Tier List Speculation

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I ... don't want to imagine a world in which P:M Sheik has a tether.

 

[Terotrous]

I ... don't want to imagine a world in which P:M Sheik has a tether.

I don't think it would actually change THAT much, since she can't use it after airdodge. Would definitely solidify her as top tier, but I don't see her jumping to #1 overall because of it.

 

[jtm94]

I think tier position is based on a character's options in certain situations. Which relates to why Fox is top because he has actual best options in almost any situation you can think of all of which are very optimal/safe. Mario is another character who has a plethora of options and can be played pretty much however you want.

Fox, Falco, Lucas, MK, Link, ZSS, Mewtwo, Wolf, Toon Link, and Diddy all seem like they have several options for each situation and the tools to react to the gamestate better than most other characters can.

 

[trash?]

I remember talking about recovery in this game, and I wanna throw out something here: why aren't we buffing edgeguarding tools?

like, just tone down the recovery a bit, sure. but why does yoshi have a massive-startup fair that only meteor cancels, when some characters get spikes that come out incredibly quickly, if not near-instantly in some cases?

it should be remembered that, yes, melee top tiers had bad recovery, but they also had just barely good enough edgeguarding. I don't feel like that edgeguarding ever really got buffed by most of the cast (or in snake's case, got nerfed when they DID get a good edgeguarding tool)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I would be far more in favor of buffing Edge-Guarding than I would of nerfing recovery. A mix of recoveries from linear to absurd to predictable to safe really makes off-stage play that much more involved and exciting.

 

[jtm94]

I remember talking about recovery in this game, and I wanna throw out something here: why aren't we buffing edgeguarding tools?

like, just tone down the recovery a bit, sure. but why does yoshi have a massive-startup fair that only meteor cancels, when some characters get spikes that come out incredibly quickly, if not near-instantly in some cases?

it should be remembered that, yes, melee top tiers had bad recovery, but they also had just barely good enough edgeguarding. I don't feel like that edgeguarding ever really got buffed by most of the cast (or in snake's case, got nerfed when they DID get a good edgeguarding tool)

Some characters have great edgeguarding tools. Diddy has 2 meteors, 2 incredibly useful and a 3rd if you count footstooling which anyone can do.

Most characters also have great back airs.

In Yoshi's case he has a dtilt with fixed knockback that crushes a lot of recoveries.

 

[trash?]

meteors, insofar as edgeguarding tools go, are pretty horrible. they were only good at first in melee b/c meteor cancelling has a skill floor, y'all don't even get that justification anymore because you can mash out of it

as an example from the top of my head, m2k could've been able to recover in a match he had vs. awestin several times if he bothered to realize ness' dair isn't free

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Meteor knockback scales with percent now though. At reasonable percents meteors can easily send you to a distance that you can't recover from, especially if you're out of jumps.

 

[jtm94]

You can mash out of it, yes, but they cannot be cancelled until later.

A meteor landed at 100% or more is still game ending, but landing one at 60% or less is not a guaranteed free KO, as it shouldn't be. Even if they do get out of the meteor they are still going to be in a disadvantaged position.

Some characters have crazy strong meteors like Ganon, Roy, and Falcon. I have done my fair share of meteor-cancelling, but never has it put me in a better position than the person who landed the meteor. Many times I don't even get out of it. Even if you mash that doesn't mean you will get out at the perfect frame, that's implying one can mash every frame. + or - a frame could still mean keeping or losing a stock so timing is still > mashing in clutch situations.

As far as spikes go I view them as complete cheese, I do not care how others view them, this is my opinion. Marth's dair is one of the cheesiest things in the game when he can combo into it against most characters, and certain recoveries literally force them into it. I wouldn't take it away because his play is built around it. He lacks extreme KO power that isn't spacing related, and loses all combo game at high percents, but it's just one of those moves that takes all motivation away.
Falco's dair is ridiculous, need I say more.
Snake's is much better than I originally thought, it's completely deserved, but the disjoint seems a little over the top.

 

[Chevy]

Some characters have great edgeguarding tools. Diddy has 2 meteors, 2 incredibly useful and a 3rd if you count footstooling which anyone can do.

He also has the headhumper meteor. So 3 gimp options, 4 counting footstools.

Regarding meteor cancelling, can't you only mash up-B? I think there's still a fail window on jumping, and the no-cancel window is double Melee's so you will always be sent farther down regardless.

