Tier List Speculation

[Thor]

nah m2k is *** and gets carried by fox.

I laughed. Then I wondered how someone was able to delude themselves this successfully.

 

[Paradoxium]

I laughed. Then I wondered how someone was able to delude themselves this successfully.

People literally think that about every spacie main except m2k

Ok I do believe that Fox's combination of high speed, safe pressure, and kill power deserves to be tweaked by the pmbr, but I do not agree with everyone saying that they are no skill and super overpowered. Even if someone wins with a spacie I believe that their win was earned, and was obtained because of their skill and not because of their character.

But if the pmbr sees it fit to nerf/tweak those characters then they should be able to do so.

And I still don't think Fox and Falco are the best in the game

 

[MLGF]

I don't know if I'm at that level where I'm "good enough" to make a claim about balance... but EVERY match I lose, I generally blame the loss on simply being outplayed and I have never felt that it was the characters fault.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I dont mean it that way, they deserve their success. My main point is diddy still has room for further great achievement in the hands of the right player.

Also its diddys dthrow, which can be DI'd but the only thing you can do is tech the ground. Im not sure if thats true for every character, but I played Okamis diddy and he would just read the tech and grab you again anyways on several characters. Disqo didnt think you could either but Okami seemed very skilled and better at it.

Floaties cannot DI down to tech very often. Fast fallers like: , , , , , , etc. can always DI down and tech.

In terms of your earlier post, the only characters cg's is like // and it's miniscule. It only really happens on like FD. cg's to like 40% then gets a follow up.

I've been using this character only for a month now. I've already donated a bunch of my knowledge to the 's that I ascertained through labbing. My region has 3 good 's who I'd consider tourney threats at the moment (Boss, me, Junebug). Be ready for SKTAR's results!

, , , and are also better then .

I don't know if I'm at that level where I'm "good enough" to make a claim about balance... but EVERY match I lose, I generally blame the loss on simply being outplayed and I have never felt that it was the characters fault.

That's a good mindset! Most mid/low level players have the opposite mindset though @_@. This applies to all smash games tho and not just PM lol. PM just has the ability to be patched, which is why people will complain more often because they think they can sometimes have their wish come true.

Afk sleep.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Only matches I've really seen, are the chillin matches.
Not impressed there.

 

[Cassio]

Floaties cannot DI down to tech very often. Fast fallers like: , , , , , , etc. can always DI down and tech.

In terms of your earlier post, the only characters cg's is like // and it's miniscule. It only really happens on like FD. cg's to like 40% then gets a follow up.

Yeah its a pseudo chaingrab, but if your only option is to tech the ground cant you just react to the tech case and grab them again anyways? Thats what happened to me. Maybe Im overreacting to the pseudo-CG since I thought it was complete BS as it happened, but I remember Disqo saying he couldnt do it and then Okami pulling it off.

Also I do not think diddy should be nerfed atm but IF he is I think the only thing worth hitting (besides no CG thing) is his recovery. Diddy is annoying in Brawl too but at least you could handle him offstage. His recovery isnt too good or anything but I feel like his brawl one provided a decent weakness for him. I wouldnt be super opposed to upthrow killing a little later either.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Uhhh... U-Throw already kills mad late though??

 

[jtm94]

Uhhh... U-Throw already kills mad late though??

Seconded. Diddy's Up throw KOs incredibly late. This is both tested and confirmed.

 

[Cassio]

Im not gonna say diddys throw needs to be weaker or that it kills too early. But lets not underestimate how incredibly good having a throw that kills is, especially on a character as fast and good at landing grabs as diddy is.

 

[didds]

for some reason I just thought about Lucas

eh, prolly nuthin

 

[Terotrous]

How are the ICs holding up?

IMO ICs are one of the worst characters in the game. Pretty much all of their chaingrabs and long combos were removed for being "lame", and they weren't given anything significant back to compensate for it, so they've dropped a ton. Now they're just a weak and character that gets even more hilariously weak after you hit one of them a few times.

LETS DISCUSS FATTIES TOO
Dedede Bowser DK and Zard

Charizard and DK are both at least kind of viable. DK has ridiculous grab combos, decent range, and is a bit faster than he looks, though his recovery is probably the most easily gimped in the entire game. Charizard is really mobile for a big guy, nair is crazy, and he still hits hard, so he's probably the best big guy overall. Unfortunately, all big guys are super susceptible to projectiles and enemy combos due to their size, so I don't see any of them getting above mid. Apart from Fox, the best characters in this game tend to have no serious drawbacks.

