Tier List Speculation

[Terotrous]

trying to compare single moves in a vacuum is completely useless, because it forgets that a good move is only as good as the moves that can set it up, and follow it up

This is a very important point. Each individual move is only a piece of a bigger picture. For a move to be effective it not only needs to have good properties but the character's toolset needs to support it.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Exactly. Characters have moves that, in a vacuum, are just as imba by themselves as in melee. However, you can't really john about things like peach dsmash being broken on squirtle because squirtle isn't peach just like zelda isn't falcon.

 

[MLGF]

...INB4Shine

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

...INB4Shine

ssshhhhhhh

10shh

 

[Juushichi]

trying to compare single moves in a vacuum is completely useless, because it forgets that a good move is only as good as the moves that can set it up, and follow it up

Canon, I really like your posts. : )

For reference: When people start complaining about Diddy/Lucas/M2/BOOMERANG, while the most obvious or emotional thing is what comes out first, it is usually tied to another thing. This is something that we in the PMBR have to examine before thinking about changing anything--- whether it is a boon or a bane.

I find parts of Diddy Kong to be pretty egregious (my opinion, not PMBR). Fair is lame, fsmash is good, and I don't like being in a Choose Your Own Adventure (dash attack-- you die generally offstage any way you slice it)... but even with this stuff, it's attached to someone that has a great DD, good OoS with a banana or without, an annoying recovery to edgeguard, is very fast, has a move that you can option select with (side b), long distance tech chases/confirms and a good ability to snowball momentum AND the ability to wall and out camp you.

And maaaybe, maybe... just maybe, this character is a bit too good?

It could just be me.

 

[DMG]

If you could not swat Bananas or tech banana trips, I'd agree with that sentiment

 

[Paradoxium]

So does anyone here know how to look at hitboxes and frame data and would like to show me how?

And Diddy Kong is the most annoying character in the game, he is the true secret top tier. I'm starting to really have a problem with that stupid ass monkey

 

[didds]

The problem is, when you just list of all of the benefits in that manner, we could make the same "maybe too good?" argument with a lot of characters. I guess it just comes down to, are we trying to raise the bar to spacie level? Or lower is below spacie level?

I know it's come up a few times, but it seems that this is disagreed on and it's hard to know what to do with the roster as a whole until it's answered.

Do we nerf fox, diddy, lucas, insert potentially too good character? Or do we buff the hell outta the others? The problem is that a lot of characters really need their added "stupid" to compete with the tops. I don't know if this is healthy or if I'd consider Diddy in that much "need", but when we have moves like Usmash on fox or Dair on Falco, the rest need a way to contend.

I think about a character like Squirtle and his side B. I hate the move personally, I just don't like fast moving constant hit boxes that can easily lead into combos without any real technical difficulty, and it has armor. I think the move can be abused a bit, but then I think about how necessary it is to get in on certain characters who can just outzone squirtle. So on one hand I find the move kind of dumb, but on the other, Squirtle would just be that much worse off against someone like fox without it and it being taken away can't be justified while other, just as dumb moves can still exist.

edit: and diddy has weaknesses






he has trouble making friends since he woops so much azzzzzz

 

[Juushichi]

Teching will not always put you into good positions, though DMG. imo, it's still a rather disadvantageous situation.

This character's speed will only make the decision making from there easier. Same thing with swatting etc, the character will only get better @ whiff punishes as the playerbase actually become attuned to it. I think a lot of Diddy players aren't that developed in Smash-goodness atm. There's counterplay, but I think Diddy has a lot of answers.

 

[ELI-mination]

There's nothing wrong with Diddy, you all just suck, truly. Get better

 

[Soft Serve]

There's nothing wrong with Diddy, you all just suck, truly. Get better

Can I sig this? lol.

There are some parts of Diddy that could be removed just because they aren't needed (homing Missiles are completely unnecessary, Fair's angle could be increased llike 5-10 degrees just so people stop whining, etc) But on a whole I feel his whole kit has tons of counterplay and interaction between the players. To me he is a good representation of how new item play mechanics fit perfectly into the smash idea of tons of counterplay and Player-player interaction.