 

[Terotrous]

meteors, insofar as edgeguarding tools go, are pretty horrible. they were only good at first in melee b/c meteor cancelling has a skill floor, y'all don't even get that justification anymore because you can mash out of it

Only with UpB. Attempting to mash with jump still results in you losing your chance.

 

[XXXX1000]

Edgeguarding IS buffed, people are just used to Melee edgeguarding being pretty free in most cases

People say "man look at the amazing recovery on Diddy/Ivysaur/Mewtwo/Lucas/Dedede/Mario/ROB/whomever, they never die omggg" but they don't realize that you can take those tools offstage to edgeguard and still make it back to the stage because of your godlike recovery! ROB and Pit can chase offstage for days with fairs and still make it back. Diddy's recovery is one of his best edgeguards. Dedede's multi jumps with AGT and Up+B means that you can go wherever you want. On stages that have walls Ike and Mario can edgeguard so long as they can make it back to the wall in time, because then their vertical recovery is enough. Under the right circumstances, Snake, Link and TL can get great edgeguards and bring themselves back up with explosions. Tethers are really good.

People are still edgeguarding like this is Melee, they stay on stage and then try and intercept the ledge sweetspot, like come on. Recoveries in Melee were ass so all you needed to do was grab ledge and throw a bair or something but everyone has better offstage options now. This is a different game people. Grow a spine and get your ass out there and kill your opponent.

 

[Terotrous]

Edgeguarding IS buffed, people are just used to Melee edgeguarding being pretty free in most cases

People say "man look at the amazing recovery on Diddy/Ivysaur/Mewtwo/Lucas/Dedede/Mario/ROB/whomever, they never die omggg" but they don't realize that you can take those tools offstage to edgeguard and still make it back to the stage because of your godlike recovery!

Yeah, note that it's also in PM's "mission statement" that offstage edge-guarding is intended to be more rewarding (but inherently riskier) than onstage edgeguarding.

It might be a valid point though that edgeguarding and recovery tools are unfairly distributed. I suspect most of the people who are complaining that recoveries are too free are using a character who doesn't have great recovery options, and thus also doesn't have great offstage edgeguarding either. Some of these cases are reasonable, like the spacies, but characters like Falcon and Roy could probably use some recovery buffs.

 

[1MachGO]

Honestly though, Jiggs problems aren't just those two. Really, she doesn't do particularly well against anyone except fast-fallers. This was tolerable in Melee because if you did well against fast fallers, you were a fine character, but PM is much more diverse..

The only characters Jiggs loses to in Melee were Fox (who, mind you, is a fast faller), Doc, and Y. Link. Everyone else is either even or beaten by Jigglypuff.

Again, you are demonstrating your tendency to oversimplify concepts. I don't think I would be wrong for assuming you have only been in the competitive scene for approximately 6 months. New players are welcome, but you should try to be more humble.

 

[Terotrous]

The only characters Jiggs loses to in Melee were Fox (who, mind you, is a fast faller), Doc, and Y. Link. Everyone else is either even or beaten by Jigglypuff.

Which source are you using? That's very different than what Smashwiki has. (EDIT: SSBWiki has a different chart, though neither shows her losing to Doc or YL).

I'm also far from the only one to express this opinion about Jigglypuff, and it's also supported by her general performance in PM, where she has an extremely lopsided matchup chart. She does decent against Melee vets who haven't changed a lot, but generally does bad against Brawl characters and significantly changed characters like Link and Mewtwo.

 

[MagnesD3]

I ... don't want to imagine a world in which P:M Sheik has a tether.

I do, I think she needs it in pm honestly, some of the melee characters need buffs to keep up with the competition.

 

[1MachGO]

Which source are you using? That's very different than what Smashwiki has.

lol....smashwiki?

The smashwiki is not a reliable source for MU information and its extremely outdated. Unfortunately there aren't really any stickied threads with modern info on smashboards either, so actual MU knowledge has to be learned from playing the game, word of mouth, or through other postings.

I can guarantee you that Fox and Y. Link beat Puff and Doc is a soft counter. Marth will be a soft counter too one day when people get better at the MU. Everyone else is even or losing to Jiggs. She is high tier for a reason lol

 

[Terotrous]

The smashwiki is not a reliable source for MU information and its extremely outdated. Unfortunately there aren't really any stickied threads with modern info on smashboards either, so actual MU knowledge has to be learned from playing the game, word of mouth, or through other postings.