 

[DMG]

DK does not have the most gimpable recovery in the game. I'd easily give that title to Bowser instead of DK

 

[Terotrous]

DK does not have the most gimpable recovery in the game. I'd easily give that title to Bowser instead of DK

They're very similar, but I think Whirling Fortress is better than Spinning Kong. It doesn't last as long, which allows it to grab the ledge a lot quicker, and it's better protected from the top. DK's Spinning Kong is just begging for a Dair whenever it comes out.

Granted, I guess it does depend on the type of gimp. DK is better protected from some projectiles since Spinning Kong can clank them. He seems super vulnerable to offstage edge guarding though.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Kirk and Rat played recently, it's kind of a hassle for Bowser to get back. Protecting your sides when your recovery is horizontal is really important.

 

[didds]

Ganon is pretty darn gimpable, but I guess his sideB helps a ton

 

[Terotrous]

Actually, that brings up a pretty relevant point regarding how good each character's recovery is, since that's a pretty important point in the overall quality of a character. I would tend to look at it like this:


Recovery Tier List: (not ordered within tiers)


Godlike: (Can recover safely from practically anywhere, generally the only way to kill them is to kill them outright)




Great: (Still very strong, but may have issues if jump is lost or vs very strong edgeguarding)




Okay: (Decent, but unremarkable or potentially unreliable)




Bad: (Poor range, can't recover from many locations):




Horrible: (Very poor range or very easily gimped)




Feel free to debate positions but I think this is decent. In general, recoveries in this game are pretty powerful. I think it's interesting that every character whose recovery is bad or worse is a Melee vet who got no recovery buffs.

 

[Radical Larry]

Almost every character is gimpable, but they tend to have ways around it. Link and Toon Link with AGT, Ganondorf with Flame Choke, Bowser with Super Armor attacks, Pikachu just isn't (until hit by Link's F-Tilt, no joke), and more.

Actually, that brings up a pretty relevant point regarding how good each character's recovery is, since that's a pretty important point in the overall quality of a character. I would tend to look at it like this:


Recovery Tier List: (not ordered within tiers)


Godlike: (Can recover safely from practically anywhere, generally the only way to kill them is to kill them outright)




Great: (Still very strong, but may have issues if jump is lost or vs very strong edgeguarding)




Okay: (Decent, but unremarkable or potentially unreliable)




Bad: (Poor range, can't recover from many locations):




Horrible: (Very poor range or very easily gimped)




Feel free to debate positions but I think this is decent. In general, recoveries in this game are pretty powerful. I think it's interesting that every character whose recovery is bad or worse is a Melee vet who got no recovery buffs.

Eh, I don't even think Toon Link deserves where he is; place Link there and put Toon Link on the bottom.

 

[Ripple]

you need to bump DDD up 2 tiers

 

[mimgrim]

Eh, I don't even think Toon Link deserves where he is; place Link there and put Toon Link on the bottom.

Wat. Please tell me you mean bottom of godlike tier and not horrible tier. e_e

Actually, that brings up a pretty relevant point regarding how good each character's recovery is, since that's a pretty important point in the overall quality of a character. I would tend to look at it like this:


Recovery Tier List: (not ordered within tiers)


Godlike: (Can recover safely from practically anywhere, generally the only way to kill them is to kill them outright)




Great: (Still very strong, but may have issues if jump is lost or vs very strong edgeguarding)




Okay: (Decent, but unremarkable or potentially unreliable)




Bad: (Poor range, can't recover from many locations):




Horrible: (Very poor range or very easily gimped)




Feel free to debate positions but I think this is decent. In general, recoveries in this game are pretty powerful. I think it's interesting that every character whose recovery is bad or worse is a Melee vet who got no recovery buffs.

I would honestly put Ness in okay tier. It has good range. But unless you do it from very down low, to where it is too risky for the opponent, his is easily gimped just by getting in the way of Thunder.

Also, from what I understnad, Pit has great horizontal recovery but lackluster vertical, so wouldn't he potientally be better off in great tier. Honestly, the only one I would put in godlike is probably Mewtwo.

 

[didds]

maybe pikachu too

 

[MLGF]

Fox is low... because?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Ha, how is Ganon not bottom tier on the recovery list?

I mean, I love the guy, but come on. His recovery is still terribad, even with Flame Choke and his other new tricks.

 

[CORY]

the bigger question is: how is fox in "low range and cannot recover from many locations"? falco has low range, yes, i'll concede that; but fox has pretty solid range, along with being able to use a variety of angles, along with the ability to free fall afterward for more mixups (all of which falco can use), and they can also move very quickly after landing.

and then, they have a fast mixup to use with their overb, which requires a different coverage option for most characters, than if they even do upb to the side.

 

[Terotrous]

you need to bump DDD up 2 tiers

I definitely wouldn't put him in the very top tier, simply because his recovery doesn't have quite as much versatility or safety that some of the others have. Compare GW, who also has amazing vertical recovery, but is free to act afterwards, while DDD is not (and GW is only in Great). He might potentially make the Great tier based on his numerous jumps, but I felt his overall size acted against him to some degree.