 

[onlywonderboy]

Diddy is pretty frustrating to play against if you're bad, probably doesn't need nerfs though. Reminds me a lot of Ness where PK Fire stomps bad players but good players can deal with it. Diddy isn't quite that binary because he still seems strong even against good players.

 

[Bryonato]

Man people will complain about anything and everything in this game.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Except Ganon's neutral

 

[Praxis]

Canon, I really like your posts. : )

For reference: When people start complaining about Diddy/Lucas/M2/BOOMERANG, while the most obvious or emotional thing is what comes out first, it is usually tied to another thing. This is something that we in the PMBR have to examine before thinking about changing anything--- whether it is a boon or a bane.

I find parts of Diddy Kong to be pretty egregious (my opinion, not PMBR). Fair is lame, fsmash is good, and I don't like being in a Choose Your Own Adventure (dash attack-- you die generally offstage any way you slice it)... but even with this stuff, it's attached to someone that has a great DD, good OoS with a banana or without, an annoying recovery to edgeguard, is very fast, has a move that you can option select with (side b), long distance tech chases/confirms and a good ability to snowball momentum AND the ability to wall and out camp you.

And maaaybe, maybe... just maybe, this character is a bit too good?

It could just be me.

It's just you. Diddy gets combo'd badly as a fastfaller, is actually edgeguarded fairly well once you learn it (there is only a single point in his charge process that can sweetspot the ledge, if you can scare him in to holding his up-B charge past that, you have a guaranteed smash on him because he will pass the stage lip and you can just start charging).

Compare this character to Fox. His fair is good, but less good than upsmash or shine individually.

Compare this character to Marth. His fair is good, but Marth has that stupid grab range, a fair that's just as good if not better, and dat fsmash.

In fact, Diddy has the tools needed to keep up with the Melee greats. He's not quite as good as them but makes up for it with a good recovery. Diddy is a good character designed to keep up with good Melee characters, but he's not better than them. IMO he's right around the #10 spot in the game if you made a tier list (Fox, Falco, Wolf, Marth, Link, Lucario, Mario, Mewtwo, Lucas, and a few others are probably better).

However, the anti-Diddy metagame doesn't exist right now. I see very few people except Mew2King and my practice partner edgeguard Diddy well (they seem to assume I am going to sweetspot even when it's impossible), and very few people use bananas. No one in my region has even used a glide toss against me, and characters like Mewtwo and Marth have insane glide tosses, and Peach probably beats Diddy...

There's no reason to nerf Diddy. He just requires significant mentality changes to fight against (like Jiggs and Peach), and people scream nerf before putting in the time.


If Diddy gets nerfed, he won't be able to compete. He has plenty of flaws and his "stupid stuff" people complain about isn't as good as other top character's good stuff.

 

[G13_Flux]

The other thing to consider is that jiggs isn't exactly destroying half the cast. She has her niche in taking all the fast falling, high speed combo characters in taking then down a peg.. But there's a lot that beat her too. More so than melee.

Edit: didn't see new page, sorry above text is terribly out of place.

Diddy I find a great character. I definitely don't think he's over powered though. He doesn't seem to perform to well against characters that have great aerial games. I would argue that characters like charizard, jiggs, wario, MK, Kirby, and peach could easily contend with diddy, likely having at least an even match up with him. Especially kirby wario and mk. They likely beat him imo.

 

[Deleted member]

i generally agree with the sentiments here, diddy is obviously amazing but he's pretty much fine the way he is. having a character with a uniquely threatening neutral game has a lot to offer in terms of a learning experience.

 

[Bryonato]

^Couldn't agree more. Diddy is great but in his current state is undeserving of all the hate and everyone calling for nerfs. I feel his kit offers a lot of counterplay, especially when people get more attuned with their item game.

 

[didds]

I think diddy beats peach. Just camp, peanut pop gun severely screws her float game and Diddy completely out speeds her on the ground. She struggles to punish nair crossups. Uthrow kills decently. She just has a lot of annoying pressure to deal with.

but then again, no one knows how to fight Diddy...

except Diddy.

>_>

 

[Praxis]

I think diddy beats peach. Just camp, peanut pop gun severely screws her float game and Diddy completely out speeds her on the ground. She struggles to punish nair crossups. Uthrow kills decently. She just has a lot of annoying pressure to deal with.

but then again, no one knows how to fight Diddy...

except Diddy.