That seems to indicate that there's really no consensus. I did look through some Smashboards threads, and they mostly lined up with SSBwiki, in particular they seemed to feel that Jiggs had mild advantage vs Marth and Shiek (which was a point of contention vs Smashwiki, which had these two matchups in the opposite direction).


And honestly, I think it's pretty silly to be calling someone out on their knowledge of a character when the best counterexample you can provide is "word of mouth says otherwise". What's to say that word of mouth is accurate?

 

[Scuba Steve]

Edgeguarding IS buffed, people are just used to Melee edgeguarding being pretty free in most cases

People say "man look at the amazing recovery on Diddy/Ivysaur/Mewtwo/Lucas/Dedede/Mario/ROB/whomever, they never die omggg" but they don't realize that you can take those tools offstage to edgeguard and still make it back to the stage because of your godlike recovery! ROB and Pit can chase offstage for days with fairs and still make it back. Diddy's recovery is one of his best edgeguards. Dedede's multi jumps with AGT and Up+B means that you can go wherever you want. On stages that have walls Ike and Mario can edgeguard so long as they can make it back to the wall in time, because then their vertical recovery is enough. Under the right circumstances, Snake, Link and TL can get great edgeguards and bring themselves back up with explosions. Tethers are really good.

People are still edgeguarding like this is Melee, they stay on stage and then try and intercept the ledge sweetspot, like come on. Recoveries in Melee were *** so all you needed to do was grab ledge and throw a bair or something but everyone has better offstage options now. This is a different game people. Grow a spine and get your *** out there and kill your opponent.

I agree with a lot of this, but one thing that I feel like could be changed is Diddy's barrels. When you hit Diddy out of his Up-b, his jetpack will fly around randomly and can actually damage you on hit. At first, I didn't really pay too much mind to this, but last night I was playing against my friend's Diddy and I noticed that as I baired him for like the 20th time in a row in an edgeguard, that I had actually accumulated around 30% from jetpacks alone. Seeing as how the jetpack goes on a random trajectory and punishes you for just ensuring that you keep Diddy off the stage, I think that the jetpack shouldn't come off after Diddy is hit out of his up-b. I'm not for nerfing recoveries across the board, but I do think several recoveries could have small tweaks that would make the game even better.

 

[Terotrous]

I agree with a lot of this, but one thing that I feel like could be changed is Diddy's barrels. When you hit Diddy out of his Up-b, his jetpack will fly around randomly and can actually damage you on hit. At first, I didn't really pay too much mind to this, but last night I was playing against my friend's Diddy and I noticed that as I baired him for like the 20th time in a row in an edgeguard, that I had actually accumulated around 30% from jetpacks alone

I posted this before when talking about Diddy, btw. It is kind of ridiculous. Not only does it give you damage, but it also often prevents harder punishes by interrupting your combos.

Definitely one of many factors that makes Diddy such a strong character overall. His survivability is very good for a character who has such strong pressure.

 

[didds]

Well this will only make things better for your point, but I think the barrel might also have minor homing capabilities. Not positive though so if someone from the PMBR wants to either confirm or deny that would be just dandy.

 

[1MachGO]

That seems to indicate that there's really no consensus. I did look through some Smashboards threads, and they mostly lined up with SSBwiki, in particular they seemed to feel that Jiggs had mild advantage vs Marth and Shiek (which was a point of contention vs Smashwiki, which had these two matchups in the opposite direction).


And honestly, I think it's pretty silly to be calling someone out on their knowledge of a character when the best counterexample you can provide is "word of mouth says otherwise". What's to say that word of mouth is accurate?

KirbyKaze would disagree on Sheik (probably would say its even) and Kadano/Dr. PP would disagree about Marth (probably would say Marth [slightly?] wins). Take my word for it that Jiggs doesn't have many bad MUs in Melee.

Its also ironic that you are criticizing where I got my information when your source can be community edited by unknown people. Please find a top player who endorses ssbwiki or smashwiki as a good place to learn about MUs and the "general consensus". You have to ask around the boards, listen to commentators (commentators who are high level players and have first hand experience on the MU they are addressing that is), and play the game like everyone else does. It isn't your fault that the smash community doesn't have organized and up to date information, but you shouldn't expect to be able to read every page on the wiki and then have enough information to take a position like "Jiggs is bad" on smashboards.

