Let's give Sheik the ability to throw six needles every time without charging.
pls
pls
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
it should make you happy
Sheik is love
Sheik is life
Sheik is love
Sheik is life
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
How does Chicago not get mentioned as one of the strongest regions when:
A. They have been obviously one of the best regions for a long time along with DFW. SoCal probably contends. idk about MDVA and Florida is like really deep 1-4 but past that idk man.
B. The have the BH3 (the second largest PM tournament iirc) winner (Kirk).
This is imo pretty crazy. I guess all the new people in 3.0 haven't bothered to do their research really.
Also idk I would love a Sheik that always gets 6 needles. RIP recoveries.
A. They have been obviously one of the best regions for a long time along with DFW. SoCal probably contends. idk about MDVA and Florida is like really deep 1-4 but past that idk man.
B. The have the BH3 (the second largest PM tournament iirc) winner (Kirk).
This is imo pretty crazy. I guess all the new people in 3.0 haven't bothered to do their research really.
Also idk I would love a Sheik that always gets 6 needles. RIP recoveries.
Last edited:
The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
We should all listen to this guy.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Oh Okay lets buff sheik with 6 needles instantly but toonlink should stay the same
cool game
cool game
Nguz95
Smash Lord
I am unsure, but you might be in the wrong thread. However, to address your concern, I believe Chicago is often mentioned as a top region, you're just not seeing it. They do have the benefit of an amazing stream, and their players place very high in national tournaments.
Sheik's already really close to top tier. The only thing she really needs is to get side B tether reinstated.
We'll just make T Link's bombs explode with needles going in every direction.
And he now gets 2 midair jumps.
Pikachu can act out of UpB.
Bowser gets rest.
Jigglypuff's sing is now a projectile that still puts people to sleep still. (I can't possibly imagine how this might be abused so that's a plus.)
Squirtle is now the same weight as batman.
Everyone has swords, except for Marth, who will instead have the same grab range as Samus and falco's laser as every standard attack. I guess he can keep dair or something so his new style isn't too polarizing.
Wow work is boring
Last edited:
AZ is really deep... fyi
D
Deleted member
Guest
If you wanted to make toonlink stupid/slightly broken you'd make his bombs blow up on shield instead of making them bounce off. The amount of shield stun from that would be insane, you pretty much wouldn't be allowed to shield lol
Radical Larry
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2014
- Messages
- 1,994
- Location
- The Pocket Dimension
- NNID
- Crimson-Vulcan
- 3DS FC
- 1822-3761-9326
To be serious, I think that the characters with tether recoveries should recieve a buff like Lucario, in which they are able to grab the opponent and throw them downwards. I mean, they are fully capable of grabbing on the ground, so they should do the same in the air, as well.
holy mother of radical that would mess with a lot of people's zair games.
but maybe not for the worse.
Samus and Link would jump up to god tier real quick though.
Imagine a good Samus zone pressuring you, you're stuck in shield, and now they can jump > positional airdodge > fast zair > throw down into tech chase.
but maybe not for the worse.
Samus and Link would jump up to god tier real quick though.
Imagine a good Samus zone pressuring you, you're stuck in shield, and now they can jump > positional airdodge > fast zair > throw down into tech chase.
Radical Larry
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2014
- Messages
- 1,994
- Location
- The Pocket Dimension
- NNID
- Crimson-Vulcan
- 3DS FC
- 1822-3761-9326
A throwing tether's better than a hitting tether, especially if it's a meteor.
In hindsight I'm really glad that my 3000th post is just a Shaq.
I actually think this would be great for Pichu if he got back in. Of course, his UpB hurts him, so you can't abuse it too much.
Anyway, I really don't think air throws work with Smash's general design. Especially not tether air throws. Being in the air is already dangerous enough.
Last edited:
Bryonato
Green Hat
"needs"
Assuming our goal is to bring everyone up to the same level, of course.
That's making the assumption that Sheik isn't already at that level.
True, but it seems to be the general consensus that she's not quite there yet.
Even if she's borderline, I don't think that's enough to go beyond someone like Fox. IIRC, the range on her tether isn't great (and it's not a Zair so no airdodging into it), it just makes it slightly harder to ledgehog her.
General consensus?
Sure, I see a lot of people undervalue her and place her below characters that are seen on stream often or just plain "flashy" and "exciting" characters.
Yet at the same time there are still plenty of people putting her in top 5 contention still.
If you just listen to @Umbreon talk about Sheik in PM for like five minutes it's easy to see.
Sure, I see a lot of people undervalue her and place her below characters that are seen on stream often or just plain "flashy" and "exciting" characters.
