Tier List Speculation

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Really?!

Why does it feel like Tink sinks like a rock then while Link doesn't? I'll crack open training mode tonight.

In that case it's probably because Tink's JS and aerials are all faster. I just feel like Tink has better CQC options than the big one.

Also if Link falls as fast as Tink then everybody who yaks about Link's recovery being OP and Tink's sucking are now even more goddamned wrong.

Yes yes Up-B hang time tether length blah blah point is besides timing Tink's options are no worse than Link's and he can walljump to boot.

 

[jtm94]

Actually, that brings up a pretty relevant point regarding how good each character's recovery is, since that's a pretty important point in the overall quality of a character. I would tend to look at it like this:


Recovery Tier List: (not ordered within tiers)


Godlike: (Can recover safely from practically anywhere, generally the only way to kill them is to kill them outright)




Great: (Still very strong, but may have issues if jump is lost or vs very strong edgeguarding)




Okay: (Decent, but unremarkable or potentially unreliable)




Bad: (Poor range, can't recover from many locations):




Horrible: (Very poor range or very easily gimped)




Feel free to debate positions but I think this is decent. In general, recoveries in this game are pretty powerful. I think it's interesting that every character whose recovery is bad or worse is a Melee vet who got no recovery buffs.

I find a few issues with this:

Link and Toon Link can both use the same recovery techniques, they should not be separate.
Meta Knight's recovery is amazing from horizontal or vertical by use of tornado.
Wario's recovery is good if the waft is used, has good horizontal movement, but vertical isn't there. It's worse than the character's he's around.
DDD has AMAZING recovery. That isn't for debate. AGT waddle dee nets amazing horizontal and UpB can be canceled to sweetspot ledge.
Ike's recovery is actually quite fantastic when walls are in the equation. But without I guess not near as good.
Snake can C4 jump. His recovery is good. It isn't hard to do, just hard to not KO self at 100+ damage.
Fox's recovery isn't even that bad, better than those he is around.
Falco's recovery is the worst, much worse than Roy.

 

[didds]

Falco's recovery is okay above the ledge, sideB can go a long way, but I'd argue it becomes the worst in the game below the ledge and without a midair jump (excluding Yoshi of course). I'd still take Falco's tiny mixup over Roy's, even with the nice hitbox. Mixup is always a personal preference of mine though so I'm biased.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Toonlink, link, and sheik all have the same regular and fast fall speed
lol

Really?!

Why does it feel like Tink sinks like a rock then while Link doesn't? I'll crack open training mode tonight.

In that case it's probably because Tink's JS and aerials are all faster. I just feel like Tink has better CQC options than the big one.

Characters have gravity values as well that determine how long it takes them to reach their max falling speed, that might be a factor. They might be different between the above 3 idk.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Yeah its a pseudo chaingrab, but if your only option is to tech the ground cant you just react to the tech case and grab them again anyways? Thats what happened to me. Maybe Im overreacting to the pseudo-CG since I thought it was complete BS as it happened, but I remember Disqo saying he couldnt do it and then Okami pulling it off.

Also I do not think diddy should be nerfed atm but IF he is I think the only thing worth hitting (besides no CG thing) is his recovery. Diddy is annoying in Brawl too but at least you could handle him offstage. His recovery isnt too good or anything but I feel like his brawl one provided a decent weakness for him. I wouldnt be super opposed to upthrow killing a little later either.

You suck loooool.

 

[Cassio]

Or you do . It could just be me sucking and normally I wouldnt think anything of it, but Okami is the most skilled diddy Ive seen so part of me thinks other diddys just cant do it as well.

 

[Jolteon]

The "pseudo-chaingrab" is a tech-chase regrab and it's possible with some characters to cover all the tech options on reaction, Okami being able to do it is no surprise since he mains Sheik in Melee who does the same thing. Several characters (MK, Sheik etc.) have throws that are similar.

