does (including sh fair), as well has duck his grab, as well as get ridiculous combos. If he's spamming tipper, then spotdodge when you think he's gonna do it

 

[G13_Flux]

well its obviously not universal to every marth and every GW player. obviously theres other things to factor in like legitimate MU experience and playstyle. but in my experience, marth just solidly outranges GW. dtilt can only take you so far, and marth still has moves that outrange that. he is also much faster than you, and can really just shut you down in general. to me, on paper it looks like this, and it does as well from my experience, and ive noticed a good large portion of GWs having trouble with marths.

 

[i1y]

How is the MU against Lucario for G&W? Any tips and tactics against this pokemon?

Also, I love what they have done with the character in Project M. He is a lot of fun. He's got some setbacks, such as his throws (which I find to be slow... but I may be wrong.). Any tips for his grab game?

 

[G13_Flux]

well his grab game is actually really good IMO. the problem is in landing grabs, because he doesnt have a really high speed to make up for his small grab range. tech chases with dthrow are always good, you just have to know how to do them with GW, since its not as simple as the easy run and regrab with someone like CF, at least not always. WD > dsmash i find to give you the best combo of speed and range out of all his attacks. DA can be good as well and especially DACUS. his uthrow is great for setting up juggles with uair, utilt, up b, and even connecting to hammer. bthrow and fthrow dont have quite the utilty that the other ones do, but they are great for DI mixing up like sheiks dthrow and bthrow, since all of his throws look the same. they can connect to hammer and up b as well sometimes, but ive had more success going for fairs and nairs on them but usually only against fast fallers.

as far as the lucario MU im really not sure, just cuz i know absolutely NO good lucarios that no how to use even the slightest inkling of him.. but that aside, ur up b seems like it would play out very well to ur advantage in this MU, and you can get some insane bucket charge from him. he falls fairly fast so u can combo him pretty well. im not sure how well his baiting and punishing works against GW, but lucarios baiting game is pretty nasty in general, and i would think hes got enough tools to get in on GWs face a good portion of the time. i cant give a great estimate on this one unfortunatly, i just have too little MU experience vs lucario, but id say that he probably doesnt give GW that hard of time, at least not like marth ike wario and DDD do.

 

[i1y]

Hmm, I see. I'll try to adapt more to the grab game... I'm not used to grabbing opponents, a bad habit since I played Yoshi for most of my years in smash. (His tongue was so slooooow) >_>

I play a friend who uses Lucario frequently and is quite good with him, hence the question. Maybe I'll record a video of one of our matches. Maybe.

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah i would definitely try to set up for grabs. like landing grabs off of a dair on a grounded opponent is easy, and u can use them in conjunction with WDs to get the maximum range. so yeah work with it ahah. if u are able to post a video theres plenty of people in the thread that would be willing to help. its all constructive here no judgements on skill at all haha

 

[KayB]

Marth vs G&W? All Marth needs to do is f-smash you. I'm serious.

 

[Juushichi]

Uh... no.

Grab and DD alone do wonders to **** up GnW's game. Marth doesn't beat you with just one move, but it sure as hell seems like it with the sheer amount of control he has.

 

[Metmetm3t]

While CCing is effective to some extent it doesn't really bring G&W up to par with all the tools of Marth. It's only effective if Marth goes for a head-on approach. You can only somewhat use it on reaction because a cross-up is going to intentionally look the same (WDing is an option but it only resets the situation). Marth can still grab G&W too, Crouching takes away his max range grab, but that's only a deterrent. It's also obviously only effective until ~50% AND It's not good when G&W is behind AND It's not going to get G&W any kills.

Like I said CCing is a good tool and has it's use but to quote Juu "Marth doesn't beat you with just one move." Marth is faster than G&W and could just as well run and zone the whole match. One of G&W's biggest weaknesses is the amount of time you have to commit to any of his moves, and it's never more apparent than in this matchup where Marth is basically free to swing wildly in your general direction while you try to get in.

 

[Needle of Juntah]

Get someone in Michigan to come play with me I live in Rochester and ill show you guys how to play if we can get some matches recorded *i have a camera

 

[Juushichi]

Come down to Ohio or get Juggledude to run tournaments at AA, I'll come up and play. I like the GnW ditto.

 

[Needle of Juntah]

My situation is sorta ****ed right now... I could really only play with someone who would come to my apartment or come get me for a tournament, ive never played PM but i think i could easily make grand finals in this state as long as M2K or someone ridiculous doesnt show up. Ive been having dreams about GW in PM since before brawl was out.... it all is starting to make sense now.

 

[Oracle]

this new forum is confusing lol

 

[Dakpo]

Well, it looks like I'm going to start taking PM a lot more seriously now. It's incredibly fun and I want to be good at it. I can contend with top levels players in Brawl, so I have the mindset to be good. I just have to learn all this crazy melee stuff lol.

Also, I have been reading a lot of what you guys are saying about certain match-ups, mostly marth, and I have extremely different views on ALMOST all the match ups. Ill start typing up my opinions and Idea when I get a bit more rest.

