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Tier List Speculation

Pwnz0rz Man

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yeah his oos sucks. One frame up b is way too slow we need like half a frame startup
His OOS is offensively lacking, and unless he has a high platform directly above him it's defensively lacking too. It's not about it being fast, it's that it's not safe most of the time to just throw it out and it doesn't grant him the ability to start an attack,
 

BJN39

Smash Data Ranger
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Yoooo, Sanae is mid-tier now. The other four are pretty ****ed though.

Actually they aren't even that ****ed; Cirno and Meiling go even with Patchy, Remi, and Marisa. Their just all pretty ****ed by the top and upper-mid tier characters.

Agreed on Squirtle. The unfortunate thing is I can't see any design for this character being anything but either really obnoxiously good or laughably bad. See also: Sonic.
Yooo, sanae is. I agree. She still just has one of the worst movesets. I cheer for her though.

Also, remember before 2.5 was announced and we were all speculating on squirtle and ZSS being good?
*sigh*
 

SpiderMad

Smash Master
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Messages
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As of 1/3/13:

Credit to MCO for averaging.
Is this list including people's "tier lists" added to the average prior to 2.5? Has somebody made an easy web program or something for us to make our own list super quick? Like drag and drop easy lol, I'm sure there has to be some sort of customizable drag n drop template thing out there.

I completely forgot Pikachu even exists in this game since.. I don't even know. I think he's low tier and not mid according to the Averaged tier list. The last I remember seeing him played was in 2.1 videos of Axe vs Silly Kyle (Peach) and Silly Kyle usually ended up winning. Then there's apparently some brawl guy "Mr.L" or something who plays with a Wiimote and wins vs a bunch of noob Canadians or something, and I think that's about it for Pikachu players.

I remember in Smashmods "Bamesy" was like "Pikachu's gonna advance in the metagame to become #1 because of his QAC stuff!"; he got a hold of some of the most lavatory bath salts ever made (I still like Bamesy though, he's apparently no where to be seen on smashboards).

http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4068-post-99522.html#pid99522
http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4068-post-83514.html#pid83514

I think people don't realize he was like the 2nd ICG of Smashmods, in the sense that he created super crazy and wonderful ICG'esque posts especially towards the end.

http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-6003-post-126909.html#pid126909
 

JTsm

Smash Master
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Messages
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I still think it's too early to make a tierlist. Some characters still need work and 6 more characters still need to be released. But tier list speculations are too fun for people. lol
 

TheReflexWonder

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Speculation just implies "in my experience, this is what I imagine these characters to be, as far as goodness is concerned." That's why a lot of people have a tier for characters they have no idea about.
 

OkamiBW

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Is this list including people's "tier lists" added to the average prior to 2.5? Has somebody made an easy web program or something for us to make our own list super quick? Like drag and drop easy lol, I'm sure there has to be some sort of customizable drag n drop template thing out there.

I completely forgot Pikachu even exists in this game since.. I don't even know. I think he's low tier and not mid according to the Averaged tier list. The last I remember seeing him played was in 2.1 videos of Axe vs Silly Kyle (Peach) and Silly Kyle usually ended up winning. Then there's apparently some brawl guy "Mr.L" or something who plays with a Wiimote and wins vs a bunch of noob Canadians or something, and I think that's about it for Pikachu players.

I remember in Smashmods "Bamesy" was like "Pikachu's gonna advance in the metagame to become #1 because of his QAC stuff!"; he got a hold of some of the most lavatory bath salts ever made (I still like Bamesy though, he's apparently no where to be seen on smashboards).

http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4068-post-99522.html#pid99522
http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4068-post-83514.html#pid83514

I think people don't realize he was like the 2nd ICG of Smashmods, in the sense that he created super crazy and wonderful ICG'esque posts especially towards the end.

http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-6003-post-126909.html#pid126909
No, the tier list average is only for 2.5. No 2.1 data was harmed in the making of this production.
 

BTmoney

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Bowser is good/great imo. Most improved easily. I thought he'd have trouble dealing with falco specifically due to his size but his ability to CC lasers is so good. Up B OoS is as good as ever and getting to the ledge with it is also easier now.
 

Gimpyfish62

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i'm just here to say

in case i haven't already

i think bowser is one of the worst characters in this game in top level play

but before top level play

i think he's clearly the best

lol

these are not new thoughts
 

Archangel

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i'm just here to say

in case i haven't already

i think bowser is one of the worst characters in this game in top level play

but before top level play

i think he's clearly the best

lol

these are not new thoughts

Everyone things their character is bad....Even if they are bad

Seriously though I don't think bowser can ever be called on of the worst characters in the game in 2.5. Not unless all Small/Mid-sized stages are banned and you only play against a select group of characters who can make a fool of bowser on a giant stage. In that case then yeah bowser is pretty ****ing awful.