 

[trash?]

most diddy players I've seen are incredibly BnB tbh. not much special about them, and boss basically just plays him like mario with items

also, cripes do people STILL downplay MK? his recovery is amazing, because while it's big enough to last into "great" alone, he has so many options for what to do offstage that your best bet when edgeguarding is to play the hardest read of your entire life. glides and safeness and a vertical-as-hell neutralb and, if you're feeling particularly fancy, dimensional cape and just move it properly enough to circle around the ledge

 

[woundedust]

Mk is arguably best in game. Besides that dumb ass little monkey peepee decided to shed off his back onto us after apex

 

[trash?]

I always feel a bit iffy to say metaknight da bes recently, because all the great MK players... really don't travel much? and because a lot of the P:M community is honestly centered around MDVA b/c of that being the popular stream, you don't hear much outside of it, despite the fact that I don't honestly believe any diddy player in MDVA could last a second vs. regions like tx and fl

 

[Ripple]

just leave out chicago as a powerhouse. it's cool. I guess we'll be the secret boss region

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Does Chicago have a good Meta Knight? AFAIK it has a Zamus, 2/3 Wolves, a Dedede and a Kelly Smith. And Orly's Falcon maybe?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Also TX finally got Tourney Locator. New favorite stream. Prepare for everyone to think Roy is high tier, R.O.B needs nerfs and PK Fire should have its Ness toned down a bit.

Edit: Like seriously y'all just missed Awestin get 7 kills in dubs v/s Sethlon and Oracle. It was rad.

 

[shairn]

I wish PK Fire could be DI'd like Falco's uThrow lasers.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Prepare for everyone to think R.O.B needs nerfs

nooooooo

 

[mimgrim]

I wish PK Fire could be DI'd like Falco's uThrow lasers.

Ness would then need to be given more tools to use in the neutral game to compensate for that nerf to Fire. Which I wouldn't mind since more options are better. But don't just go nerfing Fire without compensating for it please. >_>

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I.m.o there's nothing wrong with a character designed around one strategy/move as long as it's a pretty universally viable one. (Within reason, everyone has bad MUs). It works for Falcon.

 

[Ripple]

Does Chicago have a good Meta Knight? AFAIK it has a Zamus, 2/3 Wolves, a Dedede and a Kelly Smith. And Orly's Falcon maybe?

we do have one, usually places around 9th-13th depending on how early he runs into one of us. Don't forget around our resident Link/Toon link: Lazarond, Kirk the bowser, and KirkQ the ROB who M2K says is the best ROB. (Like that really matters though lol)

 

[mimgrim]

I.m.o there's nothing wrong with a character designed around one strategy/move as long as it's a pretty universally viable one. (Within reason, everyone has bad MUs). It works for Falcon.

Well yea. I agree.

But if that one move were to get nerfed compensation would have to be made. >_>

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

we do have one, usually places around 9th-13th depending on how early he runs into one of us. Don't forget around our resident Link/Toon link: Lazarond, Kirk the bowser, and KirkQ the ROB who M2K says is the best ROB. (Like that really matters though lol)

Yeah I don't know if M2K has played Oracle's R.o.B, or JCaez. JCaes is mad rusty now anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

m2k played oracles rob at forte I think...?
@Oracle confirm this or something

 

[Terotrous]

Diddy's recovery really isn't that godlike. It's great at best

His distance isn't quite as amazing as some characters, what gives Diddy the boost is the way his rocketbarrel protects him from being punished when he lands onstage.

Link and Toon Link can both use the same recovery techniques, they should not be separate.

Tink can wall jump, which Link can't. He's also a smaller target, so it's harder to snipe him.

Meta Knight's recovery is amazing from horizontal or vertical by use of tornado.

He was borderline. Tornado isn't quite as godlike as it was in Brawl. His vertical recovery isn't the best out there.

Wario's recovery is good if the waft is used, has good horizontal movement, but vertical isn't there. It's worse than the character's he's around.

I don't think he's quite in Bad territory.

DDD has AMAZING recovery. That isn't for debate. AGT waddle dee nets amazing horizontal and UpB can be canceled to sweetspot ledge

My main issue with Up B is that's it's susceptible to just grabbing the ledge. If he has to recover onstage he's very punishable.

