Tier List Speculation

[Bleck]

I think it's sad that Jigglypuff is destined to be such a boring, uninspired character because of people who are too scared/stubborn to see her change. She's a blemish on an otherwise creative and well designed game.

this is exactly how I feel about marth

 

[Ace55]

this is exactly how I feel about marth

What's wrong with Marth? Of all the old melee tops I like his design the most.

 

[FlamingForce]

Lool sing > rest would be so broken.

And that's coming from a jiggs player.

 

[Strong Badam]

What's wrong with Marth? Of all the old melee tops I like his design the most.

marth is by far the most well-designed character in the entirety of SSBM

 

[Bleck]

Marth has interesting tools, especially his specials, that should be a focal point of his game, but he instead gains a lot of binary strength via attacks that are zealously powerful.

In any fighting game, a normal attack should have strengths in two of four attributes - speed (how fast hitboxes occur/travel), range (the size of hitboxes and/or the distance they cover), strength (the amount of "damage" an attack does) and combo-ability (how well the attack leads into other attacks). Special moves should be good in three of those attributes, as well as having an attribute that makes that move something other than a normal physical attack (a grab, a projectile, a dash, etc). Anything that's good in all of those areas is poorly designed, in my opinion.

When you consider the normal attacks of characters in the game, even characters who were widely considered to be better than him in Melee, only a handful of their moves could be described as breaking this qualification, whereas I'd say that most of - if not all of - Marth's attacks could be quantified as such. His attacks all have enormous (and disjointed, an important distinction in Smash specifically) hitboxes, they all come out extremely quickly, they're all good combo starters and are all strong enough to be good combo finishers. I'm fairly certain that Marth is widely considered to be very easy to pick up and play at a relatively high level of play - this is because he has virtually no weaknesses. The only thing that Marth can't do well is harass at long range, due to lack of a projectile, and deal with projectiles himself, which arguably doesn't even matter since his Melee matchups are all pretty much in his favor regardless.

Add onto that that his neutral, side and down special moves have very clear uses cases that they just suck at (Dancing Blade kind of stinks as a "flowing combo" move and you only really see it used for the spike or for the weird floatiness it gives in recovery, Shield Breaker doesn't actually do enough shield damage to justify using it in any situation where you could have forward smash instead, and Counter works well as a parry but also automatically adds in a hard-to-follow riposte that makes the move relatively unsatisfying to use), and yeah. I think Marth is a pretty boring and poorly designed character.

 

[Deleted member]

But aren't fox/falco well designed? What about sheik?
Yknow, free pressure and some inescapable followups/CGs?

Thats what the people want right?

 

[Bleck]

I think the Melee incarnations of Fox, Falco and Shiek are also relatively poorly designed, but not for the same reasons. Same deal with pretty much anyone higher than Dr. Mario on the Melee tier list, and also a significant number of characters below that line.

 

[NWRL]

Okay, can someone give me the justification for Lucas having two kill throws?

Not really ******** but it seems like a bit much with all of the tools he has.

 

[Saproling]

I think Yoshi should get a tether and a zair.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I think people should stop making gameplay suggestions and blanket statements without any sort of backup or thought put into what they said.

Like, just look at Bleck, I don't agree with him at all but he reasoned his argument very well.

 

[Saproling]

Yoshis recovery is pretty bad. You can look at Lucas and see he has a tether and his up B yet nobody really complains about it.Lucas can even stall much better than Yoshi and combo much better than Yoshi. So give Yoshi a tether and then he will have his armor on the second jump.I think giving him some more options on how to recover will be good for him.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yoshis recovery is pretty bad. You can look at Lucas and see he has a tether and his up B yet nobody really complains about it.Lucas can even stall much better than Yoshi and combo much better than Yoshi. So give Yoshi a tether and then he will have his armor on the second jump.I think giving him some more options on how to recover will be good for him.

And you say this with little tournament experience with and about a character who was only released in the most recent version of a very new game - four months or so ago, to be exact - who hasn't been extensively explored by several high level players, without fully considering how his on-stage presence and strengths could be good enough to out-weigh his poor recovery; there are various characters who are already proven viable and more even with bad recovery potential.

That isn't good enough grounds to suggest a massive recovery buff, I don't think.

 

[NWRL]

No more Yoshi. Why does Lucas have a kill throw, let alone two.

 

[CyberZixx]

Because he stole the one Pikachu was supposed to get.

