Tier List Speculation

[#HBC | Joker]

I used to play Lucario in 2.1, and since 2.5 came out I really haven't put much time into him cuz Wario became useable. I've recently started trying to pick him up again, and now I understand why Lucario mains were so butthurt. He just... feels like he's terrible now. I know the fact that I need to relearn him probably has lot to do with it, and relearning him is hard because I still try to do 2.1 things with him out of habit, but goddamn. In 2.1 he was top tier imo, but I feel like he's pretty average now. Maybe my opinion will change when I learn 2.5 stuffs. Breaking old habits is hard though, it's not the same as switching from Brawl lucario to PM lucario. It's much more subtle and it's messing with my head.

 

[Archangel]

I used to play Lucario in 2.1, and since 2.5 came out I really haven't put much time into him cuz Wario became useable. I've recently started trying to pick him up again, and now I understand why Lucario mains were so butthurt. He just... feels like he's terrible now. I know the fact that I need to relearn him probably has lot to do with it, and relearning him is hard because I still try to do 2.1 things with him out of habit, but goddamn. In 2.1 he was top tier imo, but I feel like he's pretty average now. Maybe my opinion will change when I learn 2.5 stuffs. Breaking old habits is hard though, it's not the same as switching from Brawl lucario to PM lucario. It's much more subtle and it's messing with my head.

I already stated this once before. I felt that there was potentially a need to nerf him, Ike, and Sonic but I was against doing it so soon. The philosophy of not nerfing top melee characters should be extended to the whole cast. Anyone who ends up being S-tier should not have been changed until the balancing phase. Simply because...once characters reach S-tier level and get swatted down because they aren't Melee's Original top tiers...it becomes harder to defend the idea of not swatting them down as well....it just creates so many more issues.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I really don't see how there could have been a need to nerf him. It's not like there were lucarios winning all the tourneys or anything, lucario players are actually pretty rare. The reason they "nerfed" him was because they didn't like his design, which I suppose is fair. Problem is that now he's just... not very good. In order to fall in with this new design, he's probably gonna need a few buffs to make him good. Not necessarily saying they should just revert him back to 2.1 either. I just feel like his inability to be as safe as he used to, combined with the fact that he relies on doing long strings of lower damaging moves, is hurting him. He can't consistently get those long strings because he can't even get in, and then when he finally gets in, he basically combos as well as most of the cast instead of better, but he's got a ****tier shield and moves that do less damage.

 

[Archangel]

I really don't see how there could have been a need to nerf him. It's not like there were lucarios winning all the tourneys or anything, lucario players are actually pretty rare. The reason they "nerfed" him was because they didn't like his design, which I suppose is fair. Problem is that now he's just... not very good. In order to fall in with this new design, he's probably gonna need a few buffs to make him good. Not necessarily saying they should just revert him back to 2.1 either. I just feel like his inability to be as safe as he used to, combined with the fact that he relies on doing long strings of lower damaging moves, is hurting him. He can't consistently get those long strings because he can't even get in, and then when he finally gets in, he basically combos as well as most of the cast instead of better, but he's got a ****tier shield and moves that do less damage.

Not in the US but Lucario was placing very well in Europe and Canada top 1-5 always. Even towards the very end of 2.1 Lucario's started to get top placings in the US. It was only a matter of tick-tocks bro.

Still, They didn't have to do him THAT dirty...it's just ****ed up.

 

[The_NZA]

Maybe I don't play good lucario's, but when I get into a hit string against him, he usually still leaves me with an amazing amount of damage in a short time. He's got pretty good kill moves, a strong projectile. Whats there to hate?

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Ike feels better to me in 2.5 than he did in 2.1 honestly. I like that he's not mindnumbingly easy to play anymore and he just feels more intuitive. It's not about how good he was, it was the design more-so.

Lucario I still feel is pretty good, but kind of feels like a one trick pony(press b after everything).

Oh I'm not saying he didn't need to be re-designed, cause he did, I think they just toned him down too much in the process of it

Like, did his F-air need reduced range AND power(in the sense that only the hilt has the power now)?

 

[BJN39]

Oh I'm not saying he didn't need to be re-designed, cause he did, I think they just toned him down too much in the process of it

Like, did his F-air need reduced range AND power(in the sense that only the hilt has the power now)?

Don't forget, it's startup is one frame longer too!