Ike's recovery is actually quite fantastic when walls are in the equation. But without I guess not near as good.

I feel he's solidly in okay tier. He'd definitely jump up a tier or two if QD didn't go to helpless.

Snake can C4 jump. His recovery is good. It isn't hard to do, just hard to not KO self at 100+ damage.

Cipher is one of the most easily interrupted Up Bs in the game.

Fox's recovery isn't even that bad, better than those he is around.

Maybe, but I feel he's also below the people above him. Might be a limitation of only having 5 tiers.

Falco's recovery is the worst, much worse than Roy.

I would agree if Falco Phantasm didn't exist. He might still be the lowest tier, but he's not dead worst.



Incidentally, I didn't consider a character's ability to get back to stage safely when knocked upwards. That is also important and possibly should have been considered. It wouldn't change things a ton, though, many of the characters who have good recovery are good at that, too.

 

[Paradoxium]

I don't know who the best is, but I'd think most would agree with me that they're still likely at least top 5ish. Incidentally, did you post somewhere who you think the best are in 3.02? I'd be curious to read your thoughts on the matter.

EDIT: Responding to other stuff on the page

Well my opinions are usually wrong lol, but the characters who i think have the potential to be the best are , , , ,,.

because he is a character with excellent running speed and safe shield pressure combined with high kill power. All 3 of those attributes combined make a very good character. But Fox is a fast faller, and his recovery is only decent. He still gets combo-ed and chain grabbed as well as gimped. Up smashes and up throws **** him over. There is also the fact that his lasers suck, so he cant camp you out anymore,so he basically has to go in and i dont think his nair is as effective as it was in melee. I don't think hes the best anymore but I'm not gonna ignore his offensive capabilities. So i believe in the possibility that he may still be the best.

Because he has speed, an excellent grab game, excellent recovery, and excellent disjoints. He would probably be the best if he had the ko power of fox, because from what I,ve seen and experienced that doesn't seem to be the case. But it doesnt matter because MK is like amazing. His attacks come out fairly quickly and are very useful.

mostly because of his movement, like 90% movement. Its like you cant even fight this character, you just have to predict when he will come in and just hope to god you guess right. He gets easy KOs, people say his weakness is in his kill power but i really don't see it. Hes got an excellent combo game as well.

amazing recovery, great projectiles, great kill power and kill set ups, odd floatyness(which is a pro and con), Zair (like really this move is cheap), and her up b oos. This is a character who can deal with pressure, rack up damage, kill, and recover. She just seems like a really good character, good enough to be the best.

when he came out in 2.5 we all new this would happen. A lot of us didn't even bother to play the character but we all new he would be really really good. He only kind of lacking in his recovery, which is still better than Fox's. I think his bananas combined with his movement and excellent attacks just allows him to lock down almost every option.

I don't think hes over rated. He has Safe pressure, excellent projectile game, multiple approach options, spike/meteor kills, regular ko power, a tether grab with a KO up throw, decent recovery, and that amazing combo game. People say he is over rated yet this character still has a lot of room to grow and develop.

Yea i know my post sound like some scrub who thinks he knows what hes talking about (which is kind of true), but i have a hard time trying to get my points across and i didnt really feel like going into immense detail about this whole thing. This is a pretty generic list, and i didnt put diddy up there because of all the recent diddy hype. And Im not to confident in Lucas, i mean hes good but is he that good. I think that he could be, he has all of the tools to do well, and i think his tools are better than like every other characters lol. Samus because i think that character is gahlike. Sonic because he is a character that is blown way out of smash proportions. Movement like that is insane. Even in 2.6 i thought he was good, because with movement like that you will always have a big advantage over most opponents. I actually put him as my solid #1. Yea thats right right, i think sonic is the best in the game. (But if Shadow was in the game he would beat the **** out of sonic) Metaknight is just very solid as well. A character with that kind of range and speed and grab is just an amazing combination. All of his moves are just perfect (Except for that super janky dair). And Fox because you know, 12 year meta game, fast, strong bla bla bla people dont wanna learn the match up bla bla bla... I actually think Fox's effectiveness is on a decline, because more people realize that the next patch isnt coming out anytime soon, so rather than crying about it on the tier list speculation thread they are learning the ****ing match up.