 

[Saproling]

He wont get much tourney experience with his recovery the only reason people use Falco is because he is developed from melee.Sure things will develop but the only thing I see better about Yoshi than falco about on stage is his ability to do damage upwards.Most of the people playing Falco just come from Melee people wont pick up Yoshi much with the way he is I feel and improving him some will help him be explored if they find big strengths in that they can adjust him downwards in next version to make a good well rounded character.Instead of him always having a huge chink in his armor that never gets played around with.I think Yoshi could use some on stage possibly throw buffs but I cant suggest anything worthwhile there.

Also yes Lucas has too many options IMO.

 

[Deleted member]

I think people should stop making gameplay suggestions and blanket statements without any sort of backup or thought put into what they said.

Like, just look at Bleck, I don't agree with him at all but he reasoned his argument very well.

pretty much, i disagreed with literally that entire post but at least he has good rationale to it.

frankly, the marth players have good reason to be depressed about his matchups. the more you understand the game the more depressing it is. tbh playing any character that loses to ivysaur = you're going to be pissed at every tournament.

 

[Axrz]

Why is Lucas having two kill throws an issue?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Yes, Lucas is broken, please nerf Lucas.

 

[Deleted member]

2 kill throws isn't really an issue.

However lucas is broken because he's designed like a spacie, and spacies are badly designed (But the original spacies can stay spacies because pmbr is too scared to do anything)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

He wont get much tourney experience with his recovery the only reason people use Falco is because he is developed from melee.

This is an absolutely baseless claim which cannot have any evidence to back it up. Many factors go into why players pick certain characters or not, such as preference, playstyles and others. Perceived viability is only one such factor, and not everyone takes it into account. The main reason Yoshi isn't developed yet is because this game has 41 characters, all of which are ripe for experimentation and exploration. If it had anything to do with Melee, Samus would be more used than she is now, but she too must wait for the player(s) that will develop her P:M metagame and unlock her potential. (Tangent: Which is high. Samus I'm certain is at least high tier.) There is no reason to demand buffs for a character that has barely been touched.

I think it should be considered that Lucas' design lacks true drawbacks. (The number of kill throws he has is not something to focus on. You could take away his back throw and not affect how the Lucas mains play at all.) Diddy is aggravating, but not scary once people learn item counterplay (challenging a Diddy main at items is difficult, but it's a skill players of this game will need to pick up) and his recovery is quite punishable. Frankly Luke's comparison to the spacies is not entirely a good thing.

 

[NWRL]

Lucas has way too many options and has tons of safe on shield options. Which is something that PMBR has nerfed characters heavily for in the past. (Ike)

 

[Deleted member]

Ike wasn't nerfed because he was too safe on shield. Pretty sure it was some other stuff.

Also spacies exist, so "too safe on shield" isn't a thing. Also "too many options" also isn't a thing because of spacies...

 

[NWRL]

Ike wasn't nerfed because he was too safe on shield. Pretty sure it was some other stuff.

Also spacies exist, so "too safe on shield" isn't a thing. Also "too many options" also isn't a thing because of spacies...

he was nerfed because of being safe on shield and not having a proper tipper system

Too many options isn't a thing, sure. but having too many strong options definitely is.

 

[Deleted member]

Too many strong options is kind of vague
Do you mean moves with high knockback? Do you mean moves that cover all options? Cause if its either of those then no, too many strong options isn't a thing.

 

[DMG]

He means that if Sonic could Triple Omega Moonblade into a Grande Gordita Chalupa Burrito Slam Jam, you might get better results if you just gave him a ridiculously OP sword or grab or Usmash

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

He means that if Sonic could Triple Omega Moonblade into a Grande Gordita Chalupa Burrito Slam Jam, you might get better results if you just gave him a ridiculously OP sword or grab or Usmash

Do you have a Twitter

 

[DMG]

I don't, but my good friend Lamar the Olimar can be found @LamarTheOlimar

 

[GP&B]

Ike was changed because he was rather mindless despite having flaws. Also ridiculous things like infinite QD walljumps and Eruption meteor being god tier.

 

[Deleted member]

Dude, she has a one hit KO move... Of all the characters you really shouldn't give a 'free hit' move I think she tops my list.

Imo sing -> rest being a common thing would be a blemish on an otherwise creative and well designed game.

Dude, you're seriously going to try countering my argument about Jigglypuff having a ****ty design by bringing up REST as your defense? Lmao.

