Axrz
Smash Apprentice
Even if you can be punished for hitting it?
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
you missed all the DDD action
I'm not suggesting that Rest is overpowered, it backfires as often as it succeeds, I just think it's too volatile. Either you land a OHKO or you take a huge punish (usually an OHKO since Jiggs is so light). Having one DI mixup decide so much is a bit ridiculous.
With the much large stage boundies and heavier cast, Rest isn't even a 1hko move in most situations. Like, at sub 50%, Marth/shiek/peach/ganon fairly easaly survive rests on dreamland in melee with good DI.
Its still a fantastic punish move but it isn't the" I'm going to die, I might as well DI straight down so I get a punish" move it was before (except vs the lighter/faster falling side of the cast. It still kills spacies, Diddy, falcon, squirtle, GnW, etc really early although its hard to hit with).
I don't really know how I feel about puff. I think that she might need just like one or two tools that compliment her good air game in some way. Rollout has tons of potential to not suck (Randow spitball but if you could go downwards with it and it had minimal landing frames it would be a bad ass way for Jiggs to get down ffom juggles/refresh her jumps).
Bar Wars: The PhanKong Menace
Kong is love, Kong is life. Abolish Kongress, embrace the Kongunism.
#BananaBreadCombos
Its still a fantastic punish move but it isn't the" I'm going to die, I might as well DI straight down so I get a punish" move it was before (except vs the lighter/faster falling side of the cast. It still kills spacies, Diddy, falcon, squirtle, GnW, etc really early although its hard to hit with).
I don't really know how I feel about puff. I think that she might need just like one or two tools that compliment her good air game in some way. Rollout has tons of potential to not suck (Randow spitball but if you could go downwards with it and it had minimal landing frames it would be a bad ass way for Jiggs to get down ffom juggles/refresh her jumps).
Bar Wars: The PhanKong Menace
Kong is love, Kong is life. Abolish Kongress, embrace the Kongunism.
#BananaBreadCombos
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Omg there were a lot of Diddys at a tournament in a Diddy-heavy region
Be still my beating heart
Meanwhile over at Chicago a Bowser was punching everything in the face and Dedede keeps proving he's not the worst character in the game by a long shot.
Funnily enough Bar Wars had a bunch of Ganon action too, I was impressed that June was able to take out Boss' Mario.
Be still my beating heart
Meanwhile over at Chicago a Bowser was punching everything in the face and Dedede keeps proving he's not the worst character in the game by a long shot.
Funnily enough Bar Wars had a bunch of Ganon action too, I was impressed that June was able to take out Boss' Mario.
I do quite a lot and while I do agree I can exaggerate how bad it can be at times I also think you give it too much props.Imagining everything in the perfect possible scenario wont cut it in the end I fee,but neither is my habit of doing it in the worst possible scenario.I know Yoshi is a bit unexplored but saying several high caliber players have to mess around with him for a year to know anything about him simply isn't true.Ill hush up about it though because arguing is not productive and I don't learn anything which is why im here.Except that you can usually make it back pretty easy.
@Saproling outta curiousity, do you play Yoshi? Not tryna come at you, I'm just genuinely curious. On paper his recovery might seem lacking, but it really isn't.
FlamingForce
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2013
- Messages
- 390
I killed a yoshi today by resting him out of his 2nd jump which launched him absolutely nowhere but was apparently enough to break the armor.
I thought it was pretty humorous.
I thought it was pretty humorous.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
You know, there's a reason the first Brawl tier list looks so f***ing stupid today.
He really is only a bit unexplored I don't think theres as much as you think there will be.
I really think were not gonna find a whole bunch of new stuff out about him just a few which is still an alright reason.
I really think were not gonna find a whole bunch of new stuff out about him just a few which is still an alright reason.
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I think Puff's general design is so bad that you almost have to drastically revamp her for her to be viable and fun. I don't really like any of the suggestions I've heard so far (from myself or others), but I don't doubt that something quite major is necessary.
Honestly I feel Pichu is a much better design than Puff. All Pichu needs to be a viable character is some tradeoff for his self-damage mechanic and he could be viable. The idea I like is having a "Discharge" special that gains power and range the more Pichu hurts himself, but the power is lost if you die so you can't just run away and hurt yourself or anything.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Fixd
FlamingForce
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2013
- Messages
- 390
Jiggs is fun as hell, what are you talking about lmao.
Go fight Jiggs vs Ivysaur a few times and tell me how much fun you're having.
A lot of people really hate playing against Jiggs though. It's hella fun to play as Jiggs, but a lot of people HATE getting rest used on them.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Jiggs was PM Zelda before complaining about "I have to play vs Zelda different" was cool
I'm totally fine with Zelda's design because Zelda has versatility to her design. Yes, she has the mines, but she also has some pretty legitimate pokes and some deadly aerials. Jiggs is easily the most one-dimensional character in the game, she weaves in and out with bair and fair and that's pretty much it.