 

[Mithost]

It was kinda annoying when you would shield lucario's jab combo/dash attack and instantly grabbed via sideB. I don't know how feasible punishing lucario's hits were seeing he would keep a combo going if you spot dodged and he would get a free sideB if you put out your shield. It reminded me a lot like ICs, minus the difficulty in actually landing the first hit. I do agree that he got TOO nerfed though.

 

[Deleted member]

as far as i can tell, lucario is a pretty popular character all-around. that said, he's also fine as is IMO in terms of goodness. the character still has a lot to work with and reflects his player's ability very well.

 

[Spiffykins]

I appreciate the attempt to make Lucario more of an actual character than a cheat code for winning, but I can't say I'm fine with him as is. I've looked through the changelist several times and there's too much there that I don't agree with.

But aside from all that, I think the more important problem is that the OHC mechanic treats shields and hurtboxes the same way. A fast side-b/down-b becomes a problem when used against shields (2.1), while a slow side-b/down-b becomes ineffectual for kills and combos (2.5). Rather than trying to find a Goldilocks middle ground that will never please everyone, the better (albeit probably harder to code) solution is splitting the two situations by slowing side-b/down-b when cancelled into from hitting a shield and keeping them faster in other situations. Until this happens, I think Lucario is always going to run into problems fitting into the Smash environment.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

That sounds like it'd actually be pretty awesome. I bet it'd be a nightmare to try coding though, cuz I don't think any other move in the game behaves differently when hitting shields as opposed to hitting a hurtbox. At least not in terms of frame data.

 

[leelue]

I'm surprised that people don't seem to mind Aura Sphere Cancelling (mostly because you can cancel the aura sphere itself).

 

[MonkUnit]

ZSS' SideB double hits on shields

 

[Mithost]

If it's hard to code a different OHC behaviour for shields, why not just make the side B never get the grab off on a shield? It's not like it's easier to sideB grab a poorly placed shield compared to a normal grab. It acts like 2.1 if you don't shield, but it acts 2.5ish on shield.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I've been using Lucario a lot more lately than when 2.5 originally came out. He definitely needed to be changed from his 2.1 version where his only strategy was FP after everything. He feels far more rewarding and not anywhere near as nerfed as I felt he was at the start. He still has things about him that I feel aren't really necessary changes, like his up throw changing from a kill starter to a much less useful move, but all in all he feels much more rewarding. He can react and change his combo game and still pull some of the shenanigans he could in 2.1, though it's more difficult.

Ike on the other hand feels very weak now. Before he felt like he was obnoxiously strong, to the point where all you really needed to do was space at range and swing his gigantic hit-boxes at opponents. I've never really been an Ike player, but it seems like his attack speed took a drastic hit. I could be completely wrong, as I don't use him very often though.

Sonic feels great compared to the "Spin to win" variant we had in 2.1. He feels like he can reliably control the stage and Fair you to death once he gets you off. I think it's weird that he can wall jump but cannot Up-B after it if he Up-B'd previously, but I'm a Mario main, so it's probably just me being used to getting away with that. With that said, I don't feel like he's broken or anywhere near as overpowering as it's been said that he is. Much like many of the other newcomers of Project M, he just has a different fighting style so he'll take adjusting and learning how to fight against him. He's solid yet has his own shortcomings, most of his attacks don't carry a high degree of priority and from my experience anyone with a better range can win in most non-spin exchanges if you don't perfectly time his actions. Sonic mains will definitely need to learn to be patient, those who fight him will need to learn to be even more so and to punish him hard when he leaves himself open.

 

[Archangel]

I've been using Lucario a lot more lately than when 2.5 originally came out. He definitely needed to be changed from his 2.1 version where his only strategy was FP after everything. He feels far more rewarding and not anywhere near as nerfed as I felt he was at the start. He still has things about him that I feel aren't really necessary changes, like his up throw changing from a kill starter to a much less useful move, but all in all he feels much more rewarding. He can react and change his combo game and still pull some of the shenanigans he could in 2.1, though it's more difficult.

The thing that feels the most useless to me now is his Down-B. It still has situations when it can be used....but all in all it's just.....I can see him having a different move at this point. Maybe even his original Brawl Down-B.

Ike on the other hand feels very weak now. Before he felt like he was obnoxiously strong, to the point where all you really needed to do was space at range and swing his gigantic hit-boxes at opponents. I've never really been an Ike player, but it seems like his attack speed took a drastic hit. I could be completely wrong, as I don't use him very often though.