Wat. Please tell me you mean bottom of godlike tier and not horrible tier. e_e

It's not ordered within the tiers. Also, some people still don't know about AGTs.

I would honestly put Ness in okay tier. It has good range. But unless you do it from very down low, to where it is too risky for the opponent, his is easily gimped just by getting in the way of Thunder.

The thunder absorb trick isn't nearly as easy to do now, PK Thunder's projectile travels faster, making it a lot safer overall. It's surprising just how viable it is now if used correctly.

Also, from what I understnad, Pit has great horizontal recovery but lackluster vertical, so wouldn't he potientally be better off in great tier. Honestly, the only one I would put in godlike is probably Mewtwo.

His vertical recovery is still pretty solid thanks to his many jumps. I did debate between Godlike and Great for him (Charizard, who is somewhat similar to Pit in terms of recovery, got booted to Great for being a big target).

maybe pikachu too

I hope you mean Pikachu being solidly Godlike rather than getting booted down to Great. I don't think Great is defensible for him, both Side B and Up B are fantastic recovery moves, Up B is virtually unchallengeable.

Fox is low... because?

Poor horizontal range due to his gravity and poor vertical recovery thanks to startup on Fire Fox. Fox Illusion is decent when near the stage, but If sent far or below the stage, he's probably not coming back. I also feel that Wolf is clearly better than the other two at recovering, his Up B comes out quicker and is safer while travelling, and his Side B also moves upwards a bit, allowing him to recover from farther away.

Fox is maybe borderline between Okay and Bad. He's certainly not Great in any case, which is about the only thing that keeps him from being ridiculously OP.

Ha, how is Ganon not bottom tier on the recovery list?

I mean, I love the guy, but come on. His recovery is still terribad, even with Flame Choke and his other new tricks.

Well he is still in Bad. His recovery is clearly better than Falcon's thanks to lower Gravity and Up B going a little farther, though. The risk of Ganoncide also makes offstage punishes against him a little riskier.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Well he is still in Bad. His recovery is clearly better than Falcon's thanks to lower Gravity and Up B going a little farther, though. The risk of Ganoncide also makes offstage punishes against him a little riskier.

Sure, his recovery is indeed better than Falcon's, for what that's worth.

Still though, unless you're bad, it should really only take a single conscious thought to kill an offstage Ganon.

 

[Terotrous]

Sure, his recovery is indeed better than Falcon's, for what that's worth.

Still though, unless you're bad, it should really only take a single conscious thought to kill an offstage Ganon.

The thing with recovery is that you're safest when you have multiple options available, even if it's simply the difference between grab ledge and land onstage. As you get sent further away, some of these options start to disappear (because they simply won't reach), making your recovery less and less effective.

The reason Ganon isn't bottom is because the range where he becomes limited to only very predictable recovery options is slightly farther away than the characters in the tier below him. At their maximum recovery distance, sure, they might all be equally horrible, but Ganon's is a bit farther away.

Ganon UpB is also a pretty high-quality meteor cancel, for what that's worth (contrast poor DK, who has easily the game's worst meteor cancel options).

 

[Tommy_G]

ZSS needs to be a lot higher here. She is probably the best character in the game now with her neutral b dash canceling and needs nerfs asap.

 

[Deleted member]

the unnecessary "methods" used to quantify characters in this thread is hilarious.

 

[didds]

I definitely meant pikachu as possible godlike in reply to whoever mentioned that it's probably only m2

 

[NickLeo]

Diddy's recovery really isn't that godlike. It's great at best

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Diddy's recovery is godlike if for some reason you forget that you can grab the edge.

 

[mimgrim]

the unnecessary "methods" used to quantify characters in this thread is hilarious.

Yea.

But I like to do stupid stuff when I am bored.

I definitely meant pikachu as possible godlike in reply to whoever mentioned that it's probably only m2

That would have been me. the name's mimgrim.

 

[Thor]

People literally think that about every spacie main except m2k
Ok I do believe that Fox's combination of high speed, safe pressure, and kill power deserves to be tweaked by the pmbr, but I do not agree with everyone saying that they are no skill and super overpowered. Even if someone wins with a spacie I believe that their win was earned, and was obtained because of their skill and not because of their character.
But if the pmbr sees it fit to nerf/tweak those characters then they should be able to do so.
And I still don't think Fox and Falco are the best in the game

People can have their own opinions (and be wrong in my opinion), but M2K played Marth versus Sethlon game 1 and won, and he plays Mewtwo versus various people who are competent at the game (He took a game off of Hbox's Puff with Mewtwo).

