Tier List Speculation

[Terotrous]

Pichu's self-damaging mechanic really doesn't mean that much though. It makes you die faster, and it makes Pichu players refrain from spamming thunderbolts, but it doesn't really make Pichu play any differently on a fundamental level. As Scuba Steve said, a buffed Pichu would Basically just be Pikachu.

Yes, in Melee, the self-damage mechanic doesn't really have too much impact, because regardless of how much damage Pichu has he dies in a few hits anyway. That's why I suggested making it a risk-reward mechanic, where the more you damage yourself, the more powerful you become (in some way or other), but obviously you also get closer to being dead.

This would make Pichu pretty different from Pikachu.

Pichu is and always will be a redundant character. He is just a smaller worse Pikachu. I really don't see how anyone likes him in earnest.

Just like how Roy is just a worse version of Marth? They could never change Roy so he would be a distinct character oh wait.

 

[Warhawk]

Roy at least worked somewhat differently in melee than Marth. Similar neutral game, but their combo games operated differently. Pichu really doesn't work that differently other than being more terrible in nearly every aspect compared to Pikachu.

 

[Clocked]

Yes, in Melee, the self-damage mechanic doesn't really have too much impact, because regardless of how much damage Pichu has he dies in a few hits anyway. That's why I suggested making it a risk-reward mechanic, where the more you damage yourself, the more powerful you become (in some way or other), but obviously you also get closer to being dead.

This would make Pichu pretty different from Pikachu.

So you want Pikachu with Lucario's Aura mechanic? It doesn't really make sense to have Pichu have a mechanic like that, but Project M isn't Nintendo, so if that's what they feel would be best I'm sure they'll do it. I hated the Aura mechanic, I guess if Pichu had a reliable way to get up to the damage the player wanted in good time it could be pretty strong, but frankly I feel like the problem with it is that max-damage-Pichu has to be noticably better than Pikachu, and once he gets there, if a player can keep from getting hit, a noticably more deadly Pikachu would be a real ***** to deal with.

I love the idea though, I think it's certainly more interesting than the Young Link-Esque approach some are promoting.

 

[Terotrous]

Roy at least worked somewhat differently in melee than Marth. Similar neutral game, but their combo games operated differently. Pichu really doesn't work that differently other than being more terrible in nearly every aspect compared to Pikachu.

So does Pichu. Look at what M2K is doing in those videos, Pika doesn't have those same combos. Some of his moves (notably uair) work quite differently from Pikachu.

So you want Pikachu with Lucario's Aura mechanic?

Actually my idea was that Pichu has kind of an inverse Solarbeam, a move that becomes more powerful the more he's hurt himself since he last used it. This kind of makes sense from a canon perspective since Pichu is retaining extra electrical power when he uses his electric moves, and there's an attack called Discharge that releases that energy. The Aura mechanic is definitely another way you could go about it though.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Take it to the ****ing Clone Engine thread

 

[Terotrous]

Take it to the ****ing Clone Engine thread

You're welcome to get this thread back on topic by discussing Jigglypuff or any other character any time you want.

Particularly since the discussion of unique tools or mechanics is actually pretty relevant in this case.

 

[Warhawk]

So does Pichu. Look at what M2K is doing in those videos, Pika doesn't have those same combos. Some of his moves (notably uair) work quite differently from Pikachu.

I'm not going to rewatch drunk2king sandbagging against aMSa sandbagging equally as much again, but from the first video I did not see a single combo that Pikachu cannot do. Maybe Pichu's uair chains can go on an uair longer or something, but there's nothing substantially different there.

 

[Terotrous]

Pichu is quicker than Pikachu, so he can continue combos in situations where Pikachu can't. Also, longer uair juggles is pretty significant.


Kind of a moot point anyway because the PMBR would likely change some of Pichu's properties like they did with Roy if he came back. In particular, I suspect he'd be allowed to act after Agility, since it's not an attack.

 

[王女 クマトラ]

Thought I'd post this here (might post a thread too, but I have a feeling I'd get flamed and told to go here if I do )
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/WM5WFB7

Basically a survey to have a community tier list ranked from 1-41 (instead of CT's rate 1-10 where no one really rated under 5)
Also made a midwest survey exactly the same as an experiment, considering CT's basically mirrors east coast's opinion on characters. They both close next Monday at 12pm, which can be extended if need be. Oh yeah, and something I should point out is that if you're lazy like me, you can always drag and drop the characters on top/under each other rather then clicking on the drop down menu.