His attack speed hasn't changed at all. What you might be noticing is the fact that some of his attacks now have end-lag that keeps him from spamming things like Ftilt.

Sonic feels great compared to the "Spin to win" variant we had in 2.1. He feels like he can reliably control the stage and Fair you to death once he gets you off. I think it's weird that he can wall jump but cannot Up-B after it if he Up-B'd previously, but I'm a Mario main, so it's probably just me being used to getting away with that. With that said, I don't feel like he's broken or anywhere near as overpowering as it's been said that he is. Much like many of the other newcomers of Project M, he just has a different fighting style so he'll take adjusting and learning how to fight against him. He's solid yet has his own shortcomings, most of his attacks don't carry a high degree of priority and from my experience anyone with a better range can win in most non-spin exchanges if you don't perfectly time his actions. Sonic mains will definitely need to learn to be patient, those who fight him will need to learn to be even more so and to punish him hard when he leaves himself open.

Sonic isn't a cheater like he was in 2.1 He was 100% Cheating in 2.1 and thank god not alot of people found out how to be a complete *** like they could have. 2.5 Sonic is beatable by a select group of people so I can't say he's a cheater now. However, I think somethings about his design might need to be looked at again...for example. He can spin over diddy's Bananas without being effected at all....something is seriously wrong with this.

 

[Hashtag]

What other moving B moved are affected by diddy's bananas? I personally don't see a problem with sonics spins not being affected by bananas.

 

[Archangel]

What other moving B moved are affected by diddy's bananas? I personally don't see a problem with sonic spins not being affected by bananas.

I don't think you understand. He rolls right over them without anything happening at all LOL. His spins also clank with everything on the ground which isn't bad or broken at all it just feel kind of....strange. The homing attack especially as an edge guard is really going to make everyone who doesn't have great recovery pissed. Luckily there are very great recoveries in the game atm.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

If I'm not mistaken, using a downb with lucario during your recovery gives him a bit of a boost to the distance he goes, which is often just enough to save your life. What really sucks about it now is the lag that comes with it, so you can't actually use it to dodge through edgeguard attempts. Or for anything at all, outside of increased recovery distance, for that matter.

 

[Archangel]

If I'm not mistaken, using a downb with lucario during your recovery gives him a bit of a boost to the distance he goes, which is often just enough to save your life. What really sucks about it now is the lag that comes with it, so you can't actually use it to dodge through edgeguard attempts. Or for anything at all, outside of increased recovery distance, for that matter.

the lag makes it so that someone could wait out the Down-B and the kill him.

 

[Hashtag]

I don't think you understand. He rolls right over them without anything happening at all LOL. His spins also clank with everything on the ground which isn't bad or broken at all it just feel kind of....strange. The homing attack especially as an edge guard is really going to make everyone who doesn't have great recovery pissed. Luckily there are very great recoveries in the game atm.[/qoute]

Please explain. It makes sense that his spin moved aren't affected to me. What am I not getting?

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

The only thing I find really lacking with Lucario's Down-B is his ability to use it on stage to avoid attacks or follow his opponent after starting a chain. It's got it's use offstage to bring him a decent distance, which is what I try to use it for more than anything. Sometimes you even get a nice distance where you can cancel it into Nair and get a kill off it, though it's not often that it happens for me.

Sonic's supposed to be able to roll right over Diddy's Bananas. It was explained when Diddy was released, Squirtle can do it too with his Side-B. Homing attack is a gamble for Sonic to edge-guard with, depending on who his opponent. It doesn't exactly have the highest priority and when I've done it, it's been beaten by a well timed green missile. (Doesn't help that that missile also misfired) Homing attack is good, but not overpowering. It's certainly not as obnoxious as Pit's arrow spam edge-guarding (Which I also do...ah ha ha)

 

[#HBC | Joker]

if you cancel downb into fsmash or something with aura, you can cheese yourself a free kill occasionally as well. If you try to use more than once every couple fights though, it starts to become incredibly telegraphed. Downb's utility just feels so.. lacking now. Like, the brawl counterattack downb could be used to cheese a KO exactly as often as that, but it didn't require an aura charge. I guess that combined with improved recovery makes it worth having though.

 

[GunBlaze]

So, the fact that from-air-to-ground DT gives more distance than the grounded one is useless now?

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

The thing that feels the most useless to me now is his Down-B. It still has situations when it can be used....but all in all it's just.....I can see him having a different move at this point. Maybe even his original Brawl Down-B.