 

[Juushichi]

Good, Dakpo! Glad to have you aboard.

I should have a few videos of myself up from this last weekend. To reiterate from another thread, I placed 7th in Singles at RAIN 2... which positively is my second top-8 finish... but unfortunately, I didn't do as well as I had hoped. I was one of the stronger seeds (2nd), but ultimately lost to 3rd place finisher R000ster (ZSS/Snake/DDD) and 5th place finisher Master WGS (Lucas).

I played GnW in my R2 match (got a bye) against MX (Bowser/Ivysuar) after losing Game 1 with TL and won 2-1 in close games, then lost 0-2 against Rooster (ZSS/DDD) on Dreamland 64 and Fountain of Dreams respectively. I didn't feel like I did all that bad in this set. I will admit that I was a little fatigued after a 15-game, 3 set (WF/GF/GF2) doubles pairing vs Overswarm and Fizzle, but I was outplayed for sure.

I then played Achilles's Marth, but I haven't been all that comfortable/confident in the MU, so I switched to ROB and won a really fun 2-1 set to advance to play Master WGS. I got behind pretty early game 1 on Smashville with GnW and couldn't get it back, lost pretty handily. Switched to Marth on Fountain of Dreams and lost game 2, ending my run.

In doubles, I played mostly GnW vs Lumi/Tako (2-0) and switched off of TL to play against Carls (Wario - 5th) and Soulpech (Jigglypuff - 13th) and won a very closely contested 2-1 set (It's cut at the very end so here is part two). My teammate was HankyPanky (Peach). I played one game of 'Watch in WF vs OS and Fizzle, but it didn't go very well and went to TL for the rest of the set. I didn't play any 'Watch in either GF sets.

 

[dettadeus]

I feel like it's generally not a good idea to switch to a commonly used character when you're really good at very uncommon characters. It's a lot easier to win a matchup when you're doing everything right and your opponent has no idea what moves to use, how to DI or space, etc.
It's the main reason I don't play Jigglypuff in P:M.

 

[Juushichi]

Doubles set vs Carls and Pech is up.

 

[Oracle]

how the hell did you live to 180 with game and watch lol

Good stuff in general, but there were a few thinks your game was lacking
- More nair! Especially against air based characters, you can throw out full hop nairs or DJ nairs and try to frame trap them. The range is huge, so you can pretty much beat out all of their moves
- where is the bacon? Once again, against air based characters like puff and wario this is very important. You control a lot of air space with full hop triple bacon and sh double bacon, so its even viable just to do a couple of those then go help your teammate if you're separated
- Hammer! side b is probably game and watch's best move, you need to incorporate that nonsense into your game.

A couple of team specifc things I noticed
- use bucket to stall for recovery. Especially with a peach teammate, you can stall until she can free up the ledge for you
- if you have an opponent grabbed and your teammate is free, but you need to throw before the opponent gets out, just dthrow. You simply cover tech in place and tech away, while your partner forces them not to tech the other direction.

 

[Juushichi]

I have pro DI.

I've actually been looking into using more nair, but because I haven't been toying around with it much I didn't want to accidentally hit Hanky with it (and I actually did one or two time sin the set). I'm more comfortable with bacon, but again since I wanted to support Hanky I didn't want him to get hit by it in pressure situations, much like the last game.

I always gingerly look at hammer, but you're right. I need to use more hammer.

I actually bucket stall a lot in singles (especially to turn around and try to cover myself with nair, bair), it must have slipped my mind. And yeah, the grab game was clunky, lol.

Thank you for the critique!

And yes, I probably should not have switched to Marth. I felt like I could up the movement pace and force mistakes out of him (which I did after I was two stocks down), but I was not in the right mindset for it, I suppose.

 

[Oracle]

With bacon in teams, you can use it effectively both approaching and with your back to the teammate. If you put yourself between one opponent and your teammate, you can either throw bacon at the opponent, which slows them down and allows your partner to continue comboing or w/e, or you can space it between you and the partner which cuts off one of your opponent's escape options.

As far as hammer, the expected return at low percent is generally higher than all of your other moves, but goes down as your opponent's percent gets closer to kill percent. You can also use it to pressure shields because spaced correctly its pretty safe, and five will often shield poke, 9 and 8 will do a bunch of shield damage, 7 will still spawn the apple if blocked, and of course the 3.

 

[Zef]

ive been playing gnw for 2 days straight and hes sooo fun

i recorded so many shieldbreaks and 9 combos i love it

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

ftilt is awesome vs marth.