 

[Warhawk]

It would be significant if Pikachu and Pichu's uair wasn't so weak. You get maybe an extra 2-3 percent and generally they don't want to uair 4 times, its better to get an uair to a platform chase so you can hit them with an upsmash or something stronger. Also, any speed difference is negligible. Pichu maybe accelerates slightly faster out of a dash, I don't think its significant to their combo game.

EDIT: Just checked, their dash speed is the same and Pikachu actually accelerates faster. I also doubt their jumpsquat frames or fall speed is substantially different but I can check that too.

EDIT2: Fall speed and jump squat frames appear the same as well.

 

[9bit]

I'm free to merrily talk about tiers and characters that exist in PM because I have Terotrous set to ignore.

So, about those characters that are in PM. I said a while back (drunkenly), I think in this thread, that I thought Falco was better than Fox in this game. And then M2K said the same thing. The general opinion around these parts though is that Fox is better.

I think because it's easier to do spacie shield pressure in this game, and that Falco's shield pressure leads to better things, he is buffed more than Fox that way. Also come on those lasers are still insane.

 

[batistabus]

Yo, can I make a player tier list instead?

(excluding Peepee, Mango, Leffen, etc. cause they don't take PM seriously)

S:
Armada
Mew2King

A:
ProfessorPro
TheReflexWonder

Gahlike:
Eli

B:
Sethlon
Fly Amanita
Oracle
Plup
McBad
Chillindude
Anther
Zero

C:
Gallo
Hbox
Metroid
Kirk
Strong Bad
Wizzrobe
Silent Wolf
Chu Dat
DEHF
Oro!?
Rat
Scythe
ZHime
Nintendude

D:
Denti
Rolex
Hylian
Frozen
Smash God
Neon
Pink Fresh
KDJ
Gimpyfish

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm free to merrily talk about tiers and characters that exist in PM because I have Terotrous set to ignore.

So, about those characters that are in PM. I said a while back (drunkenly), I think in this thread, that I thought Falco was better than Fox in this game. And then M2K said the same thing. The general opinion around these parts though is that Fox is better.

I think because it's easier to do spacie shield pressure in this game, and that Falco's shield pressure leads to better things, he is buffed more than Fox that way. Also come on those lasers are still insane.

I personally am of the opinion that even if he isn't better than Fox, or no longer the best/second best, he is still atrociously designed.

 

[Terotrous]

It would be significant if Pikachu and Pichu's uair wasn't so weak. You get maybe an extra 2-3 percent and generally they don't want to uair 4 times, its better to get an uair to a platform chase so you can hit them with an upsmash or something stronger. Also, any speed difference is negligible. Pichu maybe accelerates slightly faster out of a dash, I don't think its significant to their combo game.

EDIT: Just checked, their dash speed is the same and Pikachu actually accelerates faster. I also doubt their jumpsquat frames or fall speed is substantially different but I can check that too.

EDIT2: Fall speed and jump squat frames appear the same as well.

Smashwiki seems inconsistent, on the Pichu page they claim his acceleration is faster, but on the acceleration page they claim Pikachu is faster.

In any case Pichu does have a shorter jump, giving him a faster shffl. He also has slightly better traction.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Damn it. I can't believe that I was finally made to use the ignore function after 1500+ messages.

Better for my sanity I suppose.

 

[Warhawk]

I'm free to merrily talk about tiers and characters that exist in PM because I have Terotrous set to ignore.

So, about those characters that are in PM. I said a while back (drunkenly), I think in this thread, that I thought Falco was better than Fox in this game. And then M2K said the same thing. The general opinion around these parts though is that Fox is better.

I think because it's easier to do spacie shield pressure in this game, and that Falco's shield pressure leads to better things, he is buffed more than Fox that way. Also come on those lasers are still insane.

At first I thought Falco was better as well just by playing both of them, but as I came to think his matchups I think he has more troublesome or close call matchups than Fox. I even think he probably loses a few whereas Fox likely doesn't so I think while Falco probably shuts down some characters completely, winning more matchups is more important than utterly dominating a character so I think now that Fox is better. I don't even play them anymore though and actively avoid doing so in Project M so I could be completely wrong.

Smashwiki seems inconsistent, on the Pichu page they claim his acceleration is faster, but on the acceleration page they claim Pikachu is faster.

In any case Pichu does have a shorter jump, giving him a faster shffl. He also has slightly better traction.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ssbm-statistics-list.30064/

Just do research and/or play around with them. Pichu has a quicker 2 frame empty land I think, but really their speed differences are mostly negligible. Pichu really is just a garbage Pikachu.