I disagree with the statement that Jiggs is one-dimensional. Jigglypuff is the definition of a glass cannon. Even one mistake can spell death for a Puff player, I just wish the PM team would add in some more opportunities to DI in response to the up(?) throw.
The problem is that Puff's offense options are so limited that many other characters have greatly superior offensive output. To be a glass cannon, you need to have offense that is really hard to defend against via any method other than killing the glass cannon before they kill you, like Fox for example. Puff is fairly easily kept out by disjoints since her own range is not great and she lacks versatility in her approach.
Watch this video for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGTpFCmPGDc
What would you do in this matchup besides die?
Watch this video for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGTpFCmPGDc
What would you do in this matchup besides die?
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Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
I actually asked the Pichu boards a while ago how good Pichu would be if the self-damaging mechanic was removed, and the answer was that he would move up like only 2 places on the tier list. Even without the self-damaging aspect, Pichu still sucks because he has absolutely terrible range, and his moves deal little to no damage. Pichu doesn't have any kills move either, so he would still suck a lot if that one thing about him was removed.
What do you mean? like up-throw rest? Its not hard for spacies to DI throws on reaction, expecially because if a spacie got grabbed its because they messed up and they know that they did (like if you miss an L cancel because your shine didn't come out, and you're getting grabbed, most spacies will just DI to a side by pure habit).
Puff's throw game is awful if you're not by a ledge/a spacie.
I definitely agree that there isn't some hidden gold mine of special Yoshi tech, I just think it'll be more about refining his punish game. It's early in the game's life span and without an Armada showcasing optimal punishes with the character he may seem lacking. Once that is improved upon I just believe that his recovery will seem justified.
#yaylearning
Uhh, what? Pichu has no kill moves? Have you seen his up and forward smashes? Even Nair has decent power. He's also super crazily fast. Watch this and be afraid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blsY7fX3LvU
Not lacking in kill power in any way. As I understand it, the main problem with Pichu is just his godawful defense.
Fine, here's M2K Pichu vs Amsa.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juydI7BjM9M#t=8m10s
He's still putting in work.
Anyway, Pichu is obviously not high tier in Melee, but he can put in damage and he has some kill potential, with some buffs that could be viable.
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Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
I think the problem is that a buffed Pichu would basically just be Pikachu.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
seriously, do not argue with terotrous
it's not worth the time
it's not worth the time
Lol what is this? I thought complaining about Jiggs was a fad that died out like 4 years ago.
Anyway, @
Terotrous
, the main problem I have with your stance is that you are trying to criticize Jiggs based on your preconceptions/personal opinions of "fun", "good design", or how a "glass cannon" should work. You should simply try to understand that Jiggs isn't like most characters and that's precisely what makes her interesting. Jiggs, ICs, Lucario, Zelda, etc. are all characters that don't really fit the traditional mold. The typical gameplay tropes they change/take away adds depth to the overarching metagame (as well as adding diversity to the roster).
Anyway, @
Terotrous
, the main problem I have with your stance is that you are trying to criticize Jiggs based on your preconceptions/personal opinions of "fun", "good design", or how a "glass cannon" should work. You should simply try to understand that Jiggs isn't like most characters and that's precisely what makes her interesting. Jiggs, ICs, Lucario, Zelda, etc. are all characters that don't really fit the traditional mold. The typical gameplay tropes they change/take away adds depth to the overarching metagame (as well as adding diversity to the roster).
Warhawk
Smash Lord
They were both sandbagging really hard, so I wouldn't use that set as proof of anything. Pichu does have some trouble killing although this weakness is nowhere near as bad as its abysmal range (especially on its grab), light weight, and susceptibility to throw combos. The self-damaging mechanic isn't even that bad compared to his other problems imo. He just gets junked by any decent character.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
Let's go back to talking about how to fix Puff, that discussion was far more interesting than ridiculing Terotrous. Is there any way to save her melee iteration as we know it? Maybe its just me but she seems really lacking in this game, so many characters seem to zone much better than her now and are more versatile on top of it.
Perhaps Jigglypuff could get a reworked up-B? Maybe making her a bit faster overall, or increasing her range would help her control space better?
Not if he kept the self-damage mechanic.
The problem is just that Jiggs really isn't a very good character in this game. Even Hungrybox, who is by far the best Jiggs (arguably the only one worth talking about) has to switch away from Jiggs constantly because there's a lot of matches Jiggs just can't win.Lol what is this? I thought complaining about Jiggs was a fad that died out like 4 years ago.
Anyway, @
D2K would still beat like 90% of the people here. Maybe 100%. His spacing and movement with Pichu is still incredibly on point.
Pichu's self-damaging mechanic really doesn't mean that much though. It makes you die faster, and it makes Pichu players refrain from spamming thunderbolts, but it doesn't really make Pichu play any differently on a fundamental level. As Scuba Steve said, a buffed Pichu would Basically just be Pikachu.