Yet at the same time there are still plenty of people putting her in top 5 contention still.
If you just listen to @Umbreon talk about Sheik in PM for like five minutes it's easy to see.
BluntedMask
Smash Apprentice
Shiek is fine, her dthrow just doesn't set up free tech chases all day like melee.
I suppose we'll see. I think she's still pretty good, but she got nerfs from Melee while a lot of people got a lot better, so it seems fairly clear she'll have dropped at least a little. In particular, her recovery now stands out as being pretty weak, which I don't feel is really justified.
She had the tether recovery at one point in development and I can say from experience that it was a bit silly and removed for good reason. Granted, when she had it it was with the old tether mechanics which improved not only her recovery but also her already outstanding edgeguarding. While the new mechanics no longer really improve edgeguarding it would improve her recovery yet further to the point where it's not really a character weakness anymore.
Please stop my vines can only get so erect.
True, with that tether I think her recovery would be about average. However, from a design standpoint, I don't really see why she has that drawback. Her offense is no longer especially dominating now that tons of other people have similar throw combos or great tech chases. For example, I feel that Lucas easily matches her in terms of pressure and offensive power, yet he is still allowed to have a tether (and it's a better tether, too, since it's a Zair vs a B move).
Last edited:
Mera Mera
Smash Journeyman
I would put Sheik in the top 5.
Sheik didn't only get nerfs, she got buffs as well. A lot of people underestimate said buffs / don't understand how her grab game works now, and so they underrate her.
Nerf: Shiek can no longer use d-throw to set up for a tech chase for a huge range of percents against semi-fast fallers and fast fallers.
Buff: d-throw is faster and b-throw is a now a combo throw and a DI-mixup for d-throw.
No or bad DI on d-throw and b-throw leads to anything (particularly f-tilt which at most percents leads to any aerial). The faster d-throw increases the occurrence of bad/no DI. The DI-mix up of b-throw and d-throw also increases the occurrence of no/bad di. Now here's the part that most people don't understand: if they DI correctly, Sheik still has follow-ups. She has needles, dash attack, and depending on percents dash -> crouch -> dsmash. The thing is, this was true in Melee, but only if she wasn't facing a nearby ledge. If she was facing a nearby ledge, you can't run after them (though you can still do needles, but it only means much if you have them charged). Now that she has b-throw, which works the same way as d-throw but throws them the opposite direction, she can follow up even on good DI regardless of stage position (except maybe grabbing from a platform). Unlike Melee Sheik, the edge does not save you. Against Melee Sheik DIing off the ledge also saved you from tech chases, mind you.
So Sheik is now better against floaties imo. And since tech chases still happen at a lot of percents against fast fallers, and at high percents she still has that ^, which is more likely to lead to a fair 'cause of the DI mix up, the match ups might be better. The only matchups against Sheik that I think that were helped a lot were fast fallers/semi-fast fallers with terrible techs (C. Falcon in particular). That said, the bad tech fast fallers/semi-fast fallers that were helped just went from unwinnable matchup against Sheik to a negative but workable matchup against Sheik.
While I like the idea of every move being useful (and thus I dislike her current side B), she would really need a notable nerf before getting ANY buff. Plus, as Plum said, her recovery is supposed to be her weakness, and that would significantly reduce said weakness.
Sheik didn't only get nerfs, she got buffs as well. A lot of people underestimate said buffs / don't understand how her grab game works now, and so they underrate her.
Nerf: Shiek can no longer use d-throw to set up for a tech chase for a huge range of percents against semi-fast fallers and fast fallers.
Buff: d-throw is faster and b-throw is a now a combo throw and a DI-mixup for d-throw.
No or bad DI on d-throw and b-throw leads to anything (particularly f-tilt which at most percents leads to any aerial). The faster d-throw increases the occurrence of bad/no DI. The DI-mix up of b-throw and d-throw also increases the occurrence of no/bad di. Now here's the part that most people don't understand: if they DI correctly, Sheik still has follow-ups. She has needles, dash attack, and depending on percents dash -> crouch -> dsmash. The thing is, this was true in Melee, but only if she wasn't facing a nearby ledge. If she was facing a nearby ledge, you can't run after them (though you can still do needles, but it only means much if you have them charged). Now that she has b-throw, which works the same way as d-throw but throws them the opposite direction, she can follow up even on good DI regardless of stage position (except maybe grabbing from a platform). Unlike Melee Sheik, the edge does not save you. Against Melee Sheik DIing off the ledge also saved you from tech chases, mind you.