 

[1MachGO]

The problem is just that Jiggs really isn't a very good character in this game. Even Hungrybox, who is by far the best Jiggs (arguably the only one worth talking about) has to switch away from Jiggs constantly because there's a lot of matches Jiggs just can't win.

I don't disagree that Jiggs is worse (relatively speaking) in P:M. However, I completely disagree with your stance that Jiggs has terrible design or other opinionated arguments you bring up.

A more productive way to look at this would be to try and figure out a way to improve Jiggs's current problems while maintaining what made her unique to begin with.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Era of the monkeys. Diddys springing up like its spring time, DK's going more ape then usual. Poob isnt like THAT good, but he is at the same time. I dont know why he is so much fun to watch.

 

[Terotrous]

Damn it. I can't believe that I was finally made to use the ignore function after 1500+ messages.

Better for my sanity I suppose.

It's funny because you've provided just as much clutter by complaining about my posts, and this whole discussion was started by someone trying to argue against the obviously true fact that Pichu's smashes have good killing power purely because I posted it. But hey, less people trolling my comments is always a plus.

At first I thought Falco was better as well just by playing both of them, but as I came to think his matchups I think he has more troublesome or close call matchups than Fox.

This is definitely my opinion too. Also seems to be supported by tourney results, where Fox has done a lot better than Falco overall. It's also worth noting that both Wolf and Lucas also have great shield pressure, so this is not a trait that's unique to Falco.

I don't disagree that Jiggs is worse (relatively speaking) in P:M. However, I completely disagree with your stance that Jiggs has terrible design or other opinionated arguments you bring up.

A more productive way to look at this would be to try and figure out a way to improve Jiggs's current problems while maintaining what made her unique to begin with.

What I mean by terrible design is that Jiggs has two special moves and a lot of normals that simply have very little use. Unfortunately, I think it's pretty hard to buff those moves while staying faithful to the character simply because those moves are never used by Jiggs players. You can't just make them a little better without totally changing how she plays.

 

[Deleted member]

Yo, can I make a player tier list instead?

Wheres lunchables?

 

[Bryonato]

Wheres lunchables?

he's in the "too godlike for this list" tier

 

[Deleted member]

I'm bottom tier
JUST LIKE MY CHARACTER

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Tier lists of players don't really result in anything.

It's better to just talk some **** like 'Ripple rulz Fly drulz' and try to get a hype money match out of it.

 

[batistabus]

Wheres lunchables?

On the nostalgic snack tier list.

It's better to just talk some ****

I put Rolex 4 tiers below Professor Pro.

 

[1MachGO]

What I mean by terrible design is that Jiggs has two special moves and a lot of normals that simply have very little use. Unfortunately, I think it's pretty hard to buff those moves while staying faithful to the character simply because those moves are never used by Jiggs players. You can't just make them a little better without totally changing how she plays.

You have resorted to personal opinion multiple times when addressing this topic. Furthermore, saying that she can't be improved without drastically altering her playstyle is an exaggeration and an unrealistic rationalization. To be honest, it comes off as stubbornness and I think you have problems with oversimplification.

All Jiggs needs is ways to deal with projectiles and some way to deal with Mewtwo's enormous, low lag attacks. The projectile issue could be addressed by giving Jiggs's some kind of minor improvement to fair (maybe invincibility on the tip of her feet?) so she can safely disable them. As for Mewtwo, the problems could actually stem more from Mewtwo's end. If Mewtwo doesn't have a tail hitbox, this means he has enormous and disjointed, low lag attacks and someone in the PMBR should have foresaw that it would have posed an enormous problem for Jiggs (especially considering Mewtwo's mobility). If the tail hitbox is there, Mewtwo's attacks should be slowed down a bit and Jiggs will be able to space against his long ranged attacks like every other character.

 

[BigglesWorth]

There has been a minimum of 6 months between every major patch/update. This is towards people that act like the game is changed frequently.

I am very happy about this. Giving people time to develop counter strategies themselves and waiting on the community is a much better way of doing balance.

 

[jtm94]

Jigglypuff has a 1 frame KO move with invincibility. Just like Fox, except you don't even need to use it at the edge. Unfortunately, however, rest does not KO everyone at 0 like shine can.

 

[MLGF]

Oh god, is this gonna turn into another Pro vs Reflex battle?

 

[Deleted member]

Jigglypuff has a 1 frame KO move with invincibility. Just like Fox, except you don't even need to use it at the edge. Unfortunately, however, rest does not KO everyone at 0 like shine can.

Shine lost its invincibility.