Notice how I never said that I think Sing -> Rest should be a thing. The whole character needs major work. Rest is is part of the problem. That move is idiotic beyond belief.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Dude, you're seriously going to try countering my argument about Jigglypuff having a ****ty design by bringing up REST as your defense? Lmao.

Rest is part of the problem. That move is idiotic beyond belief.

I don't think he ever said anything about Jigglypuff having a ****ty design. I think he was just disagreeing that sing should be buffed while she still has rest, because it would obviously be stupid.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Oh so I don't voice these opinions often, but here's my bombs for the thread.

Mario and Link are fine, and they do not need nerfs. They possess a good balance of weaknesses and drawbacks to ameliorate their potent combo/zoning/what have you. If you want their respective projectiles toned down ... ehhhhhhhhh maybe sure if you really think it's too much (FALCO LASERS, I CAN NO LONGER PHRASE THIS IN A WITTY MANNER, ****ING FALCO LASERS.) but that's it. That's where it ends. No "Ike slows down his tilts aerials Aether height reduced Side Smash now kills at 180% he loses a stock at beginning of match his sword is now paper" 2.1 -> 2.5 style nerfs, okay.

Zelda is better than people give her credit for, and more offensive less/boring too. I think Zhime represents her really well, (KDJ is not quite as amazing with Zelda as NZA says, sorry, but he does do well with her too) and it is unfair to demand changes of her because low/mid level players play her linearly. If anything, she needs mobility touch-ups and buffs so she struggles less to capitalize on her openings. Frankly, deriding Zelda's playstyle of stuffing approaches, causing mistakes and punishing slip-ups and over-extensions as boring/annoying/'non-Smash' in the same thread that Diddy's design is praised to high heaven is hypocritical as hell. Din's Fire also appears to be a poor tool in neutral/is not a good tool for zoning, or an effective projectile, but is very potent at pressing the advantage as when the opponent is offstage, tech chase scenarios and the like. Zhime's Bar Wars footage showcases her strengths really well, and if anything they ought to be complemented rather than redesigned. Zelda is a very unique and interesting character, and we need more of that flavor in Project M.

And Jigglypuff sucks in every sense of the word, not the least of which is her core design. She was a joke character, she shouldn't be expected to thrive in a healthy metagame.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think he ever said anything about Jigglypuff having a ****ty design. I think he was just disagreeing that sing should be buffed while she still has rest, because it would obviously be stupid.

Well it's a good thing I never said that. Read more closely.

 

[JOE!]

@ Thane of Blue Flames , Boomerang is still goofy lol. And to think it has the best projectile: Link

 

[NWRL]

Too many strong options is kind of vague
Do you mean moves with high knockback? Do you mean moves that cover all options? Cause if its either of those then no, too many strong options isn't a thing.

No. Let's take Lucas for an example, since I was already commenting on him.

He has:
Insane shield pressure
Great mobility
Solid recovery
Strong aerial priority
Two spikes/meteors (bair, dair)
Strong projectile
Tether grab
Kill throws
Shine
Quick kill moves on ground

Not to mention some wonky interactions with certain characters (Dair on DDD onstage)

I understand that the PMBR wants to give characters tools to deal with most situations, but it seems to me personally that he has way too many options for what his weaknesses are.

Especially when you compare his options to someone like Olimar, Ganon, or Bowser.

 

[DMG]

Remember, most changes to Fireball or Boomerang wouldn't be on the projectile itself. Changes to those moves will probably be on cooldowns. Buffing those areas (at least by this significant of a margin), as we can obviously see now, was a huge no-no. It's kind of the same deal with Ness, but he has the drawback of being an otherwise poopie character in Neutral if PK fire wasn't that good.

You're right about changing more core aspects of those characters though. Most people aren't calling for nerfed Link Smashes or reduced Fair power on Mario etc. What you have to question though, is why buff both areas of a character if one area is ideally supplemental to the character? Mario probably did not need or deserve a better projectile, with the buffs to attacks/recovery/etc he got. Link on the other hand, is kind of a projectile guru. It makes sense for him to maybe have better projectiles than before. So why so much love for him on the non projectile end? You end up with a risky balancing act.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You're right about changing more core aspects of those characters though. Most people aren't calling for nerfed Link Smashes or reduced Fair power on Mario etc. What you have to question though, is why buff both areas of a character if one area is ideally supplemental to the character? Mario probably did not need or deserve a better projectile, with the buffs to attacks/recovery/etc he got. Link on the other hand, is kind of a projectile guru. It makes sense for him to maybe have better projectiles than before. So why so much love for him on the non projectile end? You end up with a risky balancing act.