Yep there you have it, Paradoxium's stupid opinions.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You do realize if QD didn't make him helpless he could just do it again? Which would make his horizontal recovery completely psychotic.

 

[mimgrim]

You do realize if QD didn't make him helpless he could just do it again? Which would make his horizontal recovery completely psychotic.

Aren't there ways to make it where they don't go into helpless state but can only use it once in the air? Like Mewtwo's Teleport?

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Aren't there ways to make it where they don't go into helpless state but can only use it once in the air? Like Mewtwo's Teleport?

QD Nair follow ups...
QD Uair follow ups...
QD Dair follow ups...

As a former Ike main, pls no

 

[mimgrim]

QD Nair follow ups...
QD Uair follow ups...
QD Dair follow ups...

As a former Ike main, pls no

I wasn't trying to imply anything one way or another. :C

Just asking a question from a statement that I thought was possible to get around. :C

 

[GP&B]

Ike's got enough variance in recovery off of just QD alone between when you release, your control over it in the air (a huge factor in its effectiveness), and when you slash to end your momentum. I'd only argue that it feels like a horrible option to recover with Up B (and it probably is against a number of characters).

Ike's one of those sweetspot characters in PM that I feel needs next to zero changes besides maybe like... slight buffs to Eruption please?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I wasn't trying to imply anything one way or another. :C

Just asking a question from a statement that I thought was possible to get around. :C

I mean then it would be harder to edge-guard Ike, since edgehogging his Side-B is one of the principal ways to eff him over when he is knocked too far for a wall-jump.

I think *I* would call BS on being able to Aether after a QD, sorry, lol.

 

[trash?]

ike balance guide:

    is this 2.1?
  |              \
 yes               no
  |                   \
oh god run    okay we're good then

 

[Soft Serve]

ike balance guide:

    is this 2.1?
  |              \
yes               no
  |                   \
oh god run    okay we're good then

But you cant run from QD>Fair
thats the beauty of it

Also love to based @ Paradoxium for being one of the people to actually recognize that Diddy's recovery is lacking in everything that isn't distance.
I was playing with my friend Pat Combo at one of our tourneys, and in the middle of a friendly set (Diddy vs Kirby) he turns to me and says "I feel so bad for Diddy when he as to recover, it looks so painful" and I reply "its not that bad, I get a lot of distance." He then says, while edge guarding me "Yeah, but look how bad it is, you have to stall for a considerable time just to get any distance, and I can just throw out a bair above you and make you cry. Oh, you missed the sweetspot? Fsmash." I found it humorous that he picked apart the recovery's weekness within like a dozen matches, while it still gets so much hate.

Oh and Wario's recovery is pretty bad imo, minimal room for mix-ups, nearly no vertical, and all horizontal rely on his airspeed. Its like Jigggs with less jumps. Its not that its horrible, but When you're in a game where characters like DDD and Snake can GAIN height on shine spikes if Fox doesn't drop lower and lower from the ledge, flexibility in recovery doesn't look as intimidating as sheer survivability that some characters get.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Re: Diddy

Just grab the ****ing edge

Also PMBR nerf Sethlon plz

Edit: Nvm, nerf Pit instead.

 

[Cassio]

His recovery isnt among the best but itd be a nice exploit for the character rather than nerfing his good aspects. I wouldn't mind if that or his CG took a hit but I hope nothing else does.

The "pseudo-chaingrab" is a tech-chase regrab and it's possible with some characters to cover all the tech options on reaction, Okami being able to do it is no surprise since he mains Sheik in Melee who does the same thing. Several characters (MK, Sheik etc.) have throws that are similar.