 

[Terotrous]

All Jiggs needs is ways to deal with projectiles and some way to deal with Mewtwo's enormous, low lag attacks. The projectile issue could be addressed by giving Jiggs's some kind of minor improvement to fair (maybe invincibility on the tip of her feet?) so she can safely disable them.

You don't need a really advantageous hitbox to clank projectiles, what you can and can't clank is based on the power of the attack you stick out.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority

As for Mewtwo, the problems could actually stem more from Mewtwo's end. If Mewtwo doesn't have a tail hitbox, this means he has enormous and disjointed, low lag attacks and someone in the PMBR should have foresaw that it would have posed an enormous problem for Jiggs (especially considering Mewtwo's mobility). If the tail hitbox is there, Mewtwo's attacks should be slowed down a bit and Jiggs will be able to space against his long ranged attacks like every other character.

It's not just Mewtwo, Ivy can do pretty much the same thing.


Honestly though, Jiggs problems aren't just those two. Really, she doesn't do particularly well against anyone except fast-fallers. This was tolerable in Melee because if you did well against fast fallers, you were a fine character, but PM is much more diverse.

Jigglypuff has a 1 frame KO move with invincibility. Just like Fox, except you don't even need to use it at the edge. Unfortunately, however, rest does not KO everyone at 0 like shine can.

Shine's hitbox is a thousand times better. It's all around Fox, while Rest is only the very middle of Jiggs.

 

[CyberZixx]

Clearly we need to make her rest her entire body and when she rests she grows giant like her final smash.

 

[Terotrous]

Clearly we need to make her rest her entire body and when she rests she grows giant like her final smash.

That's still not as good as shine, it also needs to be jump cancellable and reflect projectiles.


Actually in all seriousness I would consider making its hitbox better in exchange for a power decrease.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Oh god, is this gonna turn into another Pro vs Reflex battle?

Now that's a set I'd love to see. Would it be Snake v/s Ivy or Snake v/s Wario, though? Has Reflex picked up Squirtle seriously?

 

[standardtoaster]

I'll be monitoring this thread more closely and will be handing out warnings/infractions if the really off topic posts continue. It's really not that hard to stay on topic, guys.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I believe King Dedede is solidly mid tier.

Thoughts?

 

[Deleted member]

I see king ddd put as low tier a lot, but I think he's higher than that. The only true low tier characters are ganon jiggs and luigi imo

 

[Terotrous]

Dedede is one of those characters who has clear strengths and weaknesses. He's quite heavy and has nice range and power, but he's very slow and he's a huge target for attacks and combos. Compared to some of the other heavy characters, he's a bit more rounded, having decent recovery and a serviceable projectile, and he benefits from the fact that there's no other character who does all the same stuff but better, but I still think there's too many well rounded characters lacking significant drawbacks for him to be higher than lower mid.


I would also really like to know why so many people think Luigi is so low tier. He wasn't total garbage in Melee and he got some nice buffs, and you really can't argue with that wavedash / waveland.

 

[JOE!]

Yo, can I make a player tier list instead?

(excluding Peepee, Mango, Leffen, etc. cause they don't take PM seriously)
SS:
POOB

S:
Armada
Mew2King

A:
ProfessorPro
TheReflexWonder

Gahlike:
Eli

B:
Sethlon
Fly Amanita
Oracle
Plup
McBad
Chillindude
Anther
Zero

C:
Gallo
Hbox
Metroid
Kirk
Strong Bad
Wizzrobe
Silent Wolf
Chu Dat
DEHF
Oro!?
Rat
Scythe
ZHime
Nintendude

D:
Denti
Rolex
Hylian
Frozen
Smash God
Neon
Pink Fresh
KDJ
Gimpyfish

fixd

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You know, Poob and Pro both demonstrated some nice anti-tether tech with their characters: Poob using a ledgedrop side-B and Pro using a full-hop C4 drop to catch tethering characters before reel-in.

Frankly, tethers are plenty punishable since they are stuck on a pretty linear path with few options once they're stuck on the ledge. If Melee tethers can't be implemented, nothing worse than a slow-down in reel speed is needed to balance out the relative safety of a tether v/s other recoveries. (Mind, I don't think tethers need that right now, either, but it could be a good way of incorporating an 'overall recovery nerf' if people still want that without making tethers totally useless once again.)

 

[Terotrous]

Honestly I think the way tethers work in this game is totally fine. The fact that they just didn't work at all if someone was sitting on the ledge was really dumb, PM's solution is tons better. They're still quite punishable if you've already got the ledge, but not to the point of total uselessness. My only beef is that they took out Sheik's tether. It gave side B a reason to exist dammit!