Btw Pit is one of the worst characters in the game.
 

Spiffykins

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Dec 31, 2012
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547
i'm just here to say

in case i haven't already

i think bowser is one of the worst characters in this game in top level play

but before top level play

i think he's clearly the best

lol

these are not new thoughts
How do you explain your success with Bowser? Matchup inexperience? Being god? Everyone else are just scrubs? The way I see it, Bowser has already proven himself in top level play. When more people adapt to the matchup I won't be surprised if he takes a slight drop, but the idea that he's one of the worst is hard to swallow.
 

Tero.

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Im pretty sure Pit is one of the best characters in 2.5 (to be more precise: he excels in almost all aspects of the game, since he has good combos, a good grab game, a good recovery combined with good edge guarding abilities, way too good killing moves as of usmash and upb from dthrow and is also relatively fast and not so easy to combo)

Bowser on the other hand is still slow, a huge target and combo food. I also think he is very vulnerable for grabs.
Maybe I'm biased on him because I play Sonic and Diddy which can both shut him down quite well and have excellent grab follow ups (sonic of dthrow/uthrow and diddy of his side b grab)

whatever im just some random guy from europe...
 

Pwnz0rz Man

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Does everyone really think their character is bad? I use Mario, Lucario, Pit, Sonic, and Ness and out of all of those, only Ness I would consider below average compared to the rest of the cast. Ness isn't terrible, mind you, just not as good as most of the rest mid-tier and above which could be considered average.

I try to use GnW, but he feels lacking even compared to Ness, so I haven't yet been able to consider him one of my characters.
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
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I assume his comment was satirical. A lot of the smash community do feel that way about their character.
 

Archangel

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Im pretty sure Pit is one of the best characters in 2.5 (to be more precise: he excels in almost all aspects of the game, since he has good combos, a good grab game, a good recovery combined with good edge guarding abilities, way too good killing moves as of usmash and upb from dthrow and is also relatively fast and not so easy to combo)

Bowser on the other hand is still slow, a huge target and combo food. I also think he is very vulnerable for grabs.
Maybe I'm biased on him because I play Sonic and Diddy which can both shut him down quite well and have excellent grab follow ups (sonic of dthrow/uthrow and diddy of his side b grab)

whatever im just some random guy from europe...
Do they have Sarcasm or humor of any kind in Eurape?

Edit: See! Jolteon got it!

If no then I'll point out that I spelled Europe as Eurape on purpose so you don't call me a stupid american. ;)

Does everyone really think their character is bad? I use Mario, Lucario, Pit, Sonic, and Ness and out of all of those, only Ness I would consider below average compared to the rest of the cast. Ness isn't terrible, mind you, just not as good as most of the rest mid-tier and above which could be considered average.

I try to use GnW, but he feels lacking even compared to Ness, so I haven't yet been able to consider him one of my characters.
When you settle on a Main, Play them 90-100% of the time against multiple levels of competition for years. Yes, you will think your character is bad or at least put tons of stress on their weaknesses that you've had years to observe while ignoring and downplaying their strengths for 3 possible reasons.

1. You are pessimistic by nature and extremely analytical as well. This makes it so you genuinely don't see the strengths of your character and how to use them as much as you see your vulnerabilities and how easily they can be exploited.

2. You want to downplay your character in order to pass yourself off as an intellectually superior player. drop a few quotes from original thinker novels and people start believing you. What's worse...you start to believe it yourself.

3. Both
 

TheReflexWonder

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How do you explain your success with Bowser? Matchup inexperience? Being god? Everyone else are just scrubs? The way I see it, Bowser has already proven himself in top level play. When more people adapt to the matchup I won't be surprised if he takes a slight drop, but the idea that he's one of the worst is hard to swallow.
Actually, most of those answers work. The game is barely three months old, and most people who play it still primarily focus on another Smash game. I find myself having to learn matchups on the fly at tournaments all the time because I don't have enough people or experience to play against anywhere close to 32 different characters in friendlies at home, much less making the most of the plethora of stages. Also, since the game is really young, a lot of stuff isn't getting used. Everyone just wants to move forward and try to do new, damaging combos, etc., so few people are actively trying to camp as it is. When we say "top-level play," we think "people using all their tools," and that's simply not what we see, even among people winning tournaments, because very few people (if any) truly "understand" their character yet, mostly because they haven't had much time to experiment.