 

[Dakpo]

Here are some recent Vids
Advice please
Awestin (Ness) vs Dakpo (G&W)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zDXpBxtl6s&list=UU7gADQ4iZXINpfYf-vjBH3w&index=9
BR7: Disco (Diddy) vs Dakpo (G&W)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMfFbp04CN4&list=UU7gADQ4iZXINpfYf-vjBH3w&index=6
BR7: Dakpo (G&W) vs Sethlon (Marth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRSiQHZIH68&list=UU7gADQ4iZXINpfYf-vjBH3w&index=12

 

[dettadeus]

Specifically for the Ness MU, if he's offstage with no double jump, literally follow him and open your bucket so that you're between him and the stage (but slightly above him as well). He won't be able to hit you with any of his aerials, and he'll either fall to his death (at which point you can just recover) or he'll try to use PK Thunder which will then get bucketed and he'll die anyways. There were a lot of points in your match vs Awestin in which you could've taken his stock by bucketing his Thunder but opted instead to simply wait on stage. This applies to the Lucas MU as well, although Lucas can also Airdodge > Zair to recover at certain distances.
Fsmash and Ftilt (and at some angles/heights, Dtilt) should be able to knock Ness out of PKT2 if he hurtles towards you.

Keep in mind that your aerials have good amount of startup (except Uair) and last for a very long time (again, except Uair), so if you're trying to defend yourself on your way down, start the move early. In general I would suggest using UpB to get away and out of a juggle then fall down with a Bair, which has ridiculous range and lasts a long time, rather than just trying to hit the other person with Dair.

On stages with slopes (like Skyloft) take control of the lower side, crouch, and then Dtilt/Ftilt any and all SH approaches. If they go over you, you can UpB to escape generally, or wavedash out of the way.

If you want to take your time getting off the ledge, Ledgehop Single Bacon is really annoying to deal with since it covers the ledge with a hitbox and tosses a projectile out.

Against Diddy I would probably take control of one of his bananas then spam SH Double Bacon to kill all his approach options. Keep in mind you can wavedash over bananas to pick them up. Counterpick to small stages with a lot of platforms (Fountain of Dreams appears to be the general G&W favorite, if he bans that then I would go WarioWare or possibly Metal Cavern to abuse the slopes, although MC has massive blastlines).
I would also definitely recover low more often than not. It's better to UpB to the ledge and have a really dumb hitbox covering you than DJ to the edge and have no hitbox.

Follow up Uthrows with UpB for a faster followup than just DJ'ing to them (at higher percents, at least).

Also, don't be afraid to combo into Hammer. Between 40 and 70 percent on most characters, there's a good chance that the reward you get off it is higher than comboing into Nair (4, 6, 7, and 9)

In general you just need to work on fundamentals and knowing what can combo into what, how much of a window you have to make your next hit, etc. I saw a lot of your combos dropped even though you used the right move for the situation, it's just that you waited a bit too long to do it. Your UpB combos are solid though.

 

[Dakpo]

Wow! Thanks for all the advice.
The only thing that really didn't settle well is how to deal with bananas and using the bucket to steal ness' up B. If I hold a banana and try to bacon spam then he simply throws the other banana for a free hit. Also peanut gun is actually really good in this game. Diddys banana game is going to be hard to deal with. Also... Also, his side B wrecks bacon
You shouldn't underestimate PKT. I have to wait to see where he's going before I can attempt to go out there. And if I try to go out there too early, then it's a lot of commitment. And it's really easy to get wrecked if you over commit off stage.

 

[Nahpro]

Hey Dakpo, just wanted to say that I liked a lot of what you were doing in those matches but I really want to see you play with G&W's recovery a little more. Recovering high can be a little risky sometimes (although I didn't see any glaring examples where it screwed you over) and I felt that you were neglecting the incredibly safe low option. G&W's up+b has a disgusting sweetspot range (go ahead and play around with it in training mode if you don't believe me) so when going low, you can threaten a late up+b and catch the ledge if the opponent stays on stage or if they ledge hog, you can either delay by using your second jump to waste the opponent's invincibility and then hit him with the up+b hitbox or you can u+b early and use your second jump if necessary to get back on stage.

Also, try going off stage more maybe. Parachute is one of the easiest off stage gimp moves in the game and with up+b you can get back easily within reason. Anyway, good stuff and keep repping G&W. He really needs it.

Edit: Although now that I think about it, it's not really safe to edgeguard diddy like that, at least not when he is charging. His up+b feels like it has a disjoint or just really high priority but you might be able to force a premature up+b. You've got a small window with Ness but the punishment for failure could be pretty high so overall I guess it's not really fair of me to tell you to edgeguard more aggressively considering your matchups.

-Nap

 

[Metmetm3t]

I definitely echo the sentiment that Diddy can't just be spammed out. Between Side-B, B, and bananas there is no way G&W can handle any attempt to out-camp Diddy, and any time he is around two bananas it's a trap waiting to be sprung. The only effective approach that I can see working is to keep very mobile and force him to do the same. The less free hits and gimmick setups you let him get the better chance G&W can get in a do damage.

 

[Dakpo]

Lol any marth advice ?

 

[Dakpo]

Lol any marth advice ?

 

[dettadeus]

There are generally two ways to go about the Marth MU:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEID39E-UdE

or pick a different character. It's just a garbage MU for G&W. ;c

ROB does pretty well against Marth these days.

 

[Juushichi]

I would say pick a different character, lol.

I picked up ROB in 2.1 and continue to play him in 2.5. He's what I use vs. Marth.

Also, should we have a GnW meta discussion Skype group?