>_>

I might just be stupid against Melee Peach, but...she's got a good glide toss game and Peach players generally know item games, I don't really know that Diddy has any good responses to dsmash on shield, and he doesn't edgeguard her that well. He can't combo her well, but he fastfalls in to everything, and groundfloats go right over bananas. I might just not know how to fight Peach though.

 

[Praxis]

Also:

Teching will not always put you into good positions, though DMG. imo, it's still a rather disadvantageous situation.

This character's speed will only make the decision making from there easier. Same thing with swatting etc, the character will only get better @ whiff punishes as the playerbase actually become attuned to it. I think a lot of Diddy players aren't that developed in Smash-goodness atm. There's counterplay, but I think Diddy has a lot of answers.

Teching removes almost all of Diddy's guaranteed followups out of bananas, so bananas set up techchases if your opponent can tech every time instead of guarantees. Yeah, teching doesn't get you out of situations, nor should it. But it's really, really easy to tech bananas (it's halfway in the trip animation). I'd rather be hit by a banana than hit by one of Fox's attacks.

 

[didds]

I just run away the whole time and shoot and throw lots of stuff. I guess I can just out item play the peaches I've fought. Diddy just seems to have such an advantage in neutral that he can pretty much annoy peach into bad spots. And even if Diddy can't land a clean hit, I would just camp til she's at uthrow kill percentage.

Room to work is vital though: ban FoD, Yoshi's Island and maybe Dream land since the ceiling is a bit high for my taste.

 

[Cassio]

Diddy is definitely an outstanding character. The problem is even the best diddy players arent great and even still theyre pulling in some pretty good results. I joke hes broken but honestly in the hands of a real top level smash player the character has strong potential for second best. People dont see it right now because the players that have success with diddy havent hit his potential and so he still looks fairly flawed. But all the flaws people point out in the character have pretty answerable solutions for diddy. He is beatable though, and I agree he shouldnt be nerfed (neither should fox). The one thing he has thats kinda dumb are his chaingrabs/pseudo-chaingrabs, thats definitely too much.

 

[woundedust]

A counter pick to diddy or a flaw in neutral will probably come up in the next couple weeks loolll

 

[Cassio]

Highly doubt the latter, diddy's neutral is very similar to Brawl's where no real flaw was found. But there could end up being a soft counter to diddy.

 

[Oracle]

Also ppls item games are really bad in general so diddy gets a lot of mileage from that. Although I shudder to think what would happen if someone like gnes seriously played pm diddy

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Real talk? I think bananas that didn't trip when thrown at people was just fine (and made sense, too) not sure why that got changed.

Also, as far as his Fair goes, pretty sure you can DI a Knee pretty radically and people like to compare the two whereas Fair from Diddy (It's like Falco's Dair but sideways and with a sourspot) doesn't seem to let you DI it much. I'll admit everyone still has to learn how to use items against Diddy but I have a feeling not everyone will be able to use Peels very effectively.

 

[Ripple]

Diddys fair let's you DI it the same amount as anymove. The real trick to "survivng" it is DIing down

 

[1FD]

How are the ICs holding up?
They're pretty easy to split for the most part but only if the opponent gets a chance.
They neutral is pretty solid at least at pace controlling and stuff.
Is there punish game still amazing off grabs or whatever and with the good neutral control can they avoid being abused enough to make it happen lots?
Is there a chance they might crack the top 25% tier of the game or are they destined to fall into that giant ball of decent characters in the mix and therefore could be anywhere in the middle 50% not bottom or top 25%s?
Or are they maybe a tad weaker than most so likely to be in the bottom 25%?
I'm not following them too much because I'm lazy to check the forums but insight is cool

LETS DISCUSS FATTIES TOO
Dedede Bowser DK and Zard
To me they all seem polarizing and around the same place among the whole game.
None will crack top quarter 25% for sure I think.
Given so many other characters I think are pushing for the top quarter I think these 4 are probably bottom half.
Who is the best of them and who is the worse and do they all seem close to others too?
I think they are all on the edge between bottom 25% and a couple might be down there but it's hard to tell since they're all so good at crushing some things but lose hard to other things.
Or more like a Marth vs Puff in melee where Marth controls the match for 90% of the game but Puff can win it pretty easily if she gets even 10% of the game under her control over the course of a whole match.
Fatties have that 10% Puff side of the match ups pretty good in this game it seems.