Regardless, there should be enough evidence to indicate that you were wrong in your assumption that Jiggs's only good MUs are against space animals. Not only does she lose to Fox, but she wouldn't be high tier if she lost to every character in the game lol.

 

[Praxis]

People are so nutty about nerfing stuff. I'll see a billion people call to nerf things new characters have (say, Diddy's fair) that aren't as good as stuff top Melee characters have that get a free pass because people want the same characters (Fox upsmash, Jigglypuff bair and rest, Peach dsmash, Marth's fair). Let's be straight up- I don't think there are very many things that need to be nerfed at all in PM at this point. Let's be even more straight- the top Melee characters have dumb stuff, and most characters will need at least one dumb thing to be able to compete. Some weak characters need to be buffed, and maybe one or two characters need minor nerfs, but that's really it. If a character isn't as good as Fox/Marth, there's no reason to try to nerf them.


I have a completely silly idea, but I was listening to a discussion on ICs chain grabs and someone validly pointed out that people whine about ICs grabs and try to ban wobbling, yet no one complains about Jigglypuff's rest which is easier to perform and has a bigger effect on the game. Why? Because it's quick, it's not slow and frustrating and boring.

So...why not give ICs a "Rest"? Say, something that Nana can perform that only affects a player if Popo is holding them and does a ton of damage/knockback like Rest does. For example, make it so that if Nana footstools a grabbed opponent, the opponent takes a powerful hit.

Thus, ICs get their Melee/Brawl gameplay logic ("don't get grabbed") and grab setups back without a bunch of stupid infinites, spectators won't get mad at wobbling, ICs will be good again, and it's not 100% guaranteed out of grabs because you have time to mash out while Nana gets in position.

 

[Terotrous]

Its also ironic that you are criticizing where I got my information when your source can be community edited by unknown people.

It can also be edited by knowledgeable people. If there is a new matchup chart, people should just update that one. In general, Smashwiki is pretty accurate on most topics, for example they correctly have that PM's meteor cancel window is 16 frames when a lot of people incorrectly thought it was 8.

Regardless, there should be enough evidence to indicate that you were wrong in your assumption that Jiggs's only good MUs are against space animals. Not only does she lose to Fox, but she wouldn't be high tier if she lost to every character in the game lol.

Note that I never claimed she lost, just that she didn't do especially well against them, which would become an issue if they got big buffs and she didn't. That might still be a bit debatable, but I think it's clear enough that Jiggs has problems vs a number of characters in this game.

I have a completely silly idea, but I was listening to a discussion on ICs chain grabs and someone validly pointed out that people whine about ICs grabs and try to ban wobbling, yet no one complains about Jigglypuff's rest which is easier to perform and has a bigger effect on the game. Why? Because it's quick, it's not slow and frustrating and boring.

I really just feel that the ICs need to do a bit more damage and have slightly more knockback on kill moves, to make up for the loss of their old fobble techs.

 

[Praxis]

I really just feel that the ICs need to do a bit more damage and have slightly more knockback on kill moves, to make up for the loss of their old fobble techs.

...the thing is, I liked fighting ICs with the chain grab legal. It was scary, and deep. They landed their weak hits because I was scared of the grab, and I was camping for opportunities to hit Nana. Then once I landed a hit on Nana it went in to crazy combo territory.

The intense "I must play perfect" feel against ICs is one of my favorite matchups.

Taking away the threat of their grab and then buffing their other moves takes away that fear element that made that matchup so interesting. It's like nerfing Zangief's grabs in Street Fighter and buffing his other attacks to make up for it. Sure, you can keep a balanced character that way, but what makes Zangief fun is to make everyone so scared of your grab that you can land other things on them.

I'd really like for ICs to be buffed in a way that makes it really scary to get grabbed. Leave their other moves at Melee strengths.

 

[Terotrous]

...the thing is, I liked fighting ICs with the chain grab legal. It was scary, and deep. They landed their weak hits because I was scared of the grab, and I was camping for opportunities to hit Nana. Then once I landed a hit on Nana it went in to crazy combo territory.

The intense "I must play perfect" feel against ICs is one of my favorite matchups.

Taking away the threat of their grab and then buffing their other moves takes away that fear element that made that matchup so interesting. It's like nerfing Zangief's grabs in Street Fighter and buffing his other attacks to make up for it. Sure, you can keep a balanced character that way, but what makes Zangief fun is to make everyone so scared of your grab that you can land other things on them.