Glad to know that is how it worked. Although I dont think the other tech chase throws are nearly as groan inducing since the throws will take you in one direction and so can techs. When you tech to the ledge with diddy hes just like "lolnope" and tosses you back into the stage.

 

[didds]

but Diddy's recovery is pretty amazing, I just think it probably has one of the highest learning curves as far as recoveries go. Ideally, especially when discussing a tier list, we want to assume the optimal play. It's hard as f to hit Diddy's sweet spot consistently, but it's not impossible. I like to think that in the future Diddy's will be more precise with recovering. Right now it seems like distance is all it has going for him, but two important things to note are his versatility with UpB angles, and his low end lag on stage. It's hard enough to cover a ledge sweetspot without having to worry about Diddy just pulling up slightly and nailing you with an enormous hitbox, and then having little lag to punish him with.

It's not gahlike, but I'd argue that it can get be pretty good once it's more refined. Hell, he can still even cover his recovery a bit by shooting off a peanut as he uses his double jump (not that this is exactly full proof lol).

I'd say that some of the salt is warranted. It's not the best or hardest to edgeguard, but it's definitely agitating.

And the rocket that launches upon hitting his UpB is silly and unnecessary imo

 

[NickLeo]

Can't say I'm speaking from a lot of experience in the matchup because I don't know too many experienced diddys,
but wouldn't a highly disjointed move like marth's fair just murder it? And now that I think about it, sheik's needles?

 

[Soft Serve]

Heres His up-b, because I love hitboxes and frame data.

Spoiler

Total: 61
Charge Frame: 7
Hits: 8-45 (meteor hit only active frame 8)
Landing Lag: 18
Damage: 5-19

The hitbox on it is tiny and only cover his legs. Considering most of the time Diddy will be going horizontally, any strong forward reaching move can easily hit his head/arms if timed properly. 18 frames of landing lag is deceivingly good, it is a long time but most of the time Diddy slides along the ground or platform cancels it so its not that long at all. It used to be a lot shorter, in 2.5 it had like 8 or so. Barrels seeking the oppponent when didy gets hit is BS though, I think everyone agrees on that.

 

[Cassio]

Yeah thats the main issue. Even if you hit diddy you cant always capitalize or can even end up screwed if you get hit after.

 

[didds]

Wow, I guess the hitbox seems bigger just based on the speed it reaches opponents.

Sheik needles kill me. Marth Fsmash kills everything, but can still be wiffed and stalled out.

Diddy's uncharged UpB has decent height, comes out fast, and isn't difficult to sweet spot so it's not like he's just a sitting duck charging his rocket pack all the time.

Oh and yea, rocket barrel projectile is definitely silly. I always wondered if the article could somehow be transferred to another character who could maybe use the projectile, but it may just be a pipe dream.

 

[Terotrous]

I mean then it would be harder to edge-guard Ike, since edgehogging his Side-B is one of the principal ways to eff him over when he is knocked too far for a wall-jump.

I think *I* would call BS on being able to Aether after a QD, sorry, lol.

Oh yeah, I don't deny that it'd be really strong, I was just explaining what it would take to move him to the highest tier. Honestly, if he actually had this, it'd have to be once per airtime, no airdodge afterwards, and it has some number of recovery frames at the end before he can take any action. That basically makes it a slightly weaker version of Mewtwo Teleport.

It's a big buff, but I don't think it would go beyond the current top tier. If we're really balancing around Fox / Mewtwo / Ivy level of strength, pretty much everyone would need some ridiculous tools.

 

[didds]

So grab edge, drop > nair destroys tethers in this game if you're playing the right character. Squirtle comes to mind as perfect in this small niche.

Armored and fairly short lasting nair, hits at a good angle when coming from above, and his huge double jump is nice for avoiding a last minute attempt at trying to take Squirtle down as well.

I know folks get frustrated with tether recoveries, but I find them pretty easy to edgeguard. Diddy also has a nice answer with grab edge, drop > rocket barrel meteor, and most rising aerial characters and just drop and rising nair as the opponent tries to pull up.