Yea I haven't found a use for it anywhere anymore

 

[Wizzrobe]

Sonic could spin over Diddy's bananas in Brawl, the PMBR just never realized it/changed it for PM.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

So nothing wrong with what you guys are talking about, but I think its getting a little off topic here. So lets try to get back on track. Here is some videos of squirtle at a recent tournament:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__FxmusBeIM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4Eo9ixqvIM&list=UU7gADQ4iZXINpfYf-vjBH3w&index=15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaSvViD967o&list=UU7gADQ4iZXINpfYf-vjBH3w&index=14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jr8hQ6duV4&list=UU7gADQ4iZXINpfYf-vjBH3w&index=10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi5_-UY0Js8&list=UU7gADQ4iZXINpfYf-vjBH3w&index=11

So from these videos what is your first impression on squirtle? Granted these video aren't really enough evidence to support any legitimate argument of him being a high tier character, but maybe its enough to speculate on a rough placement for him...thoughts?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

guise, dun talk about lucario, it's off topic! now here's some vids of squirtle in the tier list speculation thread.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

dude come on really? You guys have been talking about the lucario nerfs for about a page now. The topic seems to have become a, "2.5 lucario nerf bad" and "potential ideas to change him" discussion. I just posted those videos to show a squirtle in play to actually provide some frame of reference when someone talks about him, and he doesn't get much attention so I figured, "hey squirtle"... so come on guy, cut me some slack....

 

[#HBC | Joker]

if you wanna talk about squirtle, and where you think he could go on the tier list, then go right ahead. That doesn't mean you have to try and tell us not to discuss lucario on the false premise that it's off topic.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Squirtle feels pretty bad from my experiences with him. I could never stand how slippery Luigi was, and Squirtle feels like Luigi with a little more aerial speed and a lot less kill power. I feel disappointed overall with looking forward to a character that seems designed in a way that makes me dislike him. Maybe if Water Gun had more control and better push on it, it wouldn't be as bad as I've heard players say it is.

On the topic of being bad, Zero Suit Samus doesn't seem like she's very useful either, at least in my time playing with and against her. Bad projectile + Slow kill moves + Slow tether throw seems to add up to a character that's all-around mediocre.

Lucario feels fine for the most part. Maybe buff up his Down-B a tiny bit and I think he'll be perfectly fair and fun all at the same time.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

ZSS only seems bad initially. If you spend some time on her, you can actually do pretty well with her. I've actually put in more time trying to not suck with squirtle, and I don't think I've made more than a little progress with him. He's the most SD prone I've ever seen, which says a lot considering Fox is in this game. However, instead of having Fox tools, squirtle has luigi tools with considerably less reach and power. His only saving grace is his downb, which doesn't quite make up for all the other things wrong with him.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So nothing wrong with what you guys are talking about, but I think its getting a little off topic here. So lets try to get back on track. Here is some videos of squirtle at a recent tournament:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__FxmusBeIM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4Eo9ixqvIM&list=UU7gADQ4iZXINpfYf-vjBH3w&index=15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaSvViD967o&list=UU7gADQ4iZXINpfYf-vjBH3w&index=14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jr8hQ6duV4&list=UU7gADQ4iZXINpfYf-vjBH3w&index=10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi5_-UY0Js8&list=UU7gADQ4iZXINpfYf-vjBH3w&index=11

So from these videos what is your first impression on squirtle? Granted these video aren't really enough evidence to support any legitimate argument of him being a high tier character, but maybe its enough to speculate on a rough placement for him...thoughts?

Everybody in that video is playing matchups like they've never encountered them before. Worse still, they aren't even defaulting to their "primary" strategy in most cases. Why is that DK shielding half the time he's on-stage? Why is that Peach not making use of her big hitboxes and low lag to outspace Squirtle? Why is Squirtle just throwing out B-Air and Forward-B expecting it to lead into stuff, and why is that working when pivot grabs or stuff like shuffled N-Air beats them cleanly? Good spacing tools were sorely lacking throughout all of these matches, and I feel that these matches don't really do any of these characters justice as far as potential is concerned. Oracle's R.O.B. and Bwett's Squirtle showed some basic strings their characters are capable of, but as limited in combo potential as Squirtle seems to be, the stuff he does have is really intuitive, so we didn't really learn anything here.