I'd really like for ICs to be buffed in a way that makes it really scary to get grabbed. Leave their other moves at Melee strengths.

I kind of agree, though I hated fighting the ICs, you did have to play a certain way vs them before. You really wanted to look for opportunities to split them up and kill Nana, but now it barely matters since Nana isn't a real threat. I feel that buffing their damage output somewhat indirectly buffs Nana, since the little hits she puts in would add up a lot more. Similarly, buffing the power of FSmash and USmash makes their grabs a little more potent.

It's probably not a perfect solution, but it's the best I can come up with that doesn't massively change how they work.

 

[Giygacoal]

I agree with some posts here. People just need to learn how to edgeguard properly.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

People are so nutty about nerfing stuff. I'll see a billion people call to nerf things new characters have (say, Diddy's fair) that aren't as good as stuff top Melee characters have that get a free pass because people want the same characters (Fox upsmash, Jigglypuff bair and rest, Peach dsmash, Marth's fair). Let's be straight up- I don't think there are very many things that need to be nerfed at all in PM at this point. Let's be even more straight- the top Melee characters have dumb stuff, and most characters will need at least one dumb thing to be able to compete. Some weak characters need to be buffed, and maybe one or two characters need minor nerfs, but that's really it. If a character isn't as good as Fox/Marth, there's no reason to try to nerf them.


I have a completely silly idea, but I was listening to a discussion on ICs chain grabs and someone validly pointed out that people whine about ICs grabs and try to ban wobbling, yet no one complains about Jigglypuff's rest which is easier to perform and has a bigger effect on the game. Why? Because it's quick, it's not slow and frustrating and boring.

So...why not give ICs a "Rest"? Say, something that Nana can perform that only affects a player if Popo is holding them and does a ton of damage/knockback like Rest does. For example, make it so that if Nana footstools a grabbed opponent, the opponent takes a powerful hit.

Thus, ICs get their Melee/Brawl gameplay logic ("don't get grabbed") and grab setups back without a bunch of stupid infinites, spectators won't get mad at wobbling, ICs will be good again, and it's not 100% guaranteed out of grabs because you have time to mash out while Nana gets in position.

Marth, Peach and Jiggs clearly need no nerf... If you consider Marth as the ultimate top right now (even if together with Fox who is still top tier), you are not aware of the weaknesses some of the Melee characters get in the new surrounding.

ICs will get that down-throw release point fix or sth. and they will have at least sth. similar to handoffs and they will be fine. Btw. ICs have great chaingrabs right now, no zero-to-deaths, but a TAS Ice Climber could take your stock with 2-3 grabs. Not only chaingrabs, also desync combos leading to regrabs and so on...

A rest is clearly more difficult to setup than a grab, even if the difficulty is really hard, because that hasn't really an effect at highest level of play.

I agree that not many things should be nerfed now, only things which have ridiculous concepts. Sometimes a character is not broken but the design has issues. A nerf then would be ok but I would give the character sth. back.
For example, if the community decides the chaingrab of a character (not top tier) is somehow stupid its OK to nerf it, but maybe buff another move?

 

[Praxis]

Marth, Peach and Jiggs clearly need no nerf... If you consider Marth as the ultimate top right now (even if together with Fox who is still top tier), you are not aware of the weaknesses some of the Melee characters get in the new surrounding.

ICs will get that down-throw release point fix or sth. and they will have at least sth. similar to handoffs and they will be fine. Btw. ICs have great chaingrabs right now, no zero-to-deaths, but a TAS Ice Climber could take your stock with 2-3 grabs. Not only chaingrabs, also desync combos leading to regrabs and so on...

A rest is clearly more difficult to setup than a grab, even if the difficulty is really hard, because that hasn't really an effect at highest level of play.

I agree that not many things should be nerfed now, only things which have ridiculous concepts. Sometimes a character is not broken but the design has issues. A nerf then would be ok but I would give the character sth. back.
For example, if the community decides the chaingrab of a character (not top tier) is somehow stupid its OK to nerf it, but maybe buff another move?

I didn't say Peach and Jiggs needed nerfs, just that they have moves that are really good, and less good than moves people want to nerf on new characters.