Admittedly M2K seems to use Fox when he's less certain of an MU, or is really familiar with it (Fox-Puff), but there's a plethora of matches where M2K wins and doesn't use Fox, so the assertion that he only wins because he uses Fox is on-point denied. And M2K is really really good in Melee and Brawl, where in Melee he uses a lot of Sheik/Marth, with Fox for Hbox and some other Puffs, and he still places fairly well in Brawl, MK-banned or not. So to say M2K is bad is actually what I felt was delusional about his post - I can see why some would say that Fox really helps him get wins, given his Apex loss to Armada had his pair of wins in GFs playing as Fox (though to say Fox carries him is a gross misrepresentation of, and in contradiction with, the data).

I don't know who the best is, but I'd think most would agree with me that they're still likely at least top 5ish. Incidentally, did you post somewhere who you think the best are in 3.02? I'd be curious to read your thoughts on the matter.

EDIT: Responding to other stuff on the page

Godlike: (Can recover safely from practically anywhere, generally the only way to kill them is to kill them outright)




Great: (Still very strong, but may have issues if jump is lost or vs very strong edgeguarding)




Okay: (Decent, but unremarkable or potentially unreliable)




Bad: (Poor range, can't recover from many locations):




Horrible: (Very poor range or very easily gimped)

I'd say (without that much time spent theorycrafting on it) bump TL down at least one, his recovery isn't THAT strong - he has issues without a jump. ROB is definitely someone who has issues with great edgeguarding - getting hit back out once is big trouble, since I don't think he gets his boosts back - I'd bump him down one too. If Pit is hit back once, his options become more limited, maybe drop him one (maybe not). Samus's recovery is in my opinion arguably the bottom of godlike (based on how it's currently structured by you - her tether is great and bomb jumps). MK's recovery is flexible indeed, but I don't know that it's flexible enough to move up (this is my own thoughts - I considered suggesting a move up, then said never mind and wrote this). Dedede probably belongs up at least one tier - his aerial glide toss is great and he has plenty of jumps, despite his size. I think Snake's might be very bottom of Great, or else near the top of Okay [I know it's not ordered within tiers], but that's just my experience. Roy should also move up one [maybe] because while Blazer's distance is garbage, I don't believe one can CC it (at least for very long) and it has silly range on the hitbox - if your DI is good it's in my opinion not tougher to get back than with a space animal [he'd be bottom of the tier though]. While only applicable to teams, if you have a teammate at low percents, Wolf's recovery in teams would move up within the OK tier [I don't think bottom of great] if they're able to eat a sweetspot side+b to help you out.

Just my two cents.

 

[Deleted member]

Eh, I don't even think Toon Link deserves where he is; place Link there and put Toon Link on the bottom.

You obviously haven't played vs a good toonlink before. Toonlink can recover from nearly anywhere.

 

[Giygacoal]

Power Suit Samus should be higher in the recovery tier list imo. She's both heavy and great at recovering.

Are there any good tutorials on how to recover with Toon Link? I can't get AGT down consistently. I'm even better at super wavedashing...

 

[DMG]

AGT is really easy to do, if you just hold the stick in the direction you want to boost. I think the majority of people mess it up by trying to flick the direction they want, or by airdodging first then trying to boost one way.


The lazy man method dictates that you hold the direction you want to AGT, even if it's way before you actually airdodge. So if you want to bomb jump over the stage for practice, you get the bomb out and you just hold up for as long as you want. Then get airborne and airdodge, cancelling the airdodge with a C-stick direction to toss the bomb that way. You should definitely boost upward, and the bomb will go wherever you hit the C-stick.


If you can get some kind of AGT boost, but can't seem to bomb jump well with TL, that's not entirely your fault. His timing appears to be much stricter than Link, probably due to how his Upb does not "hang" in the air as long as Link. It's much easier to get a bomb jump with Link with even sloppy AGT. TL will require better timing on the AGT (since the timing you cancel it at IIRC affects the distance you can get).

 

[SpiderMad]

yes, practice normal air dodging as far as possible then go back to AGT'ing and repeat or so forth. I've wanted to create a comprehensive AGT tutorial but I feel like if I want it to be stupendous I'd need assistance

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah, but I still like TL's fast-falling a lot better than Link's fallspeed. I seriously can't go ham as Link at all but TL's aerials seem to want to flow into each other.

 

[didds]

That would have been me. the name's mimgrim.

mimgrim mimgrim mimgrim mimgrim mimgrim got it, the big picture frightened me

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, but I still like TL's fast-falling a lot better than Link's fallspeed. I seriously can't go ham as Link at all but TL's aerials seem to want to flow into each other.

Toonlink, link, and sheik all have the same regular and fast fall speed
lol