Mobility is still -really- strong in this game, though the disparity between characters isn't as huge as it is in Melee. A good comparison would be Brawl G&W. In the first half-year or so, people though he was top 5-worthy because of his huge hitboxes, crazy damage/knockback, and ability to make himself safe. As time went on, people realized they didn't have to approach him, that his multi-hit attacks could be SDI'd easily, and that his KO moves are difficult to land if you stay in certain positions. I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment that Bowser is at the bottom, but I definitely think he's on the lower end of the list. He just has a bunch of traits that are difficult to get used to and that are very powerful against people who don't know how to adapt to them.
 

Professor Pro

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I wish there was like a list of everyone who is currently the best with certain characters and they had vids up.

Would be good to see and perhaps help people make a more evidence based tier list.
All I really know is

Charizard - Metroid
Wario - TheReflexWonder
Bowser - Gimpyfish
DK - StrongBad
R.O.B - Oracle, JCaesar
Snake - I would put myself
Sonic - Sethlon

Everythingelse after is a blur
 

Translucent

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Messages
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I wish there was a "best" squirtle that would be able to put videos up. The closest to that right now is Professor Pro on Jolteon's stream, but he doesn't really main him.
 

Professor Pro

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I wish there was a "best" squirtle that would be able to put videos up. The closest to that right now is Professor Pro on Jolteon's stream, but he doesn't really main him.
I don't think the list would have to only include who they main, because some people play multiple characters and it would just limit the list.

And I think I might start playing Squirtle a bit more so hopefully I get better qualities vids up lol, but Jolteon can upload some of the current Squirtle vids.
 

Kink-Link5

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Someone ought to use him at the least. Like Day one and pre-release Squirtle looked to have all this potential with giant bubble RAR spacing and Sonic-level noncommitted approaches, but trying it out first hand and most anecdotal evidence seems to indicate he's super open to anything on whiff and that his obtusely large SH is a severe detriment. He's possibly the only character baring maybe Zelda that can't empty SH grab.
 

DMG

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Every time I end up using Squirtle, I get sad.
We sowwie Reflex!

Someone ought to use him at the least. Like Day one and pre-release Squirtle looked to have all this potential with giant bubble RAR spacing and Sonic-level noncommitted approaches, but trying it out first hand and most anecdotal evidence seems to indicate he's super open to anything on whiff and that his obtusely large SH is a severe detriment. He's possibly the only character baring maybe Zelda that can't empty SH grab.
Tying this in to my thoughts, Squirtle has a very hard time approaching certain short characters, because you have to fall with aerials to hit them. Like trying to SH + quick aerial against a character Diddy or shorter you might as well tear your hair out lol. A few things feel out of place as well: Bair lingers for a good period of time but it also feels like there's a huge additional window after the move is "done" that if you land you will get the full landing lag. I'd even take the move being shortened if it meant he could land easier with it. Dair multi hits occur way too quickly, a Mario-esque approach would be better (but still keep the properties of the move near the end that pop people up, that's still really good).

I would overhaul how Down B interacts, I think the move is basically worthless besides edge guarding. The tripping mechanic works out poorly for Squirtle if the opponent knows his full blown teching options (the teching window feels large), and it's already currently aimed at being a special gimping move. Look at the grounded version, after someone eats it and techs away. Near worthless. I'd have Squirtle's initial Side B use (maybe ground only) kinda burst/dash him forward a good distance before reverting to the original speed we currently have. Squirtle is poor at getting inside because he tends to travel at the same speed regardless, so the only checks you mentally have to make are for mixups like wave dashing. If he approaches with Side B or from the air, there's not a huge difference in travel time and half of the time you will swat him out of his option even if you technically guessed a bit wrong.

Given a poor grab range, awkward aerials for shield pressure + not many strong grounded shield pressure moves, it skews the RPS game outside of Squirtle's favor. He not only is lackluster at really getting around shields or whittling them down, but he also doesn't have a great way to get inside or pin someone down. Having solid mobility or hitboxes are huge hurdles for him to deal with.

His throw game is lackluster overall: you can name multiple characters who can effortlessly CG Spacies, but Squirtle's Uthrow CG/Regrab game is pathetic. The move has too much end lag/not enough time for Squirtle to use the throw and then get a meaningful followup a lot of times. Compounded into this, his mobility/sliding (noticeably out of Wavedash if you grab out of it) limits his options if he is forced to throw on the fly. If Squirtle is moving forward and does Uthrow, the opponent can take advantage of this with DI behind him to ruin his followups. Not many other characters have that kind of issue, and even Luigi gets a noticeable chunk of time to get a followup. There's no real reason people like Ike Marth Mario Fox Ness Sonic etc etc should have the super free Uthrow or Dthrow options for comboing, and someone like Squirtle kinda gets shafted lol. His Dthrow is literally the only redeeming throw, and strictly for killing! That should change, make his Uthrow better.