So Sheik is now better against floaties imo. And since tech chases still happen at a lot of percents against fast fallers, and at high percents she still has that ^, which is more likely to lead to a fair 'cause of the DI mix up, the match ups might be better. The only matchups against Sheik that I think that were helped a lot were fast fallers/semi-fast fallers with terrible techs (C. Falcon in particular). That said, the bad tech fast fallers/semi-fast fallers that were helped just went from unwinnable matchup against Sheik to a negative but workable matchup against Sheik.
While I like the idea of every move being useful (and thus I dislike her current side B), she would really need a notable nerf before getting ANY buff. Plus, as Plum said, her recovery is supposed to be her weakness, and that would significantly reduce said weakness.
Last edited:
A DI mixup on her throw is still inferior to her ridiculous Melee chaingrabs. She could infinitely chaingrab like half the cast before, giving her a ton of 80-20 matchups. Obviously this was stupid and had to go, but it's still a nerf.
Also, getting followups from a throw just isn't notable anymore. Like half the cast gets a guaranteed followup off at least one of their throws at reasonable percents, regardless of DI. She is still nicely fast and juggles quite well, but I don't think that's quite enough to justify such poor recovery.
Let's change Sheik's Side B into grenades... because that makes sense for a medieval/magical fantasy setting 
Mera Mera
Smash Journeyman
I don't know if it'd be practical, but I always thought it'd be cool if the bombs were to explode from any fire damage so that you could shoot the bombs when they were near shields (if that makes sense), and to make it more practical, maybe make it so the bombs don't bounce that high from the shields(?) I don't know... as a Toon Link player, do you think that change would be usable at all or not really?
Btw... are you the toonlink I played wifi with in 2.6? I'm a Zard main (I may have used some DK or DDD back then), and I think I used the tag SATAN back then.
A: While I agree the matchups against semi fast fallers and fast fallers were quite bad because she could tech chase them on reaction and d-throw always gave a knockdown where they couldn't jump in time until high percents, they could literally tech towards the ledge so that the next grab when they DIed down and away she wouldn't be able to follow up. So uh... not a forever chain grab. Damn good, but not forever.
B: I failed to clarify this, but she has follow ups into dash attack and needles even at pretty high percents except maybe against floaties. That said, her grabs were **** against floaties in Melee and now she has at least a DI mix up to work off of... She basically has a Marth grab game against them.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Yeah I think I played wifi with you a long time ago.
I'm just happy it's actually going to be useful in Smash 4. The Zelda universe already has bombs, anyway, it's not that much of a stretch.Let's change Sheik's Side B into grenades... because that makes sense for a medieval/magical fantasy setting
Well yeah, AFAIK all infinite chaingrabs can be escaped using the ledge. They're still infinite midstage though.
That's a plus I guess, some people's stuff will stop working against floaties around 60-80%.
Incidentally, I should clarify that I think the changes the PMBR made to Sheik were pretty smart. Obviously, chaingrabbing most of the cast to death is not good design, giving her two useful throws and allowing you to mix it up between them is much better. However, I still think she could use the tether. As someone posted above, it was removed in an earlier version of the game, back before the tether limitations were in place, at which point it was probably stupid OP, but now I don't think it'd be nearly as gamebreaking.
jtm94
Smash Lord
Let's not forget that Chain Jacket is still in PM and Sheik can replace the chain's hitboxes with ANY of her hitboxes.
I hear swinging downsmash or fair around on a rope is pretty good. And I don't wanna hear it's hard to do, I just recently picked up Sheik and remembered it was in the game and I can do it 1 in 3 tries. If I practice I could actually make it an effective edge guard against any character who must recover to the edge.
She is mad good though. When I can just play patient Sheik and wait then punish with a grab into more grabs into ftilt, into dash attack, into nair, into another nair I think she's still pretty good.
Her recovery is poop for distance, but she has Zelda.
I hear swinging downsmash or fair around on a rope is pretty good. And I don't wanna hear it's hard to do, I just recently picked up Sheik and remembered it was in the game and I can do it 1 in 3 tries. If I practice I could actually make it an effective edge guard against any character who must recover to the edge.
She is mad good though. When I can just play patient Sheik and wait then punish with a grab into more grabs into ftilt, into dash attack, into nair, into another nair I think she's still pretty good.
Her recovery is poop for distance, but she has Zelda.
so teleporting is alright, being able to transform your very body (and hair color) at will makes sense, but something actually based in the real world is a bit far-fetched?Let's change Sheik's Side B into grenades... because that makes sense for a medieval/magical fantasy setting
???/???????