Good stuff Melee characters have are safe, but if you were to give, say, Squirtle Peach's dsmash, everyone would scream that it's broken and stupid and needs to be nerfed.

 

[Soft Serve]

Shell shift Dsmash would be so brokennnn

 

[Praxis]

Shell shift Dsmash would be so brokennnn

Okay, bad example. Toon Link.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You are right about that one I couldn't even imagine the whining about shines, knees etc. if the Brawl characters would be released first.

 

[Professor Pro]

Oh god, is this gonna turn into another Pro vs Reflex battle?

Another? Was there ever a first lol?
Unless you're using the word 'Pro' to describe really good players...

 

[Apollo Ali]

He probably got Reflex confused with Rolex.

 

[MLGF]

*edit*
NINJAS

Oh shoot, I said Reflex instead of Rolex.
OK, well that's smooth of me.

 

[Player -0]

I was looking and people were comparing some stuff to Jiggz' rest.

One was shine.... Which is a frame one hitbox like Rest... That's about it.
- Rest is inside Jiggz, is a kill move, and is crazy punishable if you miss.
- Shine is around Fox, gimps, and is a combo move.

You could say they're both OoS moves/anti-combo but eh.

Then it was Rest vs. IC's grabs.
- IC's grabs/wobble/CG's needs both of them, is fairly punishable (It's a grab), and requires decent technical skill.
- Rest: Same as above.

So they both do a ton of damage. IC's grab/wobble needs the partner (default Nana) while Rest's drawback is the small hitbox and crazy unsafe.



I just don't understand the comparison between very drastically different moves.
Of course there are rest setups that can usually confirm into a rest but if you mess it up or your opponent instantly dies off the side then dead Jiggz too.

 

[Praxis]

I was looking and people were comparing some stuff to Jiggz' rest.

One was shine.... Which is a frame one hitbox like Rest... That's about it.
- Rest is inside Jiggz, is a kill move, and is crazy punishable if you miss.
- Shine is around Fox, gimps, and is a combo move.

You could say they're both OoS moves/anti-combo but eh.

Then it was Rest vs. IC's grabs.
- IC's grabs/wobble/CG's needs both of them, is fairly punishable (It's a grab), and requires decent technical skill.
- Rest: Same as above.

So they both do a ton of damage. IC's grab/wobble needs the partner (default Nana) while Rest's drawback is the small hitbox and crazy unsafe.



I just don't understand the comparison between very drastically different moves.
Of course there are rest setups that can usually confirm into a rest but if you mess it up or your opponent instantly dies off the side then dead Jiggz too.

The comparison is that they're all extremely powerful moves that no one complains about because they are from Melee.

But half the stuff people cry "nerf" to on PM characters are weaker than these entrenched Melee ideas.

I'm saying Rest and Wobbling and Shine are all better moves than half the moves people want to nerf. Those characters need those tools to compete with Melee top tiers.

 

[Player -0]

The comparison is that they're all extremely powerful moves that no one complains about because they are from Melee.

But half the stuff people cry "nerf" to on PM characters are weaker than these entrenched Melee ideas.

I'm saying Rest and Wobbling and Shine are all better moves than half the moves people want to nerf. Those characters need those tools to compete with Melee top tiers.

I don't spek 4 da PEE EM BEE ARRR but I asssoom:

The PMBR is trying to make solid characters without an polarizing move like shine. I see your point of having a really good move but overpolarizing/good in all situation moves aren't what we want.

In my opinion rest is kind of worse than wobbling and shine because of the character it's on and the punishability of the move. These two things combined makes it an important factor but restricts its uses if the Jiggz is playing a Fox that's up 2 stocks on them. This is because the Fox can throw one of the stocks away by getting hit by rest and DI'ing down so they can come back and punish with free shiny red thingies until Up-Smash kill percent. As opposed to Shine and Wobbling having much less risk. (Maybe shine if they go for shine gimps and get a turnaround).

Edit - Rest is ubbah awsum in Dubz dough.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

uhhh idk I'd say zelda toe is about on the same level as falcon knee

 

[trash?]

the knee is a move which is designed to be converted into by other moves (grabs and dairs and the like), because flowing through moves are kind of falcon's gig

the toe is a spacing tool first and foremost, because unless you can convert with some din's fires it's not as comboable

trying to compare single moves in a vacuum is completely useless, because it forgets that a good move is only as good as the moves that can set it up, and follow it up