Thoughts on those 2 things?
What are the things those 5 characters struggle with and is that where CP characters come in with PM and who would they need to CP with most likely?
Of course player style and stuff all comes into play for that stuff but there must be a CONSTANT that they all uniquely will be affected by other than fattihood and being solopopo'd

Also to add most people I talked to were thinking Diddy and Sonic and others were good characters in the last patch and were a little surprised at the buffs. Welcoming to them because they're even more solid and fun and whatever and that alone made them almost necessary to adjust. But we were all pretty sure they were fine before 3.0 and it wasn't until reading complaints about stuff on here that I even heard about them being weak.
Amazing what a patch can do!

 

[didds]

Diddys fair let's you DI it the same amount as anymove. The real trick to "survivng" it is DIing down

can you explain cause I don't understand the DIing down part

just seems counter-intuitive

 

[MagnesD3]

Diddy is fine, I do think his b up having spike properties is silly though, I'd also nerf the distance of his b up a little but everything else is fine.

 

[Hylian]

can you explain cause I don't understand the DIing down part

just seems counter-intuitive

He probably means so that you can tech on the stage, you see this often when people play against sheik and DI her fair downwards to try and tech.

 

[G13_Flux]

i think DDD and DK could get a solid mid tier.

 

[didds]

okay that would make sense

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Peach is so BROKEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

YOLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

YOLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

i get pooped on

 

[Soft Serve]

Diddy is definitely an outstanding character. The problem is even the best diddy players arent great and even still theyre pulling in some pretty good results. I joke hes broken but honestly in the hands of a real top level smash player the character has strong potential for second best. People dont see it right now because the players that have success with diddy havent hit his potential and so he still looks fairly flawed. But all the flaws people point out in the character have pretty answerable solutions for diddy. He is beatable though, and I agree he shouldnt be nerfed (neither should fox). The one thing he has thats kinda dumb are his chaingrabs/pseudo-chaingrabs, thats definitely too much.

I don't think its fair to say that the people currently placing well with Diddy should attribute it to the character and not themselves as a player. I know almost all the diddy's that place well (disqo, abstract, DLA, Boss, junebug) either put in a ton of time studying Diddy and his options, or in the case of Boss and Juebug are really good smashers that have put good time into the character. Even Seagull Joe, despite him only recently picking up the monkey, has put in considerable time in the diddy boards and skype group talking about Diddy, and I'm certain he swaps notes with Boss pretty often. It feels like we're doing the thing again where we knocked wizzrobe's skills as a smasher, attributing his success to 2.X sonic, Or Vro to 2.1 Ike, or whatever Link/Ivy mains M2k accuses of getting by by solely the character. Idk, It just urks me that we can make assertions like "diddy players aren't top 5 players and are winning" when other characters are popular and win also (Lucas, Link, Wolf, Spacies) and aren't neccesarrily played by "top players."

Also, what chain grabs do you mean? Do you mean the up-throw chaingrabs on Spacies that everyone has? Or the D-throw regrab that relys on oppponents DI'ing incorrectly, without another throw to complement for regrab (fthrow can net a fair, same with up-throw, on bad DI), making it not even a true Di mixup, similar to waht Falco/zelda/peach have, Unlike the true Di mix-up regrabs that the likes of Wolf, Lucas, Shiek, and others have?


I know there are piles of salt emminating from this post, but I just really hate attributing success to characters instead of players.

 

[fabulouspants]

nah m2k is ass and gets carried by fox.

 

[Cassio]

I dont mean it that way, they deserve their success. My main point is diddy still has room for further great achievement in the hands of the right player.

Also its diddys dthrow, which can be DI'd but the only thing you can do is tech the ground. Im not sure if thats true for every character, but I played Okamis diddy and he would just read the tech and grab you again anyways on several characters. Disqo didnt think you could either but Okami seemed very skilled and better at it.

 

[Vashimus]

Okami's still alive?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Nah real rap, Lucas carries me pretty hard.