For all it's worth, I think Squirtle is decidedly low tier. Thankfully, he doesn't appear to be heavy on technical skill, but good use of him appears to require a lot of knowledge of the options he has. Eh.

 

[BJN39]

Personally, when I think of 2.5 newcomers, it reminds me of Tasofro making Hisoutensoku, all the newcomers ended up lower tier. Usable, but lower.

Except the PMBR didn't intentionally make their newcomers lack.

So squirtle, yeah I don't think he's very good. He's small, but being small doesn't feel like you're a smaller target in PM. His range is (generally) bad, he's sort of light, (this doesn't really matter to me tho) and for how good his recovery looks, he still misses the ledge and stage often. I guess also having the slippyness of Luigi also means you can't as easily punish attacks on your own shield.

But he can kill/gimp decently, and is quite speedy.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Don't forget, it's startup is one frame longer too!

Missed this, you serious? I really don't think it was a godly-overpowered move to deserve all that nerfing

 

[Kink-Link5]

Personally, when I think of 2.5 newcomers, it reminds me of Tasofro making Hisoutensoku, all the newcomers ended up lower tier. Usable, but lower.

Except the PMBR didn't intentionally make their newcomers lack.

So squirtle, yeah I don't think he's very good. He's small, but being small doesn't feel like you're a smaller target in PM. His range is (generally) bad, he's sort of light, (this doesn't really matter to me tho) and for how good his recovery looks, he still misses the ledge and stage often. I guess also having the slippyness of Luigi also means you can't as easily punish attacks on your own shield.

But he can kill/gimp decently, and is quite speedy.

Yoooo, Sanae is mid-tier now. The other four are pretty ****ed though.

Actually they aren't even that ****ed; Cirno and Meiling go even with Patchy, Remi, and Marisa. Their just all pretty ****ed by the top and upper-mid tier characters.

Agreed on Squirtle. The unfortunate thing is I can't see any design for this character being anything but either really obnoxiously good or laughably bad. See also: Sonic.

 

[CORY]

I'm surprised that people don't seem to mind Aura Sphere Cancelling (mostly because you can cancel the aura sphere itself).

i think asc is like... 18 frames total? maybe only 12... that's still decently long, so it's cute to use, but doesn't necessarily make you safe on shields. it's best for aerial-asc-aerial on mid-ish damage opponents.

 

[Dakpo]

GnW is the absolute worst. He has no kill power, a terrible recovery, not out of shield options. He's slow and get juggled.
We just need to give him a lot of buffs. Then maybe he can compete with the other characters... Yea... Lots of buffs

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

GnW is the absolute worst. He has no kill power, a terrible recovery, not out of shield options. He's slow and get juggled.
We just need to give him a lot of buffs. Then maybe he can compete with the other characters... Yea... Lots of buffs

Are you being sarcastic? I can't actually tell. If not, then you're wrong on a few fronts. GnW is pretty bad, yes, but it has more to do with the options he has at any given time and his lack of ability to force his opponent into a place where he can most advantageously take the lead than he's just lacking in basics.

He's got plenty of kill power, if you can use it appropriately and consistently is a completely different story. Examples of great kill power include Up-Smash, Nair, Side-B (Some of the time), Forward-Smash, Down-Tilt.

His recovery feels much better than it was in 2.1. I don't remember if they increased his range or not, but it's quick, the range is a little better (I think), and it's stall-capable with Bucket if you want to slow down your descent from fast fall. It might not have the simple ease of Mario's recovery where he can come back from just about anywhere as long as he's not too low, but it's not among the worst recoveries for characters in this game. Toon Link clearly has one of the worst and it only becomes average or maybe better when you AGT it.

Yes, his OOS options are very lacking. This is accurate.

He's not slow, but he isn't incredibly quick either. Either way, his movement speed isn't what causes him to be juggled, his fall speed is just perfect to allow someone to tap him into the air and then continue tapping him until he dies.

He probably doesn't need as many buffs as we'd think. I think just these few would give him a drastic change in player perception.
Make his bacon a little more reliable pattern wise, so you could plan in how to use it.
Make his down throw into a tech chase that GW could actually follow or set up with any sort of reliability.
Give him an option to end his hitboxes instead of being forced in a committed position all the time.

I think I talked long enough about GW and what I think is actually wrong with him as a character. If GW can get a little more reliability, I think more players would flock to the best 2-D model in this game.

 

[Oracle]

yeah his oos sucks. One frame up b is way too slow we need like half a frame startup