Kill power wise, you basically have Usmash and Dthrow. Killing with anything else usually means you got a Bubble Beam Gimp: it's extremely rare to kill with Fsmash Dsmash. This limits Squirtle, especially for being a lower range character.
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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I wish there was like a list of everyone who is currently the best with certain characters and they had vids up.

Would be good to see and perhaps help people make a more evidence based tier list.
All I really know is

Charizard - Metroid
Wario - TheReflexWonder
Bowser - Gimpyfish
DK - StrongBad
R.O.B - Oracle, JCaesar
Snake - I would put myself
Sonic - Sethlon

Everythingelse after is a blur

This is hard though because regional skill differences aren't quite clear yet. I guess it's not too hard to see who the more proficient players of their characters are though.
 

TheReflexWonder

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For all it's worth, Squirtle's Forward-B having a "dive kick" element to it makes it pretty cool for tricky approaches out of runjumps and dashdances, etc.
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
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I think Zhime might clearly be the best solo Zelda. Not just because people don't play Zelda, but because he's very good.

Not sure if we really have champions for other characters yet (that weren't already for them in Melee). Maybe Silentwolf for Wolf, as well?
 

Translucent

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Silent Wolf is extremely good with Wolf, but I also remember Chillin doing well with him.
 

Archangel

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I wish there was like a list of everyone who is currently the best with certain characters and they had vids up.

Would be good to see and perhaps help people make a more evidence based tier list.
All I really know is

Charizard - Metroid
Wario - TheReflexWonder
Bowser - Gimpyfish
DK - StrongBad
R.O.B - Oracle, JCaesar
Snake - I would put myself
Sonic - Sethlon

Everythingelse after is a blur
Pit - Archangel :D

nah but Even alot of this is up for debate. I'd say Wario, DK, Snake, are pretty much a given.

Metroid might be the best Zard in the US but you guy should see some of the Japanese vids....like...wtf Zard stuff.
Also Gimpy is still the most famous bowser but there are at least 6 good bowsers going around and he's 1 of them. Sonic is also open for debate. ROB...only Oracle and JC really play rob lol.

Then of course from there everyone's kind of a blur. We can't start talking seriously about who's better than who without multiple national/international tournaments.

so yeah....someone host some nationals?
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
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Differences in regional strength definitely need some clarifying in order to tell who is the best with X character.
 

Professor Pro

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I should have clarified myself better lol :(

I didn't LITERALLY mean which person is best with a certain character, several people could go in one character slot 'Rob - JCaesar, Oracle'
but I meant it would just be good to see a list of names with vids next to them of people who currently play a certain character the most effectively.

A list like this with EVERY character in the game would be super helpful for everyone imo and I would be able to learn more from everyone

If we can get a little list going then maybe we can start a new thread and get some vids attached to help everyone :bee:

So add if you think someone is deserving of this list (Melee Top Tiers Banned cos no-one needs to see them lol)

Ganon -
Mario -
Pikachu
DK - StrongBad
Luigi -
Link - Hylian
Zelda -
Bowser - Gimpyfish, Kirk
Ness -
Snake - Professor Pro
Diddy Kong -
Wario - TheReflexWonder
D3 - Fly Amanita
Lucario - Fuzzyness
ZSS -
Toon Link - Jolteon
R.O.B - Oracle, JCaesar
Pit - Archangel
Wolf - Silent Wolf
Sonic - Sethlon, Wizzrobe
Ike -
Charizard - Metroid
Squirtle -
Ivysaur -
Lucas -
G&W - Dakpo
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
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Messages
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This is a pointless discussion anyway (at least at the moment)

What we really should be looking for is to get more videos and to learn more about the characters like how moves strings together and what broken stuff there is that should be removed. Also please do not cripple chars with the nerf hammer like you did with lucario.

@archangel i got your sarcasm. I just wanted to use the chance to say that i think Pit is Top Tier and Bowser still bad and will always be

@prof: add wizzrobe to Sonic and silent wolf to wolf
 

Oracle

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> implying jcaesar is as good as I am

You forgot g&w on that list (best is dakpo btw)

I like how dfw can probably claim the most spots on that list

Edit: > implying wizzrobe is as good as sethlon
 
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