Right, it's tricky to get the balance right. Link can fill the space between you and him with things zooming at your head or stuff that'll hurt you if you step in it, and he needs to be able to capitalize off that. Unless y'all want his arrow to kill at 90% he's going to need some good kill options to make something of his zoning game, but then you run the risk of Link becoming Ike x Marth's love child who happened across Bomber Man's pants one day. It's easy to overkill. That said, presently they've done a good job with Link's jumpsquat, start-up on his aerials and punishability on grab and Up-B (shield, drop, get a beverage, charge your Smash, sip as Link goes on a trip to the top left corner.) I can see the argument that Link's boomerang is too effective at ranges where his space is supposed to have been invaded, but the move is sound in function and intent and needs to retain its purpose without putting in extra work. I'm not fully convinced that it does put in that extra work because you could finance Dubai with the Link Salt Mines, but Boomerang getting the Razor Leaf treatment wouldn't be a severe disservice to the Link mains. (*Looks pointedly at Ike's Nair changelog*) Link's a good character who controls a torus around him and gets severely effed once you punch through. The potency of his control and the rewards of his spacing game should stay, no matter how much people prefer Wolverines to Morrigans.

On Mario, Fireball is probably the only crutch he can prop his major flaw on: Reach. He doesn't have Lucas' sparking bling at the end of his limbs, or his movement to mediate his stubby arm syndrome. Once again, the argument could be made that Mario's various strengths: Good SHFF speed, large (slow and linear) recovery distance, odd combo weight and fallspeed, above-average movement, good mix of combo and kill moves that link well - all these support him well enough that he shouldn't be able to flip a switch and turn into a zoning character, or have Fireball be safe enough to confirm into anything in close quarters. Frankly, we haven't seen Marios crack open any scenes like the Rise of the Planet of Diddys, or the Wolfpack in Chicago, and Fireball doesn't seem like a overpowering or stifling enough option, to convince me that Fireball needs to be messed with. Even though there's a lot of Doc to build off of, the thing is we haven't seen viable characters of this style, in this sort of engine before. (Brawl's vegetable and fruit flinging top tiers dominate a completely different game.) There's a lot of gut reaction that comes with the perceived safety of a well-played zoning that makes the outcry far out of proportion with the reality. These guys still need to simmer, and I think when we give them that chance they're not going to be much worse than fine.

Point being, I think these tools they have don't make them masters of everything, regardless of how it can seem that way. That's Fox.

 

[Hulter]

I think Marth's, Roy's and Ike's down Bs should be jump cancellable to make them more viable as means of punishment and possible to follow up. Why not the sword dances as well while we're at? And then nerf the dumb ****, because I agree with bleck.

 

[Saproling]

This is an absolutely baseless claim which cannot have any evidence to back it up. Many factors go into why players pick certain characters or not, such as preference, playstyles and others. Perceived viability is only one such factor, and not everyone takes it into account. The main reason Yoshi isn't developed yet is because this game has 41 characters, all of which are ripe for experimentation and exploration. If it had anything to do with Melee, Samus would be more used than she is now, but she too must wait for the player(s) that will develop her P:M metagame and unlock her potential. (Tangent: Which is high. Samus I'm certain is at least high tier.) There is no reason to demand buffs for a character that has barely been touched.

Yet the most played characters are the ones most people would say are on the higher half on the tier lists so yes being able to look at a character and see what they are blatantly capable of do matter in finding out more about the character faster.Im not saying there isn't a lot to be explored with every character but saying its pointless is just stupid many people will play a higher end character because its nice to win and wont touch or play around with a character like Yoshi even close to the same amount.These things matter in how a meta will be shaped until it reaches its peak and since were in the middle of it I think it only makes sense to view it that way.Unto Samus theres still no reason to play her when all she got was a ****ty gimmicky move swap which doesn't do her justice I can also mention changes to how tethers work from Melee along with what.Yes people will play some Yoshi but his recovery will still turn many people away from him and having something so important be so terrible to being successful isn't fair to the idea of overall balance in the game, if thats what they are truly going for this needs addressed and a mediocre tether would be a good way to address the issue(at least as a start).

 

[DMG]

3.5b

Yoshi can now tether to the stage with Neutral B

????

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yes people will play some Yoshi but his recovery will still turn many people away from him

Your opinion isn't fact. Don't expect anyone to treat it as such.